 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006social and material resources?
In the following sentence, what does 'social and material resources' mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material resource', or 'resources which are both social and material'? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yet the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States raise an issue: What is the response protocol to an event - such as terrorism, sabotage, arson, and cyber attacks - that is so rare and damaging it outstrips preparations, plans, and social and material resources? > In the following sentence, what does 'social and material resources' > mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material resource', or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > sabotage, arson, and cyber attacks - that is so rare and damaging it > outstrips preparations, plans, and social and material resources? In this context: social resources: "soft" resources such as human labour, teamwork, innovation, services etc material resources: physical assets For the record, I'm not sure the sentence amounts to good syntax. I suspect the writer became confused. Response protocols being rare (sorry Daniel) and damaging enough to outstrip [...] sounds odd to me. TOF >>In the following sentence, what does 'social and material resources' >>mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material resource', or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>sabotage, arson, and cyber attacks - that is so rare and damaging it >>outstrips preparations, plans, and social and material resources? I would say that "social and material resources" refers to "social resources and material resources." > In this context: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > suspect the writer became confused. Response protocols being rare > (sorry Daniel) and damaging enough to outstrip [...] sounds odd to me. And why is your misreading of the sentence the one to go with? "What is the response protocol to an event that is so rare..." is not bad syntax, in my estimation. --Jeff  SignatureNot ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge. -Alfred North Whitehead > >>In the following sentence, what does 'social and material resources' > >>mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material resource', or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I would say that "social and material resources" refers to "social > resources and material resources." Wow. If only I'd thought to make that point. > > In this context: > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > And why is your misreading of the sentence the one to go with? I misread it? > "What is the response protocol to an event that is so rare..." is not > bad syntax, in my estimation. Some will object though that the use of "it" here is ambiguous (the protocol or the event?), or at best, imposes excessive work on the Tony Coopers of the world. "What is the response protocol to an event that is so rare and damaging it outstrips preparations, plans, and social and material resources?" The use of "and" before "damaging it" also suggests a new clause which could leave the reader wondering "damaging what?". By the time you get to the end, you realise that this reading makes it word salad, but by then it's too late. You have to go back. No Jeffrey, it's clumsy at best. Into the bin with it. Perhaps it would have been better as follows: "It's unclear which protocols should be used to answer events as rare and damaging as terrorism, sabotage, arson, and cyber attacks since such events outstrip preparations, plans, and social and material resources". There's a lot in there, so two sentences would be rather better. TOF >>>> In the following sentence, what does 'social and material >>>> resources' mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Wow. If only I'd thought to make that point. Wow indeed. That point is the answer to the OP's question (see above). [...] > >>>> In the following sentence, what does 'social and material > >>>> resources' mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > [...] My response gave that answer by offering separate definitions for "social" and "material". TOF >>>>>> In the following sentence, what does 'social and material >>>>>> resources' mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > My response gave that answer by offering separate definitions for > "social" and "material". I don't see how defining those two terms addresses the question asked: whether or not the phrase quoted means "resources which are both social and material". I'm sorry I posted that rather petty response, though, and I don't think I'll be pursuing the argument. The conch shell is all yours, if you want it. > >>>>>> In the following sentence, what does 'social and material > >>>>>> resources' mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > asked: whether or not the phrase quoted means "resources which are > both social and material". Well if components are distinct from each other they can't be one thing *at the same time* can they? > I'm sorry I posted that rather petty response, though, and I don't > think I'll be pursuing the argument. The conch shell is all yours, > if you want it. What's a conch shell? TOF TOF <Fran.Beta@gmail.com> had it: > > I'm