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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Nobody but me
The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error." Then I thought, "That sounds wrong. It sounds like it ought to be 'Nobody but *I* noticed the error.' " But that sounded even more wrong. The practical solution to the problem, I realize, is "Nobody, except me, noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow "Nobody but." Thanx DianeE > The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > me, noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow > "Nobody but." You were right the first time: "me".  SignatureRegards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >> The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error." >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You were right the first time: "me". I'd say, "I was the only one to notice the error." SignatureSkitt Love nobody but me. I think all these four combinations would work. (first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical literature) 188,000 hits for "No one but me" 12 from literaturepost.com for "No one but me" 42,500 for "No one but I" 8 from literaturepost.com for "No one but I" 211,000 for "Nobody but me" 19 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but me" 52,000 for "Nobody but I" 7 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but I" As you can see, the "I" versions are in lesser use, and see pretentious to some these days. Marius Hancu > I think all these four combinations would work. > (first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > As you can see, the "I" versions are in lesser use, and see pretentious > to some these days. The implication of that "see[m] pretentious to some" is that "Nobody but I" would have been considered correct in traditional grammar. Since "but," meaning "except for," is a preposition, the following pronoun must be in the objective form (unless it is itself the subject of a clause, which is not the case here) if going by the traditional rules. That is, traditionally, the only correct form would have been "Nobody but me." "Nobody but I" is like "between you and I," then, in being originally the result of hypercorrection. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > > I think all these four combinations would work. > > (first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > "Nobody but I" is like "between you and I," then, in being originally > the result of hypercorrection. I took a look at the hits from literaturepost.com . Three of the seven hits for "Nobody but I" were cases where "I" was the subject of a clause: In *The Journal to Stella* by Jonathan Swift: "I went to the Drawing-room before dinner (for the Queen was at Hampton Court), and expected to see nobody; but I met acquaintance enough." In *The History of Mr. Polly* by H.G. Wells: "I'm just a nobody. But I know you are the best and most beautiful thing I've ever spoken to." In *The Portrait of a Lady,* Vol. 1, by Henry James "I suppose it's the right way to feel everywhere, when one IS nobody. But I like it in a church as little as anywhere else." -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com [...] > I took a look at the hits from literaturepost.com . Three of the seven > hits for "Nobody but I" were cases where "I" was the subject of a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > "I suppose it's the right way to feel everywhere, when one IS nobody. > But I like it in a church as little as anywhere else." I was surprised to see that AHD4, in a usage note for "but" as a preposition, says that some traditional grammarians have argued that "but" in "Nobody but I," where Nobody" is the subject of a clause or sentence, is a conjunction. See http://www.bartleby.com/61/71/B0577100.html -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com > I was surprised to see that AHD4, in a usage note for "but" as a > preposition, says that some traditional grammarians have argued that > "but" in "Nobody but I," where Nobody" is the subject of a clause or > sentence, is a conjunction. > > See http://www.bartleby.com/61/71/B0577100.html Interesting reference. This, to me, seems that there _were_ some traditional grammarians (I mean professionals) arguing in favor of "Nobody but I," isn't it? Marius Hancu >> I was surprised to see that AHD4, in a usage note for "but" as a >> preposition, says that some traditional grammarians have argued that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > This, to me, seems that there _were_ some traditional grammarians (I > mean professionals) arguing in favor of "Nobody but I," isn't it? Right, but they are few. See also http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > I think all these four combinations would work. > (first you have the Yahoo hits, then the hits in the classical [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > 52,000 for "Nobody but I" > 7 from literaturepost.com for "Nobody but I" However, you appear to have overlooked entirely the subject/object role. Literaturepost shows both of these, for example: (subject) Nobody but I shall come near you to-day (object) the strange man looked at nobody but me The capital N in your quotes contributes to the mistaken impression. None of these search engines can identify capital letters. > As you can see, the "I" versions are in lesser use, and see pretentious > to some these days. I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded nearly unbearable for Americans to say "I" in constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I." SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded early unbearable for Americans to say "I" in constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I." And "I, too". It is "Me too", when used at all. Both are avoided in higher registers. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded > early unbearable for Americans to say "I" in > constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I." > > And "I, too". It is "Me too", when used at all. > Both are avoided in higher registers. As noted elsewhere, "nobody but I" sounds unbearable exactly because it *is* wrong. "It is I" is correct, and its bearability seems highly subjective; but any unbearability is largely irrelevant, owing to availability of the words "I am". "Me, too" can, I'd reckon, be used in any register if used rightly. "I want a holiday," said James. "I, too, want a holiday," said Sara; "In fact, I need one." "Me, too," remarked Elaine. Elaine's grammar is just as good as Sara's. (Elaine can be thought of as, in effect, saying "Give one to me, too," or "include me in that thought, too.") Donna Richoux wrote: I agree with that -- post-WWII, it sounded early unbearable for Americans to say "I" in constructions like "Nobody but I" and "It is I." Richard Maurer wrote: And "I, too". It is "Me too", when used at all. Both are avoided in higher registers. Eric Walker wrote about the acceptability of: "I, too, want a holiday," said Sara; "In fact, I need one." Yes, that is barely tolerable. Most 'Sara's would say "I want a holiday too." It is the bare "I, too" that is not done at all. It does not work to expand it to "I do too" for that sounds like the petulant expression. