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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006"cheers and tigers"
Could you please tell me the exact meaning of this expression and where it comes from? "cheers and tigers" as in, for instance, "with many rousing cheers and tigers for the good work" This expression was used in American English starting ca. 1860. Thank you. > Could you please tell me the exact meaning of this expression and > where it comes from? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > work" > This expression was used in American English starting ca. 1860. Does this passage deal with US college football games? You may find cheers and tigers are two varieties of encouraging chant, as led by cheerleaders, perhaps specific to particular colleges (tigers to Princeton.)  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> Could you please tell me the exact meaning of this expression and >> where it comes from? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >encouraging chant, as led by cheerleaders, perhaps >specific to particular colleges (tigers to Princeton.) Princeton University was the College of New Jersey in 1860. It was re-named in the late 1890s. Maybe. Check the website at http://www.princeton.edu/main/about/history/ where it says "In 1896 when expanded program offerings brought the College university status, the College of New Jersey was officially renamed Princeton University in honor of its host community of Princeton." Now check http://www.princeton.edu/~oktour/virtualtour/Hist08-Tiger.htm where it says "Originally, Princeton's mascot was the lionseen by the administration as the most regal animal. However, in 1867 the sophomore baseball team decided to adorn orange ribbons with black numerals. The orange and black combination stuck and by the early 1880s florid sports writers began to refer to Princeton's teams as the Tigers." No mention of the college being called the College of New Jersey, and clear mention of Princeton. At any rate, the Princeton Tiger mascot came after the tiger cheer. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >Could you please tell me the exact meaning of this expression and >where it comes from? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >This expression was used in American English starting ca. 1860. >Thank you. You posted the same question to aeu, and it was answered there. When you are posting the same question to both groups, it's better to cross-post so any answers appear in both groups. The answer is provided at http://tigernet.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/locomotive.asp SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>Could you please tell me the exact meaning of this expression and >>where it comes from? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The answer is provided at > http://tigernet.princeton.edu/~ptoniana/locomotive.asp Will keep in mind for the next time. Thanks, Herb > Could you please tell me the exact meaning of this expression and > where it comes from? "cheers and tigers" as in, for instance, "with > many rousing cheers and tigers for the good work" This expression > was used in American English starting ca. 1860. Thank you. That's a new one on me. I'm not sure what the connection is, but one of the earliest mentions I see is in reference to the Boston Light Infantry, nicknamed the "Tigers", in 1858: The grand dinner to the Boston Tigers by their hosts, the New-York National Guard, was given at the Ator House. ... The "President of the United States" was the leading toast, and found a respondent in the person of Emanuel B. Hart, Surveyor of the Port. The Tigers were toasted with 17 round cheers and a tiger, to which the Tigers responded by toasting their hosts with thirty-one cheers and three "tigers." [_New York Times_, 6/15/1858] There's another from the prior year: The crowd here gave three cheers and a tiger for Daniel D. Conover, the new Street Commissioner, which he acknowledged by a graceful wave of his hat, declaring as he drove away that he should assume his duties in the morning. [6/16/1857] The OED cites it to 1845: 8. _U.S. slang_. A shriek or howl (often the word 'tiger') terminating a prolonged and enthusiastic cheer; a prolongation, finishing touch, final burst. 1845 _Florence de Lacey_ 28/1 Nine cheers for old Tipone, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, and a tiger. Of course, none of that explains why "tiger". One of the OED quotes implies that an 1859 dictionary thought that the Boston "Tigers" may well have been the origin: 1859 BARTLETT _Dict. Amer._ (ed. 2) s.v., In 1826 the [Boston Light] Infantry visited New York.., and while there the Tigers at a public festival awoke the echoes..by giving the genuine howl... Gradually it became adopted on all festive and joyous occasions, and now 'three cheers and a tiger' are the inseparable demonstrations of approbation in that city [New York]. So perhaps a cheer peculiar to them, picked up by others. Oh, hell. I'm going to leave all that in, since I went to the trouble of typing it, but here's what appears to be the answer: Origin of the "Tiger" Shout.--An exchange thus gives the origin of the outburst of human articulation, a cross between a clap of thunder and a drove of galloping omnibuses, called the "tiger," as follows:-- In 1822 the Boston Light Infantry, under Capt. Mackintosh and Liet. Robert C Winthrop visited Salem and encamped in Washington Swuare, and during their stay a few of the members indulged in sports incidental to camp duty, when some visitor exclaimed to one who was a little rough, "Oh, you Tiger!" It became a catchword and as a turm of playful reproach, "You're a Tiger," was adopted as one of the peculiar phrases of the corps. On the route to Boston some musical genius sang an impromtu [sic] line, "Oh, you Tigers don't you know," to the air of "Rob Roy McGregor oh!" Of course the appelation soon induced the Tigers by name to imitate the actions of the tiger, and the "growl" was introduced, and at the conclusion of three cheers "a tiger" was invariably called for. In 1826 the Infantry visited New York, being the first volunteer corps to make a trip from that city to another State, and while there the Tigers at a public festival awoke the echoes and astonished the Gothamites by giving the genuine howl. It pleased the fancy of the host, and gradually it became adopted on all festive and joyous occasions, and now "three cheers and a tiger" are the inseparable demonstrations of approbation in that city. It is still a marked peculiarity of the corps, and where the true tone is heard, one may be sure that the Boston Light Infantry, Captain C.O. Rogers, is not more than a mile distant. [_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 11/28/1857] SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When you're ready to break a rule, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |you _know_ that you're ready; you Palo Alto, CA 94304 |don't need anyone else to tell |you. (If you're not that certain, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |then you're _not_ ready.) (650)857-7572 | Tom Phoenix http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum quotes the New York Times: > The grand dinner to the Boston Tigers by their hosts, the New-York > National Guard, was given at the Ator House. ... The "President of > the United States" was the leading toast, and found a respondent > in the person of Emanuel B. Hart, Surveyor of the Port. ... If Hart was ever President of the United States, I think I would have heard about it, so I guess "respondent" doesn't mean the person being toasted. What is it, then -- something sort of like the person who seconds a motion? The MC declares a toast to the President, Hart echoes "to the President", and then everyone else joins in? SignatureMark Brader "It is hard to believe that any Biblical passage, Toronto no matter how powerful, could make an entire msb@vex.net Soviet submarine crew speak English and not even realize they were doing it." --Mark Leeper > Evan Kirshenbaum quotes the New York Times: >> The grand dinner to the Boston Tigers by their hosts, the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > seconds a motion? The MC declares a toast to the President, Hart > echoes "to the President", and then everyone else joins in? Poking around, I find things like At the meeting held at Pittsburg, in December, 1896, Judge Smith responded to the toast, "The Crawford County Bar," which gives a correct history of the bar from its incipiency to that time, and we give it in full. http://tinyurl.com/ye5s5b <URL:http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/archives/crawford/ history/1905/161.html> from 1905. The article then goes on for several paragraphs in the first person (in which the speaker refers to himself as "the respondent to this toast"), which appear to be the "response" to the toast. So it appears that at the time, the custom was to give a toast to someone and then for somebody to actually give a little speech or tell an anecdote about the topic that has been toasted. If that's true, Hart (who, it appears, had been a congressman earlier in the decade) would have told stories about then-president James Buchanan. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Bullwinkle: You sure that's the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | only way? Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Rocky: Well, if you're going to be | a hero, you've got to do kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | stupid things every once in (650)857-7572 | a while. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> Evan Kirshenbaum quotes the New York Times: >>> The grand dinner to the Boston Tigers by their hosts, the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> President, Hart echoes "to the President", and then everyone else >> joins in? [...] Perhaps the respondent acknowleges the toast as the best available representative of the subject, when the subject is absent or inarticulate. That would fit with the word used. > So it appears that at the time, the custom was to give a toast > to someone and then for somebody to actually give a little speech or > tell an anecdote about the topic that has been toasted. If that's > true, Hart (who, it appears, had been a congressman earlier in the > decade) would have told stories about then-president James Buchanan. Thanks! SignatureMark Brader "I like to think of [this] as self-explanatory." Toronto "I hope *I* think of [it] that way." msb@vex.net -- Donald Westlake: "Trust Me On This" >> Could you please tell me the exact meaning of this expression and >> where it comes from? "cheers and tigers" as in, for instance, "with [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > Infantry, Captain C.O. Rogers, is not more than a mile distant. > [_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 11/28/1857] You did quite some digging! Thanks, it is appreciated. Cheers, Herb ... > Origin of the "Tiger" Shout.--An exchange thus gives the origin of > the outburst of human articulation, a cross between a clap of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Infantry, Captain C.O. Rogers, is not more than a mile distant. > [_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 11/28/1857] That deserves a locomotive. [(Accelerando] Ray Ray Tiger, tiger, tiger, Sis sis sis boomboomboombah! Evan! Evan! Evan! (Yes, we've done skyrockets and Princeton. And you can substitute a Stanford cheer as appropriate.) SignatureJerry Friedman > (Yes, we've done skyrockets and Princeton. And you can substitute a > Stanford cheer as appropriate.) For someone of my vintage, that would be S-T-A. S-T-A. S-T-A. N. F-O-R. F-O-R. F-O-R. D. Stanford. Stanford. Rah. And yes, those are periods, not exclamation points. Try not to put too much excitement into your voice. And don't rush. The other cheer was [accel.] L! E! L! A! N! D! S! T! A! N! F! O! R! D! J! U! N! I! O! R! U! N! I! V! E! R! S! I! T! Y! [a tempo] Leland! Stanford! Junior! University! Organized 1891! Goooooooooo Cardinal! led by somebody pointing to the elements of the seal on a sweatshirt. http://smi-web.stanford.edu/people/dugan/stanford-seal.gif I see that they've recently redone the seal: http://deri.stanford.edu/Stanford-seal.gif and the word "Organized" is history (as are the little trees). SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Reality is that which, when you 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |stop believing in it, doesn't go Palo Alto, CA 94304 |away. | kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | Philip K. Dick (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> (Yes, we've done skyrockets and Princeton. And you can substitute a >> Stanford cheer as appropriate.) [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >and the word "Organized" is history (as are the little trees). That is an interesting use of "organized". Is it synonymous with "founded" or "established", or did the university exist in some "unorganized" form before 1891? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [re the Stanford seal] >>and the word "Organized" is history (as are the little trees). > > That is an interesting use of "organized". Is it synonymous with > "founded" or "established", or did the university exist in some > "unorganized" form before 1891? 1891 was when it actually opened its doors. The Founding Grant was written in 1885 and the building started in 1887. The first president was hired in 1891, and presumably that's when the first professors were hired, as well, so perhaps that's what they meant. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Never attempt to teach a pig to 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |sing; it wastes your time and Palo Alto, CA 94304 |annoys the pig. | Robert Heinlein kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > http://smi-web.stanford.edu/people/dugan/stanford-seal.gif > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > and the word "Organized" is history (as are the little trees). On the other hand, there is now a motto! Not something you expect a long-established<*> institution to be adding. It makes me wonder if there was a still earlier version of the seal that did have the motto and then it was dropped on one of the occasions when the US went to war against Germany. <*> Note to British readers: in California, 1891 is a long time ago. SignatureMark Brader | "Europe contains a great many cathedrals, which were Toronto | caused by the Middle Ages, which means they are very old, msb@vex.net | so you have to take color slide photographs of them." | -- Dave Barry My text in this article is in the public domain. >> http://smi-web.stanford.edu/people/dugan/stanford-seal.gif >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > motto and then it was dropped on one of the occasions when the US > went to war against Germany. There's a transcript of a 1995 speech by then-president Gerhard Casper entitled "Die Luft der Freiheit weht - On and Off" at http://tinyurl.com/ycuv7f <URL:http://www.stanford.edu/dept/pres-provost/ president/speeches/951005dieluft.html> that seems to imply that the answer may be yes. I think I remember seeing the seal both with and without it while I was there in the '80s. The motto itself goes back to the beginning of the university. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I believe there are more instances 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |of the abridgment of the freedom of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the people by gradual and silent |encroachments of those in power kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |than by violent and sudden (650)857-7572 |usurpations. | James Madison http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ [...] Not to answer your post, but to comment on the Subject line: "Cheers" and "Tigers" don't go together right now -- not in Detroit, anyway. (However, we do cheer the Tigers for reaching the level they did. It's just that we wanted a repeat of 1968, when the St. Louis Cardinals became the "Breakfast of Champions.") SignatureMaria Resident of southeast Michigan, near Detroit. There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > did. It's just that we wanted a repeat of 1968, when the St. Louis > Cardinals became the "Breakfast of Champions.") To add another historical note to your digression, the Cardinals beat the Tigers in the WS in 1934. The span 1934-2006 holds the record of being the longest between WS meetings between two teams representing the same two cities. SignatureBlinky T. "Michiganian 1947-1981" Shark > > [...] > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > being the longest between WS meetings between two teams representing the > same two cities. What have you done with 1967 and 1968? SignatureBob Gibson and Mickey Lolich >> > [...] >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > What have you done with 1967 and 1968? Ignored them, since they're irrelevant to the measure of the span-of-years record I cited. Anticipating confusion, I tried very hard to word that as clearly as I could. I apparently failed. Let me try a different approach: The furthest apart (in years) that two teams representing the same cities and having the same names have been World Series opponents is the 72 years between the Cardinals and Tigers appearances in the 1934 and 2006 contests. Rough parallel: That the highest age I've reached is 59 years (my personal record) is not invalidated by my also having spent 10 years between my ages of 25 and 35. This baseball record is comprised of two components. 1. The Cardinals and Tigers represented St. Louis and Detroit, respectively, in both the 1934 and 2006 World Series (as versus, for instance, the Dodgers playing in year X representing Brooklyn and in year Y representing Los Angeles. 2. The time between their first appearances a opponents in the World Series and their last appearance as opponents in the World Series - 72 years - is the record for the criteria mentioned in 1., above. Bonus: And in 1967, the World series opponents were St. Louis and the Boston Red Sox, the latter being distinctly not the Detroit Tigers. Similarly, Detroit's appearance opposite the San Diego Padres in 1984 is irrelevant, as is Detroit's appearance in 1945 against the Chicago Cubs, and other such matchups. SignatureBlinky RLU 297263 Killing all posts from Google Groups The Usenet Improvement Project: http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html >> > [...] >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >What have you done with 1967 and 1968? Uh-oh, here comes Bucky (Soba, not Dent) with an extended version of Applied Tet Theory. -- THE "If you or I use a word inappropriately, that's an error. If a newspaper uses a word inappropriately, that's a citation source for the dictionaries." -- Peter Moylan >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >did. It's just that we wanted a repeat of 1968, when the St. Louis >Cardinals became the "Breakfast of Champions.") Speaking of breakfasts, I ordered hot cereal the other morning, and the girl didn't know what I meant. Must I say porridge to be understood? SignatureCharles Riggs On 31 Oct 2006, Charles Riggs wrote > Speaking of breakfasts, I ordered hot cereal the other morning, > and the girl didn't know what I meant. Must I say porridge to be > understood? I would have thought so. To me, porridge is oats, not cereal, and "cereal" refers only to stuff like cornflakes. If you asked me for "hot cereal", I would have guessed you meant something like cornflakes with hot milk. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 31 Oct 2006, Charles Riggs wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If you asked me for "hot cereal", I would have guessed you meant > something like cornflakes with hot milk. Yuck, soggy! SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 31 Oct 2006, LFS wrote >> On 31 Oct 2006, Charles Riggs wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Yuck, soggy! I'd also have guessed that there's no accounting for taste... (Would you say, though, that "cereal" does or doesn't include "porridge"?) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: > On 31 Oct 2006, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > (Would you say, though, that "cereal" does or doesn't include > "porridge"?) Doesn't, at least in the breakfast sense. SignatureDavid ===== > On 31 Oct 2006, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > (Would you say, though, that "cereal" does or doesn't include > "porridge"?) I appreciate the distinction you're making and in general I would agree that porridge is a separate category of breakfast food. But I find my Quaker Oats in the cereal aisle at the supermarket. I order porridge in UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian differences to know that if I want the equivalent to porridge in the US I have to ask for "hot cereal" as Charles did. But I probably wouldn't do that because there are so many other delightful things to eat at breakfast in the US. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >I order porridge in UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian >differences to know that if I want the equivalent to porridge in the >US I have to ask for "hot cereal" as Charles did. The idiomatic request would be for "oatmeal". "Hot cereal" is a marketing category that also includes things like Cream of Wheat and several other now-mostly-forgotten products. (I don't think, though, that "hot cereal" could be said to include grits, even when eaten for breakfast. But I could be wrong; I left the South long ago.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >The idiomatic request would be for "oatmeal". "Hot cereal" is a >marketing category that also includes things like Cream of Wheat and >several other now-mostly-forgotten products. (I don't think, though, >that "hot cereal" could be said to include grits, even when eaten for >breakfast. But I could be wrong; I left the South long ago.) Grits are a side, where cereal - hot or cold - might be considered a course. While it's possible, no one would normally order just grits as they order just cereal. And, usually, something else is ordered with grits on the side or as a side: "Two eggs, over easy, with grits and toast". SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >> The idiomatic request would be for "oatmeal". "Hot cereal" is a >> marketing category that also includes things like Cream of Wheat and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > with grits on the side or as a side: "Two eggs, over easy, with grits > and toast". Is it an "idiomatic" request, Tony? Cheers, Sage > The idiomatic request would be for "oatmeal". "Hot cereal" is a > marketing category that also includes things like Cream of Wheat and > several other now-mostly-forgotten products. (I don't think, though, > that "hot cereal" could be said to include grits, even when eaten for > breakfast. But I could be wrong; I left the South long ago.) The box of grits I have in front of me refers to "breakfast grits" and "meaty breakfast grits," but not hot cereal. (Also "fried grits," "grits and sausage bake," "cheese grits casserole," and "corn product.") Mmmm. I think I know what I'm having for lunch. SignatureSML > The box of grits I have in front of me refers to "breakfast grits" and > "meaty breakfast grits," but not hot cereal. (Also "fried grits," "grits > and sausage bake," "cheese grits casserole," and "corn product.") Hmm, up there I'd think they'd call it polenta. SignatureBuckwheat Soba > > The box of grits I have in front of me refers to "breakfast grits" and > > "meaty breakfast grits," but not hot cereal. (Also "fried grits," "grits > > and sausage bake," "cheese grits casserole," and "corn product.") > > Hmm, up there I'd think they'd call it polenta. I was surprised to see the box on the shelf of my local grocery store -- it's just a normal store, though, none o' that high-falutin' polenta. ("Up"? Where are you these days, Buckwheat?) SignatureSML >> Hmm, up there I'd think they'd call it polenta. > > I was surprised to see the box on the shelf of my local grocery store -- > it's just a normal store, though, none o' that high-falutin' polenta. > > ("Up"? Where are you these days, Buckwheat?) I'm still down in New York (LCIA). SignatureBuckwheat Soba Garrett Wollman filted: >>I order porridge in UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian >>differences to know that if I want the equivalent to porridge in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >that "hot cereal" could be said to include grits, even when eaten for >breakfast. But I could be wrong; I left the South long ago.) Grits is (or should it be "grits are"?) sold on the "cereal" aisle of the supermarket when they're sold at all...what's more, they're at whichever end of that aisle carries oatmeal, Cream of Wheat, Malt-O-Meal, and Maypo, which as far as I'm concerned makes it a "hot cereal" by association.... Rice, for some reason, is sold on another aisle altogether, usually near the noodles...this in spite of the fact that it is often served hot, in a bowl, as the starchy component of breakfast, and is undeniably a cereal on botanical grounds...it's a "hot cereal", but only in the same technical sense that a tortilla is a "pancake".... I have no default category whatsoever for kasha varnishkes....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. R H Draney wrote, in part: > Garrett Wollman filted, in part: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Malt-O-Meal, and Maypo, which as far as I'm concerned makes it a "hot > cereal" by association.... If I buy a box of grits in the cereal aisle, and prepare it for breakfast, it's cereal -- just as Cream of Wheat and oatmeal are. If I order "grits and gravy" for breakfast in a restaurant, it's a side dish for the bacon and eggs I order as well. I wouldn't call the grits "cereal" in that instance. I have no reason to offer for my usage. That's just the way it is. SignatureMaria (Snip) > If I order "grits and gravy" for breakfast in a restaurant, it's a side > dish for the bacon and eggs I order as well. I wouldn't call the grits > "cereal" in that instance. > > I have no reason to offer for my usage. That's just the way it is. Grits and gravy? The mind boggleth. Cheers, Sage The sage entity posted thusly: >(Snip) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Grits and gravy? The mind boggleth. At least the gravy would add flavour. I can't imagine who would have thought of putting corn in lye until it lost every characteristic of corn, then eating it. > The sage entity posted thusly: >> (Snip) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Grits and gravy? The mind boggleth. Well, such a combination exists, but "grits and gravy" is not what I meant to say. "Biscuits and gravy" is what I like. > At least the gravy would add flavour. To many things. > I can't imagine who would have thought of putting corn in lye until it > lost every characteristic of corn, then eating it. http://www.grits.com/discript.htm http://tinyurl.com/crnqo I like hominy grits. Hominy, too. (Hominy other things should I mention?) SignatureMaria >> The sage entity posted thusly: >>> (Snip) [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >I like hominy grits. Hominy, too. (Hominy other things should I >mention?) I've always heard them called, simply, "grits". SignatureCharles Riggs Charles Riggs filted: >>I like hominy grits. Hominy, too. (Hominy other things should I >>mention?) > >I've always heard them called, simply, "grits". There are "hominy grits" and "white corn grits"...similar, but to the connoisseur, not identical...sort of like mayonnaise and Miracle Whip....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Charles Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > connoisseur, not identical...sort of like mayonnaise and Miracle > Whip....r I'm no connoisseur; my family called them hominy grits, and therefore, so did I. But what do I get when I order "grits" in a restaurant? Beats me. SignatureMaria >Charles Riggs filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >There are "hominy grits" and "white corn grits"...similar, but to the >connoisseur, not identical...sort of like mayonnaise and Miracle Whip....r There are connoisseurs of grits? I've always thought of them as a dish of last resort. Obviously, I am not a connoisseur of the stuff. I'm with you on mayonnaise. SignatureCharles Riggs >>Charles Riggs filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >There are connoisseurs of grits? I've always thought of them as a dish >of last resort. Unless you call them "polenta". ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>>Charles Riggs filted: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Unless you call them "polenta". Isn't "polenta" corn meal? I think there's a BIG difference between corn meal and grits. >The Hatunen entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >Isn't "polenta" corn meal? I think there's a BIG difference between >corn meal and grits. From Wikipedia: Polenta is very similar to corn grits, a common dish in the cuisine of the Southern United States, with the difference that grits are usually made from coarsely ground hominy (see nixtamalization, which is the process of removing the hull from the kernel of the corn before grinding). When properly cooked, grits and polenta have similarly smooth textures, "grit" referring to the texture of the dried corn before cooking ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >grits and polenta have similarly smooth textures, "grit" >referring to the texture of the dried corn before cooking After looking around the net, I am still convinced that "corn = hominy = grits", modulo minor variations in the processing of same, and that polenta is cornmeal. Oleg Lego filted: >After looking around the net, I am still convinced that "corn = hominy >= grits", modulo minor variations in the processing of same, and that >polenta is cornmeal. If "minor variations" embraces soaking or not soaking the corn in lye as well as removing or not removing the hulls, I concede the point.... On a similar subject, "nacre" or "mother of pearl" is simply oyster snot....t Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Oleg Lego filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >On a similar subject, "nacre" or "mother of pearl" is simply oyster snot....t Ooh, Ron, you're so romantic... SignatureRobin Herts, England >>Oleg Lego filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ooh, Ron, you're so romantic... Thanks, Eth. SignatureRay UK [...] > >On a similar subject, "nacre" or "mother of pearl" is simply oyster snot....t > > Ooh, Ron, you're so romantic... 'Ullo, 'ullo, 'ullo! SignatureMike. The R H Draney entity posted thusly: >Oleg Lego filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >On a similar subject, "nacre" or "mother of pearl" is simply oyster snot....t In the same way that alcohol is yeast piss, and the bubbles in your beer are yeast farts. > The R H Draney entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > In the same way that alcohol is yeast piss, and the bubbles in your > beer are yeast farts. And then there is bee poop. Pat Durkin filted: >> The R H Draney entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >And then there is bee poop. If you're talking about honey, that's "bee barf"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >> The R H Draney entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >> > And then there is bee poop. Who lost her shoop And doesn't know where to find them? SignatureRay UK >The R H Draney entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >In the same way that alcohol is yeast piss, and the bubbles in your >beer are yeast farts. And flowers are the sex organs of plants. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Charles Riggs wrote [to ron]: > There are connoisseurs of grits? I've always thought of them as a dish > of last resort. Obviously, I am not a connoisseur of the stuff. [...] If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become frustrated later on if the dish is simply not to be had anywhere in Rightpondia). SignatureMaria > If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring some > grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become frustrated > later on if the dish is simply not to be had anywhere in Rightpondia). Do you do them with butter and salt, or in a heathen manner? SignatureSML >> If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring >> some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become >> frustrated later on if the dish is simply not to be had anywhere in >> Rightpondia). > > Do you do them with butter and salt, or in a heathen manner? Something tells me I'd better say "with butter and salt." SignatureMaria >>> If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring >>> some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Something tells me I'd better say "with butter and salt." Why, Maria? Do you shrink from being thought a heathen? Seems to me that heathens are very important in the scheme of things, especially in the context of food, since, untrammelled by the culinary correctness of the true believers, they are probably the people most likely to experiment and find delicious new ideas. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>> If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring >>>> some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Why, Maria? Do you shrink from being thought a heathen? Of course. > .......... Seems to me > that heathens are very important in the scheme of things, especially > in the context of food, since, untrammelled by the culinary > correctness of the true believers, they are probably the people most > likely to experiment and find delicious new ideas. The thing is, I haven't _made_ grits in years. When I did, I served them (it?) with sugar and butter, but my kids didn't like grits for some reason. Anyway: I simply consume grits in restaurants these days, usually with butter and maybe a sugar substitute. Or with gravy. No salt. My mother may have put milk in the grits for me when I was small, but I could be confusing them with oatmeal or Cream of Wheat. People say grits taste very bland. Well, so would oatmeal and other hot cereals without certain add-ins, which you get automatically if you buy them in "just add hot water and eat" containers. SignatureMaria >>>>> If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring >>>>> some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >cereals without certain add-ins, which you get automatically if you buy >them in "just add hot water and eat" containers. Am I the only one who keeps being reminder of Ivor Cutler's "Gruts"? See http://www.gruts.com/misc/faq/why-gruts/ SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" [...] > The thing is, I haven't _made_ grits in years. When I did, I served them > (it?) with sugar and butter, but my kids didn't like grits for some [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > cereals without certain add-ins, which you get automatically if you buy > them in "just add hot water and eat" containers. Leaving for another day whether or not Maria is a food heathen, and, if she is, whether or not it's a good thing, can anybody tell me where to get grits in England? I want to try one or two of the recipes at http://southernfood.about.com/cs/gritsrecipes/a/grits_recipes.htm (I'm assuming that grits are indeed different from polenta, which you can get anywhere.) SignatureMike. >Leaving for another day whether or not Maria is a food heathen, and, if >she is, whether or not it's a good thing, can anybody tell me where to >get grits in England? I want to try one or two of the recipes at >http://southernfood.about.com/cs/gritsrecipes/a/grits_recipes.htm Give it a few days to see if grits are available locally, and - if not - toss me an email with your snail mail info and I will be delighted to mail you a care package. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >Leaving for another day whether or not Maria is a food heathen, and, if > >she is, whether or not it's a good thing, can anybody tell me where to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > - toss me an email with your snail mail info and I will be delighted > to mail you a care package. That's very kind of you, Tony, and if my enthusiasm holds out I may take you up on it. With an American offering to send a food parcel, I feel I should be hearing Vera Lynn on the wireless. SignatureMike. >> >Leaving for another day whether or not Maria is a food heathen, and, if >> >she is, whether or not it's a good thing, can anybody tell me where to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >take you up on it. With an American offering to send a food parcel, I >feel I should be hearing Vera Lynn on the wireless. When I last heard her speak her voice was not what it was. She's still with us -- only 89. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > When I last heard her [Vera Lynn] speak her voice was not what it was. > She's still with us -- only 89. An email I received just a day or two ago: Here's a toast... "To All the Girls We've Loved Before..." Brigette Bardot 71 Stella Stevens 68 Sophia Loren 71 Gina Lollobrigida 78 Deborah Kerr 94 Lena Horne 88 Kay Starr 83 Patti Page 78 Annette Funicello 63 Barbara Eden 71 Angie Dickenson 74 Doris Day 81 Joan Collins 72 Julie Christie 64 Leslie Caron 74 Carroll Baker 74 Ann-Margret 64 Debra Padget 72 Julie Andrews 70 Ursula Andress 69 Rita Moreno 74 Jean Simmons 76 Julie Newmar 72 Kim Novak 72 Jane Powell 76 Debbie Reynolds 73 Shirley Temple 77 Jane Russell 84 Kathryn Grayson 83 Esther Williams 82 Elke Sommer 65 Gale Storm 83 Jill St John 65 LizTaylor 73 Mamie Van Doren 74 SignatureMaria, another Annette (agewise) The Maria entity posted thusly: >> When I last heard her [Vera Lynn] speak her voice was not what it was. >> She's still with us -- only 89. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >LizTaylor 73 >Mamie Van Doren 74 Maria, another Annette (agewise) What a coincidence! > An email I received just a day or two ago: > > Here's a toast... "To All the Girls We've Loved Before..." > > Brigette Bardot 71 Your email must be out-of-date. Brigitte Bardot was 72 last September. SignatureAlec McKenzie usenet@<surname>.me.uk >> An email I received just a day or two ago: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Your email must be out-of-date. Brigitte Bardot was 72 last >September. I think we can probably safely add a year or three to almost all the ages quoted. (Ann-Margret only 64? Hmm.) SignatureMillicent Tendency (TEFKATHE) > Alec McKenzie wrought: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I think we can probably safely add a year or three to almost all the > ages quoted. (Ann-Margret only 64? Hmm.) But I thought women had the right to modify the numbers a bit. After all, we look younger than we are (which men don't, generally). <smile> SignatureMaria >> When I last heard her [Vera Lynn] speak her voice was not what it was. >> She's still with us -- only 89. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >LizTaylor 73 >Mamie Van Doren 74 Betty Page 83 ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * The Mike Lyle entity posted thusly: >> >Leaving for another day whether or not Maria is a food heathen, and, if >> >she is, whether or not it's a good thing, can anybody tell me where to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >take you up on it. With an American offering to send a food parcel, I >feel I should be hearing Vera Lynn on the wireless. Over there? Over there? >The Mike Lyle entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >Over there? Over there? I have a vague memory of the "Bundles for Britain" program where, I think, we shipped package of used clothing to the UK after WWII. I'm too young to remember it when it was going on, but I've come across it in reading. Not much about it come up with Google: "This was a national program started prior to WW II and I believe run by the American Red Cross. In addition to sending care packages to the British people, the Red Cross furnished yarn for knitting and crocheting. I think the choices were sweaters, scarves and for more advanced, mittens." "Bundles for Britain benefit parties and sewing meetings were held at the Clearwater Garden Center and Sassers Grill, while private Teas for British Aid were held in Clearwater homes." "During World War II, the Library housed a Red Cross service project, and allowed a "Bundles for Britain" festival to be held on the premises." And, a page of things by a guy who collect Bundles for Britain memorabilia: http://tinyurl.com/yn5q3m SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL The Tony Cooper entity posted thusly: >>The Mike Lyle entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >too young to remember it when it was going on, but I've come across it >in reading. > - - - much snippage --- Whoosh! >The Tony Cooper entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Whoosh! Just thread drift. CARE packages and a WWII singer made me think of the Bundles for Britain program. I just didn't want to start a new thread. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >I have a vague memory of the "Bundles for Britain" program where, I >think, we shipped package of used clothing to the UK after WWII. "during WWII" > I'm >too young to remember it when it was going on, but I've come across it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >"This was a national program started prior to WW II From the British perspective that was "early in WWII". For us WWII started on September 3rd, 1939. >and I believe run >by the American Red Cross. In addition to sending care packages to the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >and allowed a "Bundles for Britain" festival to be held on the >premises." From the receiving end: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/womens_voluntary_service.htm The Women's Voluntary Service ... The WVS also played a major role in the collection of clothing required for the needy. In October 1939, Lady Reading broadcast to the United States about the need for clothing in the UK. The broadcast led to large quantities of clothing (known as 'Bundles for Britain') being sent over to Great Britain by the American Red Cross. These were distributed from WVS Emergency Clothing Stores. ... I had not heard of the Bundles for Britain program before you mentioned it, Tony. The reason may be that the items were unbundled on receipt by the WVS, pooled and then distributed as needed. The whole page makes interesting reading. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring >>>> some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >true believers, they are probably the people most likely to experiment >and find delicious new ideas. That Hester Blumenthal was on the telly just now doing Black Forest Gateau. You've never seen such a faff, but I expect it tasted wonderful. I liked the idea of spraying Kirsch from an atomiser while you ate it, tho'. >>>>> If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring >>>>> some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > tasted wonderful. I liked the idea of spraying Kirsch from an > atomiser while you ate it, tho'. That's *Heston*. SignatureRay UK mUs1Ka <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> had it: > > That Hester Blumenthal was on the telly just now doing Black > > Forest Gateau. You've never seen such a faff, but I expect it > > tasted wonderful. I liked the idea of spraying Kirsch from an > > atomiser while you ate it, tho'. > > That's *Heston*. Just like the M4 service station. SignatureDavid ===== > mUs1Ka <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Just like the M4 service station. After which I always like to think he was named, in celebration of its cuisine. He was good last week on treacle tart and bangers and mash, too. Interesting that he poached the sosses before frying them, and then fried them only lightly. His "The Fat Duck" is apparently now being called the best restaurant in the world. He's one of the few celebrity chefs I feel I'd probably like personally, but you can't really tell. I kept his recipe for stewed oxtail from the paper, and am determined to try it one day; but the finicky complicatedness is way out of my usual style. SignatureMike. The Mike Lyle entity posted thusly: >> mUs1Ka <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Interesting that he poached the sosses before frying them, and >then fried them only lightly. I live in a very small town, and am sometimes called upon to fry up sausages for a "pancake breakfast", which is usually part of a larger celebration or community event. We use a largish vat filled with water at the boil, and drop them in for a while before putting them on the griddle to brown them. They get to the griddle fully cooked, but looking not very appetizing, and leave in a state of perfection. It's a great method, because we can keep ahead of the crowd that way, which would be nearly impossible if we had to cook from frozen to fully browned on the griddle. We always get rave reviews and many kind words about the quality of our sausages. [...] > We always get rave reviews and many kind words about the quality of > our sausages. In that case you won't be needing the following simple little recipe (sorry: more than one page): http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,23009-2414042,00.html SignatureMike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > (sorry: more than one page): > http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,23009-2414042,00.html OK, I've read that and I can see that someone with lots of time on their hands and a fondness for proper sausages might follow the recipe. Now tell me why anyone would want gelled butter (mixed with agar) to put on their mash. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > tell me why anyone would want gelled butter (mixed with agar) to put on > their mash. Yeah - what is that about? I have never heard of "gelled butter" before. It sounds very unappetising. Of course, now someone will come along and tell me that I've been eating every day for the last ten years. I don't care; it still sounds horrid. Fran >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > recipe. Now tell me why anyone would want gelled butter (mixed with > agar) to put on their mash. It sounds dreadful. The point of the butter is so that it melts and you can dip the rest of the mash in it. The Mike Lyle entity posted thusly: >[...] >> We always get rave reviews and many kind words about the quality of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >(sorry: more than one page): >http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,23009-2414042,00.html Wow! Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> had it: > > mUs1Ka <mUs1Ka@NOSPAMexcite.com> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > celebrity chefs I feel I'd probably like personally, but you can't > really tell. I don't watch pure cookery programmes so I've never even seen the man. But he was on Desert Island Discs last weeks, so I know who he is. I do watch programmes about food, especially Rick Stein, who I hope I should like in person. SignatureDavid ===== [Hester Bloomingdale] > I don't watch pure cookery programmes so I've never even seen the > man. But he was on Desert Island Discs last weeks, so I know who he > is. > > I do watch programmes about food, especially Rick Stein, who I hope I > should like in person. Watch Hester. It's not a pure cookery programme. It's about food and it's about science. Well, sciency stuff. > [Hester Bloomingdale] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Watch Hester. It's not a pure cookery programme. It's about food and > it's about science. Well, sciency stuff. Well, thermometers and a critical attitude to the size of ice crystals, anyway. I liked it when Ms Bloemfontein made ice cream, using liquid nitrogen, almost in the presence of the cow. SignatureMike. >> [Hester Bloomingdale] >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > crystals, anyway. I liked it when Ms Bloemfontein made ice cream, > using liquid nitrogen, almost in the presence of the cow. Ooh, yes. Ice cream, from cow to table in less than four minutes. Ms B has to be the only person I know who classifies liquid nitrogen as a picnic necessity! SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>>>>> If B and I ever make it over to Ireland, we'll just have to bring >>>>>> some grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >That's *Heston*. Yup, she's the one. [...] > >> That Hester Blumenthal was on the telly just now doing Black > >> Forest Gateau. You've never seen such a faff, but I expect it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yup, she's the one. Punchline of joke I'm not prepared to tell. Should you wish to reconstruct, an identification parade was involved. SignatureMike. >>> That Hester Blumenthal was on the telly just now doing Black >>> Forest Gateau. You've never seen such a faff, but I expect it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yup, she's the one. Hester Bloomingdale, very popular with Terry Wogan. She and Hugh Fearlessly-Eatsitall are my favourite watching chefs just now. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Amethyst Deceiver <spam@lindsayendell.co.uk> had it: > >>> That Hester Blumenthal was on the telly just now doing Black > >>> Forest Gateau. You've never seen such a faff, but I expect it [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Hester Bloomingdale, very popular with Terry Wogan. She and Hugh > Fearlessly-Eatsitall are my favourite watching chefs just now. Ah, Eton Hugh - he's another chef I do watch, because he doesn't make cookery programmes, but does make programmes about food. SignatureDavid ===== The the Omrud entity posted thusly: >Amethyst Deceiver <spam@lindsayendell.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Ah, Eton Hugh - he's another chef I do watch, because he doesn't make >cookery programmes, but does make programmes about food. I watch very few cooking shows, but occasionally see one in passing, that catches my interest. One such was an episode of "The Surreal Gourmet". The episode featured a dessert that I tried a few weeks after seeing it, and that went over VERY well with some young nephews and nieces. It consisted of pound cake cut into strips and toasted in the oven, making them look just like french fries, which were served in cardboard containers obtained from a local Wendy's. This was accompanied by raspberry puree served in a red ketchup squeeze-bottle. When I brought it to the table, the reaction was pretty much as expected, with the youngest lad (about 11 at the time), saying "No thanks, I don't think I could eat fries for dessert". They all ate dessert in the end, and loved it. The same cooking show featured "green eggs and ham", made from largish roundish slices of some sort of green melon, topped with half-balls of cantaloupe (for the yolks), with a couple of strips of prosciutto beside them. > That Hester Blumenthal was on the telly just now doing Black > Forest Gateau. You've never seen such a faff, but I expect it > tasted wonderful. I liked the idea of spraying Kirsch from an > atomiser while you ate it, tho'. For the last time, there's no 'c' in ... Oh. Sorry. Never mind. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Sorry, captain. Convenient 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |technobabble levels are dangerously Palo Alto, CA 94304 |low. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> That Hester Blumenthal was on the telly just now doing Black >> Forest Gateau. You've never seen such a faff, but I expect it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Oh. Sorry. Never mind. Right. Because I have cousins named Kirschbaum. With a 'c'. However, I never have asked them if their name ever included the plural "-en-baum" (or would that have been "Kirschenbaumen". No, I guess not. We never say Tannenbaumen, do we?) The Maria entity posted thusly: >Charles Riggs wrote [to ron]: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become frustrated >later on if the dish is simply not to be had anywhere in Rightpondia). What, they don't have cardboard in Ireland? >Charles Riggs wrote [to ron]: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >grits and cook them up. You may become a convert (and become frustrated >later on if the dish is simply not to be had anywhere in Rightpondia). If B and you can organise it, bring half-a-dozen, hefty Maine lobster tails on dry ice, instead. Cook and I will happily supply the hot butter, and so forth, OK? (Such a deal.) I don't know what your airline will think of this arrangement these days, so perhaps you should check them into baggage. Anyway, keep your grits and cook them *up*, if you must, over there. Up is used redundantly in some interesting ways. For another example, compare "I'll call you up " to, simply, "I'll call you". Tangentially, there's the hilarious "I'll knock you up", in Hibernian-English. SignatureCharles Riggs >> Charles Riggs wrote [to ron]: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > airline will think of this arrangement these days, so perhaps you > should check them into baggage. Half-a-dozen? No problem -- except how we'd get them from Maine. Would we have to fly to Maine and then to Ireland? Or are Maine lobsters sold everywhere? (As you can see, I don't buy lobsters. Seeing them in the tank, the implication is that I would have to kill them. No thanks. (Btw, I had a taste of lobster once -- way too rich for me, and I don't mean money-wise.) > Anyway, keep your grits and cook them *up*, if you must, over there. I knew you'd say I could keep my grits, but what's wrong with "up"? Haven't you ever heard "cook up a mess of fish"? "Cook up some greens"? > Up is used redundantly in some interesting ways. Hmph. " .....For another example, > compare "I'll call you up " to, simply, "I'll call you". Idiom. > ......Tangentially, > there's the hilarious "I'll knock you up", in Hibernian-English. It's probably only hilarious in other Englishes. (For those who don't know, "knock someone up" in AmE means to impregnate that someone. And a woman who is "knocked up" is expecting a "bundle of joy." "Knock up" is strictly slang in the US, btw, and is somewhat dated, as well.) SignatureMaria http://www.familyhomefront.net/ There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. [...] > > ......Tangentially, > > there's the hilarious "I'll knock you up", in Hibernian-English. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > woman who is "knocked up" is expecting a "bundle of joy." "Knock up" is > strictly slang in the US, btw, and is somewhat dated, as well.) The US meaning has, er, impregnated other Englishes, and, er, cohabits reasonable contentedly with the other sense. I think we've done it before in AUE, but it's good enough to bear repetition: in Britain, some industries used to employ a man to wake shift workers who lived nearby; this functionary was known as the "knocker-up". SignatureMike. >[...] >> > ......Tangentially, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >some industries used to employ a man to wake shift workers who lived >nearby; this functionary was known as the "knocker-up". It seems that some of the knocker-ups were freelances paid by the workers to be knocked-up: http://www.richard-york.co.uk/past/knocker.html A piece of oral history: http://www.cottontown.org/page.cfm?pageid=1291&language=eng ...and then there was the knocker-ups. Well we had a bloke in our street, he lived at the bottom end of the street, now he was the knocker-up. You know what a knocker-up is? Well he had a big long pole and he had wires fastened to it at the top and he used to go round to these houses and he used to rattle on the window[1] with these wires, you know, until he got an answer and then he used to go and do that. Well he'd only get about tuppence or threepence a week for doing that, you know. Who paid him? Well the people who lived in the house, you see he used to go round on a Friday night and collect his money you see... There is a link to a sound file on that page. The recording is not of good quality. [1] The front bedroom window, upstairs. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > ...and then there was the knocker-ups. Well we had a bloke in > our street, he lived at the bottom end of the street, now he was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Who paid him? Who knocked-up the knocker-up? SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it: > > ...and then there was the knocker-ups. Well we had a bloke in > > our street, he lived at the bottom end of the street, now he was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Who knocked-up the knocker-up? His wife. Dur. SignatureDavid ===== > Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > His wife. Dur. Dur? That's a funny name for an English woman. