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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006The origin of the name Ramada Hotel
I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or not. I am just curious. Craig "Craig" writes: > I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or > not. Not according to the American Heritage Dictionary: <http://www.bartleby.com/61/11/R0031175.html>  SignatureMark Brader "Those who do not understand UNIX Toronto are condemned to reinvent it." msb@vex.net -- Henry Spencer >"Craig" writes: >> I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or >> not. > >Not according to the American Heritage Dictionary: ><http://www.bartleby.com/61/11/R0031175.html> Perhaps the question is whether the name of the Ramada hotels did not come from *that* "ramada"? But, while we're talking about "Ramadan", I wonder how many others here are familiar with the variant spelling "Ramazan", which arose because the Arabic "emphatic d" is pronounced in some countries as a "z". FitzGerald's _Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam_ contains the lines "Listen again. One Evening at the Close / Of Ramazán, ere the better Moon arose": for some reason, "Ramazán" apparently scans as a two-syllable word here. daniel mcgrath SignatureDaniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com" Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.] > On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:15:24 -0000, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Perhaps the question is whether the name of the Ramada hotels did not > come from *that* "ramada"? <...> Right. That's one theory, but there's no proof. Besides, ramada is a perfectly good Arabic word and everybody knows most of the remarkable words in Spanish come from Arabic anyway. >>> Not according to the American Heritage Dictionary: >>> <http://www.bartleby.com/61/11/R0031175.html> >> Perhaps the question is whether the name of the Ramada hotels did not >> come from *that* "ramada"? <...> > Right. That's one theory, but there's no proof. Eh? Reputable dictionaries are not supposed to make statements like that without good evidence. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "My ambition is to see a saying of mine attributed msb@vex.net | to Dorothy Parker or Mark Twain." -- Joe Fineman >> "Craig" writes: >>> I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > daniel mcgrath OED has Ramazan as a variant from as early as 1599 and as recent as 1971. Ramadan doesn't appear until 1695 (earlier it was Romadan) They explain the variations as arising from ramadan being an Arabic transliteration while ramazan is Turkish and Persian. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford I would like to explain why I raised this question. On the way back home from New Orleans last week, our airplane (American Airline) was late. So we lost the connection to go home The AA put us (and others) to Ramada Hotel in North Dallas. That prompted me whether Ramada Hotel was started and owned by a rich and famous Muslin or not. Regards, Craig >I would like to explain why I raised this question. >On the way back home from New Orleans last week, our airplane (American [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >That prompted me whether Ramada Hotel was started and owned by a rich and >famous Muslin or not. I didn't know there *were* any rich and famous cloths. I stayed at a Ramada (in Manchester) a few years ago. The rooms were huge. The bathroom was larger than most hotel rooms I've been in. The most striking feature, though, was that the bathrooms were each fully equipped with a rubber duck. Luxury! SignatureGraeme Thomas >>I would like to explain why I raised this question. >>On the way back home from New Orleans last week, our airplane (American [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > most striking feature, though, was that the bathrooms were each fully > equipped with a rubber duck. Luxury! I was once on an interview panel appointing the university librarian. The candidate I favoured told us she had been on a customer care course where much attention had been paid to the improved profitability of an international hotel chain which had equipped its bathrooms in this way - an apparently small innovation but with far-reaching and very positive consequences, it seemed. She had been very impressed by this and even brought a little yellow plastic duck with her to illustrate the point. The professor of sociology dripped scorn as he said he could see no role for ducks in the library and asked if she was perhaps proposing to offer a free gift with every book borrowed. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) [...] > > I stayed at a Ramada (in Manchester) a few years ago. The rooms were > > huge. The bathroom was larger than most hotel rooms I've been in. The > > most striking feature, though, was that the bathrooms were each fully > > equipped with a rubber duck. Luxury! I find it very ObAUE that people are still calling them "rubber" ducks: I can't remember the last time I saw one that wasn't made of plastic. > I was once on an interview panel appointing the university librarian. > The candidate I favoured told us she had been on a customer care course [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > for ducks in the library and asked if she was perhaps proposing to offer > a free gift with every book borrowed. Interviews go like that sometimes: however meticulously you plan, you can get flustered into forgetting key points. In fact, the sociologue's hostile intervention caused the poor candidate to dry up at the point where she'd intended to use the toy as a striking illustration of her devotion to one particular system of book classification. SignatureMike. > [...] >>> I stayed at a Ramada (in Manchester) a few years ago. The rooms [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > illustration of her devotion to one particular system of book > classification. Somebody should have asked why she didn't have just one ear in the middle of her face. