bronze streetlamps with the little Mercuries
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Marius Hancu - 01 Nov 2006 21:11 GMT Hello:
I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)
Are they small representations of Mercury, the god (Hermes)? A trademark for bulbs?
----- ... crowds welled at the corners under the bronze streetlamps with the little Mercuries ...
E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283 -----
Thank you. Marius Hancu
Martin Ambuhl - 01 Nov 2006 21:42 GMT > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283 Interestingly, but perhaps not responsive to your question, crossroads in ancient Athens were marked with herms (or hermae), squared pillars with busts, usually of Hermes. Male ones also had the feature of a protuding phallus and, sometimes, a set of balls. When Alcibiades' fleet was setting sail for the Sicilian expedition of 415, many of the herms were found mutilated. Thucydides tells us that their faces were mutilated, but there is a widespread view that it was their pricks that were done in. Most writers since have attributed this vandalism to drunken sailors, but Alcibiades was accused of this and other religious scandals. A swift galley was sent to Sicily to retrieve him to stand trial, but he turned coat and fled to Sparta.
Marius Hancu - 02 Nov 2006 04:20 GMT > Interestingly, but perhaps not responsive to your question, crossroads > in ancient Athens were marked with herms (or hermae), squared pillars > with busts, usually of Hermes. Interesting story. I've always liked Greek mythology.
Marius Hancu
R J Valentine - 02 Nov 2006 05:22 GMT } Marius Hancu wrote: }> Hello: }> }> I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-) }> }> Are they small representations of Mercury, the god (Hermes)? }> A trademark for bulbs? }> }> ----- }> ... crowds welled at the corners under the bronze streetlamps with the }> little Mercuries ... }> }> E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283 } } Interestingly, but perhaps not responsive to your question, crossroads } in ancient Athens were marked with herms (or hermae), squared pillars } with busts, usually of Hermes.
Just to try for both interesting _and_ responsive, I'd guess it was the mercury-vapor bulbs mentioned by Garrett Wollman <wollman@csail.mit.edu>.
My cousin Daniel Lane was electrocuted in the line of duty while trying to fix a malfunctioning street lamp at the corner of Cooke and Grove Streets in Waterbury, Connecticut, on the evening of August 7, 1913. Presumably it was one of the mercury-vapor bulbs referred to in this thread, but I don't know for sure. He is memorialized both in Connecticut and at the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial at Judiciary Square in our nation's capital in the shadow (as it were) of the National Building Museum (which is mostly known for the inaugual balls held there. It's probably googlable.
He was born in Cornwall Bridge, as was my great grandfather. Not the one who lived in Detroit, but the one who moved to Oswego Falls, New York, which is now part of Fulton. Robert Fulton was born in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, which is adjacent to Cecil County, Maryland, on the Susquehanna and Octoraro Rivers. Cecil County is of course in the northeast corner of Maryland at the head of the Chesapeake Bay (Largest Estuary in America), at whose heart is the Town of North East.
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Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 10:01 GMT R.J. Valentine:
> My cousin Daniel Lane was electrocuted in the line of duty while trying to > fix a malfunctioning street lamp at the corner of Cooke and Grove Streets > in Waterbury, Connecticut, on the evening of August 7, 1913. Presumably > it was one of the mercury-vapor bulbs referred to in this thread... In 1913? I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | "One thing that surprises you about this business msb@vex.net | is the surprises." -- Tim Baker
Ray - 02 Nov 2006 23:58 GMT > R.J. Valentine: >> My cousin Daniel Lane was electrocuted in the line of duty while [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > In 1913? I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent. Back then many (most?) streetlamps were series-wired incandescents. These systems required very high voltages because they were in series.
Mercury street lamps didn't come in until the late 1940s, according to Wikipedia.
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Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 00:21 GMT >I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)
>... crowds welled at the corners under the bronze streetlamps with the >little Mercuries ... Presumably "mercury-vapor" bulbs. (I put "mercury-vapor" in scare quotes because all gas-discharge streetlamps use mercury vapor. What distinguishes the ones called "mercury vapor" from the others is the lack of other elements or bulb coatings which would modify the emitted spectrum. Such a lamp appears bluish-green, but most of the energy emitted is in the ultraviolet.)
