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Google 'momentarily' misuse corrected

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Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 24 Oct 2006 05:28 GMT
I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
delighted to notice that the faux pas has been removed.

I've commented on this a number of times and, a year or so ago, it
looked as if it had been dealt with. Then the error re-surfaced.

Now, after posting, it says, your post will appear 'in a moment', thus
removing the error.

Congratulations google!

I don't know if this has only been repaired for posts from
groups.google.co.uk - maybe somebody can investigate to see if other
English speaking countries (served, for example, by
groups.google.co.za) have also had the fix installed.

I did point out, in an earlier posting, that there were alternative
ways of removing the problem that could be applied to all servers like;
'in a few seconds', 'shortly', or simply leaving out the qualification.
Will - 24 Oct 2006 10:22 GMT
> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> ways of removing the problem that could be applied to all servers like;
> 'in a few seconds', 'shortly', or simply leaving out the qualification.

I must have missed your earlier posts, but I don't understand your
objection to "momentarily".  According to OneLook.com it has two
meanings:

adverb:   at any moment
adverb:   for an instant or moment

So, if GG informs the user that "Your post will appear momentarily",
then clearly they intend it to inform the user that "your post will
appear AT ANY MOMENT".  So what's your problem?  Ok, GG could have
chosen a less ambiguous word - "shortly", for example, though doubtless
the PORGs would have been up in arms about that.

Will.
Eric Walker - 24 Oct 2006 10:36 GMT
[...]

> I must have missed your earlier posts, but I don't understand your
> objection to "momentarily".  According to OneLook.com it has two
> meanings:
>
> adverb:   at any moment
> adverb:   for an instant or moment

There are many sound users of English for whom "momentarily" has only
the second of the meanings listed above.  Owing to the increasing
popularity of the once-erroneous first sense, it is now generally
recognized, but those old enough to remember the times before still
find the new use either jarring or--I suspect--rather humorous.
(Rather as some folk find "contact" as a verb humorous in many
contexts--"I'll contact him at once" still suggests to many that "he"
is about to receive a punch in the snoot.)

Considering the generous supply of words with the new meaning
(including such exotica as "soon") and the paucity of single words with
the old meaning, the corruption seems unfortunate.  If something short
and crisp was wanted, why not just rejuvenate "anon"?

But all change is progress, no?
Will - 24 Oct 2006 10:53 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> But all change is progress, no?

Of course, you are quite right.  But why would one expect more of
geeks?  I write as one such - a software developer who must perforce
read documents uttered by other geeks, for whom the English language is
as a Birmingham screwdriver to a vernier gauge - and I can tell you
from bitter experience that Lady Malaprop and her bastard progeny Lord
Typo and Lady Eggcorn are alive, and indeed thriving in code shops the
length and breadth of the globe.

Will.
Eric Walker - 24 Oct 2006 11:26 GMT
[...]

> . . . I can tell you from bitter experience that Lady Malaprop and her bastard
> progeny Lord Typo and Lady Eggcorn are alive, and indeed thriving . . . .

Oh, I've been an editor, too.  But in fairness, can we blame those
abusers?  Nobody *wants* to be an ignoramus.  What are the poor devils
to do?  No one has ever undertaken to teach them even the rudiments of
their tongue; they can't absorb it from solar radiation.

Nowadays our school systems (I speak for the U.S., but it is my
impression that things are little different elsewhere) teach pupils
zero--not very little, but *zero* about English.  Most teachers
themselves have a grossly inadequate knowledge of sound English.  It's
a cycle: the teachers don't know, can't teach what they don't know, the
pupils never learn what their teachers didn't know, and some of those
pupils then go on to become . . . teachers.

And why is that not corrected?  Because a bunch of wannabe social
pseudo-engineers have spent two generations now telling the populace
that there ain't no such thing as sound English, that whatever little
Johnny mumbles is jes' fine.

Pfui.
Steve Hayes - 24 Oct 2006 12:22 GMT
>Of course, you are quite right.  But why would one expect more of
>geeks?  I write as one such - a software developer who must perforce
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Typo and Lady Eggcorn are alive, and indeed thriving in code shops the
>length and breadth of the globe.

Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have probably
never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is very much a regional
dialect, whereas Google is worldwide.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Oct 2006 19:11 GMT
> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
> very much a regional dialect, whereas Google is worldwide.

Where "regional" encompasses not only an absolute majority of native
speakers of English, but also, I believe, an absolute majority of the
surface area in which English is spoken as a significant language by
native speakers.

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Mike Lyle - 24 Oct 2006 19:34 GMT
> > Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
> > probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> surface area in which English is spoken as a significant language by
> native speakers.

So it's a big region. Even if you don't include Canada. But chucking
one's weight about has often proved inadvisable in the longer term. The
point here -- and I don't imagine this is news to you, but I'll make it
anyway -- is that changing it wouldn't irritate NAm users, but leaving
it does irritate those non-NAms who actually notice or care. That
strikes me as a business approach less canny than I have been led to
expect from your side of the Oceans.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Oct 2006 22:23 GMT
>> > Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
>> > probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> notice or care. That strikes me as a business approach less canny
> than I have been led to expect from your side of the Oceans.

Oh, I agree that they should change it.  I just get annoyed when I see
a long-standing standard use in the majority dialect derided as an
"erroneous use" and "very much a regional dialect".  Yes, you should
change it in the UK, South Africa, and Australia.  But you should
change it there because the people who are misled by it are speaking a
"regional" dialect, even if it's one that's standard where they are
and even if it's an older dialect.  

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A. Gwilliam - 24 Oct 2006 22:31 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, Evan Kirshenbaum sung the following words:

> > > > Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them
> > > > have probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty",
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> "regional" dialect, even if it's one that's standard where they are
> and even if it's an older dialect.  

But "American English" is also a "regional dialect".  Your argument is
a bit like that of those who claim to speak without an accent.

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Eric Schwartz - 24 Oct 2006 22:41 GMT
> As we all stood and listened, Evan Kirshenbaum sung the following words:
> > Oh, I agree that they should change it.  I just get annoyed when I see
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> But "American English" is also a "regional dialect".  Your argument is
> a bit like that of those who claim to speak without an accent.

I read Evan as being annoyed by the derision, not by the
identification of the dialect as regional.  He's not claiming to speak
without an accent, in other words, but complaining that he's being
made fun of for speaking with an accent by people who themselves claim
not to have one.

-=Eric
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Oct 2006 23:25 GMT
> As we all stood and listened, Evan Kirshenbaum sung the following
> words:

>> Oh, I agree that they should change it.  I just get annoyed when I
>> see a long-standing standard use in the majority dialect derided as
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> But "American English" is also a "regional dialect".

Several of them, in fact.

> Your argument is a bit like that of those who claim to speak without
> an accent.

Not really.  It was mereley meant to counter the notion that something
is unusual to the point of being "erroneous" because it's "only common
in North America", as if that didn't account for more than two-thirds
of the speakers of the language and over half the populated area in
which the language is spoken.

