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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Cane seats in the El
Hello: I was surprised to learn that in the 20s and 30s, these were "cane seats," didn't imagine this application of "cane" or perhaps rattan, what with the plastics all around us these days: ------ [taking a trip from Bronx to Manhattan with the Third Avenue El] ... men bobbing in unison on the cane seats ... E.L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 272 ------ Is the El still in operation, still with the same name? Thank you. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Is the El still in operation, still with the same name? Not that one, at least. The Third Avenue El was demolished in 1956. There were some other Els in Manhattan that were demolished even before that (most famously the Sixth Avenue El, the scrap metal of which was sold to the Japanese who turned it into World War II weaponry, or so it is said). There are still els in New York city (LCIA), outside of Manhattan. Some examples include most of the Flushing Line in Queens, now often known as the 7 train, and several lines in Brooklyn (FLCIA). The term "el" is increasingly obsolete, very unlikely to be used by (New Yorkers) born after 1945, and inconceivable among those born after Sputnik. That might have been reinforced by the decision to Liebso-Erkian-name the Canarsie Line "the L train" in, I assume, the early 1960s or so (I think part of L in Brooklyn is actually an L, but I'm not sure I've ever taken it). The term "el" was sometimes written as "L".  SignatureBuckwheat Soba >>Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > in Brooklyn is actually an L, but I'm not sure I've ever taken it). The > term "el" was sometimes written as "L". That line was the "LL" (Double L) up into the 80s, at least. It didn't become the "L" until all the routes were reduced to single letters for computerization or somesuch. I heard el used for, I believe it was, the Howard Beach line some time around 1990 by a post-Sputnik New Yorker of that vicinity. --Jeff SignatureNot ignorance, but ignorance of ignorance, is the death of knowledge. -Alfred North Whitehead >> There are still els in New York city (LCIA), outside of Manhattan. Some >> examples include most of the Flushing Line in Queens, now often known as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > become the "L" until all the routes were reduced to single letters for > computerization or somesuch. Ah, that's right. Double letters used to be used to imply localness of route (in the sense of stopping at every stop), until the 1990s. I don't know if there was ever an express flavor of the LL that was called the L. Still, it must have been somewhat confusing. (The way I remember things, they were already transitioning away from double letters by the early 1980s. Yes, indeed. The M train was not the MM, for example.) I don't remember an LL too clearly, not the way I remember the RR (which was normally pronounced /d@b@l'Ar/, not /ArAr/, so I assume the LL was /ElEl/). > I heard el used for, I believe it was, the > Howard Beach line some time around 1990 by a post-Sputnik New Yorker of > that vicinity. Surprising. Post-Tet as well? Could be the result of extreme linguistic isolation. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >I don't remember an LL too clearly, not the way I remember the RR (which >was normally pronounced /d@b@l'Ar/, not /ArAr/, so I assume the LL was >/ElEl/). I know the RR was a long route through many neighborhoods so it may have been the "Double R" to some, but in north Queens we called it the /ArAr/. I'm sure that was influenced by the fact that it ran on the same track as the GG (not Double G). As to els, we usually referred to the #7 as "The Flushing Line" but if we were walking on Roosevelt Ave we considered ourselves to be under the el. I'm not sure what Astorians call what is now the R and W el lines. We always referred to it as "The Astoria Line". BW >>I don't remember an LL too clearly, not the way I remember the RR (which >>was normally pronounced /d@b@l'Ar/, not /ArAr/, so I assume the LL was >>/ElEl/). Oops, I meant /d@b@lEl/. > I know the RR was a long route through many neighborhoods so it may > have been the "Double R" to some, but in north Queens we called it the > /ArAr/. I'm pretty sure I knew some kids in Northern Queens who called it the /d@b@lAr/ except when trying to be funny (/ArAr/, among other things, sounds like one of the Orkan terms introduced by Mork on _Mork and Mindy_). > I'm sure that was influenced by the fact that it ran on the > same track as the GG (not Double G). Hmm, there you're right. /dZidZi/ sounds more right than /d@b@ldZi/. The problem with pronouncing "RR" might have been the non-rhoticism, or residual non-rhoticism, of much of the subway-riding population. 