sorry I posted that rather petty response, though, and I don't > > think I'll be pursuing the argument. The conch shell is all yours, > > if you want it. > > What's a conch shell? Oooooh, a gap in knowledge. Golding - Lord of the Flies. Read it. SignatureDavid ===== >TOF <Fran.Beta@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Oooooh, a gap in knowledge. Golding - Lord of the Flies. Read it. Absolutely, not to mention the even better _Pincher Martin_; and _The Inheritors_ and _Free Fall_, my two personal favourites. SignatureCharles Riggs >> >>>>>> In the following sentence, what does 'social and material >> >>>>>> resources' mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >What's a conch shell? See "Lord of the Flies" by William Golding. SignatureRobin Herts, England > What's a conch shell? I get the reference, but I'm curious: how do you say it? I've always said "conk," but now and then run into someone who pronounces the "h." (Perhaps I run into these people constantly -- it's not a word that comes up often.) SignatureSML >> What's a conch shell? >> >I get the reference, but I'm curious: how do you say it? I've always >said "conk," but now and then run into someone who pronounces the "h." >(Perhaps I run into these people constantly -- it's not a word that >comes up often.) I didn't get the reference because conch shells are so commonly seen here. I think of them just as shells. Conch chowder and other dishes made with conch are often available in restaurants here. And, we (people in my hearing) pronounce it "conk". SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >> What's a conch shell? >> > I get the reference, but I'm curious: how do you say it? I've always > said "conk," but now and then run into someone who pronounces the "h." > (Perhaps I run into these people constantly -- it's not a word that > comes up often.) consh, chez nous. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >> What's a conch shell? >> >I get the reference, but I'm curious: how do you say it? I've always >said "conk," but now and then run into someone who pronounces the "h." >(Perhaps I run into these people constantly -- it's not a word that >comes up often.) Since I¡ve always assumed it comes from the Spanish/Portuguese *concha*, I tend to react to the "conk" pronunciation the same way as I do to the "macko" pronunciation of "macho" -- it makes my fists clenk and my knuckles go white. ObAUE: In French a *conche* is a chocolate-making machine. SignatureRoss Howard >>> What's a conch shell? >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >I do to the "macko" pronunciation of "macho" -- it makes my fists >clenk and my knuckles go white. "Conk" also flies in the face of basic principles of spelling, making it even more of a mystery. Although "nch" can be pronounced /Nk/ -- in "anchor" or "inchoate", for example -- it isn't when it appears at the end of a word: in "branch", "lunch", "bench" "punch", "launch", "wrench", "raunch", etc. it's always /ntS/. If we want /Nk/ we use "nk" ("bank", "punk", "spank", "blink"). (Ducks to avoid flying counterexamples dragged up from the dank dungeons of the OED.) SignatureRoss Howard [...] > "Conk" also flies in the face of basic principles of spelling, > making it even more of a mystery. Although "nch" can be pronounced [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (Ducks to avoid flying counterexamples dragged up from the dank > dungeons of the OED.) Fly, little nudibranch. >[...] >> "Conk" also flies in the face of basic principles of spelling, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Fly, little nudibranch. Very pretty. Does it fly naturally or does to cheat with high tech assistance? SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> [...] >>> "Conk" also flies in the face of basic principles of spelling, [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Very pretty. Yes. I wonder if they ever put them in sushi. > Does it fly naturally or does to cheat with high tech assistance? I could give it a boost, but I'm not very high-tech. >For the record, I'm not sure the sentence amounts to good syntax. I >suspect the writer became confused. Response protocols being rare >(sorry Daniel) and damaging enough to outstrip [...] sounds odd to me. Why did you say "(sorry Daniel)"? daniel mcgrath SignatureDaniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com" Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.] > >For the record, I'm not sure the sentence amounts to good syntax. I > >suspect the writer became confused. Response protocols being rare > >(sorry Daniel) and damaging enough to outstrip [...] sounds odd to me. > > Why did you say "(sorry Daniel)"? It's gentle humour and acknowledgement Daniel. I'm aware that use of the word "rare" in eccentric ways is interesting to you. TOF > In the following sentence, what does 'social and material resources' > mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material resource', or > 'resources which are both social and material'? It means "social resources and material resources". > Yet the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks on the United States raise an issue: > What is the response protocol to an event - such as terrorism, > sabotage, arson, and cyber attacks - that is so rare and damaging it > outstrips preparations, plans, and social and material