It's much the same as the continual "Why do Americans insist on
calling it 'soccer' when everybody else calls it 'football'?"  When
two-thirds of the native speakers of a language use a word in a
particular way, it's really no longer a regional quirk.  Especially
when the region they use it in is bigger than the rest of the regions
combined.  

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Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 08:15 GMT
> It's much the same as the continual "Why do Americans insist on
> calling it 'soccer' when everybody else calls it 'football'?"  When
> two-thirds of the native speakers of a language use a word in a
> particular way, it's really no longer a regional quirk.  Especially
> when the region they use it in is bigger than the rest of the regions
> combined.

You're making the mistake of thinking that Yank is the same language as
English. It isn't. It is a recent creole derived from a simplified
version of English spelling, grammar and pronunciation. It has a
limited vocabulary and is well designed for foreigners to learn quickly
and easily.

English is a language with a long history, complex grammar, a large
vocabulary and a subtle pronunciation. It is not spoken much in North
America.

At the moment, most English speakers understand most Yank. Just as most
Dutch speakers understand most Afrikaans. As the two languages evolve,
this is likely to become less and less the case.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 25 Oct 2006 15:35 GMT
>> It's much the same as the continual "Why do Americans insist on
>> calling it 'soccer' when everybody else calls it 'football'?"  When
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> vocabulary and a subtle pronunciation. It is not spoken much in
> North America.

Two points.  First of all, the variety that can reasonably be
described as a creole is actually Middle English, with a substrate of
Old English and a superstrate of Norman French.  Second, the main
grammar and pronunciation differences between American English and
British English stem from the fact that, like most colonial dialects
(and other dialects relatively far from the linguistic center),
American English was more *conservative*, retaining features that were
dropped or changed back in England.  It's only in the last century or
less, when the center of the language has moved to the US (primarily
New York and Los Angeles), that this has probably reversed.

> At the moment, most English speakers understand most Yank. Just as
> most Dutch speakers understand most Afrikaans. As the two languages
> evolve, this is likely to become less and less the case.

I'm reasonably sure that, as with American English, while it has, of
course, picked up a lot of new regional vocabulary, the grammar and
pronunciation of Afrikaans is actually a relatively *old* version of
Dutch.  It's not that they changed it; it's that they didn't keep up
with linguistic innovations and held onto things that had become
"wrong".

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Buckwheat Soba - 25 Oct 2006 15:54 GMT
> Second, the main
> grammar and pronunciation differences between American English and
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> less, when the center of the language has moved to the US (primarily
> New York and Los Angeles), that this has probably reversed.

Erk, give Chicago (Third Largest City in America) some credit too.  
There's nothing conservative about Chicagoans redefinition of "pizza", for
example.

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Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 16:49 GMT
> > Second, the main
> > grammar and pronunciation differences between American English and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> There's nothing conservative about Chicagoans redefinition of "pizza", for
> example.

I'm not sure of the particular distinctive pronunciation that you point
to, however, you are right that it is part of the general trend to
simplification.

The rise of estuary 'English' in the UK is a much more recent, but
similar trend, responding to recent immigration.
Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 16:47 GMT
> >> It's much the same as the continual "Why do Americans insist on
> >> calling it 'soccer' when everybody else calls it 'football'?"  When
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> less, when the center of the language has moved to the US (primarily
> New York and Los Angeles), that this has probably reversed.

I do understand your point, and it does have merit. However you leave
out the considerable influence of a few things that lie behind my
point. Webster's 'simplification' of spelling has had an unusually
strong influence for an academic attempt at an artificial language -
much the same can be argued for the influence on Korean through the
Hangul system (in that case a beneficial move from a pictorial set of
glyphs to a phonetic scheme). Concurrent with that were grammatical
simplifications led by the incorporation of various immigrant
languages, or, rather, their simplified versions, into the language.
These led to a general enthusiasm for simplification of not only
spelling, but also grammar and vocabulary.

> > At the moment, most English speakers understand most Yank. Just as
> > most Dutch speakers understand most Afrikaans. As the two languages
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> with linguistic innovations and held onto things that had become
> "wrong".

In neither case is this accurate. The 'kitchen dutch' (as Afrikaans was
originally called) was, like Yank, a simplification of the language to
enable non-speakers to understand commands - the same process was
involved with slave owners in the US. The simplifications were
re-absorbed into, and became, in both cases, the artificial language
that developed, as they do, into the current creole. There is, I think,
a strong argument for the creole now becoming, or having become, a
separate langueat, in both cases. The difference is that the powerful
political movement launched by Verwoerd in South Africa made it an
agressively separate language. The same force has not been evident in
Yank, so the fact of the language change is the same in both countries,
but the acceptance that Yank is a new language - as Afrikaans is -
hasn't been reinforced politically.

The current alienation of Yankland from the rest of the world might
well, in the next few years, lead to such an acceptance that the
language is different generally. That is, however, as maybe, it is,
without doubt, a different language in grammatical, vocaulary and
pronunciation terms.

The diphtongs that exist in English are, for example, quite lacking in
Yank. 'News', for exampe, in English is a four part diphtong
'Ne-u-s-e', in Yank it is a two part tone: 'Noo-s'. There are many,
many more examples of this simplification of pronunciation. This
simplifies the teaching of the language considerably, but robs it of
its subtle distinctions.
Buckwheat Soba - 25 Oct 2006 16:57 GMT
> I do understand your point, and it does have merit. However you leave
> out the considerable influence of a few things that lie behind my
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> simplifications led by the incorporation of various immigrant
> languages, or, rather, their simplified versions, into the language.

Examples?

> These led to a general enthusiasm for simplification of not only
> spelling, but also grammar and vocabulary.

What examples are there of AmE grammar and vocabulary being "simpler" than
those of BrE?  Different, to be sure.

> The diphtongs that exist in English are, for example, quite lacking in
> Yank. 'News', for exampe, in English is a four part diphtong
> 'Ne-u-s-e', in Yank it is a two part tone: 'Noo-s'.

Except in those (admittedly minority) dialects of AmE where it's also
/njuz/.  And in BrE there are dialects (East Anglia?) that have /nuz/, as
people in this newsgroup have reported.

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Buckwheat Soba

Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 18:19 GMT
> > The diphtongs that exist in English are, for example, quite lacking in
> > Yank. 'News', for exampe, in English is a four part diphtong
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> /njuz/.  And in BrE there are dialects (East Anglia?) that have /nuz/, as
> people in this newsgroup have reported.

Yes, I agree, the simplification isn't restricted to the evolution of
Yank. Certainly not!

You ask for more examples, and that is a good question. I might well
garner a few, but I think that that would merit a different thread.
R J Valentine - 26 Oct 2006 03:44 GMT
} Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com writes:
...
}> At the moment, most English speakers understand most Yank. Just as
}> most Dutch speakers understand most Afrikaans. As the two languages
}> evolve, this is likely to become less and less the case.
}
} I'm reasonably sure that, as with American English, while it has, of
} course, picked up a lot of new regional vocabulary, the grammar and
} pronunciation of Afrikaans is actually a relatively *old* version of
} Dutch.  It's not that they changed it; it's that they didn't keep up
} with linguistic innovations and held onto things that had become
} "wrong".