The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my default, would be representations of the mythological Mercury.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Default User - 02 Nov 2006 01:36 GMT > > I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-) > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Presumably "mercury-vapor" bulbs. (I put "mercury-vapor" in scare > quotes because all gas-discharge streetlamps use mercury vapor. What about sodium-vapor lamps?
> The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my default, > would be representations of the mythological Mercury. I suspect you're correct.
Brian
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Skitt - 02 Nov 2006 02:14 GMT >>> I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What about sodium-vapor lamps? Those are lamps of a different color.
Joking aside, the high-pressure sodium (HPS) vapor lamps can also contain some mercury. The low-pressure sodium (LPS) vapor lamps don't.
>> The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my >> default, would be representations of the mythological Mercury. > > I suspect you're correct.
 Signature Skitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/
Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 03:54 GMT > What distinguishes the ones called "mercury vapor" from the others > is the lack of other elements or bulb coatings which would modify > the emitted spectrum. Such a lamp appears bluish-green ... Eh? If anything it's on the purple side of blue. Green is right out. Do you have normal color vision?
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | Bad news disturbs his game; so does good; so msb@vex.net | also does the absence of news. --Stephen Leacock
Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 04:11 GMT >> What distinguishes the ones called "mercury vapor" from the others >> is the lack of other elements or bulb coatings which would modify >> the emitted spectrum. Such a lamp appears bluish-green ... > >Eh? If anything it's on the purple side of blue. Green is right out. >Do you have normal color vision? Yes, it's just been a very long time since I've actually seen one. It's all metal-halides and sodium vapor around here.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 04:17 GMT >Yes, it's just been a very long time since I've actually seen one. >It's all metal-halides and sodium vapor around here. In our building, by the way, we have seventeen different kinds of lights. Most office lighting is a sickly greenish-yellow indirect fluorescent, but we also have these ghastly metal-halide luminaires (which look like they belong in a warehouse or an airport) hanging over many of the open-plan areas. The offices along my corridor all have different (indirect fluorescent) lighting: we replaced the bulbs with more-expensive ones to see if they made it any better. So the far office is bluish, the office next to mine is greenish, and mine is purplish. The office across the hall from me is still the dirty yellow of the original bulbs.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 04:36 GMT > In our building, by the way, we have seventeen different kinds of > lights. Most office lighting is a sickly greenish-yellow indirect > fluorescent, but ... Again with the green! I say that except for the expensive full-spectrum ones, fluorescents come in two colors: a slightly bluish white and a slightly, but more distinctly pinkish white. The they are labeled "cool white" and "warm white" respectively, or CW and WW.
I suppose a greenish tint is possible if they are being viewed through sufficiently old plastic diffusers, though. Those discolor with age.
 Signature Mark Brader "... we still feel that color is hard Toronto on the eyes for so long a picture ..." msb@vex.net -- N.Y. Times review of GONE WITH THE WIND
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 05:28 GMT >Again with the green! I say that except for the expensive full-spectrum >ones, fluorescents come in two colors: a slightly bluish white and a >slightly, but more distinctly pinkish white. The they are labeled >"cool white" and "warm white" respectively, or CW and WW. You haven't seen the fluorescents in our (three-year-old) building. They are very definitely greenish -- that was one of the very first complaints many of us had when we moved in.
If you spend some time looking at lighting catalogues, as I have recently, you'll know that there are several different colors, or rather, color temperatures, available; for our type of fixture alone there are 3000 K, 3200 K, 3500 K, 4100 K, 5600 K, and 6500 K.
These are not the sort of bulbs you'll find in your local Home Despot.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 09:50 GMT Mark Brader:
>> Again with the green! I say that except for the expensive full-spectrum >> ones, fluorescents come in two colors: a slightly bluish white and a >> slightly, but more distinctly pinkish white. The they are labeled >> "cool white" and "warm white" respectively, or CW and WW. Garrett Wollman:
> You haven't seen the fluorescents in our (three-year-old) building. No, I haven't.