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >[...] >> > I stayed at a Ramada (in Manchester) a few years ago. The rooms were [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >I find it very ObAUE that people are still calling them "rubber" ducks: >I can't remember the last time I saw one that wasn't made of plastic. For my part I use "rubber duck" because of the line from H2G2: "One is never alone with a rubber duck." But it is certainy true that the rubber ducks at the Ramada Hotel in Manchester were made from plastic. The duck in my bathroom sat in a little wooden nestbox, which had a sign affixed that asked guests not to steal the duck. Other ducks were available from reception, at some nominal price. ObGreatBathroomDisasters: My parents were once staying in a Ramada Hotel, and my mother decided to have a bath. Amongst the supplies provided by the management was a vial of bubble-bath, so she poured that in the water. Later, her curiosity led her to push a button located on the side of the bath; it turned out that this activated the Jacuzzi. She soon discovered that bubble-baths and Jacuzzis don't mix well, as the bubbles quickly overflowed the bath. By the time she'd managed to call my father for assistance the bubbles had filled the bathroom. SignatureGraeme Thomas >> I would like to explain why I raised this question. >> On the way back home from New Orleans last week, our airplane [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I didn't know there *were* any rich and famous cloths. Well, OED says damask is "A rich silk fabric" and I'd hazard it's very well known. Now yer cloth of gold ... (But I'll concede the IMDb entries for Jay Cloth (Jay Cloth - arf!), Sherwyn Cloth and Frédéric Cloth suggest they haven't been around long enough or done enough work to make their fortunes and I certainly hadn't heard of them). Clotho was famous but impoverished. Clothilde was, of course, no better than she should be. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >"Craig" writes: > >> I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "z". FitzGerald's _Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam_ contains the lines > "Listen again. One Evening at the Close / Of Ramazán, ere the better Ramazan is the turkish spelling, ramaza:n the persian pronounciation. D was originally a lateral interdental voiced fricative (notice spanish alcalde from arabic al-qa:Di:) . in most arab dialects and in modern standard arabic it is an emphatic d (D). in others it is an emphatic voiced interdental fricative, and in persian and turkish rendered as z > Moon arose": for some reason, "Ramazán" apparently scans as a > two-syllable word here. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > & periodic bouts of depression. > [This signature is under construction.] > > >"Craig" writes: > > >> I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > D was originally a lateral interdental voiced fricative (notice spanish rather: emphatic lateral voiced interdental fricative. > alcalde from arabic > al-qa:Di:) . in most arab dialects and in modern standard arabic it is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > daniel mcgrath >"Craig" writes: >> I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or >> not. > >Not according to the American Heritage Dictionary: ><http://www.bartleby.com/61/11/R0031175.html> Down here in these parts we don't even wonder about it. We have ramadas everywhere. The shelters in the city parks that have the picnic tables under them are called ramadas, and if you reserve one it is called, say, "Ramada No 14". ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. > This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. > I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or > not. > I am just curious. Craig <http://hotelfranchise.cendant.com/our_brands/ramada/history.cfm> tells us that > The Ramada brand began in 1954 when a group of investors opened the > first Inn in Flagstaff, AZ--the first in a series of "motor hotels." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > countries. Today, Ramada Worldwide is committed to providing excellent > service, terrific value and a superior hotel experience. The SOED5 has "ramada" as an English word, derived from Spanish: > ramada, noun. > /r@"mA;d@/ > US. M19. > [Spanish.] > An arbour, a porch. The AHD4 derives the Spanish word from Latin: > ETYMOLOGY: Spanish, from rama, branch, from Vulgar Latin *rma, from Latin rmus. See ramify. > REGIONAL NOTE: One of the words Spanish contributed to the English of > the American Southwest is ramada, a term for an open shelter roofed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > have remained a relatively obscure regional word were it not for its > adoption in the name of a national chain of motels. While "Ramadan" has a completely different root: > Ramadan, noun. > /"ram@dan, ram@"dan/ > Also Ramadhan, Ramazan, /-zan/. L15. > [Arab. rama,Qn (whence Persian ramaNQn, Turkish ramazàn), from rami,a be parched or hot: reason for the name is uncertain.] > The ninth month of the year in the Islamic calendar, during which Muslims observe strict fasting between dawn and sunset. >I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. >This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. >I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or >not. >I am just curious. Craig According to wikipedia, it's from Spanish, meaning "shady resting place". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramada SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. >>This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > According to wikipedia, it's from Spanish, meaning "shady resting > place". Like one of those motels with hourly rates... SignatureBlinky RLU 297263 Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html >>I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. This seems to be >>a very important holiday for Muslims. I wonder whether RAMADA of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramada That's a bit of a stretch. A "ramada" is, as near as I can tell from the DRAE definition, a dense canopy arising from intertwined branches: 1. f. Conjunto de ramas de árboles espesas y entrelazadas naturalmente. or a similar man-made canopy: 2. f. Adorno formado de ramas de árboles con motivo de alguna fiesta. 3. f. Cobertizo hecho de ramas de árboles. It may well make a shady resting place, but that's not what it means. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Just sit right back 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | and you'll hear a tale, Palo Alto, CA 94304 | a tale of the Stanford red |That started when a little boy kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | named Leland did drop dead (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] > > According to wikipedia, it's from Spanish, meaning "shady resting > > place". [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > It may well make a shady resting place, but that's not what it means. (Maybe _fiesta_ was a typo for _siesta_!) So I'd have said "bower", then. But the Bantam New College S&E Dictionary says no: for "bower" it gives _emparrado_ and one of several senses of _glorieta_. It has no entry for _ramada_. SignatureMike. >[...] >> > According to wikipedia, it's from Spanish, meaning "shady resting [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >gives _emparrado_ and one of several senses of _glorieta_. It has no >entry for _ramada_. My paperback University of Chicago S-E/E-S dictionary has ramada as "branches; foliage; arbor; American: shed, tent." That's in the S-E section. It doesn't appear in the E-S section, although it's certainly now an English word here in the desert Southwest. Can't say I've ever heard a shed or a tent referred to as a "ramada", though. Around here it's a roof supprted by four columns or posts at the corners, and the roof may be almost anything from canvas to sheet metal to palm fronds. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > [...] >>> According to wikipedia, it's from Spanish, meaning "shady resting [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > "bower" it gives _emparrado_ and one of several senses of > _glorieta_. It has no entry for _ramada_. Real Academia gives: "ramada. 1. f. ramaje.* 2. f. enramada (? cobertizo de ramas). U. m. en América. *ramaje. 1. m. Conjunto de ramas o ramos." "Enramada" is what I remember hearing in Latin America. As far as the fiesta/siesta dilemma is concerned, I recall a Paraguayan song called "Galopera" that seems to lean towards the festive: "De bajo de la enramada, esta forma da la rueda/ Y salen las galoperas, la galopa a bailar ...". >>> That's a bit of a stretch. A "ramada" is, as near as I can tell >>> from the DRAE definition, a dense canopy arising from intertwined [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>> It may well make a shady resting place, but that's not what it >>> means. [snip] > Real Academia gives: > "ramada. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "Enramada" is what I remember hearing in Latin America. I probably should have made it clear that the senses I quoted above are the ones they give for "enramada", since that was given as a synonym. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It can't affect you unless you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |install Windows, and who would be |foolish enough to do that? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Peter Moylan (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> That's a bit of a stretch. A "ramada" is, as near as I can tell >>>> from the DRAE definition, a dense canopy arising from intertwined [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > are the ones they give for "enramada", since that was given as a > synonym. I've been trying to think of a phrase I read in one of Tony Hillerman's mystery novels ever since this thread began. "Brush arbor", I think it was; maybe that would be the closrst English equivalent of (en)ramada. I was going to go on to speculate that the term was coined to describe a feature of Amerindian life, but this feature seems to be more widely (CommitteE: "widelier") distributed: http://www.matthewsfarmmuseum.org/brush%20arbor.jpg . >>>I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. This seems to be >>>a very important holiday for Muslims. I wonder whether RAMADA of [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >It may well make a shady resting place, but that's not what it means. But, of course, that's why they make ramadas in the first place. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. > This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. > I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or > not. > I am just curious. Craig hardly. ramaDa:n comes from rama:D "scorching heat" . at a time when the lunar calendar was intercalated, ramaDa:n fell during summer. > > I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. > > This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > hardly. ramaDa:n comes from rama:D "scorching heat" . at a time when sorry should be ramaD . rama:d means ash. neither fits. > the lunar calendar was intercalated, ramaDa:n fell during summer. Yusuf B Gursey (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <1161375815.670313.184460@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>: >> I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. >> This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > hardly. ramaDa:n comes from rama:D "scorching heat" . at a time when > the lunar calendar was intercalated, ramaDa:n fell during summer. Is it true that the Muslim calendar was deliberately desynchronised from the seasons so that all pagan seasonal festivals would be forgotten? SignatureWarning: keel away from child for hot bulb Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > Yusuf B Gursey (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message > <1161375815.670313.184460@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com>: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Is it true that the Muslim calendar was deliberately desynchronised from the > seasons so that all pagan seasonal festivals would be forgotten? one possible reason is that so that the pilgrimage, practiced by muslims and pagans won't coincide. but that is still speculation. > -- > Warning: keel away from child for hot bulb > > Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. > This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. > I wonder whether RAMADA of the name "Ramada hotel" came from ramadan or > not. > I am just curious. Craig No. "Ramada" is border Spanish for breezeway or arbor, the ramada being a key element of early Southwestern architecture, also known as the "dog trot." It's from the Spanish "rama" meaning branch, and utimately from Latin (not Moorish) roots which also gave rise to English words such as "ramification" (originally, a branching out). SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> You see things and you say Why? But I dream things that never were; and I say Why not? --George Bernard Shaw Lars Eighner (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <slrnejidfq.1l6.usenet@goodwill.larseighner.com>: >> I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. >> This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. A period of fasting can hardly be termed a "holiday". > which also gave rise to English words > such as "ramification" (originally, a branching out). In work we use the word to mean the installation of more memory into a computer. SignatureWarning: keel away from child for hot bulb Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > > I learned that Ramadan holiday starts nest Monday. > > This seems to be a very important holiday for Muslims. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > from Latin (not Moorish) roots which also gave rise to English words > such as "ramification" (originally, a branching out). * And the expression "Rama lama ding dong", which mean branching *way* out. (From, I think, "Animal House".) earle * [ramada ramification] > And the expression "Rama lama ding dong", which mean branching *way* > out. > > (From, I think, "Animal House".) Must have been well before that: Who put the bomp in the bomp-a-bomp-a-bomp Who put the ram in the ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong ... Barry Mann, in 1961. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Put_the_Bomp_%28song%29 > [ramada ramification] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Put_the_Bomp_%28song%29 I experienced "Rama lama ding dong" well before 1961, even before 1959 (Edsels), if I remember correctly. There was some nonsense about a polka-dot bikini at about the same time, I think. Same era as "Behind The Green Door" or a little later? SignatureFrank ess Frank ess filted: >I experienced "Rama lama ding dong" well before 1961, even before 1959 >(Edsels), if I remember correctly. There was some nonsense about a >polka-dot bikini at about the same time, I think. Same era as "Behind >The Green Door" or a little later? "Rama", "Bomp" and "Bikini" were all 1960 give or take a year...Jim Lowe went behind the "Green Door" in 1956, but Marilyn Chambers didn't get there until 1972....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Frank ess filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >behind the "Green Door" in 1956, but Marilyn Chambers didn't get there until >1972....r Until I looked it up I'd have thought that "Bikini" was from that period of the early 1950s when some really daft songs were in the hit parade. Remember "How much is that doggy in the window (wuff wuff) "The one with the waggerly tail (wuff wuff)..." 