Afrikaans is pretty much radically different from old Dutch or ordinary
dialects.  It's sort of a semi-creole that has lost huge amounts of
Germanic stuff that can't be accounted for by just a short separation.  
Sure, Dutch speakers can think they understand it, but they may not
understand as much as they think they understand.  Where's Nat?

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rjv

Garrett Wollman - 25 Oct 2006 16:54 GMT
>You're making the mistake of thinking that Yank is the same language as
>English. It isn't.

Indeed it isn't.  The latter exists, and the former does not.

-GAWollman

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Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 18:14 GMT
> >You're making the mistake of thinking that Yank is the same language as
> >English. It isn't.
>
> Indeed it isn't.  The latter exists, and the former does not.

Yank doesn't exist? No there's a peculiar view. What on earth leads you
to this bizarre conclusion? Do you really think that all these Yanks
have not been talking, all these years? Do you think that they still
speak English, despite all the evidence against it?

Do you also believe in fairies?
Garrett Wollman - 25 Oct 2006 19:47 GMT
>Yank doesn't exist? No there's a peculiar view. What on earth leads you
>to this bizarre conclusion? Do you really think that all these Yanks
>have not been talking, all these years? Do you think that they still
>speak English, despite all the evidence against it?

What evidence?  I haven't seen any (and I don't count the figments of
your imagination posted elsewhere in this thread).

-GAWollman

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wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 21:44 GMT
> >Yank doesn't exist? No there's a peculiar view. What on earth leads you
> >to this bizarre conclusion? Do you really think that all these Yanks
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> What evidence?  I haven't seen any (and I don't count the figments of
> your imagination posted elsewhere in this thread).

Evidence for what, exactly?

Are you suggesting that Yanks don't speak - understandable, but false?

Are you suggesting that Yanks speak English - I'd be facinated to hear
your evidence?

Are you suggesting that English is still spoken byYanks?

Your obection might well not be any of the above, but simply an
inchoate dislike of what you are. I don't know, If you can manage any
sort of coherent objection, please try to say what it is.

Maybe you could find a dozen people that you think are clever and they,
and you, might manage, together, to make a coherent point, in English.

If you can't manage that, why not try to make some vaguely coherent
point in Yank. I'll do my best to interpret what you think you mean.

Don't embrace your inadequacy, there's a chance for you to establish
that it isn't utter.
Garrett Wollman - 25 Oct 2006 22:04 GMT
>Are you suggesting that Yanks speak English - I'd be facinated to hear
>your evidence?

Who are these "Yanks" of which you speak?  Certainly all the ones I
know of speak English.

>Maybe you could find a dozen people that you think are clever and they,
>and you, might manage, together, to make a coherent point, in English.

Do you have an alter ego named "UraniumCommittee"?  Plonk.

-GAWollman

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Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 26 Oct 2006 00:24 GMT
>> >Yank doesn't exist? No there's a peculiar view. What on earth
>> >leads you to this bizarre conclusion? Do you really think that all
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Are you suggesting that English is still spoken byYanks?

I'd suggest that a distinct language spoken by upwards of two hundred
million people must certainly have a wide scientific literature on it.
Perhaps you could post the titles of what you consider the five or six
best scholarly works on the linguistics of this "Yank", as I believe
that you have implied it is known.

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Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2006 13:35 GMT
> I'd suggest that a distinct language spoken by upwards of two hundred
> million people must certainly have a wide scientific literature on it.
> Perhaps you could post the titles of what you consider the five or six
> best scholarly works on the linguistics of this "Yank", as I believe
> that you have implied it is known.

If you're interested, I suggest you do your own research! However, here
are two URLs to get you going:

www.uclan.ac.uk/amatas/diary/linguist.htm
www.staff.uni-marburg.de/~uffmann/questions.htm

You'll see that these are both academic sites...
LFS - 26 Oct 2006 14:16 GMT
>>I'd suggest that a distinct language spoken by upwards of two hundred
>>million people must certainly have a wide scientific literature on it.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You'll see that these are both academic sites...

You can find all sorts of material on "academic sites". The pages you
cite are very far removed from the scientific literature about which
Evan was enquiring and I don't see any links to lingusitic analyses
therefrom.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 26 Oct 2006 16:04 GMT
>> I'd suggest that a distinct language spoken by upwards of two
>> hundred million people must certainly have a wide scientific
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> You'll see that these are both academic sites...

And I'll also see that both refer to "American English".

There are contentious borderline issues, on which reputable linguists
disagree whether something is a language in its own right or a
divergent dialect of another language.  Scots, with respect to
English, for example.  The various Scandinavian languages with respect
to one another.  American English isn't nearly divergent enough.

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   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 26 Oct 2006 17:22 GMT
> There are contentious borderline issues, on which reputable linguists
> disagree whether something is a language in its own right or a
> divergent dialect of another language.

Quite.

>  Scots, with respect to
> English, for example.  The various Scandinavian languages with respect
> to one another.  American English isn't nearly divergent enough.

No, that's one view of, as you say above, a contentious issue. I've
made my view that the evidence is the other way, something that is
perfectly reasonable since, as you say, it is a contentious issue. My
contention is different from yours, but your assertion has no more
merit than mine, as I'm sure you will agree.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 26 Oct 2006 21:06 GMT
>> There are contentious borderline issues, on which reputable
>> linguists disagree whether something is a language in its own right
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
> No, that's one view of, as you say above, a contentious issue.

Not among linguists.

> I've made my view that the evidence is the other way, something that
> is perfectly reasonable since, as you say, it is a contentious
> issue. My contention is different from yours, but your assertion has
> no more merit than mine, as I'm sure you will agree.

Heavens, no.  Why would I agree to that?  

Signature

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   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |he who cannot is a fool; and he who
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   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Robert Lieblich - 26 Oct 2006 22:53 GMT
[ ... ]

> No, that's one view of, as you say above, a contentious issue. I've
> made my view that the evidence is the other way, something that is
> perfectly reasonable since, as you say, it is a contentious issue. My
> contention is different from yours, but your assertion has no more
> merit than mine, as I'm sure you will agree.

The exact borderline between being rich and being less than rich may
be contentious, but I know of no sane person who would contend that
Bill Gates is not rich or that some Skid Row bum with no assets beyond
the clothes one his back is rich.  There are close calls and there are
easy ones.  It is an easy call to state that the resemblances between
UK English and American English are so great that they are a single
language.  Your position to the contrary is unreasonable.  But then
you know that.

And I know you enjoy bandying words in support of your unreasonable
position.  I have no reason to think that my comment will deprive you
of your fun, and it might even give you more.  It just seemed worth a
minute or two to point out the particular illogic of this particular
contention.  I'm sure you'll come up with something else.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Yank who speaks English

Mike Barnes - 25 Oct 2006 09:14 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:

>> As we all stood and listened, Evan Kirshenbaum sung the following
>> words:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>is unusual to the point of being "erroneous" because it's "only common
>in North America"

Let's be clear, he didn't say the *term* was erroneous, he said the
*use* was erroneous. Big difference.

