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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Busy day at the mine?
Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a novel. "Busy day at the mine?" "Yes, you?" "Sat around and worried about you," Aice said. (Cop Hater, p112, Ed McBain) Context: This is an exchange of words between a detective and his wife when he returned home. Question: about "the mine". He isn't a mineworker, so this word must be used figuratively to mean "workplace". Is "mine" used such a way custamarily? >Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a novel. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >be used figuratively to mean >"workplace". Is "mine" used such a way custamarily? It's not a well-established phrase, if that's what you mean. "Busy day at the (place)?" is more established, with some workplace that has some association with the family substituted. Not an actual workplace, but a workplace that goes back to some family connection, experience, or family joke. I had a friend, growing up, whose mother used to ask his father "Busy day at the cotton field?". That confused me, a Hoosier, since there were no cotton fields in Indiana. It finally came out that the family joke was that the father was known as a slave driver by his employees.  SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Tony Cooper filted: >>"Busy day at the mine?" >>"Yes, you?" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >workplace, but a workplace that goes back to some family connection, >experience, or family joke. Maybe McBain's playing on a phrase that *is* well-established for any place of work: "the old salt mine"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > "Busy day at the mine?" It's not a standard idiom, but is easy to pick up as a metaphor for grueling labor. A lot more common is the phrase "salt mines" as a symbol of laborious, tedious work, and possibly this use derived from that phrase. >> "Busy day at the mine?" > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > from > that phrase. Once upon a Citizens Band Radio era (mid-to-late 1970s) it was part of cute trucker talk: "The Salty Mines". " ... back to the old salty mine". A variant: "Ah, well, back to the old grind ... " ; presumably descended from "Keep your nose to the grindstone", and the penchant for calling anything boring or uninteresting as "old". SignatureFrank ess > A variant: > "Ah, well, back to the old grind ... " ; presumably descended from > "Keep your nose to the grindstone", and the penchant for calling > anything boring or uninteresting as "old". Also, "the daily grind" -- a grind being anthing tediously repetitious, the daily grind being a job that one goes to every (working) day, while finding it tedious to do so. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a novel. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > be used figuratively to mean > "workplace". Is "mine" used such a way custamarily? Many times when I call a cop (in a work related issue) and he is not at his desk, the operator tells me that "he's on the streets". Not "on the field", but working the streets, like a street walker. I wonder if "on the streets" in this particular context is "custamarily". > Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a > novel. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > must be used figuratively to mean > "workplace". Is "mine" used such a way custamarily? Straight out of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves (or Dwarfs, or Vertically Challenged Staff). Common enopugh to be an established idiom in my book. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >> Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a >> novel. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Vertically Challenged Staff). Common enopugh to be an established > idiom in my book. I'd agree that we're supposed to understand that it's a gentle joke between husband and wife, and that he doesn't actually work at or own a mine. Similarly, I sometimes refer to my office as the "factory". The BrE expression "trouble up at t' mill" has a similar connotation these days. Regards Jonathan Jonathan Morton <jonathan@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> had it: > >> Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a > >> novel. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > The BrE expression "trouble up at t' mill" has a similar connotation > these days. There's also the "coal face" which is a figurative term meaning the place where the work is done. SignatureDavid ===== > Jonathan Morton <jonathan@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> had > it: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > There's also the "coal face" which is a figurative term meaning the > place where the work is done. And hence in the teaching profession 'the chalk face'. Chez Cat, our version of preference is 'busy day at the sausage factory, dear?' and, rather than 'another day another dollar': 'another day, another four pence ha'penny'. DC [ ... ] > Chez Cat, our version of preference is 'busy day at the sausage > factory, dear?' and, rather than 'another day another dollar': > > 'another day, another four pence ha'penny'. Sounds like you need a minimum wage law. SignatureBob Lieblich Another day, another USD41.20 > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sounds like you need a minimum wage law. Got one. 5.35GBP per hour, as of 1 October. DC > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Sounds like you need a minimum wage law. Fourpence a day, me lads, and very hard to work And never a pleasant look from a gruffy looking Turk His conscience it may fall and his heart it may give way Then he'll raise our wages to nine pence a day SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> 'another day, another four pence ha'penny'. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > His conscience it may fall and his heart it may give way > Then he'll raise our wages to nine pence a day Seven and a half cents doesn't buy a hell of a lot; Seven and a half cents doesn't mean a thing. But give it to me every hour, forty hours every week - That's enough for me to be living like a king! -Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom >>>> 'another day, another four pence ha'penny'. >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > But give it to me every hour, forty hours every week - > That's enough for me to be living like a king! Someone'll be along in a minute with the entire Four Yorkshiremen sketch. Philip Eden >> Jonathan Morton <jonathan@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> had >> it: [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > And hence in the teaching profession 'the chalk face'. It's not "the mine" as such but "the salt mines" to me. On reflection, I suppose this must be either an allusion to Pinocchio (in which salt mines figured as the place where boys who had turned into donkeys were sent to labor) or else a learned pun inasmuch as the salt mines are where one earns one "salary" -- a word derived from the Latin for salt. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > Jonathan Morton <jonathan@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> had > it: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > There's also the "coal face" which is a figurative term meaning the > place where the work is done. Yup "mine" here seems like an extension of that. It's also become common for sporting stars to refer to their place of endeavour as "the office". I first heard it from Nigel Mansell a couple of decades ago, referring to F1 practice as "another routine day at the office" and I've more recently heard cricketers talk about a day's play as a "day at the office". SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a >>> novel. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The BrE expression "trouble up at t' mill" has a similar connotation > these days. Similarly, "at the coalface" is used for the part of a job where you are in direct contact with things or people. I would not regard it as unusual for a teacher to use "at the coalface" to mean "in the classroom" (as opposed to being at endless, pointless meetings). One might compare a slightly different term: "at the cutting edge". SignatureRob Bannister "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote : >>> Straight out of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves (or Dwarfs, or >>> Vertically Challenged Staff). Common enopugh to be an established idiom [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > opposed to being at endless, pointless meetings). One might compare a > slightly different term: "at the cutting edge". "At the sharp end" is another one. Philip Eden > "Robert Bannister" <robban@it.net.au> wrote : >>>> Straight out of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves (or Dwarfs, or [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Philip Eden Really dire working conditions can be described as at "the bleeding edge". Cheers, Sage > Really dire working conditions can be described as at "the bleeding > edge". I've only heard that with respect to new technology (sometimes new ways of doing things). It's like "cutting edge", but more so. "Cutting edge" is stuff that's just come out. "Bleeding edge" is stuff that's not yet ready for general use. When you're on the bleeding edge, you expect things to break regularly and be somewhat cumbersome to use. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Its like grasping the difference 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |between what one usually considers Palo Alto, CA 94304 |a 'difficult' problem, and what |*is* a difficult problem. The day kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |one understands *why* counting all (650)857-7572 |the molecules in the Universe isn't |difficult...there's the leap. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | Tina Marie Holmboe Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >> Really dire working conditions can be described as at "the bleeding >> edge". [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >bleeding edge, you expect things to break regularly and be somewhat >cumbersome to use. "Bleeding edge" is a once-jocular intensifier of "leading edge", a nearly exact cognate of "vanguard" and "forefront".... When I order eggs, I employ a similar soundalike extension of standard technology to indicate that I do *not* want them cooked until the yolks have turned to chalk...I ask for them "runny-side up"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> had it: > Evan Kirshenbaum filted: > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "Bleeding edge" is a once-jocular intensifier of "leading edge", a nearly exact > cognate of "vanguard" and "forefront".... But it's not invented for that purpose - it's a printing term indicating that a photo or other graphic runs up the very edge of the paper. It "bleeds" over the edge. SignatureDavid ===== > R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> had it: > > "Bleeding edge" is a once-jocular intensifier of "leading edge", a > > nearly exact cognate of "vanguard" and "forefront".... > > But it's not invented for that purpose - it's a printing term > indicating that a photo or other graphic runs up the very edge of the > paper. It "bleeds" over the edge. I've heard that before, and it seems to me to be a coincidence. Why would anyone use an obscure printing term about photo placement when they are clearly (to me) making a play on words -- "on the leading edge of technology," "on the bleeding edge of technology"? The meaning simply doesn't relate. But I don't use "bleeding edge" in any sense, so it's not really for me to say. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >But I don't use "bleeding edge" in any sense, so it's not really for me >to say. I've never heard "bleeding edge" used as a printing or advertising term. Not that combination of words. Printers and advertisers use "bleed" to describe printing without a border, but they would say "It's a full-color bleed ad" or "We're printing a full-color bleed". "Edge" is not used. "Bleed" becomes a noun in the printing use. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it: > >> R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "It's a full-color bleed ad" or "We're printing a full-color bleed". > "Edge" is not used. I'm fairly sure I heard "bleeding edge" from honest journeymen printers in the mid 70s. In practice you create a bleeding edge by trimming the paper after it's printed. This glossary has an entry for "bleeding edge": http://www.okionline.co.uk/index.asp?&menumode=0&content=glossary#B SignatureDavid ===== Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: > > R H Draney <dadoctah@spamcop.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of technology," "on the bleeding edge of technology"? The meaning simply > doesn't relate. You may well be right, although it feels to me that the common use of "bleeding edge" predates "leading edge", which sounds like a trendy 80s term. SignatureDavid ===== >Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >"bleeding edge" predates "leading edge", which sounds like a trendy >80s term. Wouldn't "leading edge" date back to at least the development of the aircraft wing? That would predate bleed ads in printing. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it: > >Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Wouldn't "leading edge" date back to at least the development of the > aircraft wing? That would predate bleed ads in printing. That looks reasonable, but I was intending to compare the use of both terms in common speech. SignatureDavid ===== > >Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >"bleeding edge" predates "leading edge", which sounds like a trendy > >80s term. Using it in a trendy business-way is probably 80s. > Wouldn't "leading edge" date back to at least the development of the > aircraft wing? That would predate bleed ads in printing. Good call -- the earliest seven hits for "leading edge" at Google Books all relate to aircraft and aerodynamics, 1910-1920. I thought it was going to be knives, swords, and so on -- maybe oars, even -- and the phrase is used for those things now, but not, apparently, long ago. Making of America (mostly 19th century) has only two hits for "leading edge". You can see how a discussion of an underwater propeller could cause the same term to be used by aircraft manufacturers a few decades later: That radial edge of a [screw propeller] blade which first enters the water is the forward or leading edge. That which last enters is the after, following, or trailing edge. [From "Elements of machine construction and drawing," 1872.] The other hit is quite similar, from "Steam for the million," 1864. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "bleeding edge" predates "leading edge", which sounds like a trendy > 80s term. The first hit for "bleeding edge" in the _New York Times_ isn't until 1983: But the company took a nasty fall last year when a bad batch of disk drives caused computer system failures at several big corporations. "We ended up on the bleeding edge of technology, instead of the leading edge," one computer systems executive at a major bank said sarcastically. [3/21/1983] "Leading edge" is harder to date because there are so many irrelevant hits, but it was there by a 1963 ad for MITRE: You would find yourself working on the leading edge of your own field--but your work would probably require you to become familiar with the state of the art in other fields as well. [9/29/1963] "Leading-edge technology" first shows up in 1977 (perhaps in a 1972 classified ad). 1976 in the _Los Angeles Times_. "Cutting-edge technology" shows up in 1979 in the _New York Times_, 1982 in the _Los Angeles Times_. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |He who will not reason, is a bigot; 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |he who cannot is a fool; and he who Palo Alto, CA 94304 |dares not is a slave. | Sir William Drummond kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ "Bleeding edge" is a once-jocular intensifier of "leading edge", a nearly exact cognate of "vanguard" and "forefront".... Jocular by sound, but also serious. There was a time when high performance airfoils became sharp in front, and pilots and maintenance people were advised not to touch them as they would cut the skin. In Google Books, "bleeding edge" shows up at the same time, 1973 or 1974, as the figurative use of "leading edge". There is also the possibility that the figurative use came from "leading edge" in electronic signal processing. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Bleeding edge" is a once-jocular intensifier > of "leading edge", a nearly exact [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > In Google Books, "bleeding edge" shows up at the same time, 1973 or > 1974, as the figurative use of "leading edge". Given that the 1973 hit, Paul Westerman's _Data Warehousing: Using the Wal-Mart Model_, says, on the same page, "When they began building the data warehouse in 1990," either Westerman was quite prescient, or the date is wrong. Looking at the copyright page, it's 2001. I've found that Google Books dates nearly always need to be checked. The 1974 hit, from the Department of Defense _Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms_ has a page heading "As Amended Through 9 June 2004", but in any case defines "bleeding edge" as That edge of a map or chart on which cartographic detail is extended to the edge of the sheet. > There is also the possibility that the figurative use came from > "leading edge" in electronic signal processing. My money is on aircraft design. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |Bullwinkle: You sure that's the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | only way? Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Rocky: Well, if you're going to be | a hero, you've got to do kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | stupid things every once in (650)857-7572 | a while. http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ I've found that Google Books dates nearly always need to be checked. Yes, I should have added (dates unconfirmed). It promised more, but only delivered the snippet. Evan Kirshenbaum ended with: My money is on aircraft design. Mine was too, but now it is more murky. There is a good case for the razor's edge. Most of the hits for the razor seem to involve a fine line -- the razor is pressed down from directly above. Of course when used normally the razor is drawn across the skin and there is a leading edge, which can also become a bleeding edge. The bandsaw has a cutting edge. Before circa 1970 there was much more mention of a "front edge". From the Nov. 30, 1962 issue of TIME magazine, an article entitled "On The Front Edge: President Kennedy said that world affairs, in a not very resounding phrase, were entering into "a rather climactic period." Secretary of State Dean Rusk, appearing before the Foreign Policy Association in Manhattan, put it another way. "I suspect that we are," he said, "on the front edge of significant and perhaps unpredictable events, a period in which some of the customary patterns of thought will have to be reviewed and perhaps revised." Bucks County Courier Times (Newspaper) - October 8, 1969: The space program serves as the cutting edge of technology. Klein. Atomic Energv Commission director of space nuclear systems. ["spare program icrvcs" as retrieved] -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >The bandsaw has a cutting edge. And digital signals have a leading edge and a trailing edge. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>The bandsaw has a cutting edge. > > And digital signals have a leading edge and a trailing edge. As did airfoils before them and as did propellers as far back as 1872 in the bit Donna quoted: That radial edge of a [screw propeller] blade which first enters the water is the forward or leading edge. That which last enters is the after, following, or trailing edge. [From "Elements of machine construction and drawing," 1872.] SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |There is no such thing as bad data, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |only data from bad homes. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >> And digital signals have a leading edge and a trailing edge. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > [From "Elements of machine construction and drawing," 1872.] That definition or distinction is surprisingly clumsy. If we ignore the word 'radial', it only works if the screw blades leave the water during part of their rotation - even in primitive 1872, someone must have twigged that there would be a gross loss of efficiency if both edges were not at all times immersed in the fluid. If we try to apply the word 'radial', we don't know what radius it speaks of; it might be the blade tip as the radial edge of the rotating assembly, in which case 'leading' and 'trailing' don't make any sense, or it might be a reference to the inner or outer curvature of the blade cross-section (inner radius greater than outer radius), in which case why the qualification of 'edge' at all, since all edges of the blade are then necessarily radial? No rnser requird. A far better definition would relate leading and trailing edges to the sense of rotation. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > >> And digital signals have a leading edge and a trailing edge. > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > A far better definition would relate leading and trailing edges to the > sense of rotation. You're welcome to look at the book and see if it makes better sense in context. http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;g=moagrp ;xc=1;q1=first%20enters%20the%20water%20is%20the%20forward%20or%20leadin g;rgn=full%20text;idno=AJR6250.0001.001;didno=AJR6250.0001.001;view=imag e;seq=00000237 or http://tinyurl.com/yev9l4 SignatureBest - Donna Richoux >> >> And digital signals have a leading edge and a trailing edge. >> > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >or >http://tinyurl.com/yev9l4 Thank you. It seems clear that entering the water means entering the uncut cylinder of water which the screw is penetrating, notionally cutting its own thread in the yielding medium. But I still don't get any sense of what 'radial edge' means. Perhaps it simply acknowledges in passing that a ship's screw has curved edges between hub and tip, but to call a curved edge a radial edge seems somewhat extravagant. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! >>> >> And digital signals have a leading edge and a trailing edge. >>> > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >in passing that a ship's screw has curved edges between hub and tip, but >to call a curved edge a radial edge seems somewhat extravagant. If we think of a single screw-blade as a segment of a disc then it has one circumferential edge and two radial edges. Obviously in the real world the blade is not flat and has curved corners between the radial and circumferential edges. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson wrote, in <65gbl295sd5h9kfg9b3r2kmgkbphkgpgs3@4ax.com> on Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:28:30 +0000: > >>> >> And digital signals have a leading edge and a trailing edge. > >>> > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > corners between the radial and circumferential edges. > Perhaps not in 1872. Have a look at the propeller on Brunel's "Great Britain", though that is somewhat earlier. <http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/images/2006/05/25/propeller_300x200.jpg> SignatureNick Spalding >Peter Duncanson wrote, in <65gbl295sd5h9kfg9b3r2kmgkbphkgpgs3@4ax.com> > on Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:28:30 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] >Britain", though that is somewhat earlier. ><http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/images/2006/05/25/propeller_300x200.jpg> Yes. I'd forgotten that. Replace "has curved corners" by "may have curved corners" in what I wrote. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Peter Duncanson wrote, in <65gbl295sd5h9kfg9b3r2kmgkbphkgpgs3@4ax.com> > on Sat, 11 Nov 2006 12:28:30 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Britain", though that is somewhat earlier. ><http://www.bbc.co.uk/bristol/content/images/2006/05/25/propeller_300x200.jpg> Well done that blacksmith! SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! >>Thank you. It seems clear that entering the water means entering the >>uncut cylinder of water which the screw is penetrating, notionally [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >If we think of a single screw-blade as a segment of a disc then it >has one circumferential edge and two radial edges. Segment and sector sap my confidence. I put myself right each time I use them by remembering that a segment of an orange isn't, so the other one must be. I think that from the description you mean sector, the pi-slice shape. >Obviously in the real world the blade is not flat and has curved >corners between the radial and circumferential edges. In the real world just about every conceivable shape seems to have been tried, including warped disc segments with one straightish edge extending radially from the hub and one semicircularish edge making the return trip in a roundabout sort of way. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! >>>Thank you. It seems clear that entering the water means entering the >>>uncut cylinder of water which the screw is penetrating, notionally [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >one must be. I think that from the description you mean sector, the >pi-slice shape. That is correct. This might help if it sticks in the memory and totally replaces all previous confused memories: http://www.cut-the-knot.org/pythagoras/Munching/circle.shtml#names A segment of a line joining to [1] points on a circle is called a chord; a piece of a circle between two points is an arc. A shape bounded by an arc and a chord with the same end points is a segment. A central angle is formed by two radius-vectors. A central angle cuts from a circle a sector. [1] Sic. "two" surely. >>Obviously in the real world the blade is not flat and has curved >>corners between the radial and circumferential edges. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >extending radially from the hub and one semicircularish edge making the >return trip in a roundabout sort of way. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) "The cutting edge" spent time as a military term during WWII, then an economic or political term, before moving onto space and then other technology. Is the Moon the Limit for the US? TIME Magazine - Time Inc. - May 9, 1969 "The space program is the first time we could keep the cutting edge of science and technology sharp without having a major war," he declares. ... Times Recorder, The (Newspaper) - May 8, 1969, Zanesville, Ohio Subscription - Times Recorder - NewspaperArchive - May 8, 1969 Every flight in space was the ultimate for that particular crew and was truly on the cutting edge of science at the time, even though the depth of the slice ... Times Recorder (Newspaper) - October 13, 1968, Zanesville, Ohio Subscription - Times Recorder - NewspaperArchive - Oct 13, 1968 "Our space explorations have been a cutting edge for our progress in technology. "The costs have been high, but the benefits are ust begin- ning to flow ... 