1953 and one I can't find in Google - maybe it was UK only? "On the baby's bottom or the baby's knee "Where will the baby's dimple be?" ... (Abject apologies, Laura.) SignatureRobin Herts, England >>Frank ess filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>behind the "Green Door" in 1956, but Marilyn Chambers didn't get there until >>1972....r Frankie Vaughan sang about the green door in 1956 too. An article in the Guardian purports to reveal where it was and what was behind it: http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1866720,00.html > Until I looked it up I'd have thought that "Bikini" was from that > period of the early 1950s when some really daft songs were in the hit [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > ... > (Abject apologies, Laura.) Yes, well.. You've left out "She wears red feathers and a hula hula skirt" SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >Frankie Vaughan sang about the green door in 1956 too. An article in the >Guardian purports to reveal where it was and what was behind it: > >http://arts.guardian.co.uk/features/story/0,,1866720,00.html Odd that the Wikipedia article on the Gateways club never mentions it being the Green Door, although it does mention the filming of "Sister George" there. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >> Frankie Vaughan sang about the green door in 1956 too. An article in >> the Guardian purports to reveal where it was and what was behind it: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > mentions it being the Green Door, although it does mention the > filming of "Sister George" there. I did a bit of digging around when I first saw that Guardian article and I'm inclined to think it's a bit of fanciful imagining. The song seems to have originated in the USA with no reason to believe it had anything to do with lesbian clubs or that the "Joe" who sent me was Joe Meek. The lyricist was Marvin Moore who, AFAIK, was a straight American. And you wanna know what else the green door could be? Ask Mr Safire and those who live to correct him: http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0408a&L=ads-l&P=746 "'Suppose you should be walking down Broadway after dinner. . . . Suddenly a hand is laid upon your arm. You turn to look into the thrilling eyes of a beautiful woman, wonderful in diamonds and Russian sables. She thrusts hurriedly into your hand an extremely hot buttered roll, flashes out a tiny pair of scissors, snips off the second button of your overcoat, meaningly ejaculates the one word, 'parallelogram!' and swiftly flies down a cross street, looking back fearfully over her shoulder. That would be pure adventure. Would you accept it?'' The theme of the O. Henry short story is the need to open the colorful portal to the twin spirits of Romance and Adventure, which a century of novelists idealized in tales of espionage and today's real-life spies have made part of their lingo. Get a copy in your library or read it on the Web at http://www.gutenberg.net/etext01/4milln10.txt. The title of the story is ''The Green Door.'' " "All good, except "green door" had been used in several stories before this that were well-known. (PROQUEST HISTORICAL NEWSPAPERS) THE LITTLE GREEN DOOR; PART I PART. II PART III. MARY E WILKINS. Chicago Daily Tribune (1872-1963) (OK, I'll end the suspense. Behind the little green door are tzatzkas from the past--ed.)" Several other works are referenced. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >and one I can't find in Google - maybe it was UK only? >"On the baby's bottom or the baby's knee >"Where will the baby's dimple be?" Found by The Google: (Searched for <Where will the baby's dimple be>) http://www.rosemaryclooney.com/LyricPages/wherewilldimplebe.html WHERE WILL THE DIMPLE BE? (composer/songwriter : Bob Merrill/Al Hoffman / Publishers : Cinephonic Music Co. Ltd. Highest Position : #4 Weeks on chart : 24. Recorded : January 13, 1955) (Chorus) On the baby's knockle, on the baby's knee Where will the baby's dimple be? Baby's cheek or baby's chin Seems to me it'll be a sin if it's always covered by the safety-pin Where will the dimple be ? Every night we stay at home, my love and me alone making wishes over dishes in the sink Will our bundle full of joy be a darling girl or boy? Will the booties be a baby blue or pink? (Chorus) ... &c. "Knockle" is unknown to OneLook.com but Google finds some pages (possibly in AmE) where it appears to be an alternative spelling of "Knuckle". To my ears it sounded as though Rosemary Clooney sang "knuckle". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> Frank ess filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "Where will the baby's dimple be?" > ... George Clooney's auntie: http://lyricsplayground.com/alpha/songs/w/wherewillthedimplebe.shtml On the baby's knuckle, on the baby's knee Where will the baby's dimple be? Baby's cheek or baby's chin Seems to me it'll be a sin If it's always covered by the safety-pin Where will the dimple be ? Then there's Oooooh! Twenty tiny fingers, twenty tiny toes Two angel faces, each with a turned up nose One looks like mummy, with a cute little curl on top And the other one's got a big bald spot Exactly like his pop, pop, pop, SignatureJohn Dean Oxford Robin Bignall filted: >Until I looked it up I'd have thought that "Bikini" was from that >period of the early 1950s when some really daft songs were in the hit [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >... >(Abject apologies, Laura.) The late 50s and pre-Beatlemania 60s continued to be an era of goofy novelty songs...a few years ago I heard a song called "Don't Knock The Music You Were Made To", the point of which was that the music your parents played, the stuff you consider corny and