resources? I am not happy with "response protocol". What the devil is that? > In the following sentence, what does 'social and material resources' > mean? Does it mean 'social resource and material resource', or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sabotage, arson, and cyber attacks - that is so rare and damaging it > outstrips preparations, plans, and social and material resources?" It means "social resources and material resources". When more than one modifier appears before a noun, we need to parse out whether they are co-ordinate or superposed. Co-ordinate modifiers are, one might say, all working independently in parallel: "a tall, blonde, attractive woman" is a woman who is tall, who is blonde, and who is attractive, each assertion being grammatically independent of the others. But a "battered old canvas fishing hat" is *not* a hat that is battered, old, canvas, and fishing; the adjectives are inter-related, superposed. When the adjectives are tied by a conjunction, we can be assured that they are co-ordinate: a tried and true remedy, a tired but willing worker, &c. That said, the sample sentence is a monstrosity as to both grammar and logic. Consider "an event--such as terrorism, sabotage, arson, and cyber attacks--": first, "or" is wanted, not "and", unless we are supposed to conceive the "event" as a concatenation of all the listed items; second, "terrorism" is not an "event"; third, "attacks" are multiple events. Next, what is a "response protocol" when it's at home with its feet up? And how can there be a "response whatever" to something that "outstrips preparations, plans"? It is absurdly oxymoronic. That sentence could not be excused even if it turned out to be a spontaneous oral declaration. [...]> > When the adjectives are tied by a conjunction, we can be assured that > they are co-ordinate: a tried and true remedy, a tired but willing > worker, &c. > > That said, the sample sentence is a monstrosity as to both grammar and > logic. I wouldn't go that far. It's very clumsy, and the syntax is poor, as you rightly point out below. > Consider "an event--such as terrorism, sabotage, arson, and cyber > attacks--": first, "or" is wanted, not "and", unless we are supposed to > conceive the "event" as a concatenation of all the listed items; > second, "terrorism" is not an "event"; third, "attacks" are multiple > events. Exactly, which further complicates the business of working out what "it" refers to. Clearly, it must refer to "an event", but the plural "cyber attacks" comes last. > Next, what is a "response protocol" when it's at home with its feet up? A protocol is a set of procedures to be followed in some circumstance. A response protocol would be the procedures to be followed when responding to the events described in the ensuing passage. > And how can there be a "response whatever" to something that "outstrips > preparations, plans"? It is absurdly oxymoronic. Well it's not required that it be adequate. I suspect that was the ironinc question at hand. > That sentence could not be excused even if it turned out to be a > spontaneous oral declaration. Plainly, the person who composed this has had some familiarity with formal English. There's clear evidence. TOF [...] > > Next, what is a "response protocol" when it's at home with its feet up? > > A protocol is a set of procedures to be followed in some circumstance. > A response protocol would be the procedures to be followed when > responding to the events described in the ensuing passage. [...] > > And how can there be a "response whatever" to something that "outstrips > > preparations, plans"? It is absurdly oxymoronic. > > Well it's not required that it be adequate. I suspect that was the > ironic question at hand. "What are the plans for something we didn't plan for?" Phrased that way, that is, in its true form, it might be thought sarcastic irony. But the context makes it plain (to me, anyway) that the irony was utterly lost on the writer, who--as was already proved--is quite incapable of expressing even simple thoughts rationally (and possibly even of thinking simple thoughts rationally). > [...] > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > "What are the plans for something we didn't plan for?" I don't believe that that was quite what was proposed. Rather, it was "what procedures should one follow to respond to something that will surely defeat our best efforts?". Its tone was plaintive, and its object, perhaps rhetorical. > Phrased that > way, that is, in its true form, it might be thought sarcastic irony. > But the context makes it plain (to me, anyway) that the irony was > utterly lost on the writer, who--as was already proved--is quite > incapable of expressing even simple thoughts rationally (and possibly > even of thinking simple thoughts rationally). When you say "writer" do you mean the OP or the person responsible for the sentence in question? TOF [...] > When you say "writer" do you mean the OP or the person responsible for > the sentence in question? I mean the author of that wretched so-called sentence. The original poster was only asking a straightforward, reasonable question about one small part of the thing. As to the rest, each to his own gout. I still say it is a sorely mangled example of non-thinking fueling non-writing. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.