1959» Lancaster Eagle Gazette (Newspaper) - October 5, 1959, Lancaster, Ohio Subscription - Lancaster Eagle Gazette - NewspaperArchive - Oct 5, 1959 ... a talk prepared for a general meet- ing of today's visitors that he thinks "progress in machine tools is the very cutting edge of eco- nomic progress. ... The Trouble with Coalitions TIME Magazine - Time Inc. - Dec 22, 1958 The net effect of coalitions is usually to dull debates, to narrow ambitions and to blunt the cutting edge of bold politics. Rivalries that would otherwise ... The Cutting Edge TIME Magazine - Time Inc. - Apr 10, 1950 "Arms are merely the cutting edge" of a nation's power, said General of the Army Dwight Eisenhower. But the edge has to be kept sharp, and the US, ... The Marion Star (Newspaper) - February 16, 1948, Marion, OhioSubscription - Marion Star - NewspaperArchive - Feb 16, 1948 Thal'i tops. the the sharp cutting edge of the Anny'i manpower. The world's best training for manhood in the Infantry, Artillery Cavalry. ... Morton Mfg. Corporation v. Delland Corporation, Morton Mfg ... Subscription - Court of Customs and Patent Appeals - Fastcase - Feb 10, 1948 ... thus presenting the smallest possible surface to the cutting edge of the razor." No soap or lather or other material is used in the shaving process. ... Times Recorder, The (Newspaper) - August 18, 1944, Zanesville, Ohio Subscription - Times Recorder - NewspaperArchive - Aug 18, 1944 ... ake I Orleans in its stride that seems to hold grea or j poisibilitit s At Orleans the cutting edge of Gpneral Fispnhowers massivp forces was onlv 200 m ... -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > "The cutting edge" > spent time as a military term during WWII, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the cutting edge of the razor." No soap or lather > or other material is used in the shaving process. ... This instance (as well as common sense) suggests that "cutting edge" is a metaphor borrowed by plenty of other fields of discourse, but remains a metaphor, i.e. not a term of military art or political art or any organised field except perhaps mechanical engineering. You may find it entered everyday English from either toolmaking or fencing. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) ... > Similarly, "at the coalface" is used for the part of a job where you are > in direct contact with things or people. I would not regard it as > unusual for a teacher to use "at the coalface" to mean "in the > classroom" (as opposed to being at endless, pointless meetings). Now that we got to the coalface, let's also remember Wodehouse's "sons of toil under tons of soil". > I'd agree that we're supposed to understand that it's a gentle joke > between husband and wife, and that he doesn't actually work at or own a > mine. Similarly, I sometimes refer to my office as the "factory". > > The BrE expression "trouble up at t' mill" has a similar connotation > these days. But that's only because nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net C unions never strike! > >> Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a > >> novel. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > The BrE expression "trouble up at t' mill" has a similar connotation > these days. No-one expects the Spanish Inquisition...... >Let me ask a question about the meaning of a phrase from a novel. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >be used figuratively to mean >"workplace". Is "mine" used such a way custamarily? Very common here in Australia is "at the coalface". E.g., a shop assistant may slave away at the coalface while the store's manager reclines in air- conditioned comfort oblivious to the hectic lunchtime crush. That's just one step away from "at the [salt]mine". SignatureJohn Savage (my news address is not valid for email) > Very common here in Australia is "at the coalface". E.g., a shop > assistant may slave away at the coalface while the store's manager > reclines in air- conditioned comfort oblivious to the hectic > lunchtime crush. > > That's just one step away from "at the [salt]mine". Except that in Australia we still do, despite all the worries about global warming, have large numbers of people who are quite literally working at the coalface. I've been in hospital this last three weeks, and share my room with a miner who was suffering from post-traumatic stress. He had twice been buried in a mine collapse, and had developed a fear of going underground. A natural fear, of course, except that it had reached the point of making him non-functional in other areas of his life. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > > Very common here in Australia is "at the coalface". E.g., a shop > > assistant may slave away at the coalface while the store's manager > > reclines in air- conditioned comfort oblivious to the hectic > > lunchtime crush. > > That's just one step away from "at the [salt]mine". > Except that in Australia we still do, despite all the worries about > global warming, have large numbers of people who are quite literally > working at the coalface. I wonder if we still have coal mines in the old sense in North America. I may be wrong, but my impression is that instead of tunneling into the earth to get to the coal, we remove the earth (not the Earth) and dig the exposed coal with power shovels. I think it's called strip mining. I've read horror stories about the devastation produced by strip mining. When I now Google on "strip mining" and "devastation", I get 22,000 hits. > I've been in hospital this last three weeks, and share my room with a > miner who was suffering from post-traumatic stress. He had twice been > buried in a mine collapse, and had developed a fear of going > underground. A natural fear, of course, except that it had reached the > point of making him non-functional in other areas of his life. If I had experienced even one collapse, I don't think I would need fear to keep me from going back into the hole. Seems like common sense should be enough. [...] > > Except that in Australia we still do, despite all the worries about > > global warming, have large numbers of people who are quite literally [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > strip mining. When I now Google on "strip mining" and > "devastation", I get 22,000 hits. It can be a social and ecological nightmare. The technique of stripping off the overburden and digging a big hole is known in BrEtcE as "open-cast mining": it can be done only when geology permits, as the cost of shifting dirt has to be included in the production cost. Several British coal seams are a long way under ground -- and some stretch out to sea, too -- so of course stripping wouldn't work. I learnt on visiting one of the oldest Welsh pits that, originally, "miners" were after "mine" -- iron ore -- while coal-seekers were colliers. This use of "mine" for "mineral" seems from OED to be about as old as the "hole-in-the-ground" sense, and I think the document I was shown dated from the 18th or even 19th C. As far as I know, British mines were always called "pits" by those who worked in them. > > I've been in hospital this last three weeks, and share my room with a > > miner who was suffering from post-traumatic stress. He had twice been [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would need fear to keep me from going back into the hole. > Seems like common sense should be enough. _Hearing_ about it is enough for me. Though I have been down a nice safe pit a couple of times. I'm not convinced that management has any excuse for a collapse under modern conditions: it would suggest cost-cutting to me. SignatureMike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Several British coal seams are a long way under ground -- and some > stretch out to sea, too -- so of course stripping wouldn't work. I grew up in a coal-mining area (Notts/Derbys borders), where there was a good deal of opencast mining going on. I remember that people of my father's generation called it "outcropping". > I learnt on visiting one of the oldest Welsh pits that, originally, > "miners" were after "mine" -- iron ore -- while coal-seekers were [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > As far as I know, British mines were always called "pits" by those who > worked in them. Not just the people who worked in them, but those of us who grew up around them called them "pits" as well. >>>I've been in hospital this last three weeks, and share my room with a >>>miner who was suffering from post-traumatic stress. He had twice been [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > _Hearing_ about it is enough for me. My father's brothers all worked in coal-mining - his youngest brother was killed in a roof collapse, back in 1950. My father suffered from terrible claustrophobia, and went to work on a farm in his youth. In 1938, he joined the Royal Dragoons, and was stationed out in Palestine when WWII broke out. He spent most of the war as an armoured car driver. My brother and I visited a military museum in Norfolk, and saw an example of the kind of vehicle that he drove, and we couldn't imagine how he was able to function stuck inside such a tiny space. Though I have been down a nice > safe pit a couple of times. I went down a pit in Derbyshire when I was at school in the 1960s. That was plenty for me. I know that my parents were extremely nervous about the visit, although the worst thing that happened to me was that I slipped on the steps of the bus on the way home. I'm not convinced that management has any > excuse for a collapse under modern conditions: it would suggest > cost-cutting to me. I don't know enough about mining these days, but I am sure that it is never as predictable a situation as we would want it to be. To me, it always seemed like a barbaric way to have to make a living. Fran Frances Kemmish wrote, in <4rc6qrFqj534U1@mid.individual.net> on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 14:59:05 -0500: > Though I have been down a nice > > safe pit a couple of times. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the visit, although the worst thing that happened to me was that I > slipped on the steps of the bus on the way home. The only mine I was ever down was the salt mine in Winsford, Cheshire, in about 1947. I think it was the only true salt mine in the UK though there were several in the neighbourhood getting salt by pumping hot water down and brine back up. I wonder if it is still operating. SignatureNick Spalding [...] > I'm not convinced that management has any > > excuse for a collapse under modern conditions: it would suggest [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > never as predictable a situation as we would want it to be. To me, it > always seemed like a barbaric way to have to make a living. Me too. But there was always the community aspect of it: it was a disciplined activity, and to some extent the men seem to have got a sort of "brothers-in-arms" satisfaction out of the job, so I think colliers may have had a love-hate relationship with the pit. In the same way, I had an impression that they saw themselves both as toads beneath the harrow and as a kind of ?lite. I don't know if that fits with your much closer and less speculative observation. SignatureMike. >[...] >> I'm not convinced that management has any [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >beneath the harrow and as a kind of élite. I don't know if that fits >with your much closer and less speculative observation. They were certainly a close-knit community. My local pit, Babbington Colliery, was about half a mile down the road, and maybe half my neighbours were colliers. I don't know whether the pithead baths were not very good in the early 1950s, or whether many of them simply preferred to bathe at home, but you'd often see them