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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Southern France
The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in "Southern France" (capitalized thusly). I have often heard of the South of France, but I have never heard of Southern France and I am surprised that such a place exists. It sounds weird. Like "East Virginia." If there actually is such a place, I would like to know to what extent, if any, Southern France and the South of France are coextensive. > The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in > "Southern France" (capitalized thusly). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If there actually is such a place, I would like to know to what extent, if > any, Southern France and the South of France are coextensive. MW online: Etymology: Middle English southern, southren, from Old English sutherne; akin to Old High German sundrOni southern, Old English suth south 1 capitalized : of, relating to, or characteristic of a region conventionally designated South 2 a : lying toward the south b : coming from the south <a southern breeze> - south·ern·most/-"mOst/ adjective =================== In light of the above definition, I don't see any problem calling "Southern France" the region known as the South of France. OTOH, I wouldn't call the state of South Carolina "Southern Carolina", mainly because there is no state called "Carolina". About "western Virginia" I have some doubts, even though technically it's obviously the western side of Virginia, and not the state of West Virginia. > The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in > "Southern France" (capitalized thusly). "Southern" seems fine, for the reasons given in an earlier reply. Surely "thus" is an adverb already, and doesn't need a further "-ly". Regards Jonathan >Surely "thus" is an adverb already, and doesn't need a further "-ly". Correct. "thusly" is a jocular non-standard variant of "thus". Encarta: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=1 861720071 thus·ly adverb Definition: U.S. (humorous) Same as thus (sense 2)  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) The Grammer Genious wrote, in <GKy0h.229$WB4.92@trndny04> on Sat, 28 Oct 2006 01:53:42 GMT: > The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in > "Southern France" (capitalized thusly). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If there actually is such a place, I would like to know to what extent, if > any, Southern France and the South of France are coextensive. To me "The South of France" is that dreadful stretch of coast including such horrors as Cannes, Nice and Monte Carlo. I go to Southern France, which is delightful, quite often. SignatureNick Spalding "Nick Spalding" <spalding@iol.ie> wrote : >> The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in >> "Southern France" (capitalized thusly). [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > such horrors as Cannes, Nice and Monte Carlo. I go to Southern France, > which is delightful, quite often. I'm surprised you say that. I find it useful to distinguish -- and I suspect the OP does too, hence the wording of his/her post -- between lower and upper case for the directional descriptor. Hence Southern France implies a geographical, political or administrative entity and therefore does not exist, whereas southern France, of course, does. The distinction is usually made in geographical, meteorological and climatological publications ... in the UK at least. The difference between Northern Ireland and northern Scotland further illustrates the distinction. Philip Eden Philip Eden wrote, in <45434c4c$0$1381$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk> on Sat, 28 Oct 2006 13:23:47 +0100: > "Nick Spalding" <spalding@iol.ie> wrote : > > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > The difference between Northern Ireland and northern Scotland > further illustrates the distinction. You're right, that should have been southern. SignatureNick Spalding As we all stood and listened, Nick Spalding sung the following words: > To me "The South of France" is that dreadful stretch of coast > including such horrors as Cannes, Nice and Monte Carlo. I go to > Southern France, which is delightful, quite often. You go there quite often, or it's delightful quite often? Intentional phrasing for humourous effect, or inadvertent ambiguity? SignatureA. Gwilliam To e-mail me, replace "bottomless_pit" with "devnull" A. Gwilliam wrote, in <45442fab$0$627$bed64819@news.gradwell.net> on 29 Oct 2006 04:35:55 GMT: > As we all stood and listened, Nick Spalding sung the following words: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Intentional phrasing for humourous effect, or inadvertent ambiguity? Inadvertent. I go there quite often and find it delightful. SignatureNick Spalding > A. Gwilliam wrote, in <45442fab$0$627$bed64819@news.gradwell.net> > on 29 Oct 2006 04:35:55 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Inadvertent. I go there quite often and find