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Yes, that is barely tolerable. > Most 'Sara's would say > "I want a holiday too." Nine out of ten Saras agree: it's time for a vacation. SignatureSML [...] > Eric Walker wrote about the acceptability of: > "I, too, want a holiday," said Sara; [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Most 'Sara's would say > "I want a holiday too." It's interesting that a construction that is barely tolerable turns up almost eleven million Google hits. Granted, as is almost always the case in phrase searches, some are spurious ("Am I too old to learn a language?"), but a quick scan of the first results page suggests that many, probably most, are real. I also suspect that most Saras would rather be clear about their meaning, and so would place the word where its function is clear, instead of appending it in a way that makes it unclear, absent definite context, whether they mean that they, as well as someone else, want a holiday or mean that they want a holiday in addition to something else. Eric Walker wrote about the acceptability of: "I, too, want a holiday," said Sara; "In fact, I need one." Yes, that is barely tolerable. Most 'Sara's would say "I want a holiday too." It's interesting that a construction that is barely tolerable turns up almost eleven million Google hits. Granted, as is almost always the case in phrase searches, some are spurious ("Am I too old to learn a language?"), but a quick scan of the first results page suggests that many, probably most, are real. You are right, there are millions of hits, and presumably millions of people say it or write it. But I don't say it. (I was afraid that I would hear myself say it soon after writing the above excerpt, and perhaps the right opportunity may still present itself.) Perhaps it is regional. Or perhaps it is said in more formal settings, as when one stands up after being recognized by the chair at a large meeting, but not said when among friends. Maybe it is both regional and formal. -- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error." > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > noticed the error," but I remain unsure over what should follow "Nobody > but." It's not a fully settled point. The poster child for the problem is that mighty literateur Mrs. Felicia Hemans and her _Casabianca_, with its dreadful line "The boy stood on the burning deck whence all but he had fled." As Wilson Follett engagingly put it: "To the reader whose equipment is restricted to mere common sense such a _but_ seems plainly a preposition meaning _except_ and therefore logically and grammatically to be followed by _him_, not _he_. But the dictionaries see it otherwise. . . ." Eliding the full quotations from and discussion of each dictionary he cites, the gravamen is that some insist on interpreting that _but_ as a conjunction, thus to be followed by a pronoun in the nominative case. Now the old saying that the shortest words make the longest problems has much truth, and _but_ can at times be tricky to pin down as this or that part of speech. If, however, we consider this particular construction, we see that the conjunctive school is asking us to read the thing as, in effect, "whence all had fled but he had not fled". (Follett's article on the point includes many further illustrative examples of interest that I will skip.) The crux is, as he points out, that that interpretation is not merely one of grammatical artifice but one that changes the very meaning of the subject "but". If one says "Nobody came but I/me", the meaning of that _but_ is clearly "with the exception of_; but insist that it expand out into "Nobody came but I came" or the like and you convert the _but_ into an adversative conjunction signifying "on the contraray, on the other hand", a decidedly nontrivial alteration in sense. I have never run across any suggestion of why persons who seem able to feed and dress themselves without assistance regularly undertake imitations of the famous Laocoon statue in attempts to make Mrs. Hemans, apparently the Joyce Kilmer of her day, seem correct on this point. > > The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error." > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > the _but_ into an adversative conjunction signifying "on the contraray, > on the other hand", a decidedly nontrivial alteration in sense. ------------- Thank you; this explains it well. ("Nobody knows, nobody sees Nobody knows but me" --Lefty Frizzell: Long Black Veil) DianeE >>> The other day I said "Nobody but me noticed the error." >>> [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > Nobody knows but me" > --Lefty Frizzell: Long Black Veil) This subject is covered very well in The American Heritage® Book of English Usage at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > This subject is covered very well in > The American Heritage® Book of English Usage > at http://www.bartleby.com/64/C001/052.html ------------- Oh, that's terrific. Thanks. I've bookmarked that site. (Too bad, though; I enjoy visiting this newsgroup!) DianeE The DianeE entity posted thusly: >> This subject is covered very well in >> The American Heritage® Book of English Usage [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >(Too bad, though; I enjoy visiting this newsgroup!) Is there some reason you cannot visit both that site and this newsgroup? > The DianeE entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Is there some reason you cannot visit both that site and this > newsgroup? -------------- No. I meant that I routinely visit this newsgroup to ask grammar questions, but now I will have to visit it just for fun. Horrors! DianeE > No. I meant that I routinely visit this newsgroup to ask grammar questions, > but now I will have to visit it just for fun. Horrors! Sheep and food are also On Topic, you know. SignatureSML |
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