early in the morning walking back from the pit with black faces and hands. I remember in 1956 I met a youth who had been in the year after mine at school and who had just turned 18. He was working on the coal face where, with shift allowances, he could earn about £30 per week. That was twice what my father earned at a cycle works. My first wife's father was a miner, and when I first met him in 1962, he was in his forties and already too 'worked out' for pit-face work. He told me how dangerous the pits had been when they were privately owned, and how that had changed after nationalisation, which happened 1/1/1947. He lived until he was in his 70s, but he was classified as 10% disabled for the last ten years of his life and died, like so many did, from the fibrosis caused by pneumoconiosis. SignatureRobin Herts, England > My first wife's father was a miner, and when I first met him in 1962, > he was in his forties and already too 'worked out' for pit-face work. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 10% disabled for the last ten years of his life and died, like so many > did, from the fibrosis caused by pneumoconiosis. I remember twin girls, a few years older than me, who became physiotherapists. I met one at the local hospital, when I was in having my tonsils out. She told me that all she did all day was help old miners to cough up the black goo from their lungs. It wasn't what she'd expected when she started her training. Fran > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > beneath the harrow and as a kind of élite. I don't know if that fits > with your much closer and less speculative observation. I have talked about this before: I checked in the Google archives, and found that I had said almost the same things back in 2001 that I was going to write today (the thread subject was "To carry coals to Newcastle"). The miners that I grew up amongst were proud hard-working men. They were doing a hard dangerous job, and they knew it. They also had very little choice about going "down the pit": it was what was available, and it was what their fathers and uncles had done before them, so they couldn't let them down by going off to do something else, somewhere else. That "brotherhood" thing certainly came into it - you had to follow the customs of your group: for instance, there was a perverse pride in not wearing safety equipment like facemasks (because they were uncomfortable, and because you'd get derided for it). But most of them didn't want their children to have to do what they had had to. That was drummed into most of us from an early age. "Do anything you like, but don't go down the pit." When I was at home for my mother's funeral last year, I had a conversation with an old friend whose father had been a good friend of my father. John told me that one of his younger brothers was working on a contract for the coal board (or whatever it is called now). He said "Dad must be spinning in his grave knowing that Rich is working for them" - and this was someone who wasn't working underground, but supplying some kind of joinery work. [1] On the other hand, I remember when the downturn in our local mines began to bite, back in the 1960s. Skilled men were put out of work when the mines began to close, and the only jobs that were in good supply were in the hosiery and garment factories - women's work, as it was viewed then. It was demeaning for men who had made a good living for their families to sit at home while their wives went to work. Depression and sickness were commonplace. Fran [1] When Rich left school, he had taken an apprenticeship as a joiner with our local undertaker. I don't know how common it is nowadays, but it was very common then for an undertaker also to do skilled woodwork. Mike Lyle wrote, in <1162927007.029890.245800@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> on 7 Nov 2006 11:16:47 -0800: > As far as I know, British mines were always called "pits" by those who > worked in them. For coal yes, but I'm not so sure about the tin and copper mines in Cornwall, not to mention gold in Wales. SignatureNick Spalding >I wonder if we still have coal mines in the old sense in >North America. There was certainly an underground coal mine in operation in the US at the beginning of this year. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Sago_Mine_disaster The Sago Mine Disaster was a coal mine explosion on January 2, 2006, in the Sago Mine in Sago, West Virginia, USA that trapped thirteen miners for nearly two days. The owner of that mine, International Coal Group, continues in business. http://www.intlcoal.com/ SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> I wonder if we still have coal mines in the old sense in >> North America. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > business. > http://www.intlcoal.com/ In English usage, it seems you're implying they shouldn't be. Not sure /exactly/ where I stand on this, and off topic as well, SignatureMaria >>> I wonder if we still have coal mines in the old sense in >>> North America. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >In English usage, it seems you're implying they shouldn't be. That was not my intention. I was responding to Bob's "I wonder if we still have coal mines...". It was natural for my answer to mirror his question. I chose to use wording with "continue" rather than "still". >Not sure /exactly/ where I stand on this, and off topic as well, Ditto. There are degrees of off-topicness (off-topicity?). This subject is well outside even aue's extended purview. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) |
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