It's an erroneous *use* in the parts of the world where the word in
question means something different.

Just as it would be an erroneous use, on a site conspicuously designed
for everyday use by Americans, to write "40 degrees" meaning "40 degrees
Celsius". The "it's commonplace in most of the world" argument wouldn't
wash, and rightly so.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Mike Lyle - 25 Oct 2006 21:34 GMT
[...]
> It's much the same as the continual "Why do Americans insist on
> calling it 'soccer' when everybody else calls it 'football'?"  When
> two-thirds of the native speakers of a language use a word in a
> particular way, it's really no longer a regional quirk.  Especially
> when the region they use it in is bigger than the rest of the regions
> combined.

And, in that particular case, when it's a long-established usage in the
word's region of origin. You won't find many Rugby or Aussie Rules
people calling "soccer" an Americanism.

But what interests me about these questions is a puzzle I've mentioned
before. I don't understand why we embrace some American expressions and
reject, or at least argue over, others, and I'm reluctant to believe
it's arbitrary. Some innovations will even be perceived at a gut level
as actual threats. A few ideas, set up as Aunt Sallies.

We have a tendency sometimes to believe a conspicuous neologism is an
Americanism, even when it isn't.

To a greater or lesser extent we happily accept, and even seek out,
items of American "slang" (not to argue about that word's meaning),
especially if they represent a new idea or show an old one in a
refreshing light, or if they act as marks of group identity. In this
process the meaning sometimes changes. Those who want to express
rejection of the adopting group's values may challenge the new usage,
whether or not they themselves also use "Americanisms".

Where the AmE expresses a useful new idea, or describes some new object
or process of American origin, the introduction will be accepted
without resistance.

Particular occupational groups will sometimes adopt American terms
relating to the occupation. Where the perception is that a term is used
just to reinforce group identity, or that, though no new idea is
expressed, unfamiliar terms (of whatever origin) are adopted in order
to give the impression of originality, these new usages will generally
be challenged by non-users.

Racism. I don't mean racism against Americans, but a sense that a
locution arises from an inadequate grasp of English among recent
immigrants or their children: "These people are foreigners. How dare
they fool around with our language?" The US advertises itself as a
nation of immigrants, after all; so it's not an unnatural thought.

This "racism" idea comes up when a usage isn't simply new, but appears
to break the productive rules, or to violently wrench a word away from
its familiar meaning. Like that of many others, my own reaction to a
famous innovation was "No real native English-speaker could possibly
use 'hopefully' to mean 'they hope': it's the Germans or somebody!"
That real native speakers did, and do, has, however unconvincingly, to
be treated as an unfortunate accident.

Signature

Mike.

Gene Wirchenko - 24 Oct 2006 20:46 GMT
>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>surface area in which English is spoken as a significant language by
>native speakers.

    My understanding is that the country with the greatest number of
English speakers is China.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation:
    I have preferences.
    You have biases.
    He/She has prejudices.
Evan Kirshenbaum - 24 Oct 2006 22:40 GMT
>>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
>>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>      My understanding is that the country with the greatest number of
> English speakers is China.

Certainly not as native speakers.  If you count any level of fluency,
India, China, and the US are probably pretty close, with between 200
and 300 million each.  But counting only first language speakers,
going by the numbers at

   http://tinyurl.com/ylsxex
   <URL:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
    List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population>

the US (215 million) has more than three times the number of any other
country, and about twice that of the UK (58), Canada (20), Australia
(15), Ireland (4), South Africa (4), and New Zealand (3) combined.

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
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   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |credibility if you hadn't mispelled
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |"inteligent"

   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com
   (650)857-7572

   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Steve Hayes - 25 Oct 2006 02:41 GMT
>>>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
>>>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>and 300 million each.  But counting only first language speakers,
>going by the numbers at

That still begs the question whether the dis[putted use of "momentarily" is
accepted without reservation by all first-language speakers in every part of
North America, or even the USA.

And even if it is, it is still a region, and Google is international, and many
English speakers have not heard, and would not understand that regional usage.

Or should we all be caring less?

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

UC - 25 Oct 2006 16:58 GMT
> >>>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
> >>>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> accepted without reservation by all first-language speakers in every part of
> North America, or even the USA.

That doesn't matter. If the usage seems odd to them, they can check the
dictionery, which gives the definitions. That's what those books are
for.

> And even if it is, it is still a region, and Google is international, and many
> English speakers have not heard, and would not understand that regional usage.

They can 'gasp' look it up.
Steve Hayes - 25 Oct 2006 18:06 GMT
>> >>>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
>> >>>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>dictionery, which gives the definitions. That's what those books are
>for.

"The dictionary"?

There's only one?

Where is it kept, and how will people have access to it?

>> And even if it is, it is still a region, and Google is international, and many
>> English speakers have not heard, and would not understand that regional usage.
>
>They can 'gasp' look it up.

In many cases it's a waist of thyme, because the in regions where the
erroneous usage hasn't caught on, "the dictionary" often doesn't record it.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

UC - 25 Oct 2006 18:14 GMT
> >> >>>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
> >> >>>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> In many cases it's a waist of thyme, because the in regions where the
> erroneous usage hasn't caught on, "the dictionary" often doesn't record it.

How about Oxford? Is that British enough for thee? The SOED, 3rd
(reset, 1973) offers:

1. Every moment

2. At any moment

3. For a single moment

Now, what will you say?
Steve Hayes - 26 Oct 2006 05:20 GMT
>> >> >>>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
>> >> >>>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
>Now, what will you say?

Why look it up in "the dictionary" if you know what it means.

"Your post will appear momentarily" is clear enough.

No need to look it up -- the meaning is quite clear -- you post will appear
and thenn disappear before anyone has a chance to read it.

There is no doubt or ambiguity at all, for people who have not encountered the
other meaning.

If I read something on an international web gateway, I am not going to look up
every single word in a dictionary on the off-chance that the webmaster's
dialect is different from mine. I take the words at face value.

International web gateways should use international English. Menstruation.

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

UC - 27 Oct 2006 16:30 GMT
> >> >> >>>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
> >> >> >>>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> International web gateways should use international English. Menstruation.

I checked the New Shorter Oxford English Dictionary (ca 1992)  last
night. I gives the meaning "at any moment" with the note "Principally
NA" or something of the sort.

In any event, it is quite easy for American usage to spread to other
regions, so your complaint is silly.
Steve Hayes - 25 Oct 2006 02:34 GMT
>> Most users of Google are not geeks, and a great many of them have
>> probably never heard the erroneous use of "momentarilty", which is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>surface area in which English is spoken as a significant language by
>native speakers.

Has it spread that quickly?

Who wooda thunk it?

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Mike Barnes - 24 Oct 2006 12:52 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:

>> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
>> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>adverb:   at any moment
>adverb:   for an instant or moment

You might have missed the reference to "groups.google.co.uk" and
therefore not consulted a *British* English dictionary, which almost
certainly would have labelled that "at any moment" meaning as "North
American".