old-fashioned, might be the very music that put them in the mood to have created you in the first place...you might owe your very existence to a song that makes you screw up your face in disgust.... My curiosity piqued, I checked the list of Billboard #1 singles for the appropriate period, and ascertained that the song at the top of the charts when I was conceived was Sheb Wooley's "Purple People Eater".... Mentioned this to a slightly younger cow orker who found that hilarious, and asked me to find the corresponding song for *his* origin: Bobby 'Boris' Pickett's "Monster Mash".... In an attempt to delimit the "Age of Goofy Tunes", I started (arbitrarily, I admit) with 1950 and selected only those number-one singles that are undeniably novelty recordings ("Sh-Boom" and "Glow Worm" may have been considered goofy at the time but are now regarded as proto-rock-and-roll, and the ballads of Big Bad John, Davy Crockett, and the Battle of New Orleans were of serious interest to students of folklore)...these are songs that, with the most liberal possible intentions, I can't imagine the people performing with any intention other than inducing laughter: 22 Nov 1952 "It's In The Book" Johnny Standley 27 Dec 1952 "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" Jimmy Boyd 21 Mar 1953 "The Doggie in the Window" Patti Page 10 Oct 1953 "St George and the Dragonet" Stan Freberg 28 Apr 1958 "Witch Doctor" David Seville 09 Jun 1958 "Purple People Eater" Sheb Wooley 22 Dec 1959 "The Chipmunk Song" Chipmunks 11 Jul 1960 "Alley-Oop" Hollywood Argyles 08 Aug 1960 "Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polkadot Bikini" Bryan Hyland 10 Oct 1960 "Mr Custer" Larry Verne 20 Oct 1962 "Monster Mash" Bobby 'Boris' Pickett 07 Aug 1965 "I'm Henry the Eighth, I Am" Herman's Hermits 04 Sep 1971 "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey" Paul & Linda McCartney 21 Oct 1972 "My Ding-A-Ling" Chuck Berry 18 May 1974 "The Streak" Ray Stevens 07 Dec 1974 "Kung Fu Fighting" Carl Douglas 10 Jan 1976 "Convoy" C W McCall 16 Oct 1976 "Disco Duck" Rick Dees & His Cast of Idiots 16 May 1981 "Bette Davis Eyes" Kim Carnes 29 Mar 1986 "Rock Me Amadeus" Falco I stopped when I got to 1990 because I'm not familiar with a lot of these songs...maybe "Ice Ice Baby" (03 Nov 1990), but I can't really be sure what the artist was going for....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Robin Bignall filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >appropriate period, and ascertained that the song at the top of the charts when >I was conceived was Sheb Wooley's "Purple People Eater".... I'd have to go back to about April, 1939, for mine. A quick perusal of http://nfo.net/hits/1939.html doesn't give the hits by month. I'd like to claim "Over the Rainbow" or "Stairway to the Stars" as being pretty influential, but it might have been "Scatterbrain". SignatureRobin Herts, England [snip] > I'd have to go back to about April, 1939, for mine. A quick perusal > of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > or "Stairway to the Stars" as being pretty influential, but it might > have been "Scatterbrain". [snip] That link has the 1936 hits, my year of conception -- was I brought on by "In the Chapel in the Moonlight?" "Pennies from Heaven?" "These Foolish Things?" "The Way You Look Tonight?" or, I guess most likely, "Did I Remember?" [The list is from the top tunes selected by "Your Hit Parade," a radio show begun in 1935.] Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > Robin Bignall filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > the > artist was going for....r *Where are 'Ragg Mopp' and Flat-Foot Floogie' and "Huggin' and Chalkin'"? BTW, "Monster Mash" is making a comeback this Halloween! earle * Earle Jones filted: >> In an attempt to delimit the "Age of Goofy Tunes", I started (arbitrarily, I >> admit) with 1950 and selected only those number-one singles that are [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >*Where are 'Ragg Mopp' and Flat-Foot Floogie' and "Huggin' and >Chalkin'"? Either pre-1950 or didn't reach number one....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Earle Jones filted: >> In article R H Draney wrote: [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Either pre-1950 or didn't reach number one....r And then there was "The Flying Saucer" Part 1 (with Part 2 on the flip side). Of course, it wasn't really a song.... SignatureMaria >> Earle Jones filted: >>> In article R H Draney wrote: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > flip > side). Of course, it wasn't really a song.... Is that the one with "John Cameron Cameron, downnntownnn ... " ? 1956? SignatureFrank ess >> And then there was "The Flying Saucer" Part 1 (with Part 2 on the >> flip >> side). Of course, it wasn't really a song.... > > Is that the one with "John Cameron Cameron, downnntownnn ... " ? 1956? I think so. It was 1956, in any case. It's been too long since I've heard it. SignatureMaria > Earle Jones filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Either pre-1950 or didn't reach number one....r Howz come you don't have "See ya later, alligator"? "Bibbidy Bobbidy Boo". Here are some more pre-50s things: Andrews sisters: "Tegucigalpa, Honduras". "Managua, Nicaragua". "Rum and Coca Cola". And who knows who wrote or sang "Mairzy Doats", and when? Pat Durkin filted: >And who knows who wrote or sang "Mairzy Doats", and when? Written by Milton Drake, Al Hoffman and Jerry Livingston.... Recorded by: Joanie Bartels David Grisman Ted Heath Homer & Jethro Burl Ives Barbara Jay Spike Jones Beverly Kenney Romero Lubambo The Merry Macs Mitch Miller Maria Muldaur (!) Eric Nagler Fred Penner The Pied Pipers Tommy Ridgley Raymond Scott & His Orchestra Sharon, Lois & Bram The Three Stooges Al Trace Dave Van Ronk By far the greatest number of re-issues are by the Merry Macs and the Pied Pipers; the biggest hit version was by the former....