it delightful. But it wasn't ambiguous in the first place. If you had meant that it was often delightful there would have been no comma after delightful. Regards Jonathan Nick Spalding: > To me "The South of France" is that dreadful stretch of coast > including such horrors as Cannes, Nice and Monte Carlo. Presumably this "dreadfulness" is due to the topology that allows it to include places that are in a different country than it is. SignatureMark Brader And now write us Toronto A devious quasipoem! msb@vex.net --Richard Heathfield > I have often heard of the South of France, but I have never heard of > Southern France and I am surprised that such a place exists. It sounds > weird. Like "East Virginia." To an English ear, southern France is larger than the South of France, and wholly includes it. English references to the South of France usually mean places within 75 miles or less of the Mediterranean (say south of the latitude of Orange or Avignon) but southern France may mean south of Lyons, roughly the southern half of the country. The winter holidays of the rich are the social phenomenon underlying this, common from 1815 onwards. To escape the English winter, some people would live for months in the South of France (not southern France) which meant for most only those departements with a Mediterranean sea coast. (By contrast, English invalids who for health reasons lived wholly outside England seemed to prefer Italy.) SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > > I have often heard of the South of France, but I have never heard of > > Southern France and I am surprised that such a place exists. It sounds [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > contrast, English invalids who for health reasons lived > wholly outside England seemed to prefer Italy.) You are exagerating. Sure, there is the 'Promenade des Anglais', but those rich 19th century Britons also went to Normandy, Bretagne, the Dordogne, Biaritz, etc. From 1815 is a bit optimistic though. The 'mass' migrations started with the construction of railroads and the availability of steam ferries. Jan > You are exagerating. > Sure, there is the 'Promenade des Anglais', [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with the construction of railroads > and the availability of steam ferries. I could be wrong on this, but I was under the impression the the Côte d'azur was rather despised by the French (at least by the rich Northerners) in those days, and that is was precisely the influx of rich English people that turned this rocky, arid coast into tourist resorts. I agree about Biarritz and would add Monte Carlo, and I think you are correct too about the influence of rail. However, I doubt that Normandy and Brittany, having climates not all that different from Britain, would have had the same attraction, and indeed, even today they are not renowned as resorts in quite the same way. That is to say, tourists do flock to Quimper and Mont St Michel and other places, but not the way the millionaires and their hangers-on used to go to Cannes and Menton in times gone by. It's almost a matter of history now. The very rich go to their own, more secluded spots, and even the moderately well-off seem to spend their holidays in far-flung places. SignatureRob Bannister > > You are exagerating. > > Sure, there is the 'Promenade des Anglais', [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Northerners) in those days, and that is was precisely the influx of rich > English people that turned this rocky, arid coast into tourist resorts. Status depended more on traveling time to Paris. BTW, the eastern parts of the Cote d'Azure (Nice etc) weren't even French at the time. > I agree about Biarritz and would add Monte Carlo, and I think you are > correct too about the influence of rail. However, I doubt that Normandy [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the millionaires and their hangers-on used to go to Cannes and Menton in > times gone by. I have been told that it is the ostentatious rich, media types, film producers, TV personalities, and the like tend to cluster on the Cote d'Azure. (The kind that needs to be seen to know they are somebody.) Engineers, industrialists, managers, etc., and the non-ostentatious rich tend to prefer the Atlantic coast. Just a trend no doubt. > It's almost a matter of history now. The very rich go to their own, more > secluded spots, and even the moderately well-off seem to spend their > holidays in far-flung places. Sure, drunken Brits all over the Med in summer, the BBC told me sometime ago, Jan > Status depended more on traveling time to Paris. > BTW, the eastern parts of the Cote d'Azure > (Nice etc) weren't even French at the time. True. Even today, you can still hear some people in Nice speaking the local dialect which sounds very like Italian. SignatureRob Bannister > > Status depended more on traveling time to Paris. > > BTW, the eastern parts of the Cote d'Azure > > (Nice etc) weren't even French at the time. > > True. Even today, you can still hear