Many American imports enrich British English, but this isn't one of
them. It simply causes confusion.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Will - 24 Oct 2006 15:01 GMT
[...]
> You might have missed the reference to "groups.google.co.uk" and
> therefore not consulted a *British* English dictionary, which almost
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Many American imports enrich British English, but this isn't one of
> them. It simply causes confusion.

I don't disagree.  However, the OP referred to GG's use of
"momentarily" as a faux pas, which it ain't, exactly, since a valid
(albeit pondial) definition fits the bill.

"Soon" would surely have been better, but as I endeavoured to explicate
up-thread individuals of a geek-like persuasion are oftentimes guilty
as charged with respect to clunky, piss-elegant, obfuscating
documentation.  Innit.

Will.
Mike Barnes - 24 Oct 2006 15:26 GMT
In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:

>[...]
>> You might have missed the reference to "groups.google.co.uk" and
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>"momentarily" as a faux pas, which it ain't, exactly, since a valid
>(albeit pondial) definition fits the bill.

A foreign definition cuts no ice with me. Or with the OP, I suspect.
Especially when it's a potential source of confusion.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

UC - 24 Oct 2006 16:07 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Mike Barnes
> Cheshire, England

What part of the Webster Third New International definition, which I
quoted above, don't you understand?
Mike Barnes - 24 Oct 2006 17:36 GMT
In alt.usage.english, UC wrote:

>> In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>What part of the Webster Third New International definition, which I
>quoted above, don't you understand?

Gosh, how quaint. I don't think I've heard that particularly dreary
formula for quite a few years.

The key part of my reply, which you seem to have ignored, is the word
"foreign".

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Peter Duncanson - 24 Oct 2006 18:16 GMT
>> In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>What part of the Webster Third New International definition, which I
>quoted above, don't you understand?

Do *you* understand this?

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/momentarily?view=uk

   momentarily    
     adverb
     1 for a very short time.
     2 N. Amer. very soon.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=51499&dict=CALD

   momentarily
   adverb
   1 for a very short time:
       She was momentarily confused by the foreign road signs.
   
   2 US very soon:
       I'll be ready to leave momentarily.

Webster's Third New International gives no indication of the
geographical boundaries within which each meaning of "momentarily"
is used.
Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

A. Gwilliam - 24 Oct 2006 19:25 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, UC sung the following words:

> > In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> What part of the Webster Third New International definition, which I
> quoted above, don't you understand?

Oddly enough, a dictionary of American English published in the United
States for American readers is not generally considered to be an
authoritative reference for British English.

Signature

A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"

UC - 24 Oct 2006 20:11 GMT
> [google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]
>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> States for American readers is not generally considered to be an
> authoritative reference for British English.

Oh, really? Are you an expert on M-W's editorial practices? You
apparently have no idea that they do, in fact, mark regional use!
A. Gwilliam - 24 Oct 2006 20:47 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, UC sung the following words:

> > [google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Oh, really? Are you an expert on M-W's editorial practices? You
> apparently have no idea that they do, in fact, mark regional use!

Firstly, British English is not "regional", it's "national".

Secondly, what's so difficult to understand?  You've quoted from a
dictionary prepared by an American publisher for American readers.  If
I told you that X was valid in American English, and you disagreed, you
would hardly be swayed if I gave as "proof" a definition from a
dictionary published in the UK by a British publisher.

The meaning of "momentarily" in British English is "for a very short
period of time".  It is incorrect to use this word to mean "soon" on a
British website in just the same way as it would be incorrect for an
American website to use the word "biscuit" with the British sense.

Signature

A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"

UC - 24 Oct 2006 21:01 GMT
> [google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Firstly, British English is not "regional", it's "national".

It's European English, a region of the globe. Don't be silly. North
America is a region, so are the British Isles.

> Secondly, what's so difficult to understand?  You've quoted from a
> dictionary prepared by an American publisher for American readers.

No, you nitwit. Webster is an INTERNATIONAL dictionary. It was intended
as such from the 1890 edition, Webster's Interbnational Dictionary. The
New International appeared in 1913. The  New International, 2nd
Edition, appeared in 1934. Webster's Third  New International appeared
in 1961.

>  If
> I told you that X was valid in American English, and you disagreed, you
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> British website in just the same way as it would be incorrect for an
> American website to use the word "biscuit" with the British sense.

That's simply false.

> --
> A. Gwilliam
> To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"
A. Gwilliam - 24 Oct 2006 21:45 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, UC sung the following words:

> > [google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> International, 2nd Edition, appeared in 1934. Webster's Third  New
> International appeared in 1961.

Ah, it's international because they say it is.  That must be why the
"World Series" involves teams from around the world, then.

> >  If
> > I told you that X was valid in American English, and you disagreed,
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> That's simply false.

Oh, just f.ck off.

Signature

A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"

Eric Walker - 24 Oct 2006 22:03 GMT
[...]

> Oh, just f.ck off.

Well, you know, there's the problem (and I am as culpable as any): so
long as we continue to respond to his nonsenses as if they were real
posts to a usenet group, we get what we deserve.

I, for one, stop here and now.  Anyone else want to take the pledge?
A. Gwilliam - 24 Oct 2006 22:15 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, Eric Walker sung the following words:

> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> I, for one, stop here and now.  Anyone else want to take the pledge?

I would only add that as long as he [?] continues to post misleading
advice to non-native speakers at a.u.e. then it will be necessary to
post clarifying responses to avoid the unwary becoming misinformed.

Signature

A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"

UC - 24 Oct 2006 22:33 GMT
> [google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> advice to non-native speakers at a.u.e. then it will be necessary to
> post clarifying responses to avoid the unwary becoming misinformed.

Coming from you, this breaks the irony meter. I know British literary
usage better than you do. I read Trollope, Dickens, Collins (WW) and
numerous other British authors. I use British spelling and punctuation
often.
Eric Walker - 24 Oct 2006 23:05 GMT
[...]

> I would only add that as long as he [?] continues to post misleading
> advice to non-native speakers at a.u.e. then it will be necessary to
> post clarifying responses to avoid the unwary becoming misinformed.

I understand: that was long a major factor in my own reckoning.  But at
some point, we must (I think) stop letting him use that bait to extract
perpetual responses to his perpetual nonsenses, else he and his follies
will trail endlessly down every thread.

If no one responds, the sub-threads all dead-end.  We must ultimately
trust that even the most naive and uninformed reader will grasp that a
series of ferocious declarations *none of which are answered* are
something no one else finds worth answering.

To be sure, the bait is quite honeyed: I had a hard time just a moment
ago on another thread resisting a reply to another of his farragos,
just *because* it was so bad that, as the famous phrase goes, "It isn't
even wrong."  But unless we all (or almost all) bite the bullet, he is
pulling the group around behind him on a leash.  If only a few here
choose to killfile or otherwise ignore him, that will ease our personal
loads, but will leave the group as a forum still quite polluted.

Take the pledge!
jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 24 Oct 2006 23:27 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> perpetual responses to his perpetual nonsenses, else he and his follies
> will trail endlessly down every thread.
...

