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bronze streetlamps with the little Mercuries

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Marius Hancu - 01 Nov 2006 21:11 GMT
Hello:

I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)

Are they small representations of Mercury, the god (Hermes)?
A trademark for bulbs?

-----
... crowds welled at the corners under the bronze streetlamps with the
little Mercuries ...

E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283
-----

Thank you.
Marius Hancu
Martin Ambuhl - 01 Nov 2006 21:42 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283

Interestingly, but perhaps not responsive to your question, crossroads
in ancient Athens were marked with herms (or hermae), squared pillars
with busts, usually of Hermes.  Male ones also had the feature of a
protuding phallus and, sometimes, a set of balls.  When Alcibiades'
fleet was setting sail for the Sicilian expedition of 415, many of the
herms were found mutilated.  Thucydides tells us that their faces were
mutilated, but there is a widespread view that it was their pricks that
were done in.  Most writers since have attributed this vandalism to
drunken sailors, but Alcibiades was accused of this and other religious
scandals.  A swift galley was sent to Sicily to retrieve him to stand
trial, but he turned coat and fled to Sparta.
Marius Hancu - 02 Nov 2006 04:20 GMT
> Interestingly, but perhaps not responsive to your question, crossroads
> in ancient Athens were marked with herms (or hermae), squared pillars
> with busts, usually of Hermes.

Interesting story. I've always liked Greek mythology.

Marius Hancu
R J Valentine - 02 Nov 2006 05:22 GMT
} Marius Hancu wrote:
}> Hello:
}>
}> I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)
}>
}> Are they small representations of Mercury, the god (Hermes)?
}> A trademark for bulbs?
}>
}> -----
}> ... crowds welled at the corners under the bronze streetlamps with the
}> little Mercuries ...
}>
}> E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283
}
} Interestingly, but perhaps not responsive to your question, crossroads
} in ancient Athens were marked with herms (or hermae), squared pillars
} with busts, usually of Hermes.

Just to try for both interesting _and_ responsive, I'd guess it was the
mercury-vapor bulbs mentioned by Garrett Wollman <wollman@csail.mit.edu>.

My cousin Daniel Lane was electrocuted in the line of duty while trying to
fix a malfunctioning street lamp at the corner of Cooke and Grove Streets
in Waterbury, Connecticut, on the evening of August 7, 1913.  Presumably
it was one of the mercury-vapor bulbs referred to in this thread, but I
don't know for sure.  He is memorialized both in Connecticut and at the
National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial at Judiciary Square in our
nation's capital in the shadow (as it were) of the National Building
Museum (which is mostly known for the inaugual balls held there.  It's
probably googlable.

He was born in Cornwall Bridge, as was my great grandfather.  Not the one
who lived in Detroit, but the one who moved to Oswego Falls, New York,
which is now part of Fulton.  Robert Fulton was born in Lancaster County,
Pennsylvania, which is adjacent to Cecil County, Maryland, on the
Susquehanna and Octoraro Rivers.  Cecil County is of course in the
northeast corner of Maryland at the head of the Chesapeake Bay (Largest
Estuary in America), at whose heart is the Town of North East.

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rjv

Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 10:01 GMT
R.J. Valentine:
> My cousin Daniel Lane was electrocuted in the line of duty while trying to
> fix a malfunctioning street lamp at the corner of Cooke and Grove Streets
> in Waterbury, Connecticut, on the evening of August 7, 1913.  Presumably
> it was one of the mercury-vapor bulbs referred to in this thread...

In 1913?  I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent.
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Ray - 02 Nov 2006 23:58 GMT
> R.J. Valentine:
>> My cousin Daniel Lane was electrocuted in the line of duty while
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> In 1913?  I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent.

Back then many (most?) streetlamps were series-wired incandescents.  
These systems required very high voltages because they were in series.  

Mercury street lamps didn't come in until the late 1940s, according to
Wikipedia.  

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Ray
(remove the Xs to reply)

Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 00:21 GMT
>I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)

>... crowds welled at the corners under the bronze streetlamps with the
>little Mercuries ...

Presumably "mercury-vapor" bulbs.  (I put "mercury-vapor" in scare
quotes because all gas-discharge streetlamps use mercury vapor.  What
distinguishes the ones called "mercury vapor" from the others is the
lack of other elements or bulb coatings which would modify the emitted
spectrum.  Such a lamp appears bluish-green, but most of the energy
emitted is in the ultraviolet.)

The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my default,
would be representations of the mythological Mercury.

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Default User - 02 Nov 2006 01:36 GMT
> > I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Presumably "mercury-vapor" bulbs.  (I put "mercury-vapor" in scare
> quotes because all gas-discharge streetlamps use mercury vapor.

What about sodium-vapor lamps?

> The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my default,
> would be representations of the mythological Mercury.

I suspect you're correct.

Brian
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Skitt - 02 Nov 2006 02:14 GMT
>>> I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> What about sodium-vapor lamps?

Those are lamps of a different color.

Joking aside, the high-pressure sodium (HPS) vapor lamps can also contain
some mercury.  The low-pressure sodium (LPS) vapor lamps don't.

>> The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my
>> default, would be representations of the mythological Mercury.
>
> I suspect you're correct.

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Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 03:54 GMT
> What distinguishes the ones called "mercury vapor" from the others
> is the lack of other elements or bulb coatings which would modify
> the emitted spectrum.  Such a lamp appears bluish-green ...