some people in Nice speaking the > local dialect which sounds very like Italian. The linguistic situation is complicated. There are some 'French' villages in Italy, and some 'Italian' ones in France. Drawing the border was just power politics: France was strong at the time, and Italy (in unification) was weak. So France got Nice, Jan >>>Status depended more on traveling time to Paris. >>>BTW, the eastern parts of the Cote d'Azure [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > So France got Nice, Either way, dialects don't usually follow borders, so I imagine the French on one side is like Italian, and the Italian on the other side more like French. Possibly more so with Italian: I know a lot of older "Italians" who really cannot speak Italian, but only their own village dialect. SignatureRob Bannister [ ... ] > The winter holidays of the rich are the social > phenomenon underlying this, common from 1815 > onwards. To escape the English winter, some people > would live for months in the South of France (not > southern France) which meant for most only those > departements with a Mediterranean sea coast. Not even all of those. In the period you're referring to there was still malaria in the coastal area close to Montpellier, and none of the rich would have dreamt of risking that. I would say that then (and to a considerable extent today) the "South of France" meant the strip of coast from St Tropez to the Italian border. Rich people of the 19th century would have been only barely aware that there was anything more than that -- apart from Biarritz, but to get there they'd have gone a different way, and I doubt whether they'd have thought of Biarritz as being in the South of France, even if it is further south than Nice or Cannes. athel >> I have often heard of the South of France, but I have never heard of >> Southern France and I am surprised that such a place exists. It sounds [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >contrast, English invalids who for health reasons lived >wholly outside England seemed to prefer Italy.) Data point from JS Mill's 1873 autobiography, which accompanied my lunch today: "In 1820 they invited me for a six months' visit to them in the South of France, which their kindness ultimately prolonged to nearly a twelvemonth. Sir Samuel Bentham, though of a character of mind different from that of his illustrious brother, was a man of very considerable attainments and general powers, with a decided genius for mechanical art.... When I first joined them, in May 1820, they occupied the Château of Pompignan (still belonging to a descendant of Voltaire's enemy) on the heights overlooking the plain of the Garonne between Montauban and Toulouse. I accompanied them in an excursion to the Pyrenees, including a stay of some duration at Bagnères de Bigorre, a journey to Pau, Bayonne, and Bagnères de Luchon, and an ascent of the Pic du Midi de Bigorre." Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the Med., and not in what I take to be the South of France today. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while > definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the > Med., and not in what I take to be the South of France today. I must agree with that. To my mind, the "South of France" barely includes Marseille, let alone anywhere west of there. Bordeaux and Toulouse are in southern France. I'd like to hear from Isabelle or another French person on what their concept of le Midi is. SignatureRob Bannister > > Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while > > definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Toulouse are in southern France. I'd like to hear from Isabelle or > another French person on what their concept of le Midi is. Toulouse is definitely in the Midi. In fact the region it is in is called Midi-Pyrenees, Jan > > Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while > > definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Toulouse are in southern France. I'd like to hear from Isabelle or > another French person on what their concept of le Midi is. Le Midi de la France is the area where the langue d'oc also called occitan is or was spoken, it is spread over these regions : Limousin, Auvergne, Dauphiné, Gascogne, Guyenne, Languedoc and Provence. Those are the names of the ancient regions that you can find on this map: http://www.memodoc.com/provinces_francaises.html >>>Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while >>>definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and Provence. Those are the names of the ancient regions that you > can find on this map: Thanks (and to Jan). That was pretty dumb of me. I should have known that. SignatureRob Bannister "Lanarcam" <lanarcam1@yahoo.fr> wrote : > "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> a écrit : >> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Limousin, Auvergne, Dauphiné, Gascogne, Guyenne, Languedoc > and Provence. Although le Midi (it just means "the south") has no distinct borders, I would