0 SignatureBuckwheat Soba Richard Fontana and Jeffrey Turner write: >>> There are still els in New York city (LCIA), outside of Manhattan. Some >>> examples include most of the Flushing Line in Queens, now often known as >>> the 7 train, and several lines in Brooklyn (FLCIA). The term "el" is >>> increasingly obsolete... New York's original el structures were lightly built and would not be suitable for trains as heavy as on the subway; some or all of the ones incorporated into the subway system had to be upgraded. I've seen it said that the term "elevated subway" was used for these lines to distinguish them from the ordinary els, but I haven't seen this distinction made "in the wild", as they say. >>> ...may have been reinforced by the decision to Liebso-Erkian-name (Sigh) >>> the Canarsie Line "the L train" in, I assume, the early 1960s or so >>> ...The term "el" was sometimes written as "L". In Chicago it commonly is. >> That line was the "LL" (Double L) up into the 80s, at least. > Ah, that's right. Double letters used to be used to imply localness of > route (in the sense of stopping at every stop), until the 1990s. Right. > I don't know if there was ever an express flavor of the LL that was > called the L. No, because it's a double-track line. > Still, it must have been somewhat confusing. (The way I remember things, > they were already transitioning away from double letters by the early > 1980s. Yes, indeed. The M train was not the MM, for example.) According to Wikipedia, the M train was an express for a while in the 1970s. They didn't rename it to MM when that ended, though. > I don't remember an LL too clearly, not the way I remember the RR (which > was normally pronounced /d@b@l'Ar/, not /ArAr/, so I assume the LL was > /ElEl/). The RR was pronounced with "double", so you assume the LL wasn't? SignatureMark Brader "The world little knows or cares the storm through Toronto which you have had to pass. It asks only if you msb@vex.net brought the ship safely to port." -- Joseph Conrad My text in this article is in the public domain. > New York's original el structures were lightly built and would not be > suitable for trains as heavy as on the subway; some or all of the ones > incorporated into the subway system had to be upgraded. I've seen it > said that the term "elevated subway" was used for these lines to > distinguish them from the ordinary els Ridiculous. However, one thing that hasn't been noted yet is that "elevated" was often used as a noun as a synonym for "el". SignatureBuckwheat Soba > > New York's original el structures were lightly built and would not be > > suitable for trains as heavy as on the subway; some or all of the ones [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ridiculous. What's rediculous? That the original els were too light for subway cars? That's true. That the elevated portions of the original subway of 1904 and the "Dual Contracts" lines of the 1915-1920 period were distinguished from the 19th century els as "elevated subways?" Also true. I haven't heard the term in a long time,. but it endured into the 1970s at least. Michael Wares >> > New York's original el structures were lightly built and would not be >> > suitable for trains as heavy as on the subway; some or all of the ones [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Also true. I haven't heard the term in a long time,. but it endured > into the 1970s at least. Documentary evidence, please, of the term "elevated subway" being used distinctly from "el" in New York (LCIA). SignatureBuckwheat Soba >>> > New York's original el structures were lightly built and would not be >>> > suitable for trains as heavy as on the subway; some or all of the ones [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> Also true. I haven't heard the term in a long time,. but it endured >> into the 1970s at least. > Documentary evidence, please, of the term "elevated subway" being used > distinctly from "el" in New York (LCIA). I don't have any evidence, I just wonder what you would call the Broadway IRT once it became elevated around 129th Street. SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> "Where is human nature so weak as in a bookstore!" --Henry Ward Beecher >> Documentary evidence, please, of the term "elevated subway" being used >> distinctly from "el" in New York (LCIA). > > I don't have any evidence, I just wonder what you would call the Broadway > IRT once it became elevated around 129th Street. "The train". SignatureBuckwheat Soba > Documentary evidence, please, of the term "elevated subway" being used > distinctly from "el" in New York (LCIA). "Proposal for elevated subway link" NY Times, July 19, 1927, in article "L.I. Road to Explain Razing of Tracks", p.26 -- "Repainting the elevated subway tracks" NY Times Nov. 19, 1978, p. 34 in article "Koch Announces a new $10 Million Program to Revitalize Selected Commercial Areas" -- http://www.movingimage.us/site/about/content/travel.html Travel directions to the Museum of the Modern Image: "turn right under the elevated subway" -- http://www.plexoft.com/SBF/E02.html ELevated train. Usage in New York and other cities. In New York, ``el'' referred to an early elevated light rail system. Later, some parts of that system were integrated into the subway system. The original elevated lines were too light to carry the subway trains, so even where parts of the old el system remain in use, it's a different set of rails and cars. The term el may have been used for a while to refer to the stations or railway corridors of the old el system, or loosely to the service that replaced them, but today the term ``elevated subway'' is widespread for the elevated lines that run in the boroughs of the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens. Michael Wares >> Documentary evidence, please, of the term "elevated subway" being used >> distinctly from "el" in New York (LCIA). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 34 in article "Koch Announces a new $10 Million Program to > Revitalize Selected Commercial Areas" Those don't seem to me to be using "elevated subway" as a fixed term. Rather, it's "elevated {subway tracks}", "elevated {subway link}". > Travel directions to the Museum of the Modern Image: "turn right > under the elevated subway" But that doesn't show that "elevated subway" meant something *different* from "el", as opposed to a synonym for "el". > ELevated train. Usage in New York and other cities. In New York, ``el'' > referred to an early elevated light rail system. Later, some parts of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > widespread for the elevated lines that run in the boroughs of the > Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens. That last statement is false. The widespread term today is "the subway" or "the train". The fact that some lines are elevated for parts of those lines might be noted, as appropriate. SignatureBuckwheat Soba I found 68 references to "elevated subway" in the _New York Times_, from 1904 to 1940. (The original elevated system in Manhattan was mostly gone by the early 1940s, and gone completely by 1955, after which the distinction was unimportant). Many of the 68 were to text such as "elevated, subway, and bus". But there were seven cases which referred to lines built as part of the 20th-century subway construction. None referred to 19th-century elevated lines. Since "elevated" produces thousands of hits, I searched "elevated line", "elevated train" and ".... trains" "elevated tracks" "el" and "els". In about 40 articles chosen at random, I found references to the 19th century el lines of Manhattan and Brooklyn, but none to any of the 20th-century lines. Michael Wares Michael Wares quotes SBF: > Elevated train. Usage in New York and other cities. In New York, ``el'' > referred to an early elevated light rail system. ... Not an independent source. That's Al's retelling of my retelling of what Michael told me. SignatureMark Brader | "... you're a detective, you like mysteries." Toronto | "I hate mysteries. What I like are *solutions*." msb@vex.net | --Barbara Paul, "The Apostrophe Thief" In early November, under the above subject line, I wrote: >>>> New York's original el structures were lightly built and would not be >>>> suitable for trains as heavy as on the subway; some or all of the ones >>>> incorporated into the subway system had to be upgraded. I've seen it >>>> said that the term "elevated subway" was used for these lines to >>>> distinguish them from the ordinary els After which Richard Fontana and Michael Wares debated: >>> Ridiculous. >> What's rediculous? That the original els were too light for subway >> cars? That's true. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Also true. I haven't heard the term in a long time,. but it endured >> into the 1970s at least. > Documentary evidence, please, of the term "elevated subway" being used > distinctly from "el" in New York (LCIA). I've just come across such evidence, although it's in a historical context rather than contemporary usage. Following is an excerpt from a brochure for the exhibit "Elevated City: A History of the Els in New York", which ran in 2002 at the New York Transit Museum. (Quotes in original, ellipses mine.) # From 1913 through the 1920s the City contracted with the IRT ... # and the BRT ... to operate a vastly extended subway system ... # Due to the expense of building below ground, large portions of # these extensions were constructed on elevated piers. Many of # these routes ... are still in service. Though the history and # structure of these "elevated subways" are different from those # of the original elevated system, a ride on these lines offers # today's passenger a sense of what it was like to ride the els. The brochure consistently uses "els" for the older lines before this period, and not for the newer ones referred to here, most of which still exist. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Remember the Golgafrinchans" msb@vex.net -- Pete Granger My text in this article is in the public domain. >>New York's original el structures were lightly built and would not be >>suitable for trains as heavy as on the subway; some or all of the ones [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ridiculous. However, one thing that hasn't been noted yet is that > "elevated" was often used as a noun as a synonym for "el". I was listening today to Leonard Lopate, on WNYC, discussing a book of photographs from the New York Times, when I heard the following exchange: "elevated subways" "Oh yes; the el" Fran } Marius Hancu wrote: }> Hello: }> }> I was surprised to learn that in the 20s and 30s, these were "cane }> seats," didn't imagine this application of "cane" or perhaps rattan, }> what