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Discussion Groups / English Usage / October 2006Phototour - Chicago Hotdog
A restaurant review at: http://home.earthlink.net/~tony_cooper213/hotdog1.html  SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > A restaurant review at: > http://home.earthlink.net/~tony_cooper213/hotdog1.html My main objection was that the hotdog seemed to be grilled or cooked over a flame. (Note the charring at the right end of the hotdog) This is wrong, wrong, wrong. Chicago hotdogs are boiled, and have that plumpness that comes from boiling them. They most certaily are not! They are simmered. If they actually reach boiling, they get an unpleasant, metallic taste. The Vienna web site FAQ used to say (they've revamped their site, and I can't find it anymore): ] To heat in hot water: Fill pot with water and set temperature to ] 170-180° (_simmer_, not _boil!_). Place hot dogs in water and let ] simmer for 10 minutes or until hot dogs are floating. The italics are theirs. Right there is enough to make the offering a "Chicago-style" hotdog and not a Chicago-style hotdog. Agreed, although grilled hot dogs, called "char dogs" in Chicago, have become distressingly popular. The new Vienna web site has a "Periodic Table of Condiments" at http://www.viennabeef.com/culture/chicagostyle.asp I was worried when I saw the "ketchup" there until I clicked on it. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |English grammar is not taught in 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |primary or secondary schools in the Palo Alto, CA 94304 |United States. Sometimes some |mythology is taught under that kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |rubric, but luckily it's usually (650)857-7572 |ignored, except by the credulous. | John Lawler http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > A restaurant review at: > > http://home.earthlink.net/~tony_cooper213/hotdog1.html [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.viennabeef.com/culture/chicagostyle.asp [...] All very scholarly, and makes me hungry. (I have, I hope, warned you before never under any non-dying-of-starvation circumstances to try a British hot dog.) But "sport peppers". Is it possible to explain a bit? And can you tell if you're served with an unsporting one? I Ggld a little, without much information coming up, though the best British source of pepper seeds, http://www.seeds-by-size.co.uk/peppers-hot.html had a catalogue entry: <Sport 5 seeds cost £2.00 10 seeds cost £4.00 25 seeds cost £7.00 A Capsicum annum type of pepper. Peppers resemble Tabasco peppers,but the Sport pepper is larger, about 1-1/2 inches long and 1/2 inch wide. They are medium-hot & produced in great abundance on sturdy plants.> For that money, they'd better be exceptional. (Hey, Tony! I've just thought. When planting out your yearly impatiens, why not a couple of chilli plants to give height? They look terrific, no gardening skill or enthusiasm required. Your climate is perfect, give or take a hurricane or two. SignatureMike. >All very scholarly, and makes me hungry. (I have, I hope, warned you >before never under any non-dying-of-starvation circumstances to try a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >information coming up, though the best British source of pepper seeds, >http://www.seeds-by-size.co.uk/peppers-hot.html They are pictured on my link. They're a bit "hot", but "hot" is a difficult word when it comes to peppers. What's "hot" to some is not "hot" to others, and what's "not hot" to some is unbearable to others. Have I cleared that up? I do recommend that any pepper be nibbled at experimentally before being ingested. >(Hey, Tony! I've just thought. When planting out your yearly impatiens, >why not a couple of chilli plants to give height? They look terrific, >no gardening skill or enthusiasm required. Your climate is perfect, >give or take a hurricane or two. Oh, we do. I don't happen to have any growing at the moment, but I have grown them. Not "chilli plants", but red pepper plants. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > All very scholarly, and makes me hungry. (I have, I hope, warned you > before never under any non-dying-of-starvation circumstances to try > a British hot dog.) I've seen them. I couldn't bring myself to try them. > But "sport peppers". Is it possible to explain a bit? A bit. They're about two or three inches long and about half an inch in diameter, firm, and what I would call "medium hot". Vienna, which sells them, says Real Chicago Style Dogs Always Pack A Little Heat. Emil and Reichel Ladany knew what they were doing when they made sport peppers one of the original toppings of their original dog. Vienna Sport peppers are medium-hot, naturally bite-sized, and packed in a seasoned brine to ensure the right amount of spicy crunch. They contain almost no fat and have only five calories per pepper. http://www.viennabeef.com/products/item.asp?PRODUCT_ID=21 If you order them on a hot dog in Chicago, of course, you just ask for "peppers", but I'm pretty sure that I heard them described as "sport peppers" earlier than the earliest citation I can find, which is from the _LA Times_ in 1983, in which they're called "'hot sport' peppers". (I've only got access to the _Chicago Tribune_ back to 1985, and the term first shows up there in 1986.) Looking at Google Books, I see that they appear to have come from Louisiana: During the first half of this century, many of the region's [New Iberia, Louisiana] small farmers grew a few acres of cayennes, or tabascos, or sport peppers, which they sold to the McIlhennys or the Trappeys. ... "Then my daddy took to growin' sport peppers. Sports are not as large as cayennes, and not so small as tabascos. They're an in-between size. They were called sports because they didn't burn your hand when you picked them. Also, a sport pepper looks like somebody dressed up in a nice new suit. That's just how it looks. But a tabasco pepper is hell on earth, _cher_. I must say we were awfully glad when my daddy switched from tabasco to sport. After that came cayennes, and they diddn't burn you either." Richard Schweid, _Hot Peppers: The Story of Cajuns and Capsicum_, p. 24 SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |ActiveX is pretty harmless anyway. 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |It can't affect you unless you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |install Windows, and who would be |foolish enough to do that? kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Peter Moylan (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Vienna, which sells them, says > in-between size. They were called sports because they didn't burn > your hand when you picked them. Of course. Stupot >> A restaurant review at: >> http://home.earthlink.net/~tony_cooper213/hotdog1.html [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >They most certaily are not! My error. I am shamed. But I told you people that I don't cook! > They are simmered. If they actually >reach boiling, they get an unpleasant, metallic taste. The Vienna web [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >I was worried when I saw the "ketchup" there until I clicked on it. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > A restaurant review at: > http://home.earthlink.net/~tony_cooper213/hotdog1.html Wow! I'm impressed - it's really difficult to photograph food effectively. Did any other diners observe you doing so? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> A restaurant review at: >> http://home.earthlink.net/~tony_cooper213/hotdog1.html > >Wow! I'm impressed - it's really difficult to photograph food >effectively. Did any other diners observe you doing so? Well, no one rushed out to watch. The place has outside seating, and I was at an outside table. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL "...kosher pickle spear (check)..." I assume that's the cucumber below the bun. Are there non-kosher (cucumber) pickles? One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is a frankfurt. And while we may boil, simmer, or even grill (AmE broil) them at home, a proper hot dog has a steamed frankfurt. Stupot > One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the > same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is > a frankfurt. Whether a frankfurter is a "sausage" in present-day AmE (which includes ChiE) is a matter of some dispute. I say that frankfurters stopped being sausages many decades ago. Hot dogs are, or contain, frankfurters. The term "frankfurt" meaning "frankfurter" is, IME, a New Englandism, now rapidly dying out. So too "hamburg" for "hamburger". SignatureBuckwheat Soba >> One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the >> same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The term "frankfurt" meaning "frankfurter" is, IME, a New Englandism, now > rapidly dying out. So too "hamburg" for "hamburger". The Newenglanism "hamburg" means hamburger meat (raw ground beef), not the cooked final product in a bun. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the >>> same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The Newenglanism "hamburg" means hamburger meat (raw ground beef), not the > cooked final product in a bun. So a speaker of a New England dialect could say "I'll buy some hamburg to make hamburgers"? That seems unlikely to me. Hamburger meat is traditionally called "chopmeat" in New YorkE. It appears to be called "minced beef" in ApproxBrE, though for some reason they like to throw in raisins and currants and things like that. SignatureBuckwheat Soba [...] > Hamburger meat is traditionally called "chopmeat" in New YorkE. It > appears to be called "minced beef" in ApproxBrE, though for some reason > they like to throw in raisins and currants and things like that. No, you're thinking of "mincemeat", which used to have meat in it but these days in the UK generally doesn't: http://tinyurl.com/vl93w //Quote mincemeat A rich, spicy preserve made of fruit (usually chopped cherries, dried apricots, apples or pears, raisins and candied citrus peel), nuts, beef SUET, various spices and brandy or rum. Old-time mincemeats included minced, cooked lean meat (usually beef) — hence the name. Most modern versions do not use meat. The ingredients are combined, then covered and allowed to mature for a month for the flavors to mingle and mellow. Commercially prepared mincemeat is available in jars in most supermarkets — particularly around Thanksgiving and Christmas. Mincemeat can be used in many dishes including pies, tarts, puddings and cookies. //End of quote SignatureLes > Hamburger meat is traditionally called "chopmeat" in New YorkE. It > appears to be called "minced beef" in ApproxBrE, though for some > reason they like to throw in raisins and currants and things like > that. *sigh* BrE "minced beef"/"mince" = AmE "ground beef". The stuff with raisins etc in is "mincemeat" and, these days anyway, rarely contains any meat. >>>> One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the >>>> same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > So a speaker of a New England dialect could say "I'll buy some hamburg to > make hamburgers"? That seems unlikely to me. I cannot guarantee that this is the case in all New England dialects, but in the ones that call ground beef "hamburg" with which I have been acquainted, yes, that is exactly what they say. The face that you make in their presence when you are overcome by the apparent improbability of their utterance is one of the ways they can tell you are from away. Another way, of course, is for them to just wait until you open your mouth. Do you need quahogs explained to you, too? Scrod? Frozen pudding? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>> One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the >>>>> same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > the ones that call ground beef "hamburg" with which I have been acquainted, > yes, that is exactly what they say. Thinking further, I still don't buy this. For example, when I lived in rural western Connecticut, the local supermarkets sold (I distinctly remember this) "hamburg buns". Are you contending that the locals thought of this as "buns made for hamburgers which are made from hamburg", rather than "buns made for hamburgs"? SignatureBuckwheat Soba >> I cannot guarantee that this is the case in all New England dialects, but in >> the ones that call ground beef "hamburg" with which I have been acquainted, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >of this as "buns made for hamburgers which are made from hamburg", rather >than "buns made for hamburgs"? Western Connecticut is "really" a New York suburb; it's not really culturally New England at all, so you picked the wrong example from which to generalize. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> I cannot guarantee that this is the case in all New England dialects, but in >>> the ones that call ground beef "hamburg" with which I have been acquainted, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > culturally New England at all, so you picked the wrong example from > which to generalize. The part of Western Connecticut I am speaking of is no New York suburb (yet), and the use of "hamburg" is proof positive of that. Southwestern Connecticut is a New York suburb, essentially, but that's Kemmishland. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >> Western Connecticut is "really" a New York suburb; it's not really >> culturally New England at all, so you picked the wrong example from >> which to generalize. > > The part of Western Connecticut I am speaking of is no New York suburb > (yet), and the use of "hamburg" is proof positive of that. However, there's a comparatively major dialectological divide between western New England and eastern New England; there's no particularly large probability that a dialect feature that is found in Boston or Providence will also be found in western Connecticut. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >>> I cannot guarantee that this is the case in all New England dialects, >>> but in the ones that call ground beef "hamburg" with which I have been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>of this as "buns made for hamburgers which are made from hamburg", rather >>than "buns made for hamburgs"? What did the hot dog rolls look like there? > Western Connecticut is "really" a New York suburb; it's not really > culturally New England at all, so you picked the wrong example from > which to generalize. Exactly. I'm more familiar with eastern Mass., where the hamburg/hamburger distinction caused me much headscratching until it was explained to me. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the >> same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ChiE) is a matter of some dispute. I say that frankfurters stopped being > sausages many decades ago. Hot dogs are, or contain, frankfurters. Not by me, they don't. I regard, rightly or wrongly, "frankfurter" as obsolescent; and the, hm, piece of meat that you might put in a hot dog bun and put relish or stuff on is a hot dog. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >> Whether a frankfurter is a "sausage" in present-day AmE (which includes >> ChiE) is a matter of some dispute. I say that frankfurters stopped being [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > obsolescent; and the, hm, piece of meat that you might put in a hot dog > bun and put relish or stuff on is a hot dog. Oh, that's my main usage too, and I'd say that "frankfurter" seems very close to archaic to me too, and has my whole life (it survived only in "franks and beans", and in labels on packages). Is there anyone out there who really thinks of a hot dog primarily as "a frank" or "a frankfurter" or "a wiener", etc.? Well, I guess *some* people call it "frank". >>> Whether a frankfurter is a "sausage" in present-day AmE (which includes >>> ChiE) is a matter of some dispute. I say that frankfurters stopped being [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >frank" or "a frankfurter" or "a wiener", etc.? Well, I guess *some* >people call it "frank". I think of it as the whole combination of a frankfurter in a soft white roll, with fried onions and mild mustard or relish. I don't think I'd call a bratwurst or other sausage similarly clothed a hot dog. But then I'm culturally English/European, and have nothing to say about AmE standards. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! >I think of it as the whole combination of a frankfurter in a soft white >roll, with fried onions and mild mustard or relish. I don't think I'd >call a bratwurst or other sausage similarly clothed a hot dog. But then >I'm culturally English/European, and have nothing to say about AmE >standards. I don't think I've ever had fried onions on a hot dog, but I would put fried onions on a brat. Never relish, though. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>>> Whether a frankfurter is a "sausage" in present-day AmE (which includes >>>> ChiE) is a matter of some dispute. I say that frankfurters stopped being [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >I'm culturally English/European, and have nothing to say about AmE >standards. I agree with that, and if it weren't the middle of the night I might even go and check my impression that UK supermarkets tend to sell them labeled as frankfurters. MED magazine, the website of the Macmillan English Dictionary, offers this in its edition of May 2003: "The linguistic history of war features many instances of countries ejecting words in their vocabulary which have been borrowed from the language of their current enemies. In World War I, Americans renamed sauerkraut 'liberty cabbage' (or just plain 'pickled vegetables'), the frankfurter became a hot dog, dachshunds became liberty hounds, hamburgers were renamed liberty steaks (or in some places Salisbury Steaks), and German shepherds became Alsatians." If this is true, the hot dog seems to have been the only name that stuck. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> Whether a frankfurter is a "sausage" in present-day AmE (which includes >>> ChiE) is a matter of some dispute. I say that frankfurters stopped being [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >frank" or "a frankfurter" or "a wiener", etc.? Well, I guess *some* >people call it "frank". As I brought up earlier, Sara Lee still thinks of them as franks: http://www.ballparkfranks.com/home/ SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>>> Whether a frankfurter is a "sausage" in present-day AmE (which includes >>>> ChiE) is a matter of some dispute. I say that frankfurters stopped being [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>frank" or "a frankfurter" or "a wiener", etc.? Well, I guess *some* >>people call it "frank". I've called one a frankfurter, and so forth, but only when outside America. These days, "hot dog" is grudgingly recognized even in France. >As I brought up earlier, Sara Lee still thinks of them as franks: >http://www.ballparkfranks.com/home/ SignatureCharles Riggs ... > I've called one a frankfurter, and so forth, but only when outside > America. These days, "hot dog" is grudgingly recognized even in > France. " 'Otdogue" has always been the only name for a hot dog in its American form (bun + dog + fixins). A Frankfurter or a francfort are very different from what you would call a frank (and from each other). >"...kosher pickle spear (check)..." > >I assume that's the cucumber below the bun. Are there non-kosher >(cucumber) pickles? Certainly. You couldn't tell by the look or taste, but if they come in a jar that is labeled to show the product inside is kosher, they've been processed under kosher conditions. No company is going to use that term undeservedly. >One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the >same as a frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is >a frankfurt. And while we may boil, simmer, or even grill (AmE broil) >them at home, a proper hot dog has a steamed frankfurt. We - in the US - call a hotdog a hotdog, a frank, a weiner, a weenie, or a frankfurter, but not a sausage. I can't imagine any American using the word "sausage" around a hotdog unless that person is a regular in aue and trying to get Areff's attention. I used "boiled" on that page, but I was in serious error. "Simmered" or "steamed" should have been used. They are prepared in water brought up to "hot", but not to "boil". SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>"...kosher pickle spear (check)..." >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they've been processed under kosher conditions. No company is going > to use that term undeservedly. On the other hand, nobody's going to use a sweet pickle when a "kosher pickle" is called for, even if it was made under strictly rabbinically-certified conditions (which it probably was). The AHD is the only dictionary I can find that gives an opinion on "kosher pickle", and they define it as "a pickled cucumber flavored with garlic". I suspect that most places that weren't themselves certified kosher would be more likely to use non-kosher "kosher-style" dill pickles than certified-kosher pickles of any other sort. >>One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the same as a >>frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > We - in the US - call a hotdog a hotdog, a frank, a weiner, a > weenie, or a frankfurter, or just a "dog". > but not a sausage. I can't imagine any American using the word > "sausage" around a hotdog unless that person is a regular in aue and > trying to get Areff's attention. But it will show up in elicited lists of "sausages". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"The Dynamics of Interbeing and 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |Monological Imperatives in 'Dick Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and Jane' : A Study in Psychic |Transrelational Modes." kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Calvin (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > >>"...kosher pickle spear (check)..." > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > kosher would be more likely to use non-kosher "kosher-style" dill > pickles than certified-kosher pickles of any other sort. ... That's my understanding. A dill pickle is kosher-style if it has garlic. Which it should. Except maybe for that glorious invention, the half-done dill pickle. SignatureJerry Friedman >I suspect that most places that weren't themselves certified >kosher would be more likely to use non-kosher "kosher-style" dill >pickles than certified-kosher pickles of any other sort. I dunno about that. Most restaurants buy their canned/jarred staples from one or two wholesale supply houses. A restaurant that serves menu items that come with a slice of pickle would order the pickles in quantity. If the restaurant isn't concerned with offering kosher items, the brand of pickle ordered would depend on taste and price. If kosher pickles are not more expensive than kosher-style pickles, then there's no "more likely" involved in the decision. I don't see that kosher pickles are any more or less expensive than kosher-style pickles. Checking at a local supermarket I see that *all* brands and styles of pickles on the shelf are kosher. Even the pickles that do not have the word "kosher" on the label have the "OU/Circle U" on the label. Since this is not Skokie, I assume that the producers of pickles don't feel that offering a non-kosher product has any market appeal or pricing advantage. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>I suspect that most places that weren't themselves certified >>kosher would be more likely to use non-kosher "kosher-style" dill [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > kosher-style pickles, then there's no "more likely" involved in the > decision. By "of any other sort", I meant non-kosher-style pickles, e.g., sweet pikles, bread-and-butter pickles, sour pickles. If the flavor called for is "kosher pickle", they're not going to use a sweet pickle that just happens to be certified kosher. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | is chaunge Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Withinne a thousand yer, and wordes | tho kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |That hadden prys now wonder nyce and (650)857-7572 | straunge |Us thenketh hem, and yet they spake http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | hem so | Chaucer >>>I suspect that most places that weren't themselves certified >>>kosher would be more likely to use non-kosher "kosher-style" dill [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >for is "kosher pickle", they're not going to use a sweet pickle that >just happens to be certified kosher. Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? It's not like the pickle makes a statement about the non-kosherness of the place. I really can't figure out your point. I'm not even sure the restaurant could conveniently *order* a non-Kosher Kosher-style pickle. They're available, but do restaurant supply houses carry two different kinds of pickle spears? SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>>>I suspect that most places that weren't themselves certified >>>>kosher would be more likely to use non-kosher "kosher-style" dill [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? It would, presumably, do so if the non-certified-kosher pickle was cheaper. There are people who sell things labeled "kosher-style pickles". I presume that they have customers. > It's not like the pickle makes a statement about the non-kosherness > of the place. I really can't figure out your point. My point is that it's the style of pickle, not the kosherness of it that matters. The kosher sweet pickles in my refrigerator are not the sort of "kosher pickles" that one would use when "kosher pickles" are called for. > I'm not even sure the restaurant could conveniently *order* a > non-Kosher Kosher-style pickle. They're available, but do > restaurant supply houses carry two different kinds of pickle spears? I would guess that restaurant supply houses carry multiple brands of most things. Whether that includes brands of pickles made by companies that don't go to the trouble and expense of getting certified, I couldn't tell you. I doubt that anybody would go in with "non-kosher X" on their shopping list, but any restaurant that isn't itself kosher enough to satisfy kosher customers probably is going to buy based on price and perceived quality. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There are two types of people - 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |those who are one of the two types Palo Alto, CA 94304 |of people, and those who are not. | Leigh Blue Caldwell kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? > >It would, presumably, do so if the non-certified-kosher pickle was >cheaper. There are people who sell things labeled "kosher-style >pickles". I presume that they have customers. Based on a thorough and detailed market research expedition (one brief visit to my local Publix supermarket), it doesn't appear that stores bother to carry pickles of any style that are not kosher. Extrapolating this thorough and detailed market research expedition, I've determined (remember, I have an MBA)that non-kosher pickles are not produced in enough volume to allow for a significant price advantage. Furthermore, as a Catholic-raised, now-atheist, person who once lived with two Jewish roommates, I doubt if the cost of rabbinical supervision of the pickle production line adds enough incremental cost to kosher pickles to require a disadvantageous cost factor. My educated guess (Northwestern has a *very* well regarded graduate business school) is that the firms that offer kosher-style pickle spears base their appeal on some unique taste factor such as the addition of something - perhaps a spice - in their brine and could even sell for a higher price than certified-kosher pickle spears. Or, possibly, a very alluring label with grammatically correct wording (possibly edited by UC). I assume that this reasoned and neatly tied-up analysis of the situation has completely destroyed your argument, and this will be the end of it. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > Or, >possibly, a very alluring label with grammatically correct wording >(possibly edited by UC). But 99.999% of the population would be too moronic to understand the label. (Or have I mis-inferred?) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>> Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > not produced in enough volume to allow for a significant price > advantage. Well, I certainly can't argue with the rigor of your methodology, so I have to accept your results. > Furthermore, as a Catholic-raised, now-atheist, person who once > lived with two Jewish roommates, I doubt if the cost of rabbinical > supervision of the pickle production line adds enough incremental > cost to kosher pickles to require a disadvantageous cost factor. You're probably right, although it's amazingly difficult to find even a ballpark figure. > My educated guess (Northwestern has a *very* well regarded graduate > business school) is that the firms that offer kosher-style pickle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > situation has completely destroyed your argument, and this will be > the end of it. Who am I to argue? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Feeling good about government is like 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |looking on the bright side of any Palo Alto, CA 94304 |catastrophe. When you quit looking |on the bright side, the catastrophe kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |is still there. (650)857-7572 | P.J. O'Rourke http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > You're probably right, although it's amazingly difficult to find even > a ballpark figure. How did you even get that far? I poked around the four or five top kosher certification agencies, and they all refuse to even consider giving you a price until after you sign over your production secrets to them. -=Eric >> You're probably right, although it's amazingly difficult to find even >> a ballpark figure. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > giving you a price until after you sign over your production secrets > to them. I only actually found one, in Australia, that was willing to give an estimate: A typical blanket certification for a single facility will cost between $AU 1500 to $AU 3000, but this is dependant on the actual conditions of the certification as stipulated by the Rabbinic Board. http://www.kosher.org.au/kosher_certification.htm SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |"Are you okay?" 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | Palo Alto, CA 94304 |"I'm made of felt....Add by dose |cubs off." kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>> Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >You're probably right, although it's amazingly difficult to find even >a ballpark figure. See why MBAs are better at market analysis than people who have whatever degree(s) you have? Ball Park Franks (a product of Sara Lee Foods) are not kosher. You're trying to find out the costs of rabbinical supervision of a product that is not produced under rabbinical supervision. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >>> Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > brief visit to my local Publix supermarket), it doesn't appear that > > stores bother to carry pickles of any style that are not kosher. [...] Whereas a similarly thorough and detailed project at Waitrose shows that there are separate displays of kosher and non-kosher (I've forgotten the right word: not "haram", anyway) pickles, of which the kosher one is much the smaller. (Damn! My mouth's watering genteelly.) > > I assume that this reasoned and neatly tied-up analysis of the > > situation has completely destroyed your argument, and this will be > > the end of it. > > Who am I to argue? Particularly when we've been authoritatively informed by UC's cousin at that wellspring of learning, the Cape, that you don't speak English. SignatureMike. > Whereas a similarly thorough and detailed project at Waitrose shows > that there are separate displays of kosher and non-kosher (I've > forgotten the right word: not "haram", anyway) The word you want is "tref". There was a funny old hacker story about a university that had two printer output bins, labeled "KOSHER" and "TREF", but darned if I can find (or remember) it now. -=Eric > Whereas a similarly thorough and detailed project at Waitrose shows > that there are separate displays of kosher and non-kosher (I've > forgotten the right word: not "haram", anyway) pickles, of which the > kosher one is much the smaller. (Damn! My mouth's watering genteelly.) So, are the non-kosher pickles you're referring to {non-kosher} pickles or non-{kosher pickles}? Anyway, the word for 'non-kosher' is "treyf". -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > > Whereas a similarly thorough and detailed project at Waitrose shows > > that there are separate displays of kosher and non-kosher (I've [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > So, are the non-kosher pickles you're referring to {non-kosher} pickles > or non-{kosher pickles}? Ah, I see. I think. I won't try a Venn diagram here, but there's a partial overlap in fundamental design: I think some of the treyf ones would be kosher if they were kosher, but most wouldn't be, even if they were. > Anyway, the word for 'non-kosher' is "treyf". So it is: thanks (and to Jerry). SignatureMike. Aaron J. Dinkin wrote, in part: > Anyway, the word for 'non-kosher' is "treyf". Assigning such an ugly-sounding word to something that isn't kosher just isn't kosher. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > > >>> Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? > > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > forgotten the right word: not "haram", anyway) pickles, of which the > kosher one is much the smaller. Tref. Rhymes with "safe", at least in Yinglish. But cf. Hebrew "cherem", ban, ostracism (used several times in Joshua and at least once with regard to Spinoza). (By "ch" I'm representing a letter that is now pronounced as in "loch" but allegedly was once an "emphatic h".) > (Damn! My mouth's watering genteelly.) Spinoza's did too, eventually. SignatureJerry Friedman hopes he's not making any of this up. > Tref. Rhymes with "safe", at least in Yinglish. I'd spell it "treif" or "treyf" in English. Interestingly, neither MWCD11 nor the OED list it, even in quotes, although the OED does define "tref" as A social unit that was once traditional in Wales, consisting of a hamlet or homestead or the community occupying it Oh, wait. They've got an entry for "trefa" or "trifa", pronounced /treIf@/ or /traIf@/, with spelings of "trepha", "triphah", "tryfer", "trayf", "treff", "treife", "trifah", etc. [their "etc."] The quotes they give are 1837 treff 1851 tryfer 1868 trefa 1892 tripha 1906 terefah 1907 tripha 1911 trifa 1961 trifah 1966 tref 1975 treife 1978 trayf I don't think I've ever heard it pronounced with two syllables. Is that common in the UK? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you rewrite a compiler from 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |scratch, you sometimes fix things Palo Alto, CA 94304 |you didn't know were broken. | Larry Wall kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>Tref. Rhymes with "safe", at least in Yinglish. > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I don't think I've ever heard it pronounced with two syllables. Is > that common in the UK? I have heard it occasionally but I wouldn't describe it as common. Could be a generational thing: I think my grandparents may have pronounced it with two syllables. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>Tref. Rhymes with "safe", at least in Yinglish. >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > be a generational thing: I think my grandparents may have pronounced it > with two syllables. I associate the disyllablic pronunciation and associated spellings particularly with the "Trefa Banquet", the famous cockup on the catering front in the 1880s that cemented the division between reformers and traditionalists in America that persists to the present day. There's a nicely "fair and balanced"(tm) account of the incident here: http://www.ajhs.org/publications/chapters/chapter.cfm?documentID=241 SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>Tref. Rhymes with "safe", at least in Yinglish. >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > http://www.ajhs.org/publications/chapters/chapter.cfm?documentID=241 How very interesting, I had never heard of that. The same schisms exist in the UK, of course but I don't think they have ever been quite so colourfully illustrated. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> I associate the disyllablic pronunciation and associated spellings >> particularly with the "Trefa Banquet", the famous cockup on the catering [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > in the UK, of course but I don't think they have ever been quite so > colourfully illustrated. The tale has got legs, that's for sure. My personal opinion is that if German-American Jews were somehow to forget the stories of Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, the patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Exodus and the giving of the Law on Sinai, we could make due with "the Treyfa" alone as our Creation Narrative. Note that it's not even necessary to say "the treyfa banquet" in full. Just "the Treyfa" will be understood, particularly if pronounced with a capital T. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >>>Tref. Rhymes with "safe", at least in Yinglish. > >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > be a generational thing: I think my grandparents may have pronounced it > > with two syllables. Isn't that one of those Yiddish case-or-something things? "Pork is treyf" but "a treyfa banquet"? Like "meshuge" and "meshugener"? > I associate the disyllablic pronunciation and associated spellings > particularly with the "Trefa Banquet", the famous cockup on the catering [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > http://www.ajhs.org/publications/chapters/chapter.cfm?documentID=241 And here I'd never heard of it (but then my ancestors weren't German). Thanks for the link. SignatureJerry Friedman > Isn't that one of those Yiddish case-or-something things? "Pork is > treyf" but "a treyfa banquet"? Like "meshuge" and "meshugener"? Something like that, but it's still an interesting question which forms were borrowed into English and why. Even in Yiddish itself, according to the Weinreich dictionary, there are two spellings for the adjective "treyf": tes-reysh-tsvey yudn-fey and tes-reysh-yud-fey. (The entry for the second is simply a cross-reference to see the first.) Weinrich also has entries for "di treyfe" meaning "non-kosher food" (tes-reysh-fey-hey; Yiddish generally uses the Hebrew spelling without vowels for Hebrew and Aramaic loanwords) as a noun -- from the inflected form of the adjective, I think, though he does not say so; and "dos tarfes" (tes-reysh-fey-vov-sof) meaning "non-kosher food; non-kosherness of food". Perhaps a better yiddishist than I can shed further light. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Even in Yiddish itself, according to the Weinreich dictionary, there are two > spellings for the adjective "treyf": tes-reysh-tsvey yudn-fey and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "dos tarfes" (tes-reysh-fey-vov-sof) meaning "non-kosher food; > non-kosherness of food". Based only on the spellings (I don't know the etymology of "treyf"), I would guess that the noun "treyfe" is not from the inflected form of the adjective, but rather that the adjective "treyf" is a back-formation from the noun "treyfe". That is, the noun "treyfe" has a Hebrew spelling, so it seems likely that that's the form in which the word was borrowed from Hebrew; but within Yiddish, it sounds like an inflected form of an adjective, and so the adjective was created by stripping the apparent suffix off it. As I say, guesswork. -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom > Based only on the spellings (I don't know the etymology of "treyf"), I > would guess that the noun "treyfe" is not from the inflected form of the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > As I say, guesswork. Good guess. Encycl Britann: "terefah, also spelled terefa, tref , or trefa (from Hebrew taraf, "to tear") , plural terefoth, terefot , or trefot any food, food product, or utensil that, according to the Jewish dietary laws (kashruth, q.v.), is not ritually clean or prepared according to law... " > > >> 1975 treife > > >> 1978 trayf [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Isn't that one of those Yiddish case-or-something things? "Pork is > treyf" but "a treyfa banquet"? Like "meshuge" and "meshugener"? That's exactly the pattern of what happens in Dutch, which has some similarities to Yiddish. An adjective at the end of a sentence ends in a consonant, but an adjective before a noun almost always ends in an "e" pronounced as a schwa. Groot, grote. Schoon, schone. Braaf, brave. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> > >> 1975 treife >> > >> 1978 trayf [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > consonant, but an adjective before a noun almost always ends in an "e" > pronounced as a schwa. Groot, grote. Schoon, schone. Braaf, brave. The exception in Dutch (as Donna was too kind to inflict on everyone) is that an adjective preceded by the indefinite article and modifying a neuter singular noun doesn't get the -e ending. Interestingly, the Yiddish adjective has a null ending in the neuter singular, though the rest of the endings are a bit more complicated than in Dutch (see a summary at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yiddish_morphology), though not quite as hairy for non-native language learners as the notorious German adjectives. Thus (if I haven't made any mistakes): Dutch: En goed kind. / Het kind is goed. Yiddish: A gut kind. / Dos kind iz gut. but German: Ein gutes Kind. / Das Kind ist gut. It would, however, be wrong to conclude from this that Yiddish is more closely related to Dutch than to (modern standard) German. Contrariwise! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Thus (if I haven't made any mistakes): > > Dutch: En goed kind. / Het kind is goed. "_Een_ goed kind", rather. (Not to be confused with "Één goed kind.") That's one. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>>Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > forgotten the right word: not "haram", anyway) pickles, of which the > kosher one is much the smaller. (Damn! My mouth's watering genteelly.) There are? I've never looked in Sainsbury's or Tesco's - I just grab the jar which has Mrs Elswood on it. I don't think I've ever encountered any other brand of whole pickled cucumbers although I may have noticed Epicure sliced ones - a feeble alternative. Among US kosher pickles, is there a distinction made between haimishe, new green, sweet and sour etc? At Bloom's in the East End you were always offered a choice. (My mouth is less genteel: I have been slavering while reading this thread.) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Tony Cooper : > Evan Kirshenbaum > >> Why would a non-kosher restaurant choose a non-kosher pickle? > > >It would, presumably, do so if the non-certified-kosher pickle was > >cheaper. There are people who sell things labeled "kosher-style > >pickles". I presume that they have customers. >Based on a thorough and detailed market research expedition (one brief > visit to my local Publix supermarket), it doesn't appear that stores > bother to carry pickles of any style that are not kosher. Your MBA should have cautioned you against this kind of extrapolation before studying different target areas: It might also mean that the overwhelming weight of your local retail clientele has Mitteleuropean-cum-Midwest tastes. I'll offer the fact that where I live "mainstream" supermarkets also carry only Kosher (or Kosher-style) pickles, while different other styles of pickles with a kick (Mediterranean, Oriental, etc.) go off the shelves like hot buns, at more than double the Kosher prices, in the alternative supermarkets/delis. > Extrapolating this thorough and detailed market research expedition, > I've determined (remember, I have an MBA)that non-kosher pickles are [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > addition of something - perhaps a spice - in their brine and could > even sell for a higher price than certified-kosher pickle spears. Good guess. This deserves a BAD (if that is the doctor degree in BA). I have had 2 takeout joints with burgers and franks in the past: Replacing the kosher pickles with the slightly more expensive ones that made a real difference on tastebuds was definitely a factor in increasing my income. > Or, > possibly, a very alluring label with grammatically correct wording > (possibly edited by UC). Nah. You are assuming that the food professional reads anything but prices. > Tony Cooper : > > Evan Kirshenbaum [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > >cheaper. There are people who sell things labeled "kosher-style > > >pickles". I presume that they have customers. ... > > My educated guess (Northwestern has a *very* well regarded graduate > > business school) is that the firms that offer kosher-style pickle [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > made a real difference on tastebuds was definitely a factor in > increasing my income. I'm amazed that people buy hamburgers based on the flavor of the pickles. Well, I wouldn't go to a place that used sweet pickles. Arguing from authority (I have a Ph. D.), I would imagine it's possible to get pickles that are kosher, "kosher", and tasty. (As I believe Tony is only pretending to ignore, that "spice" that makes them "kosher" is garlic.) I prefer not to estimate their price or what it would have done to your income. > > Or, > > possibly, a very alluring label with grammatically correct wording > > (possibly edited by UC). > > Nah. You are assuming that the food professional reads anything but > prices. That "anything" jammed my negative-polarity parser. I'd have had an easier time with "You are wrong to assume that the food professional reads anything but prices." I can't comment on "You are wrongly assuming that the food professional reads anything but prices," as the system isn't quite back up yet. SignatureJerry Friedman On Oct 26, 3:53 pm, "jerry_fried...@yahoo.com" <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Tony Cooper : ... > > Replacing the kosher pickles with the slightly more expensive ones that > > made a real difference on tastebuds was definitely a factor in > > increasing my income. > I'm amazed that people buy hamburgers based on the flavor of the > pickles. Shouldn't be a surprise: This is a business with cutthroat competition and a razor-edge margin of profit, where all one's assets are invested. The median survival is around 18 months only. Every metaphoric milligram of difference in taste can make or break you, so one has to pay attention to detail. > Well, I wouldn't go to a place that used sweet pickles. That's an excellent start. ... > > Nah. You are assuming that the food professional reads anything but > > prices. > That "anything" jammed my negative-polarity parser. I'd have had an > easier time with "You are wrong to assume that the food professional > reads anything but prices." I can't comment on "You are wrongly > assuming that the food professional reads anything but prices," as the > system isn't quite back up yet. Thanks for the tip. As a furriner with no native Eng vernacular, I have no negative-polarity sensor as long as the bookish-English grammar is OK. > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: >>> Tony Cooper : >>> Replacing the kosher pickles with the slightly more expensive ones >>> that made a real difference on tastebuds was definitely a factor in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > metaphoric milligram of difference in taste can make or break you, so > one has to pay attention to detail. And then there are some that have been in business for over 50 years, like Val's Burgers in Hayward. The city restaurant guide of San Francisco lists it, together with travel by BART instructions. http://cityguide.aol.com/sanfrancisco/restaurants/vals-burgers/v-101023213 The burgers and the shakes are like they made them back in the 'fifties. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > > <jerry_fried...@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> I'm amazed that people buy hamburgers based on the flavor of the > >> pickles. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The burgers and the shakes are like they made them back in the 'fifties. Correct. Just one rung under my favorite (Mel's, 59 years old). BTW, it looks like you were also convinced by Tony's scientific definition of "representative sample". >Tony Cooper : >> Evan Kirshenbaum [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Your MBA should have cautioned you against this kind of extrapolation >before studying different target areas: Are you kidding? One of basic concepts taught in any reputable graduate business school program is the QSD (Quick Study Determination) Theory of Market Research. You sample one group and then write a BSD (Business School Terminology) report where you bring in terms like "within acceptable standard deviation parameters" and go with it. Studies have proven that additional samples either prove the first conclusion to be correct, or prove the first conclusion to be wrong. Since there's no point in being wrong, you kick-start the program and blame the engineering department if the campaign fails. Since no one really knows what the engineering department is supposed to do, or can tell if they've done it right, this is foolproof blame-laying. Scott Adams has made a *fortune* exposing this ploy by cleverly reversing the blame-laying function. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>Your MBA should have cautioned you against this kind of extrapolation >>before studying different target areas: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in terms like "within acceptable standard deviation parameters" and go > with it. It isn't just business. According to Geoff Pullum ("Seven Deadly Sins in Journal Publishing"): The survey, you will recall, was a large and wide-ranging one. My research team surveyed no fewer than seven journals. If this does not seem very large and wide-ranging to you, think again. - The median number of speakers on whom the enture corpus of examples in an English syntax paper is checked before publication, including its author, is zero. - The median number of informants used for a study on a foreign language is one. (The person in question is known in the trade jargon as "my principal informant", which means that on the way to your informant's hut you were in the habit of saying good morning to one or two other villagers whom you met along the way, and sometimes you took note of a phrase or two that they said, if it seemed interesting.) - The median number of children used in an acquisition study is one. - The total number of experimental subjects used in Lieberman's study of the perception of intonation by linguists...was two. - The total number of Russian forms cited in Chomsky's classic presentation of the Hallean argument against phonemics...is four. - The number of languages adduced in support of Postal's claims about universals of reflexivization in ... is two, and this is the same as the number of languages given detailed discussion in ... Seven is a _big_ number by the standards of linguistics. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Usenet is like Tetris for people 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |who still remember how to read. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ ... > Studies have proven that additional samples either prove the first > conclusion to be correct, or prove the first conclusion to be wrong. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Adams has made a *fortune* exposing this ploy by cleverly reversing > the blame-laying function. They should have offered you tenure long ago. >>By "of any other sort", I meant non-kosher-style pickles, e.g., sweet >>pikles, bread-and-butter pickles, sour pickles. If the flavor called [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > not like the pickle makes a statement about the non-kosherness of the > place. I really can't figure out your point. I'm not sure if you guys have been talking past each other sincerely or in jest, or if you've gotten it straightened out by now anyway, but just to be clear: "Kosher pickle" is the name of a certain style of pickle flavoring. Whether something is a "kosher pickle" is independent of whether or not it's actually kosher (i.e., acceptable for consumption by observant Jews). -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >"Kosher pickle" is the name of a certain style of pickle flavoring. >Whether something is a "kosher pickle" is independent of whether or not >it's actually kosher (i.e., acceptable for consumption by observant Jews). While I have been able to find references to "Kosher-style pickles" on the web, all of the actual jars of "kosher pickles" that I have seen bear the "OU" trademark. That would make them "Kosher Kosher Pickles", nu? >I'm not sure if you guys have been talking past each other sincerely or in jest, or if >you've gotten it straightened out by now anyway, but just to be clear: Evan may be jesting, but I *never* jest. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > > On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 19:17:53 +1000, Stuart Chapman [...] > >>One other thing: is the sausage in the hot dog the same as a > >>frankfurt(er)? I have always assumed that a hot dog sausage is a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > But it will show up in elicited lists of "sausages". One can, with a little imagination, see the resemblance to a Vienna sausage, although the VS in cans (tins) are hard to broil and probably hard to simmer. And need a demmed small bun. /dps > "...kosher pickle spear (check)..." > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > or even grill (AmE broil) them at home, a proper hot dog has a > steamed frankfurt. You've already gotten a BS answer to the frankfurter thing. As to the pickle question, I'm here to tell you that there are indeed non-kosher cucumber pickles. In fact that in some areas of the US those things that grow in the field are called pickles. That is, the workers who pick them are picking pickles, not cucumbers, or so they would tell you. As an ex pickle factory worker, I can tell you that both kosher and non-kosher pickles came through the same assembly line (though not at the same time). As far as I could tell, the only difference was the brine. Packing kosher cucumbers does not require authoritative supervision, evidently. Signaturerzed >> "...kosher pickle spear (check)..." >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >was the brine. Packing kosher cucumbers does not require >authoritative supervision, evidently. Packing pickles might not require authoritative supervision, but *labeling* packed pickles "Kosher" certainly does require that authoritative supervision was in place. The "OU" (Orthodox Union) (or "Circle U") found on kosher products is a trademark. Pickles that are not processed under authoritative supervision are - or should be - labeled "Kosher-Style". http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0001B8W6W.01-A34S2NBKKS5E44._SCMZZZZZZZ_V1073 964084_.jpg for an example. You might mess with the US Government on labeling, but no one would mess with the Jews in America by stating that something is "Kosher" when it isn't. You same that "...kosher and non-kosher pickles came through the same assembly line...". As long as the ingredients and sub-ingredients of the product are kosher, and that the kosher products are not processed with the same equipment that non-kosher products are processed with, the product can be kosher if the product is processed in accordance with Jewish dietary law. There's no rule, though, that kosher products have to be labeled as kosher. Your pickle plant could be processing all kosher products, but just labeling some of the kosher and not labeling all of them kosher. Brine can be kosher, so different brine can be used and the product still be kosher. That "supervision" can be just one visit a year to the plant by a Rabbinic field representative. It's not like a Rabbi stands at the line as the jars are filled. and non-kosher SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Stuart Chapman wrote, in part: > "...kosher pickle spear (check)..." > > I assume that's the cucumber below the bun. Are there non-kosher > (cucumber) pickles? There are several kinds of pickles. I dislike sweet pickles, but I love both sour pickles (fermented in a salt solution) and marinated pickles (pickled in a vinegar solution). The latter types are usually prepared with dill, garlic, and a few other spices. The kosher part does not have much to do with their taste, only with their preparation and a blessing, I think. Where I grew up, "kosher" was not a part of their names. I suspect than none of the pickles were kosher, but that was in different times and in a different place. The local deli has kosher brine pickles (sour pickles) from Bulgaria on hand, and they are quite good. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ |
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