I suggest that if it looks like he's misleading a naive non-native,
answer the naif's question correctly and maybe add that UC is seldom
helpful.  But as I've suggested before, responding to UC himself is
wasting your time, unless you need a foe worthy of rather weak steel.

Signature

Jerry Friedman

Eric Walker - 25 Oct 2006 00:47 GMT
[...]

> I suggest that if it looks like he's misleading a naive non-native,
> answer the naif's question correctly and maybe add that UC is seldom
> helpful.  But as I've suggested before, responding to UC himself is
> wasting your time, unless you need a foe worthy of rather weak steel.

We have a Bingo[1].  Well said.

[1]Taxi-driver shorthand from radio calls: there is a cab already on
the exact spot.
UC - 24 Oct 2006 22:30 GMT
> [google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Ah, it's international because they say it is.  That must be why the
> "World Series" involves teams from around the world, then.

No sequitur, dumbass....

> > >  If
> > > I told you that X was valid in American English, and you disagreed,
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Oh, just f.ck off.

Oh, my, what big arguments you use...
Steve Hayes - 25 Oct 2006 02:47 GMT
>No, you nitwit. Webster is an INTERNATIONAL dictionary. It was intended
>as such from the 1890 edition, Webster's Interbnational Dictionary. The
>New International appeared in 1913. The  New International, 2nd
>Edition, appeared in 1934. Webster's Third  New International appeared
>in 1961.

Has it ever lived up to its inflated claims?

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
http://people.tribe.net/hayesstw
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 08:08 GMT
> No, you nitwit. Webster is an INTERNATIONAL dictionary. It was intended
> as such from the 1890 edition, Webster's Interbnational Dictionary.

In Yank, 'International' means 'the whole of Yankland' - as in the
'international baseball championship'.

So, yes, in Yank terms, Webster is an 'international' dictionary.

However, in English terms, it is parochial and not international.
Lars Enderin - 25 Oct 2006 08:58 GMT
Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com skrev:

>> No, you nitwit. Webster is an INTERNATIONAL dictionary. It was intended
>> as such from the 1890 edition, Webster's Interbnational Dictionary.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> However, in English terms, it is parochial and not international.

Not always. In golf on TV, you often see a list of "Internationals in
the field", meaning non-US nationals.
Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 11:09 GMT
> Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com skrev:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Not always. In golf on TV, you often see a list of "Internationals in
> the field", meaning non-US nationals.

I don't have a plebvision and I'm not interested in golf, so I didn't
know that - thank you for the information. It's an odd usage as you'd
expect somebody from any one particular country wouldn't be an
'international', they'd be a foreigner if somewhere else. To be an
'international', you'd need to, say, represent the European Union or,
like Socrates, be a citizen not of one country, but of the world (today
that would mean being stateless or having multiple passports or
nationalities).

I suppose, that, as a dual national, I'd be an 'international person'
in these terms.
A. Gwilliam - 25 Oct 2006 16:03 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com sung the
following words:

> It's an odd usage as you'd
> expect somebody from any one particular country wouldn't be an
> 'international', they'd be a foreigner if somewhere else.

Cf. "ethnic".

Signature

A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"

UC - 24 Oct 2006 21:15 GMT
> > Oh, really? Are you an expert on M-W's editorial practices? You
> > apparently have no idea that they do, in fact, mark regional use!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> British website in just the same way as it would be incorrect for an
> American website to use the word "biscuit" with the British sense.

Why do I put up with dolts like you? Don't you know what
'INTERNATIONAL' means?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webster's_Dictionary
Mike Barnes - 24 Oct 2006 22:19 GMT
In alt.usage.english, UC wrote:

>> Oddly enough, a dictionary of American English published in the United
>> States for American readers is not generally considered to be an
>> authoritative reference for British English.
>
>Oh, really? Are you an expert on M-W's editorial practices? You
>apparently have no idea that they do, in fact, mark regional use!

There's a world of difference between a dictionary that marks regional
use and one that's generally considered an authoritative reference for
regional use.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Will - 24 Oct 2006 16:49 GMT
> In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:
[...]
> >I don't disagree.  However, the OP referred to GG's use of
> >"momentarily" as a faux pas, which it ain't, exactly, since a valid
> >(albeit pondial) definition fits the bill.
>
> A foreign definition cuts no ice with me. Or with the OP, I suspect.
> Especially when it's a potential source of confusion.

I would agree that the choice of word was infelicitous.  However,
Google is an American outfit and if you're going to argue pondialism
then you might as well get them to spell "colour" correctly.

Will.
HVS - 24 Oct 2006 16:48 GMT
On 24 Oct 2006, Will wrote

>> In alt.usage.english, Will wrote:
> [...]
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> argue pondialism then you might as well get them to spell
> "colour" correctly.

The analogy doesn't really work, since adding/omitting the "u"
doesn't change the meaning of the word.

Closer analogies would be the use of "rubber" or "fag", and assuming
that the pondian difference didn't matter at all.

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Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

UC - 24 Oct 2006 17:01 GMT
> On 24 Oct 2006, Will wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Closer analogies would be the use of "rubber" or "fag", and assuming
> that the pondian difference didn't matter at all.

Main Entry:momentarily
Pronunciation:|m*m*n.|ter*l*, -li
Function:adverb

1 : for a moment *television serials that momentarily distract suburban
housewives from their ironing Wolcott Gibbs* *only momentarily troubled
by such reports Publishers' Weekly*
2 : INSTANTLY *the friar groaned, but almost momentarily recovered his
emotion Elizabeth Helme*
3 : at any moment : from moment to moment *momentarily expected his
coming Charlotte Bront** *when some draperies momentarily expected T
are hung R.H.Rovere*
4 : in a few minutes *I'll be there momentarily*
A. Gwilliam - 24 Oct 2006 19:26 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, Will sung the following words:

> I would agree that the choice of word was infelicitous.  However,
> Google is an American outfit and if you're going to argue pondialism
> then you might as well get them to spell "colour" correctly.

American they may be, but if they're using a UK domain name then they
should do us the courtesy of using British English.

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A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"

R H Draney - 24 Oct 2006 20:04 GMT
A. Gwilliam filted:

>As we all stood and listened, Will sung the following words:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>American they may be, but if they're using a UK domain name then they
>should do us the courtesy of using British English.

Then it's settled...Google UK will say "in a moment", and the nationally
undifferentiated google.com site, located [1] in the US, will say "momentarily"
in accordance with local custom....r

[1] To the extent that an internet entity can be said to have a physical
location, that is...I'm told that there is no "big Google server farm", but that
the mighty dot-com juggernaut is distributed over thousands of small PCs all
over the place....

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"Keep your eye on the Bishop.  I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

Graeme Thomas - 24 Oct 2006 22:18 GMT
>[1] To the extent that an internet entity can be said to have a physical
>location, that is...I'm told that there is no "big Google server farm", but that
>the mighty dot-com juggernaut is distributed over thousands of small PCs all
>over the place....

I'm told that they don't use PCs, but specially-built computers without
most of the things that are normally on a PC.  They don't, for example
have video cards.