with the plastics all around us these days: }> }> ------ }> [taking a trip from Bronx to Manhattan with the Third Avenue El] }> }> ... men bobbing in unison on the cane seats ... }> }> E.L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 272 }> ------ }> }> Is the El still in operation, still with the same name? } } Not that one, at least. The Third Avenue El was demolished in 1956. I don't know if this is relevant, but my great-grandfather was a willow worker for the Pullman Car Shops in Detroit in the 1870s (and during the same period was listed in one city directory as a basket maker). (Forty or fifty years later he was a machinist in the Japaning department of the Burroughs Adding Machine Company. He was a founding member of the Columbus Lodge of the Independent Order of Odd Fellows and is buried in their lot in Elmwood Cemetery.) Signaturerjv > (Forty or fifty years later he was a machinist in the Japaning > department of the Burroughs Adding Machine Company. Verily? SignatureBuckwheat Soba } R J Valentine wrote: }> (Forty or fifty years later he was a machinist in the Japaning }> department of the Burroughs Adding Machine Company. } } Verily? Would I kid you about a thing like that? So say the census of 1910 and 1920, the city directories of 1914 to 1920, the article about him in _Your News_, the newsletter of the Columbus Lodge, No. 215, of I.O.O.F. (Vol. 1, No. 5, March, 1927), and his eulogy by Richard A. MacRae. My trusty old _American Heritage Dictionary_ (I) has for "japan": "_tr[ansitive]v[erb]_ *japanned, -panning, -pans.* 1. To enamel with japan. 2. To coat with a glossy finish." and "_n[oun]_ 1. A black enamel or lacquer of a type originating in the Orient, used to produce a durable glossy finish. 2. any object decorated and varnished in the Japanese manner." and (while I'm at it) "_adj[ective]_ Relating to or varnished with japan." ObScrabble: no caps. ObSic: only one "n" in my source. ObIOOF: The Columbus Lodge No. 215 was organized in 1871. ObDrift: My first semiserious computer program (after some time on the night shift programming challenges on a spare PDP-8, and not counting class toys) was in Burroughs Extended Algol on a B-5500, wherefor I found it easier to invent what was later (or maybe it was earlier) called Structured Programming, because my Algol class was for a version designed for my employer, which didn't require declaring statement labels, but the Extended Algol did, so I didn't bother with them (easier than to look it up in the manual). ObKidding: Okay, I'd kid a _little_ about linguistics, because linguists need lot of kidding, and I've got little better to do. But I hardly ever kid about japan[n]ing. Signaturerjv > I don't know if this is relevant, but my great-grandfather was a willow > worker for the Pullman Car Shops in Detroit in the 1870s (and during the > same period was listed in one city directory as a basket maker). (Forty > or fifty years later he was a machinist in the Japaning department of the > Burroughs Adding Machine Company. Willow worker ... Japaning ... Interesting terms. Marius Hancu Marius Hancu: > > I was surprised to learn that in the 20s and 30s, these were "cane > > seats," ... It's been some time since I visited the New York Transit Museum -- the last two times I might have done so, it was closed -- but as I recall, they have one or more subway cars with cane seats there. > > [taking a trip from Bronx to Manhattan with the Third Avenue El] > > ...Is the El still in operation, still with the same name? Richard Fontana: > Not that one, at least. The Third Avenue El was demolished in 1956. > There were some other Els in Manhattan that were demolished ... In particular, there were els on both 2nd and 3rd Avenues, whose demolition increased the loading on the Lexington Avenue subway. This was justified, I've heard, on the grounds that it was only temporary, as the 2nd Avenue subway would be opening in a few years and could then take up the slack. It still hasn't opened. SignatureMark Brader "To err is human, but to really mess things up Toronto you need a timetable planner!" msb@vex.net -- Richard Porter My text in this article is in the public domain. > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > E.L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 272 > ------ Even aeroplanes had cane seats, see <http://acam.ednet.ns.ca/bios/millet.htm> for example, Jan > Even aeroplanes had cane seats, see > <http://acam.ednet.ns.ca/bios/millet.htm> Thank you. Marius Hancu > I was surprised to learn that in the 20s and 30s, these were "cane > seats," didn't imagine this application of "cane" or perhaps rattan, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > E.L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 272 El = Elevated railway (in contrast with AmE Subway = BrE Underground); I think there are still operating Els in Chicago and other US cities as well as New York. (Guessing) I think you will find the cane seat making industry was well-established all over Europe by 1980 and did not die out until the Second World War. The rush seat industry was even older. Curators of furniture at the Smithsonian or Metropolitan Museum or Victoria and Albert can provide details. Cane seats were normal in 3rd class seats of railways and tramways for a long time. One of their curious features are that they are self-cleaning (polished by occupants trousers or skirts) in ways upholstered seats are not. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) >> I was surprised to learn that in the 20s and 30s, these were "cane >> seats," didn't imagine this application of "cane" or perhaps rattan, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > there are still operating Els in Chicago and > other US cities as well as New York. Definitely in Chicago - the loop line. My reproduction Chicago "Loop L Centennial" poster definitely uses the expression "L". Regards Jonathan >>> I was surprised to learn that in the 20s and 30s, these were "cane >>> seats," didn't imagine this application of "cane" or perhaps rattan, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Definitely in Chicago - the loop line. Was there once a "loop line"? I don't think there is one today -- rather, several of the existing lines run along all or part of the loop El, so to say. That El apparently gave rise to the term "the Loop", or so some say, but today "the Loop" refers to the area within and around that loop, forming Chicago's main business district. SignatureBuckwheat Soba >Was there once a "loop line"? I don't think there is one today -- rather, >several of the existing lines run along all or part of the loop El, so to >say. That El apparently gave rise to the term "the Loop", or so some say, >but today "the Loop" refers to the area within and around that loop, >forming Chicago's main business district. Is the Lake Street El no longer extant? I think not. It was running just a few weeks ago. I saw it. The Loop is so-called because of the Lake Street El when it formed the "Union Loop" when the Union Elevated Railroad and the Union Consolidated Elevated Railroad were merged in the late 1800s. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > The Loop is so-called because of the Lake Street El when it formed the > "Union Loop" when the Union Elevated Railroad and the Union > Consolidated Elevated Railroad were merged in the late 1800s. The term "loop district" actually predates the Union Loop; it derives from the loops on the cable car lines that terminated in the area. Michael Wares >> The Loop is so-called because of the Lake Street El when it formed the >> "Union Loop" when the Union Elevated Railroad and the Union >> Consolidated Elevated Railroad were merged in the late 1800s. > >The term "loop district" actually predates the Union Loop; it derives >from the loops on the cable car lines that terminated in the area. I don't doubt your statement, but I would be interested in the source. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >The term "loop district" actually predates the Union Loop; it derives > >from the loops on the cable car lines that terminated in the area. > > > I don't doubt your statement, but I would be interested in the source. Brian Cudahy, in _Destination Loop_ (Stephen Greene Press, 1982), page 7, cites the Chicago Historical Society; also, The _Encyclopedia of Chicago_ at http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/764.html says that it's "apparently" the source of the term. Michael Wares >> >The term "loop district" actually predates the Union Loop; it derives >> >from the loops on the cable car lines that terminated in the area. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Michael Wares Interesting. I've read quite a bit of Chicago history and never come across this particular fact. I'll bet bar bets could be won on it. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > I was surprised to learn that in the 20s and 30s, these were "cane > seats," didn't imagine this application of "cane" or perhaps rattan, "Cane seats", the seats where canes are applied? Or used to in UK schools ... SignaturePer Erik Rønne http://www.RQNNE.dk > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > E.L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 272 [...] I'm almost sure I remember cane seats on Australian trams. Some pre-war civil aircraft had wickerwork passenger seats for lightness. SignatureMike. > > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I'm almost sure I remember cane seats on Australian trams. Some pre-war > civil aircraft had wickerwork passenger seats for lightness. I mentioned cane seats on planes already. But a quick google failed to turn up pictures, Jan >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > I mentioned cane seats on planes already. > But a quick google failed to turn up pictures, Would you settle for a 1959 FIAT "Jolly"? A "resort vehicle" with basketwork seats, this one at Coronado (California) Speed Festival, October 7, 2006. More than 500 Jolly images: http://tinyurl.com/yko66n SignatureFrank ess Ooops > Would you settle for a 1959 FIAT "Jolly"? A "resort vehicle" with > basketwork seats, this one at Coronado (California) Speed Festival, > October 7, 2006. http://static.flickr.com/122/290816819_6ff0357ce2_o.jpg > More than 500 Jolly images: > http://tinyurl.com/yko66n |
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