question whether it even approximates to the regions where occitan is spoken. My mother is a Périgourdine and can still speak the local patois, and she would never in a million years describe the Périgord as le Midi. If pressed, the most appropriate broad term she'd use is "le Sud-Ouest". Philip Eden > > Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while > > definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > another French person on what their concept of le Midi is. > -- It's a fair question, and I leave it to French people to answer it, but there is a disjunction between your second and fourth sentences, because whereas "Le Midi" is certainly a phrase used by French people, the "South of France" is essentially a British term, and I agree with you that it probably doesn't include Marseilles for most people (though it does include it for me when I'm in England, as I like to claim that I live in the South of France). For the question of "Le Midi", you definitely need a French person, and not just a Francophone person, because if I have my geography straight the station "Bruxelles Midi" is north of virtually the whole of France. athel > > > Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while > > > definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > because if I have my geography straight the station "Bruxelles Midi" is > north of virtually the whole of France. The Gare de Lyon is north of Lyon too, Jan Robert Bannister a écrit : >> Now the Château de Pompignan is 25km nord of Toulouse and, while >> definitely in the south of France, is as near to Bordeaux as to the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Toulouse are in southern France. I'd like to hear from Isabelle or > another French person on what their concept of le Midi is. I'd make a difference between "le sud" and "le Midi". "Le Midi" is included in "le sud". Marseille and all points eastward, going as far as Vintimille, are definitely in "le Midi" for me. Bordeaux, Limoges and Périgueux definitely aren't, and neither are Lyon or Grenoble. I'm hazy about the status of Toulouse and Perpignan; probably not the "Midi" proper. I'll add that members of my family, when asked for their opinions, have tended to exhibit a total lack of consensus on the subject. SignatureIsabelle Cecchini Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr.invalid> had it: > Robert Bannister a écrit : > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Périgueux definitely aren't, and neither are Lyon or Grenoble. I'm hazy > about the status of Toulouse and Perpignan; probably not the "Midi" proper. My bank in Leucate (between Perpignan and Narbonne) is "CA Midi", and the local paper is Midi Libre. Not that this proves anything. SignatureDavid ===== the Omrud a écrit : > Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr.invalid> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > My bank in Leucate (between Perpignan and Narbonne) is "CA Midi", and > the local paper is Midi Libre. Not that this proves anything. Ah but it does. All right, I'll grant you that Perpignan and Narbonne are in the Midi. When you drive over to your French house, at which point do you personnally feel you are in "le Midi", and not simply south of the 45th parallel --that being a reference to an attempt at a definition, with which I don't agree, from a member of my family: anything below the 45th is "le Midi"--? SignatureIsabelle Cecchini Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr.invalid> had it: > the Omrud a écrit : > > Isabelle Cecchini <isabelle.cecchini@wanadoo.fr.invalid> had it: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > definition, with which I don't agree, from a member of my family: > anything below the 45th is "le Midi"--? I'm not sure I'm qualified to judge. We've always considered that The South (which is neither the Sud, nor Le Midi) begins once we've passed Limoges/Clermont-Ferrand/Lyon, and Le Midi probably corresponds on this route with Languedoc Roussillon, starting somewhere between Toulouse and Carcasonne. Although Albi has the feel of the Midi. SignatureDavid ===== > Ah but it does. All right, I'll grant you that Perpignan and Narbonne > are in the Midi. When you drive over to your French house, at which > point do you personnally feel you are in "le Midi", and not simply south > of the 45th parallel --that being a reference to an attempt at a > definition, with which I don't agree, from a member of my family: > anything below the 45th is "le Midi"--? There is an 'aire du 45ieme degree' sur l'autoroute du soleil to mark the transition. Jan > Robert Bannister a écrit : > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Périgueux definitely aren't, and neither are Lyon or Grenoble. I'm hazy > about the status of Toulouse and Perpignan; probably not the "Midi" proper. <www.midipyrenees.fr> should clear your haze. The region Languedoc-Roussilion (hence Perpignan) is clearly also in the Midi. Add the region Provence-Alpes-Cote d'Azur and you've had all. Map for example at: <http://www.europschool.net/francais/rubriques/decouverte/pays_part/fran ce/regions.html> It is roughly the region where the Mediterrenean influence on the climate can still be felt. Best, Jan Signature"Le seul menteur du Midi, s'il y en a un, c'est le soleil... Tout ce qu'il touche, il l'exagère !" (Tartarin de Tarascon) > Robert Bannister a écrit : >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > I'll add that members of my family, when asked for their opinions, > have tended to exhibit a total lack of consensus on the subject. They're French, Sir. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford The The Grammer Genious entity posted thusly: >The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in >"Southern France" (capitalized thusly). > >I have often heard of the South of France, but I have never heard of >Southern France and I am surprised that such a place exists. It sounds >weird. Like "East Virginia." I would say "Southern France". I lived for a few years in Northern France. When I hear "the South of France, I immediately know I am hearing a Non-Canadian or a non-American. I was going to say "a Brit", but I am unsure of whether the Aussies and Kiwis use it. >If there actually is such a place, I would like to know to what extent, if >any, Southern France and the South of France are coextensive. You say "potato". > The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in > "Southern France" (capitalized thusly). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If there actually is such a place, I would like to know to what extent, if > any, Southern France and the South of France are coextensive. It begins a bit to the south of Argenton, where there is a roadsign: 'Langue d'Oc' beside the motorway to tell you so. There is a corresponding sign when going the other way, Jan J. J. Lodder wrote, in <1hnx01f.vmzruevk1d1N@de-ster.xs4all.nl> on Sun, 29 Oct 2006 08:44:24 +0200: > > The Wikipedia item on Emma Goldman says that she spent some years in > > "Southern France" (capitalized thusly). [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > There is a corresponding sign > when going the other way, I think of the Loire as the dividing line. There is a flattening of the roof pitch which starts about there. The municipal camp site at Argenton was a regular overnight stop for us when heading to or from the ferry. It's most memorable feature was the water pressure - having a shower almost caused brain damage. SignatureNick Spalding > J. J. Lodder wrote, in <1hnx01f.vmzruevk1d1N@de-ster.xs4all.nl> > on Sun, 29 Oct 2006 08:44:24 +0200: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I think of the Loire as the dividing line. There is a flattening of the > roof pitch which starts about there. Who cares about roofs? More importantly: the cloud cover starts to break. Jan > > J. J. Lodder wrote, in <1hnx01f.vmzruevk1d1N@de-ster.xs4all.nl> > > on Sun, 29 Oct 2006 08:44:24 +0200: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > Southern France and I am surprised that such a place exists. It sounds > > > > weird. Like "East Virginia." Some people were born in East Virginia, you know. (I imagine you do know.) > > > > If there actually is such a place, I would like to know to what extent, if > > > > any, Southern France and the South of France are coextensive. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > There is a corresponding sign > > > when going the other way, Does anything happen to your tongue when you pass it? > > I think of the Loire as the dividing line. There is a flattening of the > > roof pitch which starts about there. > > Who cares about roofs? More importantly: > the cloud cover starts to break. The two facts may be related. SignatureJerry Friedman > > > J. J. Lodder wrote, in <1hnx01f.vmzruevk1d1N@de-ster.xs4all.nl> > > > on Sun, 29 Oct 2006 08:44:24 +0200: > > > > > If there actually is such a place, I would like to know to what > > > > > extent, if any, Southern France and the South of France are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Does anything happen to your tongue when you pass it? No. Just talk louder to the natives in the usual way on both sides of the line. Jan [snip] >> > > It begins a bit to the south of Argenton, >> > > where there is a roadsign: 'Langue d'Oc' [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Does anything happen to your tongue when you pass it? Like a vowel shift? [snip] Sincerely, Gene Wircheno Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices. [ ... ] > I think of the Loire as the dividing line. There is a flattening of the > roof pitch which starts about there. Here in the south people put the dividing line a lot further south than that. When we first lived here we asked people where they thought the north began, and there was general agreement that it begins at Valence. That seems to me to be about right -- in Montélimar one is clearly still in the south; by the time one starts approaching Lyon one is clearly in the north. athel |
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