I'm also told that "thousands" is a gross underestimate.  (It may not be
exactly 144,000, but something like that.)
Signature

Graeme Thomas

Garrett Wollman - 24 Oct 2006 23:54 GMT
>I'm told that [Google] don't use PCs, but specially-built computers without
>most of the things that are normally on a PC.  They don't, for example
>have video cards.

Most servers don't (unless for political reasons they have to run
Windows).

In 1999, I and some other people got a tour of what was then the
Hotmail data center (before Hotmail was fully assimilated into
Microsoft).  Their setup then consisted primarily of standard PC
motherboards -- which may well have had (unused) on-board video --
mounted on a steel slide-out shelf with plastic stand-offs.  Also
sitting on the shelf were a hard drive and a power supply.  You could
fit about thirty of these in a standard 19x72-inch rack.  In that
facility, they had about three thousand such machines, plus a smaller
number of routers, switches, and database servers.

When one of these systems died (several did every week) they would
just throw out the dead part and stick a new one on the same shelf.
The system would reinstall itself and join the server pool
automatically.

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Graeme Thomas - 25 Oct 2006 00:53 GMT
>>I'm told that [Google] don't use PCs, but specially-built computers without
>>most of the things that are normally on a PC.  They don't, for example
>>have video cards.
>
>Most servers don't (unless for political reasons they have to run
>Windows).

Video was just an example.

>In 1999, I and some other people got a tour of what was then the
>Hotmail data center (before Hotmail was fully assimilated into
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>facility, they had about three thousand such machines, plus a smaller
>number of routers, switches, and database servers.

The report that I read about Google's servers suggested that they'd
started out with just such a system: stripped-down PCs with standard PC
motherboards.  As their requirements grew they developed their own
motherboards, with only the things they required on them.  The Google
boards don't have connectors for other boards; if a facility is required
that needs a daughterboard on a standard PC, it's incorporated onto the
motherboard.  The point is that Google require so many of the things
that the savings made by not having unused parts outweighs the cost of
the design.

>When one of these systems died (several did every week) they would
>just throw out the dead part and stick a new one on the same shelf.
>The system would reinstall itself and join the server pool
>automatically.

That's true of the Google setup, as well.

Signature

Graeme Thomas

Mike Page - 27 Oct 2006 15:13 GMT
>>[1] To the extent that an internet entity can be said to have a physical
>>location, that is...I'm told that there is no "big Google server farm", but that
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>I'm also told that "thousands" is a gross underestimate.  (It may not be
>exactly 144,000, but something like that.)

A recent article, in Business Week I think, suggested there were
approaching half a million servers and the major criterion in
deciding location was the cost of electrical power. IIRC Google
is now located just next to a hydo dam because they could
negotiate a cheap long term deal for electricity to power the
servers, and more importantly, the cooling system.

Mike 'just on my lunch break' Page
matt271829-news@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Oct 2006 11:53 GMT
> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> ways of removing the problem that could be applied to all servers like;
> 'in a few seconds', 'shortly', or simply leaving out the qualification.

Well, I still see "momentarily". (Not that it bothers me, because I'm
happy that "momentarily" can mean "in a moment" as well as "for a
moment" - even though this meaning is usually reckoned to be AmE and
I'm from the UK.)
Django Cat - 24 Oct 2006 14:49 GMT
> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
> delighted to notice that the faux pas has been removed.

Next time you post I thinkyou may find that Google is using both
'momentarily' and 'in a moment', alternately, as it has been doing for
some  months.

DC
Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 24 Oct 2006 17:34 GMT
> > I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> > an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 'momentarily' and 'in a moment', alternately, as it has been doing for
> some  months.

Actually, I tested it with another post to a different group and they
still had it right. You might be shown to be correct after this one,
but how very peculiar of them.

Why on earth would anybody be so foolish as to go to the trouble of
misusing a word alternately? Unless, of course, google know that some
posts are likely to disappear shortly after appearing. This has indeed
happened to some postings that I've made recently (not to google,
though) so they have indeed appeared momentarily.

Is google perhaps being accurate in that it says that posts will appear
momentarily if it intends to discard them a short while later, and that
they will appear in a moment if it intends to leave them as they are?

It is surely preferable that they should be honest in this way than to
suggest that they perversely wish to be literate only alternately, a
bizarre perversity indeed.
Mike Barnes - 24 Oct 2006 20:23 GMT
In alt.usage.english,  wrote:
>[Google's message]
>Why on earth would anybody be so foolish as to go to the trouble of
>misusing a word alternately?

Your request will be satisfied by different servers from time to time.
It's likely that you're seeing a difference between the servers rather
than one server behaving inconsistently.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 24 Oct 2006 17:37 GMT
> > I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> > an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 'momentarily' and 'in a moment', alternately, as it has been doing for
> some  months.

When I posted my reply, using, this time, groups.google.co.za, I saw
that they'd bogged it again - so you might be right.

Isn't it rather worse that an outfit could realise that it was wrong
and then half fix it than it would have been if they'd simply persisted
pig-headedly in their error? I know that we'll never know, but it would
be interesting to know exactly what has gone through the head or heads
involved in this peculiar behaviour. Actually, it might not be the
least bit interesting, but I'm an optimist.
UC - 24 Oct 2006 17:45 GMT
> > > I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> > > an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> involved in this peculiar behaviour. Actually, it might not be the
> least bit interesting, but I'm an optimist.

But, and here's the point, 'IT'S NOT WRONG!
Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 24 Oct 2006 17:55 GMT
> > > > I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> > > > an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> But, and here's the point, 'IT'S NOT WRONG!

That isn't the point - and capitals like that are usually an indication
of a nutter.

In English, 'momentarily' means 'for a moment'. It might well be
different in Yank, which is, presumably, your point. So I've no
objection to google using Yank for Yank URLs (groups.google.com, for
example), but, if it is going to have groups for other languages, it
ought to put them in other languages.

It would be wrong, in Russian postings, from a Russian URL, to use
'momentarily' to describe the posting of something to usenet because it
doesn't mean that in Russian. For exactly the same reason it is wrong
to do it in postings by posters intending to post in English. In the
UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and other places
where English is spoken, 'momentarily' means 'for a moment', so, just
as it would be wrong from a Russian group to try to use it to mean 'in
a moment', so it is wrong in these.

Being wrong is relative, to some extent. 'Jolly' means gay in English,
but beautiful in French (of course the French also spell it with an
'i', which helps there, if you're reading it).
UC - 24 Oct 2006 18:20 GMT
> > > > > I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> > > > > an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> In English, 'momentarily' means 'for a moment'.

I posted the W3NI defintion. That is ONE sense of 4 or so. Context
makes clear which sense is meant, asi always does.

> It might well be
> different in Yank, which is, presumably, your point. So I've no
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> 'momentarily' to describe the posting of something to usenet because it
> doesn't mean that in Russian.

I may be assuming too much about your intellect by saying this, but
'momentarily'  is not a Russian word, unless it is a newish loan word
from English.