> They are very definitely greenish -- that was one of the very first > complaints many of us had when we moved in. Hokay, if everyone agrees, fine.
> If you spend some time looking at lighting catalogues, as I have > recently, you'll know that there are several different colors, or > rather, color temperatures, available; for our type of fixture alone > there are 3000 K, 3200 K, 3500 K, 4100 K, 5600 K, and 6500 K. "Color temperature" is basically an attempt to relate the light's spectrum to incandescent light, but it's impossible for incandescent light to be green; the temperature between the ones that correspond to yellow and blue gives white. (This is why there are no green stars.)
> These are not the sort of bulbs you'll find in your local Home Despot. "Except for full-spectrum and other exotic types", then. Okay?
 Signature Mark Brader "Do YOU trust US?" Toronto "YES!! Well, we try to." msb@vex.net -- A Walk in the Woods, by Lee Blessing
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Ray - 03 Nov 2006 00:02 GMT >>I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my > default, would be representations of the mythological Mercury. When is the novel set? The first commercial mercury streetlighting fixture was developed in 1948, according to Wikipedia. Also, mercury lamps are anything but "little" to someone used to ordinary household bulbs. The early ones would probably have been the size of American footballs.
The IMDB.com listing for the movie version says "In the [sic] 1935, fifteen year old street hustler Billy Bathgate...", a decade or two too early.
The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me, especially with the capital M and the reference to bronze.
 Signature Ray (remove the Xs to reply)
CDB - 03 Nov 2006 02:52 GMT [reasons]
> The IMDB.com listing for the movie version says "In the [sic] 1935, > fifteen year old street hustler Billy Bathgate...", a decade or two > too early. > > The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me, especially > with the capital M and the reference to bronze. Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point. I've been trying desultorily, without success, to find a web image of a vague memory I have, of a New York telephone or power company emblem featuring Mercury with a lightning bolt. As this site shows, the association is not entirely outlandish.
http://www.nyge.com/V6686-A.jpg
Mark Brader - 03 Nov 2006 23:49 GMT "Ray":
> > The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me, especially > > with the capital M and the reference to bronze. C.D.B.:
> Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point. No, but I was *thinking* it.
 Signature Mark Brader | "Oh, sure, you can make anything sound sleazy if you, Toronto | you know, tell it exactly the way it happened." msb@vex.net | -- Bruce Rasmussen: "Anything But Love"
CDB - 05 Nov 2006 01:01 GMT > "Ray": >>> The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > No, but I was *thinking* it. Sorry, I had snipped the point you made:
"In 1913? I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent."
It leads to the conclusion that the only other possibility mentioned is the right one.
Mark Brader - 05 Nov 2006 03:26 GMT C.D.B.:
>>> Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point. Mark Brader:
>> No, but I was *thinking* it. C.D.B.:
> Sorry, I had snipped the point you made: > > "In 1913? I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent." But I wasn't talking about the book there. The only indication we've had in the thread of the date when it was set was an IMDB quote putting the movie adaptation in the 1930s. I was talking about the death of R.J. Valentine's cousin Daniel Lane in Waterbury, Connecticut.
 Signature Mark Brader "I always hoped that when someone quoted me Toronto it would be because I said something profound." msb@vex.net -- Chris Volpe
CDB - 05 Nov 2006 14:18 GMT > C.D.B.: >>>> Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > about the death of R.J. Valentine's cousin Daniel Lane in > Waterbury, Connecticut. Must. read. more. slowly. (Thought I was politely overlooking the fact that you'd gotten the date of the story wrong, since in any case it took place before mercury-vapour lamps.)
Nick Spalding - 02 Nov 2006 14:20 GMT Marius Hancu wrote, in <Wc72h.58614$H9.593746@wagner.videotron.net> on Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:11:38 -0500:
> Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283 > ----- What it brings to my mind is the lamp standards along the Victoria Embankment in London with their dolphin ornaments. <http://www.ribapix.com/index.php?a=indexes&s=item&key=IYToxOntpOjA7czoxNDoiTGFtc CBzdGFuZGFyZHMiO30=&pg=3> or <http://tinyurl.com/ymlhro>
 Signature Nick Spalding
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