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Pat Durkin filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Pied > Pipers; the biggest hit version was by the former....r Thanks, r. By the way, since I have never heard of the Merry Macs (oh, I can look it up, thanks again), the name just brings up a kids' song for jumping rope to--or doing the hand jive. "Oh, Merry Mack, Mack, Mack." Oh, and we never mentioned Spike Jones in the part of the thread about nonsense lyrics. But I suppose he did such weird things to lyrics that he doesn't really fit, does he? Pat Durkin filted: >Oh, and we never mentioned Spike Jones in the part of the thread about >nonsense lyrics. But I suppose he did such weird things to lyrics that >he doesn't really fit, does he? In this instance, he added the verse "frogs eat bugs and birds eat bugs and little dogs eat liver" which may not have been in any of the other versions....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Pat Durkin filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > little dogs eat liver" which may not have been in any of the other > versions....r Down in the meadow in an iddy biddy pool. Swam free widdow fishies and the mommy fishy too. Fwim! said the mommy fish. Fwim if you can! And they fwam and they fwam all over the dam. (Actually, I suppose Mommy sang Swim! but they all "fwam", didn't they?) > Thanks, r. By the way, since I have never heard of the Merry Macs (oh, > I can look it up, thanks again), the name just brings up a kids' song > for jumping rope to--or doing the hand jive. "Oh, Merry Mack, Mack, > Mack." There seem to have been several versions of this around. The one I knew can be found at <http://www.nla.gov.au/fishtrout/>. Mary Mack, dressed in black, Silver buttons down her back. She likes coffee, she likes tea, She likes sitting on a blackfella's knee. Other web sites suggest that this is a song from the American Civil War era. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. >> Thanks, r. By the way, since I have never heard of the Merry Macs >> (oh, I can look it up, thanks again), the name just brings up a kids' [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Other web sites suggest that this is a song from the American Civil > War era. Could be, of course. Oh, Mary Mack.... With silver buttons, buttons, buttons down her back, back, back. She asked her mother, mother, mother for fifty cents, cents, cents, To see the elephant, elephant, elephant jump the fence, fence fence. Can't recall any other verses there, but that reminded me of "Found a peanut", which, I believe, we discussed here 2 or 3 years ago (melody as in "My Darling Clementine". Interminable bus-riding songs. Oh, you know, in the 60's we had "I'm 'Enery the eighth I am", followed by the much older "99 bottles of beer on the wall". Oh, my sister says that in our "Playmates" version (I don't recall if that was in this thread or a different one), we sang "Look down my rainbarrel", so I suppose the implication is that we would see frogs, salamanders, or whatever. Mom collected rainwater for tub baths, hair-washing, etc. >>> Thanks, r. By the way, since I have never heard of the Merry Macs >>> (oh, I can look it up, thanks again), the name just brings up a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> She likes coffee, she likes tea, >> She likes sitting on a blackfella's knee. That one sounds like a jumprope rhythm. >> Other web sites suggest that this is a song from the American Civil >> War era. > > Could be, of course. > > Oh, Mary Mack.... "Miss Mary Mack" as I learned it. (ca. 1970, Chicago) > With silver buttons, buttons, buttons down her back, back, back. > She asked her mother, mother, mother for fifty cents, cents, cents, > To see the elephant, elephant, elephant jump the fence, fence fence. "elephants" "jump over". > Can't recall any other verses there, They jumped so high, high, high they reached the sky, sky, sky, And they didn't come down, down, down 'til the fourth of July, ly, ly. > but that reminded me of "Found a peanut", which, I believe, we > discussed here 2 or 3 years ago (melody as in "My Darling > Clementine". Interminable bus-riding songs. "Miss Mary Mack" wasn't a bus riding song, though; it was a two-person hand-clapping song, with a particular pattern, which I can almost remember. The first three beats of each line were both hands on your own body (opposite knees, same knees, and opposite shoulders, IIRC), and the three beats on the repeated word were claps on the other players' hands, right, left, right, with a clap on your own hand in between. Or something like that. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"You can't prove it *isn't* so!" is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |as good as Q.E.D. in folk logic--as Palo Alto, CA 94304 |though it were necessary to submit |a piece of the moon to chemical kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |analysis before you could be sure (650)857-7572 |that it was not made of green |cheese. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Bergen Evans >>>> Thanks, r. By the way, since I have never heard of the Merry Macs >>>> (oh, I can look it up, thanks again), the name just brings up a [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > "elephants" "jump over". But "jump over" ruins the beat for me. > They jumped so high, high, high they reached the sky, sky, sky, > And they didn't come down, down, down 'til the fourth of July, ly, ly. Very good! That's them! (Except that we sang "J'ly, J'ly, J'ly!" > "Miss Mary Mack" wasn't a bus riding song, though; it was a two-person > hand-clapping song, with a particular pattern, which I can almost [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > players' hands, right, left, right, with a clap on your own hand in > between. Or something like that. That could be. I never really mastered the art. There was a "potato" chant that some people sang to the hand-jive, too. "One potato, two potato," but in the end it was an involved and complicated "eenie, meenie", to find out who would be "it". I remember the open-hand clap, the cross-body clap, the double (two-beat) knuckle rap. Hmm. Oh, and the open palm/open back slap on the hands of the opposite number for two, three or four beats. I guess I am describing the seated routine. >>> Oh, Mary Mack.... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > But "jump over" ruins the beat for me. Whereas it fixes it for me. The game had three touches before the repeated word. (In the second line we had "all down her".) "Jump the" has one syllable too few. >> They jumped so high, high, high they reached the sky, sky, sky, >> And they didn't come down, down, down 'til the fourth of July, ly, ly. > > Very good! That's them! (Except that we sang "J'ly, J'ly, J'ly!" SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |You cannot solve problems with the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |same type of thinking that created Palo Alto, CA 94304 |them. | Albert Einstein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >>> Thanks, r. By the way, since I have never heard of the Merry Macs > >>> (oh, I can look it up, thanks again), the name just brings up a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > That one sounds like a jumprope rhythm.... * I haven't looked yet, but I suspect there are dozens of jump-rope rhythms out there. In fact, I would guess that the rap genre has its origins there. The "Pease porridge hot, pease porridge cold" probably came about the time of the "Eeny, meeny, miny, moe" but I'm not really sure -- having no good reference for such stuff. In the movie, "Crying of the Lambs", Dr. Lecter drives his adjacent (retarded) cellmate crazy by teaching him this: "Gonna be with Jesus, Gonna be with Christ, Gonna be with Jesus If I act real nice." When the prisoner tries the verse, Lecter tells him, "No, No! It's like "Pease porridge hot..." You got to get the rhythm right. A long way from the "One, two, three O'Leary" -- right? earle * >> 22 Nov 1952 "It's In The Book" Johnny Standley Not really a song. >> 27 Dec 1952 "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" Jimmy Boyd >> 21 Mar 1953 "The Doggie in the Window" Patti Page [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >*Where are 'Ragg Mopp' and Flat-Foot Floogie' How far back are you going? Flat-Foot Floogie is by Fats Waller back in the 1930s. and "Huggin' and >Chalkin'"? ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>*Where are 'Ragg Mopp' and Flat-Foot Floogie' > >How far back are you going? Flat-Foot Floogie is by Fats Waller >back in the 1930s. I would have thought "Flat-Foot Floozie", but evidently there's some history to this title: "#3 "The Flat Foot Floogie" 2:28 Slim and Slam (Bulee Gaillard and Leroy Stewart) (1938) The Groove Juice Special Columbia/Legacy CK 64898 ©1996 Slim and Slam were a vaudeville-styled comedy and musical duo. They combined music, virtuosity, tap dancing, and slapstick routines to "entertain." Both artists were black and much like Amos and Andy, were forced to cater to white taste in order to be successful professionally. This song, for example, was originally entitled "The Flat Foot Floozie." A white-owned record company decided that the title was too risque and forced the duo to change it to meet with American puritanical mores. (If they had only known what was to come... ) In the 1960s this assimilationist approach to race relations came under attack by the black power movement. For me, however, artists such as Gallard and Stewart made the best of a limited range of opportunities. Black Power built upon the success of entertainers like Slim and Slam and might not have been possible without them. How successful were Slim & Slam? Well the sheet music to this tune was included in a time capsule buried at the 1939 New York Worlds Fair along with John Philip Sousas The Stars And Stripes Forever and George Gershwins Rhapsody in Blue! Why did they achieve this success? --Because a white jazzband leader, Benny Goodman, made a band recording of Flat Foot Floogie that received a lot of radio play. With their reputation made, however, audiences began to see Gaillard and Stewart in concert &endash; i.e., by playing the corporate game, these black performers earned a certain degree of artistic freedom and gained a voice in society." For some additional comments on "Floogie/Floozie", see: http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20001113 with an explanation of what the "floy, floy" means. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL |
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