> For exactly the same reason it is wrong
> to do it in postings by posters intending to post in English. In the
> UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and other places
> where English is spoken, 'momentarily' means 'for a moment', so, just
> as it would be wrong from a Russian group to try to use it to mean 'in
> a moment', so it is wrong in these.

Are you saying these other senses are not current in all
English-speaking areas?
Webster is usually pretty good about indicating regional usage, and
there is no such note here:

Main Entry:momentarily
Pronunciation:|m*m*n.|ter*l*, -li
Function:adverb

1 : for a moment *television serials that momentarily distract suburban
housewives from their ironing Wolcott Gibbs* *only momentarily troubled
by such reports Publishers' Weekly*
2 : INSTANTLY *the friar groaned, but almost momentarily recovered his
emotion Elizabeth Helme*
3 : at any moment : from moment to moment *momentarily expected his
coming Charlotte Bront** *when some draperies momentarily expected T
are hung R.H.Rovere*
4 : in a few minutes *I'll be there momentarily*
Mike Barnes - 24 Oct 2006 20:28 GMT
In alt.usage.english, UC wrote:
>Webster is usually pretty good about indicating regional usage, and
>there is no such note here:
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>are hung R.H.Rovere*
>4 : in a few minutes *I'll be there momentarily*

From what's been said by several native speakers in this thread, it
should be obvious that while that dictionary might be "usually pretty
good", it's not perfect.

Signature

Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 08:04 GMT
> > > > > > I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> > > > > > an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> 'momentarily'  is not a Russian word, unless it is a newish loan word
> from English.

Well done! That is exactly the point: 'in a moment' is not an English
meaning for 'momentarily'.
UC - 25 Oct 2006 17:01 GMT
> > I may be assuming too much about your intellect by saying this, but
> > 'momentarily'  is not a Russian word, unless it is a newish loan word
> > from English.
> >
> Well done! That is exactly the point: 'in a moment' is not an English
> meaning for 'momentarily'.

Is this typical of your obtuseness, or a special effort on your part?
OF COURSE  'in a moment' IS an English meaning for 'momentarily'. It's
in the MW dictionary. 'Russian' is a different language using a
different alphabet, and  'momentarily' is not a Russian word AT ALL.
T.H. Entity - 25 Oct 2006 18:05 GMT
>>That is exactly the point: 'in a moment' is not an English
>> meaning for 'momentarily'.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>in the MW dictionary. 'Russian' is a different language using a
>different alphabet, and  'momentarily' is not a Russian word AT ALL.

Yet your only rationale for railing against the splitting of
infinitives in English is that "zu + INF" is unsplittable in German.
Isn't German, like Russian, a different language using -- at least
partially -- a different alphabet too?

Make your mind up, UC -- are other-language analogies in or out?

--
THE

"If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper
uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries."
-- Peter Moylan
Peter.H.M.Brooks@gmail.com - 25 Oct 2006 18:21 GMT
T. H. Entity wrote:

> >>That is exactly the point: 'in a moment' is not an English
> >> meaning for 'momentarily'.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Make your mind up, UC -- are other-language analogies in or out?

A good point, a fair point, and a rational point, all reasons why you
are unlikely to get a reply that makes any sense from uncoordinated
(UC).
UC - 25 Oct 2006 18:27 GMT
T. H. Entity wrote:

> >>That is exactly the point: 'in a moment' is not an English
> >> meaning for 'momentarily'.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Make your mind up, UC -- are other-language analogies in or out?

I don't follow you. You're confusing word with structures. "Zu +
infinitive", "te + infinitive", and "to + infinitive" are all common
feature of related Germanic languages (German, Dutch, English).

German uses the Latin alphabet with a few special characters, which are
dipthongs (ae, oe, ue) written with marks called umlauts:

ö, ä, ü

The two dots above the volels a, o, and u are shortened forms of 'e'.

There is also the letter ß which is 'sz' or 'ss'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9F
Django Cat - 24 Oct 2006 14:50 GMT
> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
> delighted to notice that the faux pas has been removed.

Next time you post I think you may find that Google is using both
'momentarily' and 'in a moment', alternately, as it has been doing for
some  months.

DC
Django Cat - 24 Oct 2006 14:50 GMT
> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
> delighted to notice that the faux pas has been removed.

Next time you post I think you may find that Google is using both
'momentarily' and 'in a moment', alternately, as it has been doing for
some  months.

DC
UC - 24 Oct 2006 15:04 GMT
> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> ways of removing the problem that could be applied to all servers like;
> 'in a few seconds', 'shortly', or simply leaving out the qualification.

I see no real reason for concern. To say "the meteor was visible only
momentarily" means that it could be seen for only a short time. To say
"the doctor will be with you momentarily" means that I should expect to
see him walk in the door within about 90 seconds at most. Of course,
they could be lying, and I may have to wait 10 minutes, and THAT is a
misuse of 'momentarily'.
UC - 24 Oct 2006 15:28 GMT
> > I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> > an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> they could be lying, and I may have to wait 10 minutes, and THAT is a
> misuse of 'momentarily'.

Main Entry:momentarily
Pronunciation:|m*m*n.|ter*l*, -li
Function:adverb

1 : for a moment *television serials that momentarily distract suburban
housewives from their ironing Wolcott Gibbs* *only momentarily troubled
by such reports Publishers' Weekly*
2 : INSTANTLY *the friar groaned, but almost momentarily recovered his
emotion Elizabeth Helme*
3 : at any moment : from moment to moment *momentarily expected his
coming Charlotte Bront** *when some draperies momentarily expected T
are hung R.H.Rovere*
4 : in a few minutes *I'll be there momentarily*
A. Gwilliam - 24 Oct 2006 19:26 GMT
[google.public.support.general is not recognised by my server]

As we all stood and listened, UC sung the following words:

> > > I've just posted a message from google (using
> > > groups.google.co.uk) to an English speaking group
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> are hung R.H.Rovere*
> 4 : in a few minutes *I'll be there momentarily*

As you mentioned in a different post (but not this one), you've quoted
from an American dictionary.  The OP was questioning the language used
on a UK website.

Fowler refers to this use of "momentarily" as "foolish novelty-hunting".

Signature

A. Gwilliam
To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull"

Phil Payne - 26 Oct 2006 15:15 GMT
> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
> delighted to notice that the faux pas has been removed.

As of a few seconds ago, it's back.
R H Draney - 26 Oct 2006 19:14 GMT
Phil Payne filted:

>> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
>> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
>> delighted to notice that the faux pas has been removed.
>
>As of a few seconds ago, it's back.

It was momentarily fixed....r

Signature

"Keep your eye on the Bishop.  I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

Steve Hayes - 11 Nov 2006 01:51 GMT
>> I've just posted a message from google (using groups.google.co.uk) to
>> an English speaking group (alt.usage.english) and been amazed and
>> delighted to notice that the faux pas has been removed.
>
>As of a few seconds ago, it's back.

And as of a few seconds ago, it's gone again.

Your message will appear in Blogger Help Group in a moment.

Is what i saw!

Signature

Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

 
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