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >> Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Dur? That's a funny name for an English woman. She's a major player....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > She's a major player....r Unlike her sister, Moll. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > Roland Hutchinson filted: > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Unlike her sister, Moll. Not sure about that: the family's got some false relations. SignatureMike. >> > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Not sure about that: the family's got some false relations. Yes. Some of live in the Neapolitan region, where she has six extra flats. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> > Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Yes. Some of live in the Neapolitan region, where she has six extra flats. ^them SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> > Roland Hutchinson filted: > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Yes. Some of live in the Neapolitan region, where she has six extra flats. OK, I'm Scarlat with embarrassment at not being able to follow that. I'll accept a subdominant role. SignatureMike. >> >> > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > OK, I'm Scarlat with embarrassment at not being able to follow that. > I'll accept a subdominant role. I'm not sure myself that I can such a progression of clavier puns. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> >> > Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I'm not sure myself that I can such a progression of clavier puns. Nor can I type; make that: I'm not sure myself that I can follow such a progression of clavier puns. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>> >> > Roland Hutchinson filted: >>>> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >I'm not sure myself that I can follow such a progression of clavier puns. It's no treble at all; you just scale them by degrees....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Roland Hutchinson filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > It's no treble at all; you just scale them by degrees....r I triad and triad, and in the end I resolved to rely on a sixth sense. SignatureMike. >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >> > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >I triad and triad, and in the end I resolved to rely on a sixth sense. Is that a flat denial, claiming diminished responsibility? SignatureBrad Germolene > >> Roland Hutchinson filted: > >> > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Is that a flat denial, claiming diminished responsibility? The victim was killed with a piano, lootenant. It's a typical Neapolitan MO: second-degree flattening. SignatureMike. >> >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >> >> > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > The victim was killed with a piano, lootenant. It's a typical > Neapolitan MO: second-degree flattening. They don't call it a gravecembalo for nothin'. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > It's no treble at all; you just scale them by degrees....r Still, it demands a thorough base of musical training. Go figure! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >> Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > >Still, it demands a thorough base of musical training. Go figure! I think I'd rather just open a fifth....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> R H Draney wrote: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>>>>>>>>> the Omrud wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Tony Cooper had it: >>>>>>>>>>>>> Who knocked-up the knocker-up? >>>>>>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > I think I'd rather just open a fifth....r Careful -- you might not stay sharp. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>The US meaning has, er, impregnated other Englishes, and, er, cohabits >>reasonable contentedly with the other sense. I think we've done it >>before in AUE, but it's good enough to bear repetition: in Britain, >>some industries used to employ a man to wake shift workers who lived >>nearby; this functionary was known as the "knocker-up". More, from: http://www.manchester2002-uk.com/lancashire-dialects.html Lancashire dialect bobber and bobbing = a man who woke up workers before clocks were common possessions; a so-called 'knocker up'; sometimes the man who also woke up those who fell asleep during church sermons. Bobbers often carried long poles, with which to tap roundly on bedroom windows or lightly on the head of a sleeper in chapel. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >[...] >> > ......Tangentially, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >some industries used to employ a man to wake shift workers who lived >nearby; this functionary was known as the "knocker-up". Wasn't it also the term used (in the UK) on election day for knocking on the doors of people who'd said they'd vote for your party but didn't appear to have done so yet? I did it once, many years ago, collecting the elderly and infirm and driving them to their polling booth. Wasn't that "knocking-up"? SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > >[...] > >> > ......Tangentially, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > collecting the elderly and infirm and driving them to their polling > booth. Wasn't that "knocking-up"? Yes, it was, and perhaps even is in some places. (One election, my b-i-l as a thirteen-year-old was helping the Labour Party, and was deputed to accompany the visiting Harold Wilson and guide the driver. His excitement turned to disappointment as he sat next to the great man in the car: the g.m. spent the whole journey fast asleep.) SignatureMike. >>> Charles Riggs wrote [to ron]: >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >(Btw, I had a taste of lobster once -- way too rich for me, and I don't >mean money-wise.) Why not bring the lobsters alive? If you do, here is what I suggest. Once on dry ice lobsters become too lethargic to move around. You and the airline staff won't know they are alive unless you look closely, nor would it be desirable to kill them at this stage. We want them as fresh as possible, after all. Some time after you guys arrive at my place, cook will toss them into boiling water, attempt to ignore the momentary, shrill screams if he's as squeamish as I am, and then serve them after a few minutes of cooking. As for the logistics of finding Maine lobsters, I'll leave that to your imagination. >> Anyway, keep your grits and cook them *up*, if you must, over there. > >I knew you'd say I could keep my grits, but what's wrong with "up"? >Haven't you ever heard "cook up a mess of fish"? "Cook up some greens"? Of course, but I hope you're not implying Easterners will ever come to use such constructions. >> Up is used redundantly in some interesting ways. > >Hmph. Well, it interested Len Martinoli who first pointed it out to me. >" .....For another example, >> compare "I'll call you up " to, simply, "I'll call you". > >Idiom. An unneeded one; that was my point. >> ......Tangentially, >> there's the hilarious "I'll knock you up", in Hibernian-English. > >It's probably only hilarious in other Englishes. Is it not hilarious to an AmE speaker, unfamiliar with BrE? >(For those who don't >know, "knock someone up" in AmE means to impregnate that someone. And a >woman who is "knocked up" is expecting a "bundle of joy." "Knock up" is >strictly slang in the US, btw, and is somewhat dated, as well.) As am I. SignatureCharles Riggs >>(For those who don't >>know, "knock someone up" in AmE means to impregnate that someone. And a >>woman who is "knocked up" is expecting a "bundle of joy." "Knock up" is >>strictly slang in the US, btw, and is somewhat dated, as well.) > > As am I. By the bye, how long have the odd middle-class expressions "we're pregnant", "we got pregnant" or "we're trying to get pregnant"[1] -- that is to say, speaking of pregnancy as a shared state -- been current in AmE? Coop, surely you didn't say such things back in the day. (Was the term "pregnant" even used openly back then? I recall from my childhood relatives using the euphemism "expecting", which I think still occurs but might be less common.) [1]Well, back in the early postwar era did anyone actually *try* to get pregnant? SignatureSalvatore Volatile Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> had it: > By the bye, how long have the odd middle-class expressions > "we're pregnant", "we got pregnant" or "we're trying to get pregnant"[1] [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > [1]Well, back in the early postwar era did anyone actually *try* to get > pregnant? I said "We're pregnant", in May 1985. I remember, as it was the day of a friend's wedding. I have never said "We're trying to get pregnant" as it is not the sort of thing I would ever discuss with others, unless we had needed the assistance of a medic. SignatureDavid ===== > Salvatore Volatile <me@privacy.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > sort of thing I would ever discuss with others, unless we had needed > the assistance of a medic. It's sometimes very strange being in an in-between generation: I think I've quite often said "pregnant", though I sense in theory that "one doesn't". "Expecting", tout court, is much worse, though; the polite expression was -- no, dammit, _is_ -- "expecting a baby". I rather think it was a question more of linguistic than of social propriety, though: isn't it the case that a womb can be pregnant, while, technically speaking, a woman can't? SignatureMike. >isn't it the case that a womb can be pregnant, while, >technically speaking, a woman can't? If that is indeed a technical distinction, then neither OEtyD nor MedTerms have heard of it. This does not of course prove that the distinction is not made in some contexts: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=pregnant pregnant "with child," 1545, from L. prægnantem (nom. prægnans, originally prægnas) "with child," lit. "before birth," probably from præ- "before" + root of gnasci "be born." Used much earlier in Eng. in fig. senses (1413); the late record probably reflects its status as a taboo word, which it somewhat retained until c.1950; modern euphemisms include anticipating, enceinte, expecting, in a family way, in a delicate (or interesting) condition. Slang preggers is recorded from 1942. O.E. terms included mid-bearne, lit. "with child;" bearn-eaca, lit. "child-adding" or "child-increasing;" and geacnod "increased." The MedTerms Dictionary states simply: http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=10695 Pregnant: The state of carrying a developing fetus within the body. The word "pregnant" comes from the Latin pre- meaning before + (g)natus meaning birth = before (giving) birth. The word "prenatal" has exactly the same origin. Common Misspellings: pregnit The compiler of the On-Line Medical Dictionary (Dr Graham Dark, University of Newcastle upon Tyne) is happy to use the definition from the Project Gutenberg online copy of Webster's Dictionary (Webster, Noah, 1758-1843): http://cancerweb.ncl.ac.uk/cgi-bin/omd?pregnant pregnant 1. Being with young, as a female; having conceived; great with young; breeding; teeming; gravid; preparing to bring forth. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Richard Fontana: >> By the bye, how long have the odd middle-class expressions >> "we're pregnant", "we got pregnant" or "we're trying to get >> pregnant"[1] -- that is to say, speaking of pregnancy as a >> shared state -- been current in AmE? ... "David": > I said "We're pregnant", in May 1985. "David, We're Pregnant" was the title of Lynn Johnston's first book of cartoons, and I assume it was chosen precisely because it sounded odd. I remember seeing the book in a store when it first came out -- Wikipedia says it was 1973. She started "For Better or For Worse" a few years later. SignatureMark Brader "...out of the dark coffee-stained mugs of Toronto insane programmers throughout the world..." msb@vex.net -- Liam Quin >>>(For those who don't >>>know, "knock someone up" in AmE means to impregnate that someone. And a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >in AmE? Coop, surely you didn't say such things back in the day. (Was >the term "pregnant" even used openly back then? No, Areff, we used "great with child" in my day. >I recall from my >childhood relatives using the euphemism "expecting", which I think still >occurs but might be less common.) > >[1]Well, back in the early postwar era did anyone actually *try* to get >pregnant? The above post is yet another indicator that you live in some parallel universe that rarely intersects with the universe that the rest of America occupies. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Charles Riggs wrote, in part: > Maria wrote, ditto: >> Charles Riggs wrote, ditto: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > As for the logistics of finding Maine lobsters, I'll leave that to > your imagination. My son was in Maine just recently. He'll probably be there again before long, so I don't have to use my imagination all that much, I guess. >>> Anyway, keep your grits and cook them *up*, if you must, over there. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Of course, but I hope you're not implying Easterners will ever come to > use such constructions. Why not? (Surely they are not too stiff a breed to use colloquialisms.) >>> compare "I'll call you up " to, simply, "I'll call you". >> >> Idiom. > > An unneeded one; that was my point. I've never thought about some idioms being unneeded. I think all of them just /are/ -- they exist because they exist. >>> ......Tangentially, >>> there's the hilarious "I'll knock you up", in Hibernian-English. >> >> It's probably only hilarious in other Englishes. > > Is it not hilarious to an AmE speaker, unfamiliar with BrE? By "other Englishes," I meant those other than BrE/HibernianE. So, yes, the Rightpondian "I'll knock you up" sounds funny (in both senses) to Americans who are unfamiliar with the RPondian usage. But I'd think that the usage in question is much more familiar in the US now than it was previously. By the bye, is the phrase used in Australia to mean the same as in the UK? >> (For those who don't >> know, "knock someone up" in AmE means to impregnate that someone. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > As am I. As are most of us, and some more than others. SignatureMaria There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. >> I like hominy grits. Hominy, too. (Hominy other things should I >> mention?) > > I've always heard them called, simply, "grits". Yes, that's more common nowadays. "Hominy grits" may be an outdated usage, or perhaps a regional one. I'll have to listen closely next time we go to Tennessee (which I hope will be before Christmas). See also my reply to r. SignatureMaria There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. > I appreciate the distinction you're making and in general I would agree > that porridge is a separate category of breakfast food. But I find my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as Charles did. But I probably wouldn't do that because there are so > many other delightful things to eat at breakfast in the US. Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. Does "porridge" in the UK cover warm, wet things other than oats? Is there a general term for (oat) porridge, farina (cream of wheat), etc.? SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. > > Does "porridge" in the UK cover warm, wet things other than oats? Is there > a general term for (oat) porridge, farina (cream of wheat), etc.? I think porridge only applies to something made from oats. Things like ground rice, semolina, sago etc, would be milk puddings (when I was at school, anyway) and wouldn't usually be served for breakfast. My brother was a devotee of Weetabix, made with hot milk. That wasn't porridge, but it was a hot cereal. I don't know where that fits in the scheme of things. Fran >> Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > porridge, but it was a hot cereal. I don't know where that fits in the > scheme of things. No, neither do I. I've been meaning to try it, though, following the suggestion on the box. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > No, neither do I. I've been meaning to try it, though, following the > suggestion on the box. I frequently have Weetabix for breakfast: cold milk in the Summer; hot milk in the Winter. SignatureRay UK >>>>Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I frequently have Weetabix for breakfast: cold milk in the Summer; hot milk > in the Winter. Ah, but how many? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>>Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Ah, but how many? 2 or 3 depending on something, but I don't know what. (Are you thinking of Shredded Wheat?) SignatureRay UK >>> I frequently have Weetabix for breakfast: cold milk in the Summer; hot >>> milk in the Winter. >> >> Ah, but how many? > > 2 or 3 depending on something, but I don't know what. Pretty much has to be 2 or 3. One isn't enough. Four is definitely too many. The real questions are: milk on top, or alongside? Whole biscuits, or crumbled into the bowl? > (Are you thinking of Shredded Wheat?) I never cared for that. Love the 'bix. Never had 'em as a kid; probably weren't available. Sugar-coated Jets[1], Frosted Flakes, and Rice Crinkles -- that was the stuff of my childhood, which, amazingly, I survived despite my diet. [1] of blessed memory. Jets : Kix :: Frosted Flakes : cornflakes SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>>>Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Ah, but how many? I have one, crumbled up with Special K with red berries, served always with lashings of cold milk to make it mushy. I don't like hot milk at all. FWIW, Weetabix is about the only foodstuff that my dog turns his nose up at. SignatureRobin Herts, England >>>Though one seeks in vain for a kipper. >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > No, neither do I. I've been meaning to try it, though, following the > suggestion on the box. Just to confuse things, you can how get Oatibix: http://www.weetabix.co.uk/range/108/oatibix.html SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > Just to confuse things, you can how get Oatibix: Ooo -- I hope they make it stateside. Gotta love that soluble fibre. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > Just to confuse things, you can how get Oatibix: > > Ooo -- I hope they make it stateside. Gotta love that soluble fibre. I found them rather disappointing: soggy, and not much flavour. Wheat-wise, some supermarkets' own brands are crisper than echt Weetabix, as are or were Australian Weet-Bix: Tesco's dirt-cheap "Value" kind seem to be the best. One of the exotic things about England, garnered from the advertisements in the back of the Illustrated London News, was that policemen in helmets apparently started the day with hot Shredded Wheat: you sprinkled a little salt, washed it in with boiling water, and then added milk or cream and sugar to taste. When I finally got here, and was able to taste the delicacy, I was not disappointed. Maybe I'll try it again some day: sounds like a natch for the µwave. SignatureMike. >> My brother was a devotee of Weetabix, made with hot milk. That wasn't >> porridge, but it was a hot cereal. I don't know where that fits in the >> scheme of things. > >No, neither do I. I've been meaning to try it, though, following the >suggestion on the box. England's best wicket-keeper for some years was RC "Jack" Russell. He was known, apart from his skill with the gloves, for his many superstitions and eccentricities. One of these (i.e, both S and E) was his liking for Weetabix for his lunch and tea. I don't have the full recipe, but he required that the hot milk be added to the bowl precisely twelve minutes before eating. Any deviation from that time would result in the dish being inedible. SignatureGraeme Thomas > I order porridge in > UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian differences to know that if I > want the equivalent to porridge in the US I have to ask for "hot cereal" > as Charles did. But I probably wouldn't do that because there are so > many other delightful things to eat at breakfast in the US. Things that aren't commonly found in the UK? Like what? (My son and I had blue cheese on rye crackers for breakfast today, but I suspect that's not usually found on hotel menus...) SignatureSML just curious >>I order porridge in >>UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian differences to know that if I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > had blue cheese on rye crackers for breakfast today, but I suspect > that's not usually found on hotel menus...) Pancakes, waffles, eggs all different ways... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>> I order porridge in >>> UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian differences to know that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Pancakes, waffles, eggs all different ways... Have you tried "biscuits and gravy"? That's a favorite in many restaurants here (and not just in the South). And what about "French toast"? My son likes to order that, maybe because I never made it when he was living here at home. ("Absence makes the heart grow fonder," or something.) And I still haven't made it, probably because it was never on the table when I was growing up. ("Out of sight, out of mind"?) Different people, different reactions. SignatureMaria >>>> I order porridge in >>>> UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian differences to know that [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Have you tried "biscuits and gravy"? That's a favorite in many > restaurants here (and not just in the South). That sounds sort of meaty - not my thing at breakfast. > And what about "French toast"? Yes, indeed. Pain perdu, a treat from my childhood, but not at breakfast. My son likes to order that, maybe because > I never made it when he was living here at home. ("Absence makes the > heart grow fonder," or something.) And I still haven't made it, probably > because it was never on the table when I was growing up. ("Out of sight, > out of mind"?) > > Different people, different reactions. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > > And what about "French toast"? Known in my childhood as "egg dip". > Yes, indeed. Pain perdu, a treat from my childhood, but not at breakfast. Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. SignatureDavid ===== > LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. And syrup. Topped with fresh strawberries. Yum. But made at home with brioche and sprinkled with cinnamon and sugar is also yummy. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. In restaurants, maybe, but home-made French toast isn't necessarily. My family has never swamped it in sugar. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> had it: > >LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > In restaurants, maybe, but home-made French toast isn't > necessarily. My family has never swamped it in sugar. I don't think I've ever had French toast in a US home. I have learned that to breakfast well in a US Diner, I need only order the sum total of items from the menu which contain no sugar. SignatureDavid ===== the Omrud filted: >I have learned that to breakfast well in a US Diner, I need only >order the sum total of items from the menu which contain no sugar. Ah, the huevos rancheros principle at work!...r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > I don't think I've ever had French toast in a US home. > > I have learned that to breakfast well in a US Diner, I need only > order the sum total of items from the menu which contain no sugar. Eggs and coffee? SignatureMaria Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > > I don't think I've ever had French toast in a US home. > > > > I have learned that to breakfast well in a US Diner, I need only > > order the sum total of items from the menu which contain no sugar. > > Eggs and coffee? I'm not fond of coffee, so it would be "hot tea". But certainly eggs, possibly with cheese and ham, fried potatoes in some form - hash browns are good - and toast. SignatureDavid ===== > Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: >> >> Eggs and coffee? > > I'm not fond of coffee, so it would be "hot tea". I guess in *some* places you'd have to say "hot tea". In the Northeast (LEIA), "tea" means hot tea (and not lukewarm tea) by default. I was in North Carolina (which is in the South) recently, and I ordered an iced tea at a restaurant where I was having dinner, and the waiter asked "sweet or non-sweet?". I said non-sweet, but I wonder how sickly-sweet the sweet iced tea would have been. SignatureBuckwheat Soba Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > > Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I guess in *some* places you'd have to say "hot tea". In the Northeast > (LEIA), "tea" means hot tea (and not lukewarm tea) by default. Perhaps, but I'm not confident enough to know when I'm in one of those places, and "hot tea" is always understood. In the UK, of course, you would get looked at sideways if you ordered hot tea, as though you were accusing the waitress of serving lukewarm tea. SignatureDavid ===== >> Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >"sweet or non-sweet?". I said non-sweet, but I wonder how sickly-sweet >the sweet iced tea would have been. I ind that odd. I have never had iced ta in a restaurant that wasn't served unsweetened for me to add my choice of sweeteners. I wonder if your restaurant was serving ready-prepared iced tea, maybe even bottled stuff. And "sweet or non-sweet" is terribly uninformative. It may be sweetened with artificial sweeteners (ugh!). ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>> Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I ind that odd. I have never had iced ta in a restaurant that > wasn't served unsweetened for me to add my choice of sweeteners. Same here, except for a Wendy's I used to go to when I was in high school. > I wonder if your restaurant was serving ready-prepared iced tea, > maybe even bottled stuff. And "sweet or non-sweet" is terribly > uninformative. It may be sweetened with artificial sweeteners > (ugh!). No, I was served legitimate, non-pre-made iced tea. I think in the South there might be a default preference in favor of pre-sweetened iced tea. Coop, any thoughts on this? SignatureBuckwheat Soba >>>> I'm not fond of coffee, so it would be "hot tea". >>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > South there might be a default preference in favor of pre-sweetened > iced tea. Coop, any thoughts on this? Not Coop, but "Con": YACS about iced tea in the South, or at least in the parts I've been in. It is, by default, served "sweet," as in "real sugar is in it." If one wants unsweetened, one must ask for "unsweet" or "no sugar." I've even said, "No sugar, please, just some Sweet-n-Low (Google that for spelling)." And they'll say, "It's right there on the table, darlin'" (or "honey," or "ma-am") with a smile. And if one wants hot tea, one must specify "hot tea." "Tea" alone means iced tea (sweetened, vide supra). Does any restaurant anywhere in the USA serve brewed tea? Or do they all serve you a tea bag with a cup, a saucer (maybe), and a little metal pot of hot water? And does any restaurant in the USA serve you tea refills -- with a fresh tea bag? Brian's a hot tea drinker (read that either way) and we've seldom if ever seen a free second bag. SignatureMaria Resident of southeast Michigan; native of, and frequent visitor to, east Tennessee. There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. > If one wants unsweetened, one must ask for "unsweet" or "no sugar." > I've even said, "No sugar, please, just some Sweet-n-Low (Google > that for spelling)." "Sweet'n Low". And I thought you boycotted products that didn't spell out "and". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It is a popular delusion that the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |government wastes vast amounts of Palo Alto, CA 94304 |money through inefficiency and sloth. |Enormous effort and elaborate kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |planning are required to waste this (650)857-7572 |much money | P.J. O'Rourke http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> If one wants unsweetened, one must ask for "unsweet" or "no sugar." >> I've even said, "No sugar, please, just some Sweet-n-Low (Google >> that for spelling)." > >"Sweet'n Low". And I thought you boycotted products that didn't spell >out "and". As other brands of saccharin-based sweeteners imitate the packaging of brand-leader Sweet'n Low, the preferred circumlocution is "pink stuff"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >> If one wants unsweetened, one must ask for "unsweet" or "no sugar." >> I've even said, "No sugar, please, just some Sweet-n-Low (Google >> that for spelling)." > > "Sweet'n Low". And I thought you boycotted products that didn't spell > out "and". Certainly I do. But if I don't notice, or if that's all they've got, well, one can ignore one's convictions, can't one? (Someone said something the other day about hobgoblins and foolish minds. Something like that. I forget the details.) SignatureMaria >>> If one wants unsweetened, one must ask for "unsweet" or "no sugar." >>> I've even said, "No sugar, please, just some Sweet-n-Low (Google [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >something the other day about hobgoblins and foolish minds. Something >like that. I forget the details.) Ask Mr Emerson. If that doesn't work, Thoreau; I get them confused. SignatureCharles Riggs >>>> If one wants unsweetened, one must ask for "unsweet" or "no sugar." >>>> I've even said, "No sugar, please, just some Sweet-n-Low (Google [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ask Mr Emerson. If that doesn't work, Thoreau; I get them confused. I forget, you get confused. What is it we have in common? Oh, yes. Age. (But, hey -- things could be worse. We could be /young/ and forgetful and confused, and thus have no handy excuses.) SignatureMaria >YACS about iced tea in the South, or at least in the parts I've been in. >It is, by default, served "sweet," as in "real sugar is in it." Again, an Areff post which didn't show up for me, so a reply to Maria's reply without quoting anything said by Maria. It's not really true that sweet tea is the default in the South. It is the default in many restaurants, but it's not like you get sweet tea in *all* restaurants in the South. As a general rule, if the restaurant is locally-owned the default is sweet tea. If the restaurant is part of a chain, both sweet and non-pre-sweetened tea are available. The waitress will ask. This means that if you travel in the South and stop at Cracker Barrels and Ruby Tuesdays and the like, you'll not see either tea as a default. However, if you stop where the locals meet and eat, you'll think sweet tea is the default. Since locally-owned, non-chain, restaurants are getting scarce on the ground, this does represent a change in the South. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >> YACS about iced tea in the South, or at least in the parts I've been >> in. It is, by default, served "sweet," as in "real sugar is in it." > > Again, an Areff post which didn't show up for me, so a reply to > Maria's reply without quoting anything said by Maria. But what you quoted *was* actually said by me. The person you didn't quote was Bucky. (I was going to use his initials, but thought better of it.) > It's not really true that sweet tea is the default in the South. It > is the default in many restaurants, but it's not like you get sweet [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sweet tea. If the restaurant is part of a chain, both sweet and > non-pre-sweetened tea are available. The waitress will ask. Here, I have to disagree, if only concerning the actual restaurants we patronize in the South. I can't recall being asked in any restaurant (including Shoney's, which is part of a chain, I think) "sweet or unsweet?" or words to that effect. (I do order iced tea often, but only in warm weather.) By the way, if I've said otherwise on this subject before, please chalk it up to an inconsistency in, or insufficiency of, memory cells. Okay? > This means that if you travel in the South and stop at Cracker Barrels > and Ruby Tuesdays and the like, you'll not see either tea as a > default. However, if you stop where the locals meet and eat, you'll > think sweet tea is the default. We eat at Cracker Barrel frequently. In the South, in the Cracker Barrels we've stopped at, their tea is sweet, no questions asked. I know enough now to request unsweetened. Of course, many locals are found in the Cracker Barrels we frequent, so maybe that's the difference. And I can't say you're just wrong about this, because there are a lot of restaurants and we don't go into anywhere near all of them and order iced tea. > Since locally-owned, non-chain, restaurants are getting scarce on the > ground, this does represent a change in the South. Especially along the Interstate Highways, I'd say. In fact, independent restaurants there are all but gone. (But not all towns we visit are right at the Interstate exit.) SignatureMaria >> As a general rule, if the restaurant is locally-owned the default is >> sweet tea. If the restaurant is part of a chain, both sweet and [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >enough now to request unsweetened. Of course, many locals are found in >the Cracker Barrels we frequent, so maybe that's the difference. My wife and I had lunch in a Cracker Barrel in Leesburg (not-so-big town, not off an interstate, and likely to be patronized by locals) on Sunday. Default wasn't involved because, when asked for our drink orders, we both asked for sweet tea. I think, that had we not specified sweet tea in the order, the waitress would have asked. The waitress who went around re-filling glasses carried two pitchers: sweet and unsweetened. That's indication to me that there's no default. There are so many calorie-concious people, diabetics, and other users of artificial sweeteners around that I just can't believe that a chain restaurant is going to automatically provide sweet tea. They'd have to exchange too many for unsweetened tea. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >> We eat at Cracker Barrel frequently. In the South, in the Cracker >> Barrels we've stopped at, their tea is sweet, no questions asked. I [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > sweet and unsweetened. That's indication to me that there's no > default. I've never noticed two iced tea pitchers being carried around (not to say they aren't, but to hint that I don't always pay a great deal of attention); two coffee pots, sure. > There are so many calorie-concious people, diabetics, and other users > of artificial sweeteners around that I just can't believe that a chain > restaurant is going to automatically provide sweet tea. They'd have > to exchange too many for unsweetened tea. Good point. It may be that the "default to sweet" is random, depending on the restaurant, the server, the manager, etc. And I agree that a default in the matter of iced tea is not a good idea. I always make sure I know what I'm getting, though, because I've encountered too many places where "iced tea" does, indeed, mean "sweet tea." And I'm diabetic, as I've mentioned before. Speaking of foodie things we consume: I went to a catered dinner a few weeks ago where some kind of chicken was included in the buffet. It was in a sauce. Being suspicious (you'll see why in a minute), I asked one of the catering staffers if there were mushrooms in the dish. She looked and said she didn't know. So she asked the cook, and yes, there were mushrooms. Now, what's the big deal? As you may know, I don't like mushrooms (slimy little things), but couldn't I just pick them out? Maybe not: I found out about a year ago that I'm allergic to mushrooms, but I don't know (yet) how effective removing the mushrooms /after cooking them in the sauce/ would be. Nor do I know what would happen if I swallowed one or two. I'm not advocating mushroom-less buffets, but that people be sure they know what they're being served. SignatureMaria Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > Does any restaurant anywhere in the USA serve brewed tea? Or do they all > serve you a tea bag with a cup, a saucer (maybe), and a little metal pot > of hot water? And does any restaurant in the USA serve you tea > refills -- with a fresh tea bag? Brian's a hot tea drinker (read that > either way) and we've seldom if ever seen a free second bag. I found one which served proper tea. It was a small restaurant near the San Francisco Opera (where a school friend of mine works). I asked for tea and they asked me what type. I suggested Earl Grey, and they brought me a large teapot filled with the very finest Earl Grey. It had been properly made with boiling water poured onto leaf tea in the kitchen; a tea strainer was provided. Sadly, I can't remember the name of the restaurant but I think I could find it again. SignatureDavid ===== > Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Grey. It had been properly made with boiling water poured onto leaf > tea in the kitchen; a tea strainer was provided. Chinese restaurants all over the US (sit-down ones, not the fast food buffettes) typically have tea on the hob*, served in a nice stoneware or porcelain pot. Usually a blend of black teas, with maybe a hint of lapsang souchong or else jasmine. * well, not actually the hob -- sometimes a percolator without the sputtering gizzard, sometimes a samovar's poor cousin. /dps [...] > Chinese restaurants all over the US (sit-down ones, not the fast food > buffettes) typically have tea on the hob*, served in a nice stoneware > or porcelain pot. Usually a blend of black teas, with maybe a hint of > lapsang souchong or else jasmine. I forgot about the Oolong. That's probably the base tea. I don't know if Assam would ever show up in such usage. /dps > No, I was served legitimate, non-pre-made iced tea. I think in the South > there might be a default preference in favor of pre-sweetened iced tea. If, by "default preference" you mean "only a godless atheist commie damnyankee would even think about drinking anything but sweet tea", yeah. > Coop, any thoughts on this? In all fairness to Coop, though I suspect he'll agree with me, large parts of Florida are not really the South. -=Eric >> No, I was served legitimate, non-pre-made iced tea. I think in the South >> there might be a default preference in favor of pre-sweetened iced tea. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > In all fairness to Coop, though I suspect he'll agree with me, large > parts of Florida are not really the South. You are correct, sir, and I think Coop has said as such many times. What's perplexing is that Coop has also purported to be an expert on the South, even though he lives in the south, not the South. It could be that he's done a lot of traveling in the South, or that he recognizes the close contacts between Southern US culture and his native Hoosier culture. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >You are correct, sir, and I think Coop has said as such many times. >What's perplexing is that Coop has also purported to be an expert on the >South, even though he lives in the south, not the South. It could be that >he's done a lot of traveling in the South, or that he recognizes the close >contacts between Southern US culture and his native Hoosier culture. I wouldn't describe myself as an expert, but I am a man with one eye in the Land of the Blind in some threads. I have traveled quite a bit in the South, and I am observant. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >In all fairness to Coop, though I suspect he'll agree with me, large >parts of Florida are not really the South. I'm already on record in this area: most of Florida is not in the South. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >> Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > I guess in *some* places you'd have to say "hot tea". In the Northeast > (LEIA), "tea" means hot tea (and not lukewarm tea) by default. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "sweet or non-sweet?". I said non-sweet, but I wonder how sickly-sweet > the sweet iced tea would have been. He probably only asked as a courtesy because he heard your Yankee accent. Any southerner knows that if you want non-sweet tea you have to ask for it specifically. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > eggs, possibly with cheese and ham, fried potatoes in some form - > hash browns are good - and toast. I hate to break this to you, but the ham contains sugar, and so might the hash browns. And I wouldn't be too sure about "American" cheese. The toast almost certainly does. Eggs are safe, though. Well, except for the salmonella. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson <my.spamtrap@verizon.net> had it: > > Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > hash browns. And I wouldn't be too sure about "American" cheese. The > toast almost certainly does. I always ask for wholewheat toast, which seems to be non sugary. I do sometimes accept bacon even though I know it's likely to be slightly sweet; you may be right about the ham, but I've never noticed any sugar in the hash browns. SignatureDavid ===== >> >> > I have learned that to breakfast well in a US Diner, I need only >> >> > order the sum total of items from the menu which contain no sugar. [...] > I always ask for wholewheat toast, which seems to be non sugary. In US DinerE, however, one properly asks for "wheat toast", not "whole wheat toast". This seems to be because the standard question the waitress (ASUI) asks is "white or wheat?". (Presumably "wheat" is an abbreviation for "whole wheat".) SignatureBuckwheat Soba > In US DinerE, however, one properly asks for "wheat toast", not "whole > wheat toast". This seems to be because the standard question the > waitress (ASUI) asks is "white or wheat?". (Presumably "wheat" is an > abbreviation for "whole wheat".) And that seems "universal" (i.e., "across the country"). ASUI? "As Soba Understands It" SignatureMaria >> In US DinerE, however, one properly asks for "wheat toast", not "whole >> wheat toast". This seems to be because the standard question the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > ASUI? "As Soba Understands It" No, "as she usually is". In most diners and like establishments (= ApproxBrE "caffs") the server is female, IME (of course maybe it's otherwise in BrE caffs). BTTS, I used to wonder whether there was some difference between "whole wheat bread" and "wheat bread" given the DinerE usage. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >> In US DinerE, however, one properly asks for "wheat toast", not "whole >> wheat toast". This seems to be because the standard question the >> waitress (ASUI) asks is "white or wheat?". (Presumably "wheat" is an >> abbreviation for "whole wheat".) > >And that seems "universal" (i.e., "across the country"). Near as I can tell. There are basically two kinds of wheat bread in the USA, whole wheat and cracked wheat. You don't usually see cracked wheat in diners and cafes. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>> In US DinerE, however, one properly asks for "wheat toast", not "whole >>> wheat toast". This seems to be because the standard question the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >wheat and cracked wheat. You don't usually see cracked wheat in >diners and cafes. Wheat bread includes white, sourdough, and even some rye breads, regardless of what waitresses think. >The Hatunen entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Wheat bread includes white, sourdough, and even some rye breads, >regardless of what waitresses think. It's just shorthand. We all know what they mean. Although rye bread seems to be pushing it no matter how much wheat they use in it. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >bread seems to be pushing it no matter how much wheat they use in >it. I know, but it bugs me, especially after ordering "brown toast", which is perfectly idiomatic in my country, and being told that "It's toast. it's all brown". Well, "it's bread. It's all wheat". I am particularly fond of "Winnipeg-style" rye bread. It's a light rye with a fair bit of wheat flour in it. > The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>> The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>>>>> In US DinerE, however, one properly asks for "wheat toast", not >>>>>> "whole wheat toast". This seems to be because the standard [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > I am particularly fond of "Winnipeg-style" rye bread. It's a light rye > with a fair bit of wheat flour in it. Latvian rye bread and Latvian sourdough rye bread have no wheat in it, only rye flour. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ The Skitt entity posted thusly: >> The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>>> The Hatunen entity posted thusly: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >Latvian rye bread and Latvian sourdough rye bread have no wheat in it, only >rye flour. I think that's true of most rye breads. "Winnipeg style" could well be unique. >> Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >hash browns. And I wouldn't be too sure about "American" cheese. The >toast almost certainly does. Well, duh. Most bread is made with sugar as part of the dough. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> had it: > >> Maria <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net> had it: > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Well, duh. Most bread is made with sugar as part of the dough. Proper bread might have a spoonful, but it's there to feed the yeast so it doesn't exist in the final bread. SignatureDavid ===== [...] > I'm not fond of coffee, so it would be "hot tea". But certainly > eggs, possibly with cheese and ham, fried potatoes in some form - > hash browns are good - and toast. Some diner's cooks can do hash browns, but often you just get mushy strips of tater, often widdout flavor. /dps > LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. Sugar? Not in my house. Maple syrup, please! SignatureSML Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> had it: > > LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sugar? Not in my house. Maple syrup, please! Perhaps I should have said "sugars". It's sweetness I object to on French Toast. Indeed, my version "egg dip" has salt sprinkled on it. SignatureDavid ===== On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote > Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > on French Toast. Indeed, my version "egg dip" has salt > sprinkled on it. Sorry, David -- "French toast with salt" is just weird. (No arguments allowed: own up -- you're weird....) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: > On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > (No arguments allowed: own up -- you're weird....) Do you put sugar on fried egg on toast? On scrambled egg on toast? Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean it requires sugar? And don't get me started about cinnamon. [being right about this doesn't negate my being weird in general] SignatureDavid ===== >Do you put sugar on fried egg on toast? On scrambled egg on toast? >Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean it requires >sugar? And don't get me started about cinnamon. Because that's *just what the dish is*. You put flavored syrup on French toast for the same reason you put sugar in cake batter: it's what the recipe calls for. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>Do you put sugar on fried egg on toast? On scrambled egg on toast? >>Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean it requires [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > French toast for the same reason you put sugar in cake batter: it's > what the recipe calls for. Obviously not in our recipe. SignatureRay UK >> Do you put sugar on fried egg on toast? On scrambled egg on toast? >> Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean it requires [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > French toast for the same reason you put sugar in cake batter: it's > what the recipe calls for. Not in the UK it doesn't. No flavoured syrup at all. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote > HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > toast? Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean > it requires sugar? Because the method of preparation and cooking changes *everything*, dunnit. Roast pumpkin is nice, as is runny cream over pumpkin pie. You may consider me an inconsistent little pumpkin, but I wouldn't dream of pouring runny cream over my roasted pumpkin. > [being right about this doesn't negate my being weird in > general] [most of us are like that....] SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > Roast pumpkin is nice, as is runny cream over pumpkin pie. You may > consider me an inconsistent little pumpkin, but I wouldn't dream of > pouring runny cream over my roasted pumpkin. I don't consider you *any* kind of pumpkin. Nor would I roast you, put you in a pie, or pour runny cream [1] over you. (Um, well, maybe that last thing, if sufficiently driven to it.) [1] Whatever that is. SignatureMaria On 01 Nov 2006, Maria wrote >> Roast pumpkin is nice, as is runny cream over pumpkin pie. You >> may consider me an inconsistent little pumpkin, but I wouldn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > you, put you in a pie, or pour runny cream [1] over you. (Um, > well, maybe that last thing, if sufficiently driven to it.) You temptress, you. > [1] Whatever that is. It's the practice of using pourable rather than whipped cream on desserts like cakes and pies -- an alien custom to me when I first moved here, but one that wasn't difficult to get used to. (It's presumably also one of the contributing factors to the default cutlery for puddings being a dessert spoon rather than a fork.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: > On 01 Nov 2006, Maria wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (It's presumably also one of the contributing factors to the default > cutlery for puddings being a dessert spoon rather than a fork.) In the olden days, when milk came in bottles on the front step and contained significant quantities of fat, people (Dad, for example) would relish "the top of the milk" being poured on their puddings. I never much liked the fat of the milk and so I learned to place my thumb over the top of the bottle and up-end it before opening, mixing the milk and the cream together. I still do this if presented with a proper milk bottle with a Blue Peter collectable silver top, although we've only had fully skimmed milk in the house for 25 years. SignatureDavid ===== >the milk and the cream together. I still do this if presented with a >proper milk bottle with a Blue Peter collectable silver top, although >we've only had fully skimmed milk in the house for 25 years. ObAUE: now there's a sentence where we could argue about the placement of the "only". Katy > In the olden days, when milk came in bottles on the front step and > contained significant quantities of fat, people (Dad, for example) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > proper milk bottle with a Blue Peter collectable silver top, although > we've only had fully skimmed milk in the house for 25 years. My neighbours still have their milk delivered. I was horrified to get home one day and startle one of my cats who had made a hole in the silver top and was licking up the cream. When I stop work and am at home full-time I intend getting the milk delivered. Around here the milkman does two deliveries a day - one early morning round and one late afternoon round. That way he delivers at good times for people who get up later than we do and people who get home from work earlier than us. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > When I stop work and am at home full-time I intend getting the milk > delivered. Around here the milkman does two deliveries a day - one early > morning round and one late afternoon round. That way he delivers at good > times for people who get up later than we do and people who get home > from work earlier than us. You're very lucky. We have our milk delivered but the dairy only delivers on Monday, Thursday and Saturday. The milk float arrives at 3 am. If we leave a note changing the order the milkman doesn't read it (although we have a light outside which is on throughout the hours of darkness) which necessitates cross phone calls. The only reason we put up with all this inconvenience is that I like my milk packaged in glass rather than plastic, which makes it taste different. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > > When I stop work and am at home full-time I intend getting the milk > > delivered. Around here the milkman does two deliveries a day - one early [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You're very lucky. We have our milk delivered but the dairy only > delivers on Monday, Thursday and Saturday. Ooooh, aren't you fancy! Our milk is delivered once a week. SignatureSML >> When I stop work and am at home full-time I intend getting the milk >> delivered. Around here the milkman does two deliveries a day - one [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > up with all this inconvenience is that I like my milk packaged in > glass rather than plastic, which makes it taste different. It's a local village for local people. I've been here for 8 years and the milkman actually spoke to me this morning. That's a first. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > On 01 Nov 2006, Maria wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (It's presumably also one of the contributing factors to the default > cutlery for puddings being a dessert spoon rather than a fork.) I think the really important contributing factor is custard. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 01 Nov 2006, LFS wrote >> On 01 Nov 2006, Maria wrote re: runny cream >>> [1] Whatever that is. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I think the really important contributing factor is custard. I'm sure that's true -- but seeing someone trying to get runny cream off their plate with a fork is....amusing. OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie forks" as part of their cutlery set? (My good silverware has them -- but that came from Canada.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie > forks" as part of their cutlery set? > > (My good silverware has them -- but that came from Canada.) I was given two sets of cake forks as wedding presents (England, 1970). They have one tine that is wider than the rest. Is that what you mean by "pie forks"? Fran On 01 Nov 2006, Frances Kemmish wrote >> OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >> forks" as part of their cutlery set? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 1970). They have one tine that is wider than the rest. Is that > what you mean by "pie forks"? No; I also call those "cake forks". The ones I'm talkingg about have shorter tines than a dinner fork, but they're equal-sized. (I've seen cake forks here, of course -- my wife has a couple of left-handed ones -- but I don't think I've seen a NAmer "pie fork".) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 01 Nov 2006, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > (My good silverware has them -- but that came from Canada.) I have a feeling we've done this before. Are they the same as pastry forks which have two tines, one much broader than the other? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 01 Nov 2006, LFS wrote >> OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >> forks" as part of their cutlery set? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > pastry forks which have two tines, one much broader than the > other? No; I think of that as a "cake fork". (My wife has a left-handed one.) The tines on pie forks are shorter than a dinner fork, but they have four even-sized tines. (Because of the shortness, they look sort of broad.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie > forks" as part of their cutlery set? One is told that respectible persons don't even have fish forks. Ancient silver services never included them, so possessing them merely advertises that one comes from a family of Victorian parvenus. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >>forks" as part of their cutlery set? > > One is told that respectible persons don't even have fish forks. Ancient > silver services never included them, so possessing them merely advertises > that one comes from a family of Victorian parvenus. I think it's fish *knives* which are the defining feature. John Betjeman hit the nail on the head perfectly: How to Get On in Society Phone for the fish-knives, Norman As Cook is a little unnerved; You kiddies have crumpled the serviettes And I must have things daintily served. Are all the requisites all in the toilet? The frills around the cutlets can wait Till the girl has replenished the cruets And switched on the logs in the grate. It’s ever so close in the lounge, dear, But the vestibule’s comfy for tea And Howard is out riding on horseback So do come and take some with me. Now here is a fork for your pastries And do use the couch for your feet; I know what I wanted to ask you Is trifle sufficient for sweet? Milk and then just as it comes dear? I’m afraid the preserve’s full of stones; Beg pardon, I’m soiling the doilies With afternoon tea-cakes and scones SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >>>forks" as part of their cutlery set? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I think it's fish *knives* which are the defining feature. John Betjeman > hit the nail on the head perfectly: Right you are! My lapse just goes to show how close _I_ am (not) to old money! > How to Get On in Society If only! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >> forks" as part of their cutlery set? > >One is told that respectible persons don't even have fish forks. Ancient >silver services never included them, so possessing them merely advertises >that one comes from a family of Victorian parvenus. As Laura mentioned the problem is one of fish knives. The correct pre- Victorian method for eating fish used a pair of fish forks. I once dined at a very fancy restaurant where I had Dover Sole. The waiter boned the fish using a pair of forks. One doesn't expect that level of skill these days. SignatureGraeme Thomas >>> OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >>> forks" as part of their cutlery set? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > waiter boned the fish using a pair of forks. One doesn't expect that > level of skill these days. My mother, long ago and far away, taught me that fish is handled with two forks. I still don't put a knife to any fish served to me. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > My mother, long ago and far away, taught me that fish is handled with two > forks. I still don't put a knife to any fish served to me. Now, that's impressive -- all the more so from a man who eats pastrami with cheese. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >>>forks" as part of their cutlery set? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > waiter boned the fish using a pair of forks. One doesn't expect that > level of skill these days. How many restaurants even attempt silver service these days? Most restaurants seem to have the meal plated in the kitchen, and delivered by a runner. You're lucky if you even manage to get a clean knife and fork for a main course. Fran >> I once dined at a very fancy restaurant where I had Dover Sole. The >> waiter boned the fish using a pair of forks. One doesn't expect that >> level of skill these days. >How many restaurants even attempt silver service these days? Most >restaurants seem to have the meal plated in the kitchen, and delivered >by a runner. You're lucky if you even manage to get a clean knife and >fork for a main course. My parents live near a catering school. The canteen/restaurant is open to the general public, and the prices are fairly low. The menu is reasonably adventurous, and the portion size respectable. The only drawback is that the cooking and waiting is done by the students, and one can never be sure that the supervision is adequate. From time to time the meals are served with full silver service. I deduce, from my parents' tales, that the art of serving with forks is still being taught, and that success is not unknown. Failure isn't unknown either. The best advice is don't go there in September. SignatureGraeme Thomas >>>I once dined at a very fancy restaurant where I had Dover Sole. The >>>waiter boned the fish using a pair of forks. One doesn't expect that [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > drawback is that the cooking and waiting is done by the students, and > one can never be sure that the supervision is adequate. I have eaten at the restaurant of what used to be called Clarendon College in Nottingham (I think it is New College, now), where the food was excellent, and the service was OK. It wasn't silver service, though. > From time to time the meals are served with full silver service. I > deduce, from my parents' tales, that the art of serving with forks is > still being taught, and that success is not unknown. Failure isn't > unknown either. > > The best advice is don't go there in September. We went in the spring, so I would guess that most of the students knew as much as the college could teach them. My friend had heard similar advice about visiting the emergency room in a teaching hospital in the summer, when the new interns start. She had to visit the ER at her local hospital in July, when she broke her foot; her assigned "doctor" had to go and look in his textbook to check which bone in her foot was broken. Fran >> The best advice is don't go there in September. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > foot; her assigned "doctor" had to go and look in his textbook to > check which bone in her foot was broken. In the UK they graduate in July and start working full-time on August 1. August is a bad time to be ill, followed closely by February (when the 6-month rotation occurs). SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>> The best advice is don't go there in September. >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >August is a bad time to be ill, followed closely by February (when the >6-month rotation occurs). I spent Augusts through Octobers (and a lot of other months) as an in-patient during 1996 through 1999, and came across many newly-graduated doctors, all fresh, enthusiastic and energetic when they first appeared on the ward. After three months of 80-hour (and more) weeks on call, they looked as though they were mostly in need of medical attention themselves. SignatureRobin Herts, England [doctors] >>In the UK they graduate in July and start working full-time on August 1. >>August is a bad time to be ill, followed closely by February (when the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >more) weeks on call, they looked as though they were mostly in need of >medical attention themselves. Oh, they look fresh and enthusiastic and energetic but they're dangerous. True examples of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. And the more arrogant of them won't listen to a nurse pointing out that they're not acting in the patient's best interests, either. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary Roland Hutchinson filted: >> OK, switch to cutlery: does anybody else in England have "pie >> forks" as part of their cutlery set? > >One is told that respectible persons don't even have fish forks. Ancient >silver services never included them, so possessing them merely advertises >that one comes from a family of Victorian parvenus. How does one feel about grape scissors?...r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > How does one feel about grape scissors?...r Curious, so I looked them up. I'm pretty sure we don't have a pair, but there are many kinds... http://tinyurl.com/sd2fm SignatureMaria >> How does one feel about grape scissors?...r > >Curious, so I looked them up. I'm pretty sure we don't have a pair, but >there are many kinds... > >http://tinyurl.com/sd2fm We didn't have grape scissors, but we did have a dedicated pair of scissors for topping and tailing gooseberries. It looked very similar to the red-handled ones on that page, or to the yellow-handled "bonsai-grape" scissors further down. (I conjecture that "bonsai-grape" means "bonsai or grape" rather than scissors specially designed for bonsai-ing grape-vines.) SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>> How does one feel about grape scissors?...r >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (I conjecture that "bonsai-grape" means "bonsai or grape" rather than > scissors specially designed for bonsai-ing grape-vines.) It never ceases to amaze me how many tools we humans have. There's something for just about every chore we do, every task we tackle. Just look at all the things we have for taking care of personal (and pet) grooming. There's no end to it, is there? That's what "progress" is all about. SignatureMaria There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. On 03 Nov 2006, Maria wrote >>>> How does one feel about grape scissors?...r >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > There's no end to it, is there? That's what "progress" is all > about. Or what "marketing" is all about, he mused cynically. In the grand houses of the past, the requirement for a special pair of scissors for grapes sounds like a clever wheeze by a cutler whose clients have too much money, rather than addressing a specific functional problem... SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >On 03 Nov 2006, Maria wrote > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >whose clients have too much money, rather than addressing a >specific functional problem... I assumed that grape scissors were designed for harvesting grapes. Someone please enlighten me. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >I assumed that grape scissors were designed for harvesting >grapes. Someone please enlighten me. Some are, and some are designed to be used at the table. Refined people don't just tear off part of a bunch of grapes...they delicately snip them off. What bothers me is that I can't find a sterling silver spit cup for the seeds. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>I assumed that grape scissors were designed for harvesting >>grapes. Someone please enlighten me. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > What bothers me is that I can't find a sterling silver spit cup for > the seeds. You'll just have to keep looking, and practice eating unpeeled banannas with knife and dessert fork in the meantime. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. HVS filted: >>> It's the practice of using pourable rather than whipped cream >>> on desserts like cakes and pies -- an alien custom to me when I >>> first moved here, but one that wasn't difficult to get used to. > >I'm sure that's true -- but seeing someone trying to get runny cream >off their plate with a fork is....amusing. If you think that's bad, you should try it with chopsticks....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > [being right about this doesn't negate my being weird in general] Chacun a son gout and all that, but I won't be breakfasting with you. Ever. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Do you put sugar on fried egg on toast? On scrambled egg on toast? >> Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean it requires >> sugar? And don't get me started about cinnamon. I agree. I'm not generally a fan of sugary breakfasts. I have never eaten French Toast, and it's been decades since I had pain perdu. But the Omrud is right: salt is the required condiment, not sugar or syrup. Once in a great while I could manage (American) pancakes with a little maple syrup for breakfast. But that's only because I like the flavour of the syrup. >> [being right about this doesn't negate my being weird in general] I cannot disagree. >Chacun a son gout and all that, but I won't be breakfasting with you. Ever. That's harsh. I have no objections to seeing other people stuff themselves with sugary confections for breakfast. All I ask is for similar freedom to have salt on my French toast or porridge. (I once breakfasted with some Scots. We had porridge. I was the only person there who added salt: the others all added sugar. WIWAL I was taught that the Scots all ate porridge with salt, but I have learned, to my cost, that this is not so.) SignatureGraeme Thomas > (I once breakfasted with some Scots. We had porridge. I was the only > person there who added salt: the others all added sugar. WIWAL I was > taught that the Scots all ate porridge with salt, but I have learned, to > my cost, that this is not so.) To my knowledge, the salt is added during the cooking process not as an accompaniment. SignatureRay UK >> (I once breakfasted with some Scots. We had porridge. I was the >> only person there who added salt: the others all added sugar. WIWAL [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > To my knowledge, the salt is added during the cooking process not as > an accompaniment. I am confident that my brother-in-law would salt his porridge at the table. I say that because he puts salt on everything. Even ice cream. I am not kidding. SignatureMaria >I am confident that my brother-in-law would salt his porridge at the >table. Good man! >I say that because he puts salt on everything. Even ice cream. That, I trow, is taking things too far. I remember an article in _New Scientist_ around 30 years ago discussing autocondimentation habits. It seems that a significant number of people want to add salt to food themselves, and will not be happy unless allowed to do so. It doesn't matter how salty the food is to start with. I don't think that the researchers studied autocondimentation of ice cream, though. >I am not kidding. Perish the thought. SignatureGraeme Thomas LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > > HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Chacun a son gout and all that, but I won't be breakfasting with you. Ever. All this discussion relates for me only to restaurant breakfasts. At home I only ever have cereal (cold - I wouldn't have thought of specifying before yesterday) and/or bread products - toast, bagels. Marmite features. One of the few pleasures gained from being away on business is the bacon sandwich for breakfast. SignatureDavid ===== > HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: >> On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote >>> Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> had it: >>>>> LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: >>>>>>> And what about "French toast"? >>>>> Known in my childhood as "egg dip". >>>>>> Yes, indeed. Pain perdu, a treat from my childhood, but not >>>>>> at breakfast. >>>>> Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. >>>> Sugar? Not in my house. Maple syrup, please! >>> Perhaps I should have said "sugars". It's sweetness I object to >>> on French Toast. Indeed, my version "egg dip" has salt >>> sprinkled on it. >> Sorry, David -- "French toast with salt" is just weird. >> >> (No arguments allowed: own up -- you're weird....) > Do you put sugar on fried egg on toast? On scrambled egg on toast? > Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean it requires > sugar? And don't get me started about cinnamon. Quite right, French toast, or "eggy bread", is a savoury meal, you could have it with ketchup or bacon or baked beans, but never sugar or syrup. Matthew Huntbach Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> had it: > > HVS <harvey.news@ntlworld.com> had it: > >> On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Quite right, French toast, or "eggy bread", is a savoury meal, you could have > it with ketchup or bacon or baked beans, but never sugar or syrup. Ah, so. I may be weird, but I'm not alone. Note, of course, Matthew's use of the UK "savoury", meaning "not sweet". I wouldn't go as far as "salty" - an egg sandwich is a "savoury" food even though it's not specifically salty. SignatureDavid ===== > Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sweet". I wouldn't go as far as "salty" - an egg sandwich is a > "savoury" food even though it's not specifically salty. Indeed. We know from past discussions that UK cuisine (= BrE "cookery") is characterized by strict dietary prohibitions on mixtures of sweet and savoury. In the US, such prohibitions are comparatively minimal (though certainly not entirely absent), and there may even be preferences for certain kinds of complex combinations of sweet and 'savoury' flavor tones. The term "savoury" (or, using its AmE spelling, "savory") seems to be used much less often in AmE than it is in BrE, and there's got to be some significance to that. (I usually see "savory" on labels of food packages.) SignatureBuckwheat Soba Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > > Matthew Huntbach <mmh@dcs.qmul.ac.uk> had it: > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is characterized by strict dietary prohibitions on mixtures of sweet and > savoury. Perhaps, but there are specific and recognised exceptions: - Pineapple on pizza (yuk, yuk, yuk) - Pineapple on gammon - Sweet & Sour Chicken - Apple sauce with pork - Cranberry sauce with turkey (this is known to be American) Nobody un-ironically puts sultanas into their curry these days. Also, it's always acceptable to mix fruit with cheese - hence the "cheese and pineapple" hedgehog, beloved of 1970s dinner parties. SignatureDavid ===== On 01 Nov 2006, the Omrud wrote > Nobody un-ironically puts sultanas into their curry these days. I discovered only about a week ago the definitional difference between raisins and sultanas. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS filted: >On 01 Nov 2006, the Omrud wrote > >> Nobody un-ironically puts sultanas into their curry these days. > >I discovered only about a week ago the definitional difference >between raisins and sultanas. I'm *still* awaiting compelling evidence that there's any difference between salsa and gazpacho other than presentation....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >HVS filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I'm *still* awaiting compelling evidence that there's any difference between >salsa and gazpacho other than presentation....r Is this one of those trick questions where "salsa" means something different than here in the Southwest? ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>I'm *still* awaiting compelling evidence that there's any difference between >>salsa and gazpacho other than presentation....r > >Is this one of those trick questions where "salsa" means >something different than here in the Southwest? Not at all...you see the dish of salsa you were given with your tortilla chips?...tomatoes, peppers, cilantro, served below room temperature?...now take away the chips and stick a spoon in it.... Scary, isn't it?...r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Hatunen filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Scary, isn't it?...r No cucumber for gazpacho. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>Hatunen filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >No cucumber for gazpacho. No cucumber for either, in my experience.... Mind you, I know they do things funny in the Old Pueblo...what's the deal with ordering a taco and getting half a hamburger patty with a tortilla folded around it?...had that happen at two unrelated and highly-recommended Tucson eateries.... (And then there's the time my blue-cheese salad dressing turned out to be creamy horseradish sauce, but they swore that was a mistake)....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Hatunen filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >No cucumber for either, in my experience.... Odd. I believe cucumber is a standard ingredient for gazpacho. At least the on-line recipes so indicate. I hate raw cucumber so also dislike gazpacho. >Mind you, I know they do things funny in the Old Pueblo...what's the deal with >ordering a taco and getting half a hamburger patty with a tortilla folded around >it?...had that happen at two unrelated and highly-recommended Tucson >eateries.... Tell me which ones and I might check it out. I've not run across this oddity. >(And then there's the time my blue-cheese salad dressing turned out to be creamy >horseradish sauce, but they swore that was a mistake)....r I certainly hope so. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>Mind you, I know they do things funny in the Old Pueblo...what's the deal with >>ordering a taco and getting half a hamburger patty with a tortilla folded around [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Tell me which ones and I might check it out. I've not run across >this oddity. The first was Mi Nidito, near downtown, where my niece took us all after she got her hood.... The second was El Charro, just east of Park Mall....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Hatunen filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >The second was El Charro, just east of Park Mall....r It's hard to imagine either serving such a thing and calling it a taco. I'm not overly fond of Mi Nidito (even if Bill Clinton is; he ate there yesterday) but I might try it again. I much prefer Micha's. I've not been to El Charro East, but I have been to El Charro Downtown and North. I don't ordinarliy order tacos in restaurants like that. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > The first was Mi Nidito, near downtown, where my niece took us all > after she got her hood.... I give. What does "got her hood" mean? Graduated? Became a nun? What? (Just in case: No disrespect meant by my question.) SignatureMaria >> The first was Mi Nidito, near downtown, where my niece took us all >> after she got her hood.... > > I give. What does "got her hood" mean? Graduated? Became a nun? What? > > (Just in case: No disrespect meant by my question.) I read this as: Received her doctorate, on which occasion she was ceremonially presented with a doctoral hood to wear with her academic gown. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >>> The first was Mi Nidito, near downtown, where my niece took us all >>> after she got her hood.... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I read this as: Received her doctorate, on which occasion she was >ceremonially presented with a doctoral hood to wear with her academic gown. We're fresh out of sheep, but Thank You nonetheless...r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > We're fresh out of sheep, Please, Sir, it wasn't me! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> had it: > Odd. I believe cucumber is a standard ingredient for gazpacho. At > least the on-line recipes so indicate. I hate raw cucumber so > also dislike gazpacho. Raw? I don't think I've ever had cooked cucumber. SignatureDavid ===== >Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Raw? I don't think I've ever had cooked cucumber. Are pickles raw? ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> had it: > >Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Are pickles raw? Surely. Are gherkins cucumbers? SignatureDavid ===== > >Hatunen <hatunen@cox.net> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Are pickles raw? Depends. There are "refrigerator pickles" that aren't really cooked. Canned pickles are cooked. Brian SignatureIf televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com) > Hatunen filted: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Scary, isn't it?...r Dear me, what is aue coming to? Where is the robustness of yesteryear? First we have someone who is "shocked" by President Bush's lack of linguistic competence and now we have someone who finds the resemblance of salsa to gazpacho "scary". Pull your socks up, chaps. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > Dear me, what is aue coming to? Where is the robustness of yesteryear? > First we have someone who is "shocked" by President Bush's lack of > linguistic competence and now we have someone who finds the > resemblance of salsa to gazpacho "scary". Pull your socks up, chaps. There's a phrase I like: "Pull your socks up, chaps." It beats "oh, grow up" by a country mile. SignatureMaria >Nobody un-ironically puts sultanas into their curry these days. Oh dear. I must stock up on irony. Katy (who just likes sultanas) K. Edgcombe <ke10@cus.cam.ac.uk> had it: > >Nobody un-ironically puts sultanas into their curry these days. > > Oh dear. I must stock up on irony. > > Katy (who just likes sultanas) Damn. Must never say "nobody". SignatureDavid ===== >We know from past discussions that UK cuisine (= BrE "cookery") >is characterized by strict dietary prohibitions on mixtures of sweet and >savoury. Right. I must have dreamt pork and apple sauce, venison and redcurrant jelly, fruit cake and cheese, apple and cheese, duck and orange. Eiterh that or I must have been fed them under conditions of strict secrecy. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>We know from past discussions that UK cuisine (= BrE "cookery") >>is characterized by strict dietary prohibitions on mixtures of sweet and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > orange. Eiterh that or I must have been fed them under conditions of > strict secrecy. <applause> (Did you get my email, Katy?) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>We know from past discussions that UK cuisine (= BrE "cookery") >>>is characterized by strict dietary prohibitions on mixtures of sweet and [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >(Did you get my email, Katy?) It hasn't made it so far, but give it time - the poor thing's got to go, oh, must be nearly fifteen miles. It may show up exhausted on the doorstep tomorrow morning. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > Right. I must have dreamt pork and apple sauce, venison and > redcurrant jelly, Do you guys do lamb and mint (-flavored apple) jelly, or is that an Americanism? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Now every hacker knows 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | That the secret to survivin' Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Is knowin' when the time is free | And what's the load and queue kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |'Cause everyone's a cruncher (650)857-7572 | And everyone's a user |And the best that you can hope for http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Is a crash when you're through Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> had it: > > Right. I must have dreamt pork and apple sauce, venison and > > redcurrant jelly, > > Do you guys do lamb and mint (-flavored apple) jelly, or is that an > Americanism? Mint sauce is the accompaniment to lamb, but I think it only contains mint and vinegar. I'm not fond of vinegar so I never take any. SignatureDavid ===== >Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Mint sauce is the accompaniment to lamb, but I think it only contains >mint and vinegar. I'm not fond of vinegar so I never take any. My father always made it with mint, vinegar and sugar. And we do have clear sweet mint jelly - and it's quite nice with lamb if you can't make real mint sauce (it's better, IMAO, than bought mint sauce - the real mintiness doesn't keep). SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon >>Right. I must have dreamt pork and apple sauce, venison and >>redcurrant jelly, > > Do you guys do lamb and mint (-flavored apple) jelly, or is that an > Americanism? Mint sauce, if you please, preferably freshly made with mint picked from the garden. Mint jelly sounds quite horrible. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Do you guys do lamb and mint (-flavored apple) jelly, or is that an >> Americanism? > > Mint sauce, if you please, preferably freshly made with mint picked from > the garden. Mint jelly sounds quite horrible. It is. (It's the AmE clear-jam sort of jelly, not the BrE gelatine sort, in case anyone was in doubt.) Mind you, I don't really think that mint sauce is all that much of an improvement. I like roast lamb nice and pink and garlicky. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> Do you guys do lamb and mint (-flavored apple) jelly, or is that an >>> Americanism? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I like roast lamb nice and pink and garlicky. As do I, but I still find some mint sauce to be tasty with it (Cross & Blackwell only, please). ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * On 01 Nov 2006, Hatunen wrote >> I like roast lamb nice and pink and garlicky. > > As do I, but I still find some mint sauce to be tasty with it > (Cross & Blackwell only, please). You *buy* your mint sauce instead of just mixing some up? SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >>> Do you guys do lamb and mint (-flavored apple) jelly, or is that an >>> Americanism? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (It's the AmE clear-jam sort of jelly, not the BrE gelatine sort, in > case anyone was in doubt.) It is possible to make a good mint jelly for lamb, but I don't think it can be bought anywhere. Crab apples and a dry white wine (little or no sugar or vinegar). Perhaps a bit of rosemary along with the mint. -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au The LFS entity posted thusly: >>>Right. I must have dreamt pork and apple sauce, venison and >>>redcurrant jelly, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Mint sauce, if you please, preferably freshly made with mint picked from >the garden. Mint jelly sounds quite horrible. Mint jelly is wonderful, right up until it's put on meat. >>We know from past discussions that UK cuisine (= BrE "cookery") >>is characterized by strict dietary prohibitions on mixtures of sweet and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >orange. Eiterh that or I must have been fed them under conditions of >strict secrecy. However none of these is very nice if the sweet thing is too sweet. I'd go so far as to say that with meat the sugar in the tracklement is only there to counteract the tartness of the other ingredients. Apple sauce has to be made of Bramleys, redcurrant (or, preferably, quince) jelly has a tart fruit and the orange sauce is best made with Seville oranges. With cheese, a crisp apple, that is, one with a bit of acidity, is best, I find, and not all cheeses work. Stilton is best and it has a certain sweetness of its own. Mike 'come over all peckish' Page >>We know from past discussions that UK cuisine (= BrE "cookery") >>is characterized by strict dietary prohibitions on mixtures of sweet and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >orange. Eiterh that or I must have been fed them under conditions of >strict secrecy. When I was a student, one of the desserts served quite regularly was: an apple, some Cheddar cheese, digestive biscuits, and black treacle. These could be, and were, eaten in any combination or sequence, but it was better than it sounds. Katy >> Do you put sugar on fried egg on toast? On scrambled egg on toast? >> Why does soaking the bread in the egg before frying mean it requires [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > could have it with ketchup or bacon or baked beans, but never sugar > or syrup. You're both wrong. One of the nicest ways to eat eggy bread is to spread it with jam. This is second only to spreading it with Marmite before egging it. I wouldn't advise mixing the two recipes, however. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Quite right, French toast, or "eggy bread", is a savoury meal, you >> could have it with ketchup or bacon or baked beans, but never sugar >> or syrup. > > You're both wrong. One of the nicest ways to eat eggy bread is to > spread it with jam. Yes, but better still if you want the sweet version is bread and butter pudding. -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >(No arguments allowed: own up -- you're weird....) Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird to me. SignatureRobin Herts, England On 31 Oct 2006, Robin Bignall wrote >> On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird > to me. That's the point, really -- the egg's an *ingredient*, unless you're making it wrong. If French toast is just fried egg, then bread pudding is just milk or custard. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS filted: >If French toast is just fried egg, then bread pudding is just milk >or custard. And coffee is actually fruit juice....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird to me. French toast is not "fried egg", it's "fried bread custard", at least in my experience. (The egg is usually beaten with milk or cream before the bread is soaked.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > >Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird to me. > > French toast is not "fried egg", it's "fried bread custard", at least > in my experience. (The egg is usually beaten with milk or cream > before the bread is soaked.) So what? I beat eggs with milk or cream before scrambling them, but that doesn't make scrambled eggs a sweet dish. I'm more likely to add chives and smoked salmon to the recipe than cinnamon and sugar. I skip all hot and/or heavily sweetened foods at breakfast, on holiday or at home, and just have fruit or yoghurt, but US hotels seem to think that some kind of flavoured blancmange is acceptable as yoghurt, and I can't have fruit if there's pineapple in the assortment, so I usually wind up going hungry, despite the tons of food available. The hotel where the concierge took pity on me and brought me a tub of freshly-cut melon chunks was the best ever. Jac >> >Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird to >> >me. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So what? I beat eggs with milk or cream before scrambling them, but > that doesn't make scrambled eggs a sweet dish. Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing up omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly and then rolled? I don't eat them that way anymore, but I'm pretty sure my dad does. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A burro is an a.s. A burrow is a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |hole in the ground. As a Palo Alto, CA 94304 |journalist, you are expected to |know the difference. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | UPI Stylebook (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing up > omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly > and then rolled? I, for one, am grossed out, Erk. Is that a Chicago (TLCIA) thing? Say it ain't so. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >> Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing up >> omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly >> and then rolled? > > I, for one, am grossed out, Erk. Is that a Chicago (TLCIA) thing? > Say it ain't so. If you like. "It ain't so." Besides the Fanny Farmer cookbook, I see a 1939 ad for the Madison Room at the Biltmore Hotel (which, I believe, may be in one of the more distant suburbs of Chicago) in the _NY Times_ [9/21/1939], listing "Currant Jelly Omelet" among the options on the luncheon menu. In 1943, an ad there touting "How to get the most out of your red and blue points", giving menus (for "breakfast", "dinner", and "supper") for each day of the week lists jelly omelets in their Sunday breakfast. They actually get mentioned a few times in the _NY Times_ in 1943, with the implication that they were pushed due to shortages of meat and fresh fruit. But the first jelly omelet recipe in the _NY Times_ is from 1914. I can't say that it was common in New York City, but it sounds as though it would have been known, at least to people of a certain age. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Ye knowe ek, that in forme of speche 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | is chaunge Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Withinne a thousand yer, and wordes | tho kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |That hadden prys now wonder nyce and (650)857-7572 | straunge |Us thenketh hem, and yet they spake http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | hem so | Chaucer >>> Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing up >>> omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >but it sounds as though it would have been known, at least to people >of a certain age. To hell with jelly omelets. You may have to explain "red" and "blue points" for people not of a certain age. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Buckwheat Soba filted: >> Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing up >> omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly >> and then rolled? > >I, for one, am grossed out, Erk. Is that a Chicago (TLCIA) thing? Say it >ain't so. Sounds like a "near as we can get to a real blintz" thing....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Buckwheat Soba filted: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sounds like a "near as we can get to a real blintz" thing....r You can't tell a blintz from an omelette? Oy. SignatureLaura, who has been thinking about breakfast all day (emulate St. George for email) LFS filted: >> Buckwheat Soba filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >You can't tell a blintz from an omelette? Oy. Certainly...this a simple matter of "we don't have on hand what it would take to make a blintz, but with what's in the house, we can do x*"...it's the same thing that leads to salmon croquettes with crushed potato chips as the binder....r * where x is Erk's "omelets...were covered...in strawberry jelly and then rolled". Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. } LFS filted: }> }> }>> Buckwheat Soba filted: }>> }>>>Evan Kirshenbaum wrote: }>>> }>>>>Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing up }>>>>omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly }>>>>and then rolled? }>>> }>>>I, for one, am grossed out, Erk. Is that a Chicago (TLCIA) thing? Say it }>>>ain't so. }>> }>> Sounds like a "near as we can get to a real blintz" thing....r }> }>You can't tell a blintz from an omelette? Oy. } } Certainly...this a simple matter of "we don't have on hand what it would take to } make a blintz, but with what's in the house, we can do x*"...it's the same thing } that leads to salmon croquettes with crushed potato chips as the binder....r } } * where x is Erk's "omelets...were covered...in strawberry jelly and then } rolled". Is this the place to mention that I got an ad in the mail today for Domino's Pizza's "New Brooklyn style PIZZA": "Hand-stretched Thin Crust", "Extra Large Toppings", "With Your Choice of Extra Large Brooklyn Style Pepperoni or Sausage Toppings", "$9.99 LaRge Make it an X-Large Pizza For Only $2 More!", "You must ask for this offer when ordering. Not available with any other offer. Limited time offer." All right here in North East in Cecil County, Maryland (the state that's shaped like a hand-gun). Signaturerjv "Delivery charge may apply." > Is this the place to mention that I got an ad in the mail today for > Domino's Pizza's "New Brooklyn style PIZZA": Well, you've soitenly come to the right newsgroup; no doubt about that. > "Hand-stretched Thin Crust", > "Extra Large Toppings", "With Your Choice of Extra Large Brooklyn Style [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > All right here in North East in Cecil County, Maryland (the state that's > shaped like a hand-gun). There have been TV ads for it all over the dial here in North Jersey -- i.e., the NYC television stations! Talk about chutzpah! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Is this the place to mention that I got an ad in the mail today for > Domino's Pizza's "New Brooklyn style PIZZA": "Hand-stretched Thin Crust", > "Extra Large Toppings", "With Your Choice of Extra Large Brooklyn Style > Pepperoni or Sausage Toppings", "$9.99 LaRge Make it an X-Large Pizza For > Only $2 More!", "You must ask for this offer when ordering. Not available > with any other offer. Limited time offer." That's ironic, as we Brits say, for several reasons, including: (a) Brooklyn (FLCIA) was long-known for having the best Sicilian pizza in New York city (LCIA) (at Queen Pizzeria, which however no longer exists I believe), and, as I've explained to Erk before, Sicilian pizza is characterized by what one might call a very thick crust; (b) "toppings" are a custom of the goyim, and true Brooklynites would eschew pepperoni; (c) Domino's "pizza" is, well, "pizza", not pizza, though it's not ""pizza"" the way Chicago """pizza""" is. . SignatureBuckwheat Soba > Is this the place to mention that I got an ad in the mail today for > Domino's Pizza's "New Brooklyn style PIZZA": "Hand-stretched Thin [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > All right here in North East in Cecil County, Maryland (the state > that's shaped like a hand-gun). It's available and advertised here too. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> had it: > >> >Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird to > >> >me. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly > and then rolled? Yes, but partly because it shouldn't be possible to roll an omelette. They should be too thick and fluffy for that. SignatureDavid ===== > Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> had it: >> Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing up >> omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry jelly >> and then rolled? > > Yes, but partly because it shouldn't be possible to roll an omelette. > They should be too thick and fluffy for that. I hate omelettes that are thick and fluffy because they taste too much of egg. And often underdone-egg at that. A nice thin omelette is what I grew up with, and I wouldn't wince at the idea of spreading one with jam and rolling it up. I may have to try it, now it's been mentioned. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>Evan Kirshenbaum <kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > grew up with, and I wouldn't wince at the idea of spreading one with jam > and rolling it up. I may have to try it, now it's been mentioned. I agree - omelettes should be thin. If I want thick and fluffy, I'll make scrambled eggs or a souffle. I can report, after experimenting this lunchtime, that the jam omelette is less palatable than I had expected. I was compelled to follow it with toast and Marmite. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> A nice thin omelette is what I >> grew up with, and I wouldn't wince at the idea of spreading one with jam [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >is less palatable than I had expected. I was compelled to follow it with >toast and Marmite. Damn, and it was only a day or two ago that we were eating corned beef hash, followed by malt loaf. Still, I like to think I'm keeping up, no expense spared. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>>Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird to >>>>me. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > I don't eat them that way anymore, but I'm pretty sure my dad does. Sounds yummy, although I assume the cheese/mushrooms/parsley are left out... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing >> up omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Sounds yummy, although I assume the cheese/mushrooms/parsley are > left out... Yeah. These were just egg (and perhaps a little milk. Googling, I see that the original (1896) Fanny Farmer _Boston Cooking-School Cookbook_ has a recipe for "jelly omelet": Mix and cook Plain Omelet, omitting pepper and one-half the salt, and adding one tablespoon sugar. Spread before folding with jam, jelly, or marmalade. Fold, turn, and sprinkle with sugar. [p. 99] Since I'm looking, the earliest recipe I see for "French Toast" is from Thomas Nichols' 1872 _How to Cook_: Dip slices of bread into a batter made of three eggs and one pint of milk; place them in a pan of boiling oil or butter, and fry brown. Sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on each piece, and serve hot. That sounds more deep fried than the current dish, but it was obviously thought of as a sweet dish, although it wasn't eaten with syrup. The 1906 U.S. Army _Recipes Used in the Cooking Schools_ is pan-fried, but doesn't talk about putting anything on it: Take 2 loaves old bread left, and cut in slices. Beat 3 eggs well together. Add ½ pint milk, and season with salt and pepper. Add 2 tablespoonfuls of sugar. Put on stove in frying pan with 2 ounces butter. Dip the slices of bread in the egg batter and put in pan and fry a nice brown. Serve hot. The recipe in the 1910 _Manual for Army Cooks_ (which starts with 17 pounds of bread) includes "sirup" in the ingredients list, but never mentions it, saying only "Serve hot with butter". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I like giving talks to industry, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |because one of the things that I've Palo Alto, CA 94304 |found is that you really can't |learn anything at the Harvard kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |Business School. (650)857-7572 | Clayton Christensen | Harvard Business School http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>>Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing >>>up omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > of milk; place them in a pan of boiling oil or butter, and fry > brown. Sprinkle sugar and cinnamon on each piece, and serve hot. See, you savoury wimps? Sugar and cinnamon! Definitive in the classic version. Thanks for finding that, Evan. <snip> SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>Is it going to gross anybody out to learn that when I was growing >>>>up omelets in my house were covered (at the table) in strawberry [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >See, you savoury wimps? Sugar and cinnamon! Definitive in the classic >version. Thanks for finding that, Evan. Savoury wimp. Yummy! Who's got a recipe. SignatureRobin Herts, England >> >Hmm. Putting anything sugary on what is fried egg sounds weird to me. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >that doesn't make scrambled eggs a sweet dish. I'm more likely to add >chives and smoked salmon to the recipe than cinnamon and sugar. That's exactly it, Jac. This French toast is essentially bread soaked in scrambled egg mixture and then fried. Definitely a savoury. (We used to have it during the war, but we couldn't get the eggs so we called it "fried bread".) One of my favourite scrambled egg additions is shredded corn beef. As to Evan's rolled omelets, my mother used to make a very eggy pancake mixture (scrambled egg mixture using dried egg, and with a little flour to stiffen it) which were griddled, rolled, and filled with jam or marmalade. They were good. SignatureRobin Herts, England > On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote >> Perhaps I should have said "sugars". It's sweetness I object to >> on French Toast. Indeed, my version "egg dip" has salt [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (No arguments allowed: own up -- you're weird....) He is. Although there's something to be said for spreading a thin layer of marmite on the bread before dipping it in the milk. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> On 31 Oct 2006, the Omrud wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > He is. Although there's something to be said for spreading a thin layer > of marmite on the bread before dipping it in the milk. Curiouser and curiouser! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Perhaps I should have said "sugars". It's sweetness I object to on >French Toast. Indeed, my version "egg dip" has salt sprinkled on it. Since the syrup is applied by the eater, the eater is free to have his or her French toast as sweet, or not sweet, as preferred. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >>Sara Lorimer <que.sara.saraDELETE@gmail.com> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >have his or her French toast as sweet, or not sweet, as >preferred. But in a restaurant, some sadistic bastard in the kitchen destroys the dish with a sprinkling of sugar. > The Hatunen entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > But in a restaurant, some sadistic bastard in the kitchen destroys the > dish with a sprinkling of sugar. Right. This is a peculiar thing -- in restaurants French toast seems customarily to be served with sprinkled confectioners' sugar in these latter days, while traditionally it was never thus prepared. SignatureBuckwheat Soba > Right. This is a peculiar thing -- in restaurants French toast seems > customarily to be served with sprinkled confectioners' sugar in these > latter days, while traditionally it was never thus prepared. In the Netherlands, we had poffertjes for breakfast on occasion. They are small (perhaps 3cm in diameter) buckwheat pancakes, and were invariably served with sprinkled powdered sugar. Perhaps the french toast makers are borrowing this hallowed tradition. -=Eric (mmmm, poffertjes) >LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. I don't know that there is a "US version". My wife makes French toast without any sugar, but may lightly sprinkle some powdered sugar on top for appearance. The sweetness is from the syrup. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it: > >LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > without any sugar, but may lightly sprinkle some powdered sugar on top > for appearance. The sweetness is from the syrup. Sorry, I didn't distinguish between different forms of sweetness. Syrup is just another form of sugar. SignatureDavid ===== > Sorry, I didn't distinguish between different forms of sweetness. > Syrup is just another form of sugar. I hope you'd say the same of BrE "treacle". SignatureBuckwheat Soba Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > > Sorry, I didn't distinguish between different forms of sweetness. > > Syrup is just another form of sugar. > > I hope you'd say the same of BrE "treacle". I would. I don't want any of that on my egg dip either. However, "treacle" means two things. Formally, it is black and viscous and used for baking and for making treacle toffee. But we also informally use the word for "golden syrup" which is used to make "treacle tart", which contains no treacle. SignatureDavid ===== > Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > also informally use the word for "golden syrup" which is used to make > "treacle tart", which contains no treacle. As pointed out on Heston Blumenthal's cookery programme on Tuesday. He made a variety of treacles and none of them tasted as good in a tart as Golden Syrup. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary > the Omrud wrote: >> LFS had it: >>>> And what about "French toast"? >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > without any sugar, but may lightly sprinkle some powdered sugar on top > for appearance. The sweetness is from the syrup. That's the way I know French toast. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >without any sugar, but may lightly sprinkle some powdered sugar on top >for appearance. The sweetness is from the syrup. I agree, and preferably maple syrup. Isn't Vermont best known for it, or am I thinking of Virginia? SignatureCharles Riggs >>I don't know that there is a "US version". My wife makes French toast >>without any sugar, but may lightly sprinkle some powdered sugar on top >>for appearance. The sweetness is from the syrup. > > I agree, and preferably maple syrup. Isn't Vermont best known for it, > or am I thinking of Virginia? Vermont, I think. It has the appropriate climate. Isn't it also Vermont where people traditionally ate mixtures of snow and maple sap? SignatureBuckwheat Soba >>>LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >I agree, and preferably maple syrup. Isn't Vermont best known for it, >or am I thinking of Virginia? Vermont. But Vermont sells a limited amount, much of it to advance customers so most the maple syrup sold in stores comes from Quebec. Geauga County in northeast Ohio is also known for its maple syrup, and has a sort of droll competition with Vermont. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >Vermont. But Vermont sells a limited amount, much of it to >advance customers so most the maple syrup sold in stores comes >from Quebec. Probably true in Tucson, but not here. I'd say it's about 50-50 local and foreign, with the "local" coming from Vermont and other nearby states.[1] State law in Vermont requires anyone bottling maple syrup to label it with their own name and address (even if they didn't make it). You don't tend to see those packages in supermarkets down here, but in-state they will be in every store. There's some talk that the Vermont maple products industry may be on the decline, as a result of climate change. -GAWollman [1] FWIW, the top three producers are Vermont, New York, and Maine, which together accounted for 71% of U.S. production in 2002. Agriculture is one of Vermont's largest industries, although much of it is moving from low-margin commodity products towards less-competitive markets. The breakdown goes something like this (2001 statistics, in $millions): milk 420, beef 60, hay 44, field corn 42, produce 23, apples 9, Christmas trees 9, maple syrup 8, eggs 3, sweet corn 1.6, honey 0.5, and hogs 0.5. The hay and field corn are feed for the cattle. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness The the Omrud entity posted thusly: >LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. Yes, when did that start? I now have to order it "without sugar", which I sometimes forget. It's the functional equivalent of having to order a steak without sh.t. > The the Omrud entity posted thusly: >> LFS had it: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > which I sometimes forget. It's the functional equivalent of having to > order a steak without sh.t. It normally comes "with" where you dine? SIAS. (Just emulating Bucky.) SignatureMaria The Maria entity posted thusly: >> The the Omrud entity posted thusly: >>> LFS had it: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >It normally comes "with" where you dine? SIAS. (Just emulating Bucky.) Depends on your antecedent. Steaks or french toast. French toast served in a restaurant usually comes with icing sugar (confectioner's sugar) sprinkled liberally on it, and in order to enjoy it, I have to remember to ask that it be left off. I really enjoy sweet foods, but french toast, pancakes, and waffles are three things that I never put sugar or syrup on. I will eat them with lots of butter, though. Another annoying habit of many restaurants is their seeming inability to tell the difference between toast and pancakes. Any breakfast served with one, is never offered with both, even to the extent that the menu will state "choice of toast or pancakes". > The Maria entity posted thusly: >>> The the Omrud entity posted thusly: >>>> Except that the US version is swamped in sugar. Ghastly. >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Depends on your antecedent. Steaks or french toast. [...] Steak. (I'd hate to have to specify "without sh.t" when ordering a nice T-bone.) > Another annoying habit of many restaurants is their seeming inability > to tell the difference between toast and pancakes. Any breakfast > served with one, is never offered with both, Then, they must be able to tell the difference, yes? > .........even to the extent that > the menu will state "choice of toast or pancakes". Maybe they think that most people wouldn't want both. But it's likely they'd serve you both if you said you wanted both (after informing you that they'd have to charge you for the extra "side order"). SignatureMaria The Maria entity posted thusly: >> The Maria entity posted thusly: >>>> The the Omrud entity posted thusly: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Steak. (I'd hate to have to specify "without sh.t" when ordering a nice >T-bone.) Well, that was my point. Steak does not normally come with sh.t, and having to specify that it be served without is not something we should have to do. Likewise with French Toast and sugar. >> Another annoying habit of many restaurants is their seeming inability >> to tell the difference between toast and pancakes. Any breakfast >> served with one, is never offered with both, > >Then, they must be able to tell the difference, yes? To me, that says they don't know the difference. In effect, they are saying "You already have <whatever>." >> .........even to the extent that >> the menu will state "choice of toast or pancakes". > >Maybe they think that most people wouldn't want both. But it's likely >they'd serve you both if you said you wanted both (after informing you >that they'd have to charge you for the extra "side order"). I'm sure they would, but that doesn't stop the nagging thought that there are people who see logic in the choice. > Well, that was my point. Steak does not normally come with sh.t, and > having to specify that it be served without is not something we > should have to do. Likewise with French Toast and sugar. I don't believe that I've come across a locale in which "French Toast", so called, is commonly served in which it *isn't* normally eaten topped with some sort of sweetener, typically either sugar or syrup. I don't even think I've seen a cookbook less than a hundred years old that has a recipe for something with that name that doesn't suggest serving them that way. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Oh, forget it: I can't write about 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |this anymore until I find a much Palo Alto, CA 94304 |more sarcastic typeface. | Bill Bickel kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ The Evan Kirshenbaum entity posted thusly: >> Well, that was my point. Steak does not normally come with sh.t, and >> having to specify that it be served without is not something we [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >years old that has a recipe for something with that name that doesn't >suggest serving them that way. I just checked my "Joy of Cooking", which has been in my posession for about 40 years, and was surprised to find the French Toast recipe showing a sprinkling of sugar. I have eaten French Toast most of my life, and have never sprinkled it with sugar, since my mother never did it either. It's only been in the last 10 years or so that I have been served French Toast ruined with sugar in restaurants. I suppose it's possible that it was always served this way, and that I had not ordered it in a restaurant before, of course. >> Well, that was my point. Steak does not normally come with sh.t, and >> having to specify that it be served without is not something we [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >years old that has a recipe for something with that name that doesn't >suggest serving them that way. The whole thing seems to hinge on whether the sweetener is on the French toast when served, or whether the diner adds it after being served. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > The Maria entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > To me, that says they don't know the difference. In effect, they are > saying "You already have <whatever>." Well, I sort of equate pancakes and toast, and normally would not want them together. >>> .........even to the extent that >>> the menu will state "choice of toast or pancakes". I've seen that, but it seems okay to me. >> Maybe they think that most people wouldn't want both. But it's likely >> they'd serve you both if you said you wanted both (after informing >> you that they'd have to charge you for the extra "side order"). > > I'm sure they would, but that doesn't stop the nagging thought that > there are people who see logic in the choice. Oh, dear. I'm one who sees a certain logic in the "either/or"; I think it has something to do with carbs. (Or is it starch?) SignatureMaria > LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > >>> And what about "French toast"? > > Known in my childhood as "egg dip". "Eggy bread", here. >> Yes, indeed. Pain perdu, a treat from my childhood, but not at >> breakfast. Definitely a breakfast food in our house. And at guide camps too. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Have you tried "biscuits and gravy"? That's a favorite in many >> restaurants here (and not just in the South). > >That sounds sort of meaty - not my thing at breakfast. The gravy is sausage gravy, and, usually, pork sausage gravy so you might eschew instead of chew in this case. Crumbles of sausage in the gravy. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL The LFS entity posted thusly: >>>>> I order porridge in >>>>> UK hotels but I know enough about Pondian differences to know that [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Yes, indeed. Pain perdu, a treat from my childhood, but not at breakfast. "Lost bread"? And why not for breakfast? It's bread and eggs, a little closer together than usual, but why not? > The LFS entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And why not for breakfast? It's bread and eggs, a little closer > together than usual, but why not? Speaking of which, in the _Rumpole_ books Rumpole sometimes eats a revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a slice of bread fried in lard or something? (HIATB?) SignatureBuckwheat Soba Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > > The LFS entity posted thusly: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a > slice of bread fried in lard or something? (HIATB?) Yes, but the preferred fat would be what's left after frying the bacon. I had not heard "fried slice" until perhaps 10 years ago - I think it's regional. I call the stuff "fried bread" and never make it at home but sometimes eat it in restaurants. I no longer fry bacon at home - it's always grilled (broiled), but then US breakfasters wouldn't recognise it as bacon. SignatureDavid ===== > I no longer fry > bacon at home - it's always grilled (broiled), but then US > breakfasters wouldn't recognise it as bacon. This has often been discussed in AUE, but I've never entirely understood it. When I was in the UK (admittedly many years ago) I had a lot of bacon there, and their bacon reminded me a lot of what I thought of as US bacon (in the same way that UK eggs reminded me of US eggs); I don't recall noticing anything unusual about it. So is it that I've been exposed to strange varieties of US bacon, or am I insensitive to differences in varieties of bacon? Now Canadian bacon, that's not bacon. That's much closer to ham. SignatureBuckwheat Soba Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > > I no longer fry > > bacon at home - it's always grilled (broiled), but then US [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > strange varieties of US bacon, or am I insensitive to differences in > varieties of bacon? Good British bacon is dry cured (no water) and cut thick. The cheaper stuff is "streaky", which is the same cut used for US bacon - this is ideal for putting over the turkey. The "better" cut is "back" which has far less fat and is wider than streaky. It's either grilled or shallow fried, but not to the point of being crispy throughout - it's meaty, something like thinly sliced gammon. It hasn't changed in 50 years, although mass production has robbed much of it of flavour. I have known a few people who would have liked to be vegetarians but couldn't consider giving up the bacon sandwich. US bacon has had all the flavour fried out of it (if it every had any), except for salt. It tastes to me like crispy salt sticks. SignatureDavid ===== > Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: [..] > The "better" cut is > "back" which has far less fat and is wider than streaky. It's > either grilled or shallow fried, but not to the point of being > crispy throughout - it's meaty, something like thinly sliced > gammon. It hasn't changed in 50 years, although mass production > has robbed much of it of flavour. Back bacon is what Prof. S. calls "Canadian bacon". >> Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > [..] [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Back bacon is what Prof. S. calls "Canadian bacon". Ah. So is BrE standard bacon really very similar to the kind of Canadian bacon we get in the US? It's possible that I have never had good-quality Canadian bacon (but I will say that I like Canadian bacon better than US bacon; I just don't think of it as bacon -- as I said, it's always seemed to me to be closer to ham). For one thing, all the Canadian bacon I've ever seen in the US has been prepackaged circular stuff. That can't be what UK bacon is like. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >>> Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: >> [..] [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Canadian bacon better than US bacon; I just don't think of it as > bacon -- as I said, it's always seemed to me to be closer to ham). Or "gammon"? > For one thing, all the Canadian bacon I've ever seen in the US has > been prepackaged circular stuff. That can't be what UK bacon is > like. The unsliced product may be sold as "peameal bacon", rolled in the appropriate coating. At least, I think that's what it was; the memory is fading. The Buckwheat Soba entity posted thusly: >>> Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: >> [..] [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >bacon; I just don't think of it as bacon -- as I said, it's always seemed >to me to be closer to ham). In Canada, it is illegal to call that product "Canadian Bacon" (well, it is illegal to have it called that on the package, the customer can call it whatever she wishes). We know it as either "back bacon: or "peameal bacon" depending on whether or not it's been rolled in cornmeal before being sliced. >For one thing, all the Canadian bacon I've ever seen in the US has been >prepackaged circular stuff. That can't be what UK bacon is like. We get it mostly prepackaged to, though it isn't quite circular. It's a loin cut, and the oval shape is natural, though I wouldn't be surprised if food packagers did some cutting to make a cheaper cut look like back bacon. > In Canada, it is illegal to call that product "Canadian Bacon" (well, > it is illegal to have it called that on the package, the customer can > call it whatever she wishes). Maple Leaf, one of the major Canadian brands, sells what they label as "CANADIAN BACK BACON". The three words are in successively larger type. (I just verified this at my local Dominion store last night; the company web site does not include an illustration of the product.) Another Canadian company, Mariposa Meats <http://www.mariposameats.com/>, has a brand name "The Canadian Back Bacon Co.", the logo showing all words the same size. In both cases, of course, the phrase is most naturally parsed with "Canadian" telling where the product comes from, not what it is. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "Pleasant dreams!" msb@vex.net | "I'll dream of Canada." -- THE SUSPECT My text in this article is in the public domain. The Mark Brader entity posted thusly: >> In Canada, it is illegal to call that product "Canadian Bacon" (well, >> it is illegal to have it called that on the package, the customer can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >a brand name "The Canadian Back Bacon Co.", the logo showing all words >the same size. I noticed that today, in a Superstore. My comments were based on the law as she was writ 20 or 30 years ago, and it may have changed. >In both cases, of course, the phrase is most naturally parsed with >"Canadian" telling where the product comes from, not what it is. I noticed that as well. There were at least three different products, all containing the full "Canadian Back Bacon" phrase. I suspect it's a way to get the "Canadian" on the package through a loophole in the statute. > Ah. So is BrE standard bacon really very similar to the kind of Canadian > bacon we get in the US? It's possible that I have never had good-quality [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > For one thing, all the Canadian bacon I've ever seen in the US has been > prepackaged circular stuff. That can't be what UK bacon is like. "Prepackaged circular" sounds like gammon, not bacon. http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/0/5000462381230_200.jpg - back bacon http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/6/5000462585546_200.jpg - streaky bacon http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/8/5051140361808_200.jpg - middle bacon http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/4/5051008899924_200.jpg - gammon Jac >> Ah. So is BrE standard bacon really very similar to the kind of Canadian >> bacon we get in the US? It's possible that I have never had good-quality [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/0/5000462381230_200.jpg - back bacon Looks kind of like Canadian bacon. > http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/6/5000462585546_200.jpg - streaky bacon Looks kind of like (ordinary AmE) bacon. > http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/8/5051140361808_200.jpg - middle bacon Looks a bit like _pancetta_. > http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/4/5051008899924_200.jpg - gammon That doesn't look like AmE Canadian bacon. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >>> Ah. So is BrE standard bacon really very similar to the kind of Canadian >>> bacon we get in the US? It's possible that I have never had [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Looks kind of like Canadian bacon. But not cured at all the same. Canadian bacon is cured like ham. >> http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/6/5000462585546_200.jpg - streaky bacon > > Looks kind of like (ordinary AmE) bacon. But only kind of. >> http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/8/5051140361808_200.jpg - middle bacon > > Looks a bit like _pancetta_. But just a bit. Comes from higher on the hog, maybe?? >> http://www.tesco.com/pi/xpi/4/5051008899924_200.jpg - gammon > > That doesn't look like AmE Canadian bacon. No, but it tastes more like it than any of the others. There's a pretty good explanation of un-American bacons at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > There's a pretty good explanation of un-American bacons at > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon "Un-American bacons" might better be "non-American bacon(s)." ("Non" is somehow nicer than "un." Less challenging.) SignatureMaria >> There's a pretty good explanation of un-American bacons at >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > ("Non" is somehow nicer than "un." Less challenging.) Have you ever eaten British (non-streaky) bacon? It is so foreign to American experience that I thought the hyperbole justified -- only as a tongue-in-cheek (BrE ironic) rhetorical flourish, of course, not meant seriously or literally. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>> There's a pretty good explanation of un-American bacons at >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Have you ever eaten British (non-streaky) bacon? No. > ......It is so foreign to > American experience that I thought the hyperbole justified -- only as > a tongue-in-cheek (BrE ironic) rhetorical flourish, of course, not > meant seriously or literally. Ah. I rather thought there was a reason for your word choice. SignatureMaria >> Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > [..] [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Back bacon is what Prof. S. calls "Canadian bacon". I wonder if any others have enjoyed what our family called "side pork": the same cut as "American" bacon, but without the smoke and much of the salt. I haven't seen it in years. We also enjoyed my Dad's favorite breakfast food: "doughgads": fried bread dough. Mom was a baker, and when she made white bread, she'd keep out a portion of dough for frying. SignatureFrank ess >Buckwheat Soba <me@privacy.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >US bacon has had all the flavour fried out of it (if it every had >any), except for salt. It tastes to me like crispy salt sticks. Umm...salt sticks. SignatureCharles Riggs >> I no longer fry >> bacon at home - it's always grilled (broiled), but then US [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Now Canadian bacon, that's not bacon. That's much closer to ham. And, as with Irish bacon, wholly unsatisfactory in a BLT, that probably being the reason BLTs are never, to my knowledge, on Irish menus. SignatureCharles Riggs >Speaking of which, in the _Rumpole_ books Rumpole sometimes eats a >revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a >slice of bread fried in lard or something? (HIATB?) Fried in dripping, ideally. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>Speaking of which, in the _Rumpole_ books Rumpole sometimes eats a >>revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a >>slice of bread fried in lard or something? (HIATB?) > >Fried in dripping, ideally. The frying pan in a good greasy spoon caff will usually contain the residue from frying much bacon, many sausages and dozens of eggs, possibly over a period of days. It is this ever changing mixture of flavours that gives the fried slice its allure. Mike 'come over all peckish' Page >>>Speaking of which, in the _Rumpole_ books Rumpole sometimes eats a >>>revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >eggs, possibly over a period of days. It is this ever changing >mixture of flavours that gives the fried slice its allure. A greasy spoon doesn't normally use frying pans; they have a big, um, whatever that huge hot metal stove is called. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > >>>Speaking of which, in the _Rumpole_ books Rumpole sometimes eats a > >>>revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > A greasy spoon doesn't normally use frying pans; they have a big, > um, whatever that huge hot metal stove is called. griddle SignatureJ. >> >>>Speaking of which, in the _Rumpole_ books Rumpole sometimes eats a >> >>>revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >griddle I knew that. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>Speaking of which, in the _Rumpole_ books Rumpole sometimes eats a >>>>revolting-sounding breakfast food called "fried slice". What is that, a [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >A greasy spoon doesn't normally use frying pans; they have a big, >um, whatever that huge hot metal stove is called. I said a 'good' greasy spoon, where they still do things properly. I can't see how you could do a fried slice that Rumpole would countenance on a griddle with, ugh, cooking oil. Mike 'come over all peckish' Page >I said a 'good' greasy spoon, where they still do things >properly. ...which would be one where the griddle hasn't seen a molecule of soap in at least 50 years. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness Garrett Wollman <wollman@csail.mit.edu> had it: > >I said a 'good' greasy spoon, where they still do things > >properly. > > ...which would be one where the griddle hasn't seen a molecule of soap > in at least 50 years. I have cast iron pans and skillets which haven't seen a molecule of soap for 30 years. I wash them thoroughly with very hot water, but never allow detergent near them, as it destroys their natural non- stickiness. SignatureDavid ===== >Garrett Wollman <wollman@csail.mit.edu> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >never allow detergent near them, as it destroys their natural non- >stickiness. True, but I do sometimes scour them with a paper towel or even a bristle brush, if necessary, using salt and a little water, rinse them with clear water and then quickly dry them on the hob. SignatureCharles Riggs >On 31 Oct 2006, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >(Would you say, though, that "cereal" does or doesn't include >"porridge"?) I'd say "cereal" in a breakfast context only includes porridge to the extent that it also includes toast, popcorn and tortilla chips. SignatureRoss Howard >>On 31 Oct 2006, LFS wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I'd say "cereal" in a breakfast context only includes porridge to the > extent that it also includes toast, popcorn and tortilla chips. For a moment there I thought you meant that you eat popcorn and tortilla chips for breakfast. That would have given you entry to my list of people I should least like to eat breakfast with. I seem to remember that I would like to have breakfast with Tony but I can't for the life of me remember why. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >For a moment there I thought you meant that you eat popcorn and tortilla >chips for breakfast. That would have given you entry to my list of >people I should least like to eat breakfast with. I seem to remember >that I would like to have breakfast with Tony but I can't for the life >of me remember why. I dunno, Laura. How do you feel about eating breakfast with someone who orders biscuits and (sausage) gravy? Not that I order that all or most of the time, but I do like biscuits and gravy. Enjoyable when eaten, but the dish tends to form a lump in the stomach (or wherever it is that food ingested resides for the first few hours). Waffles with two eggs, over light, link sausage on the side, is another breakfast choice for me. Eggs Benedict, though, is my all-time favorite breakfast. Mind you, these are all items ordered in restaurants and not served to me at home. At home, my wife's morning efforts in my behalf are limited to saying "There are frozen waffles in fridge and cereal in the pantry. Make what you want." She does make exceptions when we have guests. If I have a desire for, say, grilled grapefruit with brown sugar, I have to convince one of the kids to come over for Sunday breakfast. The kids have been out and away long enough that they are now considered "guests" meal-wise. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > I seem to remember > that I would like to have breakfast with Tony but I can't for the life > of me remember why. It's so that you can watch him try to avoid lighting the end of his nose. SignatureDavid ===== >LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >It's so that you can watch him try to avoid lighting the end of his >nose. That nose of his or not, would Tony light up during a meal? SignatureCharles Riggs Charles Riggs <chriggs@éircom.net> had it: > >LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That nose of his or not, would Tony light up during a meal? Ah, perhaps not. SignatureDavid ===== >> I'd say "cereal" in a breakfast context only includes porridge to the >> extent that it also includes toast, popcorn and tortilla chips. > > For a moment there I thought you meant that you eat popcorn and > tortilla chips for breakfast. I'm still not sure what he means, though I suppose it's that he doesn't include porridge in the "cereal" category. (Must "cereal" be cold and crunchy to some degree?) > ......That would have given you entry to my > list of people I should least like to eat breakfast with. I seem to > remember that I would like to have breakfast with Tony but I can't > for the life of me remember why. I'd like to have breakfast with him, too, I think. He likes biscuits and gravy and other foods that I like, so he wouldn't be making fun of me. The grilled grapefruit with brown sugar, though, wouldn't be my choice. BTW, Brian always orders Eggs Benedict when we have breakfast out. And I think he'd love the grapefruit dish. He and Tony would get along fine. SignatureMaria >>> I'd say "cereal" in a breakfast context only includes porridge to the >>> extent that it also includes toast, popcorn and tortilla chips. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >include porridge in the "cereal" category. (Must "cereal" be cold and >crunchy to some degree?) I just meant that since popcorn and tortilla chips aren't classified as "cereals", I don't really see why porridge should be either. (It was a poorly written sentence, I agree, in which "breakfast" only served to mislead.) SignatureRoss Howard >> On 31 Oct 2006, Charles Riggs wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >Yuck, soggy! ISTR WIWAL cornflakes with hot milk was a special 'treat' for breakfast when one was ill. I quite liked it. Mike 'just on my lunch break' Page >>> On 31 Oct 2006, Charles Riggs wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >>Yuck, soggy! I agree -- a tad crunchy is best. >ISTR WIWAL cornflakes with hot milk was a special 'treat' for >breakfast when one was ill. I quite liked it. > >Mike 'just on my lunch break' Page SignatureCharles Riggs > To me, porridge is oats, not cereal, and "cereal" refers only to > stuff like cornflakes. > > If you asked me for "hot cereal", I would have guessed you meant > something like cornflakes with hot milk. Cheerios are oats, and Quaker Oats are oats, but one is cold and one is hot. They are both sold in the "CEREAL" aisle of the grocery store. Oats, corn, rice, and wheat are cereal. If you have them for breakfast, they are breakfast cereal. From there, you can have cold cereal or hot cereal. It's just a matter of categories within categories; a question similar to whether a hamburger is a sandwich*. Stefano * And, of course, it is. On 31 Oct 2006, Steve MacGregor wrote >> To me, porridge is oats, not cereal, and "cereal" refers only >> to stuff like cornflakes. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > breakfast, they are breakfast cereal. From there, you can have > cold cereal or hot cereal. Ummm....I guess the "to me" wasn't sufficiently highlighted; we're talking personal idiomatic usage here. I'm fully aware that oats are a cereal grain, and without meaning to be overly dismissive, the labels "the" grocery store (whichever and wherever that may be) uses for its aisles has not a lot to do with my idiomatic usage. I don't think that the "breakfast food known as porridge" is generally called "not cereal" in the UK (or in Ireland, where Charles ran up against the issue) -- and informing me of the (fairly obvious) derivation of that term in your usage isn't going to convince me that it's part of my vocabulary. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van On 31 Oct 2006, HVS wrote > I don't think that the "breakfast food known as porridge" is > generally called "not cereal" Sorry; "hot cereal". SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > It's just a matter of categories within categories; a question similar > to whether a hamburger is a sandwich*. > > Stefano > * And, of course, it is. Not to start going on about this again, but.... A hamburger may be in "sandwich form" (meat/whatever topped and bottomed by some form of bread) but to me, it's not a "sandwich" -- it's a hamburger. Calling it a "sandwich" is somewhat like calling a banana split "some ice cream." Assigning a concoction to a simple name group does it an injustice. Think how one's mind can react to the offer of a "sandwich" vs the offer of a "hamburger." The first is too generic, and can sound very boring; the second whets your appetite (unless, of course, you are a dedicated, full-fledged vegetarian). SignatureMaria http://www.familyhomefront.net/ AUE: http://www.familyhomefront.net/BirthdaysEtcAUE.html OR: http://tinyurl.com/j4j8n (needs updating, btw) There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. > A hamburger may be in "sandwich form" (meat/whatever topped and bottomed > by some form of bread) but to me, it's not a "sandwich" -- it's a > hamburger. Calling it a "sandwich" is somewhat like calling a banana > split "some ice cream." I'd say it's even further removed from sandwichness than banana splits are from ice creamness. Everyone thinks of a banana split as *involving* ice cream (if they know what a banana split is at all -- the banana split has been endangered for decades). But no one in their right mind thinks of a hamburger as a sandwich. Coop may claim that he does do, but some simple tests will demonstrate that he is not right. > Assigning a concoction to a simple name group does it an injustice. > Think how one's mind can react to the offer of a "sandwich" vs the offer > of a "hamburger." The first is too generic, and can sound very boring; > the second whets your appetite (unless, of course, you are a dedicated, > full-fledged vegetarian). That may well be, though I'm not sure I'd make such a statement. I note again that here in Manhattan it's common to see street vendor umbrellas that say "HOT DOGS - HOT SAUSAGE", advertising two distinct products. SignatureBuckwheat Soba > That may well be, though I'm not sure I'd make such a statement. I > note again that here in Manhattan it's common to see street vendor > umbrellas that say "HOT DOGS - HOT SAUSAGE", advertising two > distinct products. I'd say that that falls in the same category as the corner store that used to be around here[1] whose awning read BEER / FOOD / SANDWICHES / HOT DOGS [1] Since the last time I mentioned it, in May, the building they were in had a serious fire. I don't think they've reopened. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |It's not coherent, it's merely 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |focused. Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Keith Moore kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >I'd say it's even further removed from sandwichness than banana splits are >from ice creamness. Everyone thinks of a banana split as *involving* ice >cream (if they know what a banana split is at all -- the banana split has >been endangered for decades). But no one in their right mind thinks of a >hamburger as a sandwich. Coop may claim that he does do, but some simple >tests will demonstrate that he is not right. I wish I knew myself as well as you purport to know me. I think that hamburgers are in the wide classification of sandwiches, but not in the specific classification of sandwiches. "Let's go out for a sandwich" could be a suggestion that ends up with as an order for a hamburger. A wife who says "Do you want a sandwich?" isn't precluding a hamburger as an option. The sandwich section of a menu might include hamburgers. However, "I packed you a sandwich for lunch" certainly wouldn't mean "There's a hamburger in your lunch-box". "Get some sandwich meat at the store" doesn't mean bring home some ground chuck. I'd say that "sandwich" means something between two pieces of bread, but cooked hamburger meat isn't a sandwich even if it's served between two slices of bread. ("Bun" isn't the designator since something like egg salad served between two halves of a bun is still a sandwich) Your position, though, seems to be stricter than mine. I think you would think that "I had a sandwich for lunch" could not possibility mean "I had a hamburger for lunch". I would accept a hamburger as a sandwich in that context. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > "Let's go out for a sandwich" could be a suggestion that ends up with > as an order for a hamburger. Sure, but it could also end up as an order for a salad or a bowl of soup. > A wife who says "Do you want a sandwich?" isn't precluding a hamburger > as an option. I disagree. I'd assume that a wife that said that was so precluding. Mrs. Coop may not be such a wife, true. > The sandwich section of a menu might include hamburgers. If put together by non-native speakers, perhaps. > However, "I packed you a sandwich for lunch" certainly wouldn't mean > "There's a hamburger in your lunch-box". "Get some sandwich meat at > the store" doesn't mean bring home some ground chuck. I've never heard of "sandwich meat" (regionalism?), BITYP. > I'd say that "sandwich" means something between two pieces of bread, > but cooked hamburger meat isn't a sandwich even if it's served between > two slices of bread. So you agree with me. > ("Bun" isn't the designator since something like > egg salad served between two halves of a bun is still a sandwich) Agreed. > Your position, though, seems to be stricter than mine. I think you > would think that "I had a sandwich for lunch" could not possibility > mean "I had a hamburger for lunch". Indeed. > I would accept a hamburger as a sandwich in that context. So we do disagree, Coop, though our views are not as far apart as one might suppose. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >> However, "I packed you a sandwich for lunch" certainly wouldn't mean >> "There's a hamburger in your lunch-box". "Get some sandwich meat at >> the store" doesn't mean bring home some ground chuck. > >I've never heard of "sandwich meat" (regionalism?), BITYP. You probably know it as "lunch meat", but I'm the one who is strict on this. I think of "lunch meat" as a processed product like bologna. Sliced turkey or ham is "sandwich meat". SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >>> However, "I packed you a sandwich for lunch" certainly wouldn't mean >>> "There's a hamburger in your lunch-box". "Get some sandwich meat at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > this. I think of "lunch meat" as a processed product like bologna. > Sliced turkey or ham is "sandwich meat". The closest I'd come to not calling the stuff you're talking about "lunchmeat" is, maybe, calling something that was not pre-packaged or already sliced "lunchmeat from the deli." (That sentence could be improved upon, yes? Anyone who wishes to may do so.) Most pre-packaged lunchmeat is "lunchmeat." I'd make exceptions for unsliced liverwurst or braunschweiger (and similar things). And notice that (for me) "lunch meat" is one word -- "lunchmeat." We are not even close to being OT, even if food *were* OT. SignatureMaria There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. >The closest I'd come to not calling the stuff you're talking about >"lunchmeat" is, maybe, calling something that was not pre-packaged or >already sliced "lunchmeat from the deli." (That sentence could be >improved upon, yes? Anyone who wishes to may do so.) The stuff you both seem to be talking about would, in my idiolect, be called "deli meat" if I were desperate for a generic term for it, or "sliced ham", "sliced turkey", "roast beef", etc., otherwise. Maybe "meat from the deli" would work as well. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>>> However, "I packed you a sandwich for lunch" certainly wouldn't mean >>>> "There's a hamburger in your lunch-box". "Get some sandwich meat at [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >unsliced liverwurst or braunschweiger (and similar things). And notice >that (for me) "lunch meat" is one word -- "lunchmeat." Funny thing is that I had a braunschweiger sandwich for lunch. My wife bought a tube (can't think of a better way to describe it) of braunschweiger Sunday for the first time in something like a year. Kahn's "Bavarian" Braunschweiger. I guess sliced turkey and sliced ham is available pre-packaged, but I've only seen the deli-sliced in our fridge. >We are not even close to being OT, even if food *were* OT. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Tony Cooper filted: >Funny thing is that I had a braunschweiger sandwich for lunch. My >wife bought a tube (can't think of a better way to describe it) of >braunschweiger Sunday for the first time in something like a year. >Kahn's "Bavarian" Braunschweiger. I believe the industry term for the container is a "chub"...that's how they list the identically-shaped packages of ground beef at the warehouse clubs....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. The Maria entity posted thusly: >>>> However, "I packed you a sandwich for lunch" certainly wouldn't mean >>>> "There's a hamburger in your lunch-box". "Get some sandwich meat at [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >We are not even close to being OT, even if food *were* OT. Oh! It's cold cuts you are talking about. > The Maria entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Oh! It's cold cuts you are talking about. I'd forgotten that term -- it seems to have gone out of fashion hereabouts over the years. But now that you've mentioned it, I do remember people using the term during the 1950s and maybe on into the early 1970s. But "cold cuts" wasn't used in my own family. We said "lunchmeat." "Cold cuts" seemed like fancy talk. And anyone who called it "luncheon meat" was clearly a hoity-toity outsider. (Jeez. It suddenly dawns on me that we must have lived on the wrong side of the tracks...) SignatureMaria >But "cold cuts" wasn't used in my own family. We said "lunchmeat." "Cold >cuts" seemed like fancy talk. And anyone who called it "luncheon meat" >was clearly a hoity-toity outsider. (Jeez. It suddenly dawns on me that >we must have lived on the wrong side of the tracks...) Now to me (origin NW England) "luncheon meat" is "Pork Luncheon Meat" in cans - something vaguely related to spam. I've heard "cold cuts" but it's never been part of my working vocabulary and I'd expect it to mean the cold meat part of a cold meat and vegetables meal. "Lunchmeat" I can't remember coming across before this thread. I don't seem to have a word for "sliced meat for making sandwiches out of" - although I regularly buy it both sliced to order and pre-packed. If I was writing it on a shopping list, I'd just put "sliced meat for sandwiches" or "cold meat". SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon > > Oh! It's cold cuts you are talking about. > > I'd forgotten that term -- it seems to have gone out of fashion > hereabouts over the years. But now that you've mentioned it, I do > remember people using the term during the 1950s and maybe on into the > early 1970s. I have "cold cuts" on the shopping list right now. I'll go to the store later today and see what looks good: pastrami, probably, but maybe ham or roast beef. (Turkey also could be a cold cut, but I doubt I'll get any.) SignatureSML > I have "cold cuts" on the shopping list right now. I'll go to the store > later today and see what looks good: pastrami, probably, but maybe ham > or roast beef. (Turkey also could be a cold cut, but I doubt I'll get > any.) I'm actually not sure that pastrami should be considered a cold cut. Isn't it always eaten hot? SignatureBuckwheat Soba > I'm actually not sure that pastrami should be considered a cold > cut. Isn't it always eaten hot? Of course not. If it was, there wouldn't be any reason for the phrase "hot pastrami sandwich". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The skinny models whose main job is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to display clothes aren't hired for Palo Alto, CA 94304 |their sex appeal. They're hired |for their resemblance to a kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |coat-hanger. (650)857-7572 | Peter Moylan http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> I have "cold cuts" on the shopping list right now. I'll go to the >> store later today and see what looks good: pastrami, probably, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm actually not sure that pastrami should be considered a cold cut. > Isn't it always eaten hot? We happen to have some thin-sliced pastrami that I have been using on my breakfast sandwiches. Works fine that way. With cheese. It might be better hot, though. I'll check that out tomorrow. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > We happen to have some thin-sliced pastrami that I have been using on my > breakfast sandwiches. Works fine that way. With cheese. Oy! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> We happen to have some thin-sliced pastrami that I have been using >> on my breakfast sandwiches. Works fine that way. With cheese. > > Oy! What? I eat anything. Almost. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ >>> We happen to have some thin-sliced pastrami that I have been using >>> on my breakfast sandwiches. Works fine that way. With cheese. >> >> Oy! > > What? I eat anything. Almost. Evidently! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Buckwheat Soba filted: >I'm actually not sure that pastrami should be considered a cold cut. Isn't >it always eaten hot? Would that we lived in such a world, but no, it is not always thus....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > > I have "cold cuts" on the shopping list right now. I'll go to the store > > later today and see what looks good: pastrami, probably, but maybe ham [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm actually not sure that pastrami should be considered a cold cut. Isn't > it always eaten hot? Not in my kitchen, no. I just put it on bread with mayo, a bit of horseradish if I'm in the mood, and there it is. Yes, I eat pastrami with mayo. Wanna make something out of it? SignatureSML >> > I have "cold cuts" on the shopping list right now. I'll go to the store >> > later today and see what looks good: pastrami, probably, but maybe ham [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Yes, I eat pastrami with mayo. Wanna make something out of it? Yes; a sandwich. SignatureRay UK Sara Lorimer filted: >> I'm actually not sure that pastrami should be considered a cold cut. Isn't >> it always eaten hot? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Yes, I eat pastrami with mayo. Wanna make something out of it? No, just don't bring up the subject again, please....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >> > I have "cold cuts" on the shopping list right now. I'll go to the store >> > later today and see what looks good: pastrami, probably, but maybe ham [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Yes, I eat pastrami with mayo. Wanna make something out of it? Is it supermarket white bread? It really needs to be white bread for the proper pastrami with mayo experience, preferably served accompanied with a glass of milk. Just bear in mind that Spinoza was excommunicated for less. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > Yes, I eat pastrami with mayo. Wanna make something out of it? > > Is it supermarket white bread? It really needs to be white bread for the > proper pastrami with mayo experience, preferably served accompanied with a > glass of milk. Usually supermarket or homemade whole wheat, but occasionally homemade white. > Just bear in mind that Spinoza was excommunicated for less. My church is not dogmatic on the issue of sandwiches. SignatureSML >> > Yes, I eat pastrami with mayo. Wanna make something out of it? >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > My church is not dogmatic on the issue of sandwiches. Neither was his. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> Just bear in mind that Spinoza was excommunicated for less. > > > > My church is not dogmatic on the issue of sandwiches. > > Neither was his. You sure about that? SignatureSML >>> However, "I packed you a sandwich for lunch" certainly wouldn't mean >>> "There's a hamburger in your lunch-box". "Get some sandwich meat at [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > this. I think of "lunch meat" as a processed product like bologna. > Sliced turkey or ham is "sandwich meat". To me, the term is "cold cuts"; that includes the highly-processed stuff sold in packages (Oscar Mayer, e.g.) as well as the non-processed sliced cold cuts that Oscar Mayer is imitating. (Depending on what you mean by 'processed', bologna may or may not be processed. One could, of old, get sliced bologna from a butcher [= BrE "butcher's] or equivalent location in a supermarket, differing significantly from Oscar Mayer-type b-o-l-o-g-n-a. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >>I'd say it's even further removed from sandwichness than banana splits are >>from ice creamness. Everyone thinks of a banana split as *involving* ice [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >mean "I had a hamburger for lunch". I would accept a hamburger as a >sandwich in that context. According to _McDonald's Restaurant_ (What is a restaurant?), a hamburger is a sandwich. SignatureCharles Riggs > According to _McDonald's Restaurant_ (What is a restaurant?), a > hamburger is a sandwich. But note that McDonald's calls their restaurants "stores" (IIRC). I am speaking to a graduate of Hamburger University (then Hamburger College?), so you would know more than I. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >> According to _McDonald's Restaurant_ (What is a restaurant?), a >> hamburger is a sandwich. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >I am speaking to a graduate of Hamburger University (then Hamburger >College?), so you would know more than I. Perhaps so. For those unaware of my lurid past in between serious studies, I majored in the art of Window Man at the Chicago college. My subspeciality, on the job, had been Milk shake Man. I needed no additional training in it for I was the fastest known, at least by the Third Man, the person with the most years on the job at the McLean, Virginia unit. In those days, women didn't work for McDonald's. If one should apply, and was hired, she'd be asked to carry up a 100 pound bag of potatoes from the basement. If she could do that, a ready-made excuse for firing her was always that there were no changing facilities in the units for women, and that none were planned. Who'd heard of PC back then? SignatureCharles Riggs >> It's just a matter of categories within categories; a question >> similar to whether a hamburger is a sandwich*. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > boring; the second whets your appetite (unless, of course, you are a > dedicated, full-fledged vegetarian). One of the few ways I can be persuaded to eat "hamburger meat" is when it is served as center piece in a "hamburger sandwich" topped and bottomed by toasted whole wheat bread. It takes a fraction of a second to determine such a thing is not a "hamburger", but a sandwich; the not-a-bun bread is a dead giveaway. I have seen "whole wheat" hamburger buns, but they aren't, really; some kind of dyed, listless white bread, I think. SignatureFrank ess > I have seen "whole wheat" hamburger buns, but they aren't, really; > some kind of dyed, listless white bread, I think. If they are labelled whole wheat, they are whole wheat -- and usually by a speciallty baker. You are thinking of "wheat buns" which, like "wheat bread", are a brown version of the balloon bread formerly known as "white bread" -- possibly through the use of a smidgen of molasses. /dps >> To me, porridge is oats, not cereal, and "cereal" refers only to >> stuff like cornflakes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Cheerios are oats, and Quaker Oats are oats, but one is cold and one is >hot. They are both sold in the "CEREAL" aisle of the grocery store. Yabbut so is muesli, which may be very cereal-like in how it's used (dump it in a bowl, pile sugar and milk on top and off you go) but I wouldn't class it as a canonical "breakfast cereal" any more than porridge. "Cereal" proper has to be at least vaguely identifiable as being derivatives of the Kellogg's range, I reckon, rather than something that was a breakfast staple in Switzerland or Scotland a long time before Battle Creek was even a twinkle in Hannibal Lecter's eye. SignatureRoss Howard >>Cheerios are oats, and Quaker Oats are oats, but one is cold and one is >>hot. They are both sold in the "CEREAL" aisle of the grocery store. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > long time before Battle Creek was even a twinkle in Hannibal Lecter's > eye. My sources (Google is my friend) tell me that museli was invented in 1900, while the patent for corn flakes, the very foundation of the Battle Creek juggernaut[1], was issued in 1896. [1] ObUsage: Can juggernauts have foundations? "The very chassis of the Battle Creek juggernaut"??? -- not likely! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >My sources (Google is my friend) tell me that museli was invented in 1900, >while the patent for corn flakes, the very foundation of the Battle Creek >juggernaut[1], was issued in 1896. > >[1] ObUsage: Can juggernauts have foundations? "The very chassis of the >Battle Creek juggernaut"??? -- not likely! "Juggernaut Foundation" would be a great name for a rock band...heavy metal stuff, I'd imagine...("Battle Creek Juggernaut Foundation", in contrast, sounds like it should be some kind of folk group)....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > metal stuff, I'd imagine...("Battle Creek Juggernaut Foundation", in > contrast, sounds like it should be some kind of folk group)....r Or a funding body. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >>>Cheerios are oats, and Quaker Oats are oats, but one is cold and one is >>>hot. They are both sold in the "CEREAL" aisle of the grocery store. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >while the patent for corn flakes, the very foundation of the Battle Creek >juggernaut[1], was issued in 1896. Some UKian intellectual will tell if I'm wrong, but I think I half-heard a question on University Challenge this week asking the name of the cereal that was invented in about 1870/80, with a name derived from something-or-other with a Swiss connexion; the answer was muesli. Lord Paxo, the Sage of Stuffing, can't have been primed with a wrong answer, can he? >[1] ObUsage: Can juggernauts have foundations? "The very chassis of the >Battle Creek juggernaut"??? -- not likely! Women can wear foundations, and some are juggernauts in the Woosterian aunt sense of the word. Masto-wotsits. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > On 31 Oct 2006, Charles Riggs wrote > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > To me, porridge is oats, not cereal, and "cereal" refers only to > stuff like cornflakes. I'm not really sure what "porridge" is -- it's some mediaeval foodstuff that appears in _Goldilocks and the Three Bears_. I do know that it *can* be found by that name in some US establishments, but I've never been inclined to order it. Does it mean the same thing as one of the default AmE meanings of "oatmeal"? > If you asked me for "hot cereal", I would have guessed you meant > something like cornflakes with hot milk. Last time I was in the UK, the only cold cereal they had was that Alpen Mueslix stuff, but that was a long time ago. SignatureBuckwheat Soba > I'm not really sure what "porridge" is -- it's some mediaeval foodstuff > that appears in _Goldilocks and the Three Bears_. I do know that it *can* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does it mean the same thing as one of the default AmE meanings of > "oatmeal"? Yup. >> If you asked me for "hot cereal", I would have guessed you meant >> something like cornflakes with hot milk. > > Last time I was in the UK, the only cold cereal they had was that Alpen > Mueslix stuff, but that was a long time ago. 'Twas, evidently. Mueslix, by the way, is somebody's (Kellogg's's?) brand name for a product, engineered to appeal to eaters of American-style cold breakfast cereal; "not quite but almost entirely unlike muesli" would be a fair description. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. Roland Hutchinson filted: >Mueslix, by the way, is somebody's (Kellogg's's?) brand name for a product, >engineered to appeal to eaters of American-style cold breakfast cereal; >"not quite but almost entirely unlike muesli" would be a fair description. And a badly-engineered name at that, resembling (as it does) "mucilage"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And a badly-engineered name at that, resembling (as it does) > "mucilage"....r So does the taste of the product. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. The R H Draney entity posted thusly: >Roland Hutchinson filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >And a badly-engineered name at that, resembling (as it does) "mucilage"....r Fitting, since it tastes only slightly better than mucilage. > The R H Draney entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Fitting, since it tastes only slightly better than mucilage. Adding insult to injury, it was introduced with a TV ad campaign featuring dirndl- and lederhosen-clad actors pretending to be skeptical about the product, but not, as you might think, because they found it inedible: rather, they doubted that American would eat the "too European" cereal. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >I'm not really sure what "porridge" is -- it's some mediaeval foodstuff >that appears in _Goldilocks and the Three Bears_. I do know that it *can* [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Does it mean the same thing as one of the default AmE meanings of >"oatmeal"? What most of us in the UK call porridge is made either with rolled oats (AmE = Quaker oats) cooked in water &/or milk for a short time, or with (BrE) oatmeal, which comes in several grades (eg medium, pinhead) and is cooked for at least an hour, and ideally overnight in a haybox. Neither of these would be called "hot cereal" in the UK. In fact, for most UKians "hot cereal" would be an oxymoron. >Last time I was in the UK, the only cold cereal they had was that Alpen >Mueslix stuff, but that was a long time ago. You were in the UK before the arrival of cornflakes, Rice Krispies or Weetabix? SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>I'm not really sure what "porridge" is -- it's some mediaeval foodstuff >>that appears in _Goldilocks and the Three Bears_. I do know that it *can* [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > You were in the UK before the arrival of cornflakes, Rice Krispies or > Weetabix? "Before the motor car, before the wheel, before the duchess-faced horse..." I am shocked -- shocked, I tell you -- to learn that Weetabix has only been around since 1936. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. The Wood Avens entity posted thusly: >>I'm not really sure what "porridge" is -- it's some mediaeval foodstuff >>that appears in _Goldilocks and the Three Bears_. I do know that it *can* [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >What most of us in the UK call porridge is made either with rolled >oats (AmE = Quaker oats) "Quaker Oats" is a brand name for rolled oats, no? > The Wood Avens entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > "Quaker Oats" is a brand name for rolled oats, no? Yup. Once upon a time Quaker Oats came just in "Old Fashioned" (5 min) and "Quick" (1 min) varieties. Then came instant (add boiling water and stir). The mindboggling panoply of present-day oaty Quakerdom can be viewed here: http://www.quakeroats.com/qfb_OurBrands/BrandDetail.cfm?BrandID=5 SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Speaking of breakfasts, I ordered hot cereal the other morning, and > the girl didn't know what I meant. Must I say porridge to be > understood? Yes, or the brand-name "Ready-Brek" (sold as flakes which are intended to be mixed with hot milk), though you could also ask for some other brand-name cereal usually served with cold milk "with hot milk". Matthew Huntbach > Speaking of breakfasts, I ordered hot cereal the other morning, and > the girl didn't know what I meant. Must I say porridge to be > understood? Not if you come here[1] to breakfast. If you want "hot cereal," you'd probably have to ask for "oatmeal" (plain or flavored, say, "strawberries 'n' cream"[2] oatmeal) or for "cream of wheat," or "grits" or some such). [1] To my house or to my part of Michigan or Tennessee. "Porridge" would mean nothing to a lot of folks in the US. They'd think you want "gruel," whatever the heck that is. [2] Anything so named -- "something <'n'> something else" -- is never on my grocery list. It's just to cutesy and folksy for any grown person to consider. If the maker can't use <and>[3] in place of <'n'>[4], then I want nothing to do with it. [3] Some makers of hot cereal packets do, indeed, use <and>. They are the ones who would get my money. (Cereal packets: just add hot water and stir.) [4] Sometimes there's just one apostrophe: <'n>. Or is it <n'>? Probably the first. One would think <'n> would mean "in," but no -- it means "and." Or so I think, but it must depend on who's saying it, eh? SignatureMaria http://www.familyhomefront.net/ There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. > (Cereal packets: just add hot water and > stir.) You forgot "...eat, fall into diabetic coma." (Hmmm -- that's a common phrase around my household when discussing something that's too sweet, but is it in poor taste when talking to someone who really does have diabetes?) SignatureSML >> (Cereal packets: just add hot water and >> stir.) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > but is it in poor taste when talking to someone who really does have > diabetes?) Didn't bother me: I laughed. SignatureMaria, diabetic. >> http://smi-web.stanford.edu/people/dugan/stanford-seal.gif >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > <*> Note to British readers: in California, 1891 is a long time ago. Not only is Stanford older than dirt by California standards, it's also older than the vast majority of UK universities. Not Stanfordites are snobs, or anything... SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. [snip] > Of course, none of that explains why "tiger". One of the OED quotes > implies that an 1859 dictionary thought that the Boston "Tigers" may [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the inseparable demonstrations of approbation in that city > [New York]. [snip] > Origin of the "Tiger" Shout.--An exchange thus gives the origin of > the outburst of human articulation, a cross between a clap of [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Infantry, Captain C.O. Rogers, is not more than a mile distant. > [_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 11/28/1857] [snip] I was in China when your posting was made. Belatedly, I congratulate you for great researching -- getting anything out of the Brooklyn newspaper archive you cite is extremely difficult, yet once again you display an astonishing mastery. [This past July 18 you posted: [excerpt] > If talking will do any good and will bring us Flatbushers any > better service, just let an old reader of your esteemed paper put [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the service that Mr. Rossiter is giving to this fine old town. > [_Brooklyn Daily Eagle_, 8/28/1899] [That bit of researching took the "opinion" sense of "two cents" back to the 19th century, which became a quest of AUE when Mark Israel opined an origin before 1900, without any citations, and no one else could support such.] Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego |
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