Eh?  If anything it's on the purple side of blue.  Green is right out.
Do you have normal color vision?
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Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 04:11 GMT
>> What distinguishes the ones called "mercury vapor" from the others
>> is the lack of other elements or bulb coatings which would modify
>> the emitted spectrum.  Such a lamp appears bluish-green ...
>
>Eh?  If anything it's on the purple side of blue.  Green is right out.
>Do you have normal color vision?

Yes, it's just been a very long time since I've actually seen one.
It's all metal-halides and sodium vapor around here.

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 04:17 GMT
>Yes, it's just been a very long time since I've actually seen one.
>It's all metal-halides and sodium vapor around here.

In our building, by the way, we have seventeen different kinds of
lights.  Most office lighting is a sickly greenish-yellow indirect
fluorescent, but we also have these ghastly metal-halide luminaires
(which look like they belong in a warehouse or an airport) hanging
over many of the open-plan areas.  The offices along my corridor all
have different (indirect fluorescent) lighting: we replaced the bulbs
with more-expensive ones to see if they made it any better.  So the
far office is bluish, the office next to mine is greenish, and mine is
purplish.  The office across the hall from me is still the dirty
yellow of the original bulbs.

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 04:36 GMT
> In our building, by the way, we have seventeen different kinds of
> lights.  Most office lighting is a sickly greenish-yellow indirect
> fluorescent, but ...

Again with the green!  I say that except for the expensive full-spectrum
ones, fluorescents come in two colors: a slightly bluish white and a
slightly, but more distinctly pinkish white.  The they are labeled
"cool white" and "warm white" respectively, or CW and WW.

I suppose a greenish tint is possible if they are being viewed through
sufficiently old plastic diffusers, though.  Those discolor with age.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Garrett Wollman - 02 Nov 2006 05:28 GMT
>Again with the green!  I say that except for the expensive full-spectrum
>ones, fluorescents come in two colors: a slightly bluish white and a
>slightly, but more distinctly pinkish white.  The they are labeled
>"cool white" and "warm white" respectively, or CW and WW.

You haven't seen the fluorescents in our (three-year-old) building.
They are very definitely greenish -- that was one of the very first
complaints many of us had when we moved in.

If you spend some time looking at lighting catalogues, as I have
recently, you'll know that there are several different colors, or
rather, color temperatures, available; for our type of fixture alone
there are 3000 K, 3200 K, 3500 K, 4100 K, 5600 K, and 6500 K.

These are not the sort of bulbs you'll find in your local Home Despot.

-GAWollman

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Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Mark Brader - 02 Nov 2006 09:50 GMT
Mark Brader:
>> Again with the green!  I say that except for the expensive full-spectrum
>> ones, fluorescents come in two colors: a slightly bluish white and a
>> slightly, but more distinctly pinkish white.  The they are labeled
>> "cool white" and "warm white" respectively, or CW and WW.

Garrett Wollman:
> You haven't seen the fluorescents in our (three-year-old) building.

No, I haven't.

> They are very definitely greenish -- that was one of the very first
> complaints many of us had when we moved in.

Hokay, if everyone agrees, fine.

> If you spend some time looking at lighting catalogues, as I have
> recently, you'll know that there are several different colors, or
> rather, color temperatures, available; for our type of fixture alone
> there are 3000 K, 3200 K, 3500 K, 4100 K, 5600 K, and 6500 K.

"Color temperature" is basically an attempt to relate the light's
spectrum to incandescent light, but it's impossible for incandescent
light to be green; the temperature between the ones that correspond
to yellow and blue gives white.  (This is why there are no green stars.)

> These are not the sort of bulbs you'll find in your local Home Despot.

"Except for full-spectrum and other exotic types", then.  Okay?
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

Ray - 03 Nov 2006 00:02 GMT
>>I wonder what the little Mercuries are doing here:-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> The only other possible interpretation, and it wouldn't be my
> default, would be representations of the mythological Mercury.

When is the novel set?  The first commercial mercury streetlighting
fixture was developed in 1948, according to Wikipedia.  Also, mercury
lamps are anything but "little" to someone used to ordinary household
bulbs.  The early ones would probably have been the size of American
footballs.

The IMDB.com listing for the movie version says "In the [sic] 1935,
fifteen year old street hustler Billy Bathgate...", a decade or two too
early.

The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me, especially
with the capital M and the reference to bronze.

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Ray
(remove the Xs to reply)

CDB - 03 Nov 2006 02:52 GMT
[reasons]

> The IMDB.com listing for the movie version says "In the [sic] 1935,
> fifteen year old street hustler Billy Bathgate...", a decade or two
> too early.
>
> The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me, especially
> with the capital M and the reference to bronze.

Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point.  I've been trying
desultorily, without success, to find a web image of a vague memory I
have, of a New York telephone or power company emblem featuring
Mercury with a lightning bolt.  As this site shows, the association is
not entirely outlandish.

http://www.nyge.com/V6686-A.jpg
Mark Brader - 03 Nov 2006 23:49 GMT
"Ray":
> > The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me, especially
> > with the capital M and the reference to bronze.

C.D.B.:
> Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point.

No, but I was *thinking* it.
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CDB - 05 Nov 2006 01:01 GMT
> "Ray":
>>> The mythological interpretation seems more likely to me,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> No, but I was *thinking* it.

Sorry, I had snipped the point you made:

"In 1913?  I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent."

It leads to the conclusion that the only other possibility mentioned
is the right one.
Mark Brader - 05 Nov 2006 03:26 GMT
C.D.B.:
>>> Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point.

Mark Brader:
>> No, but I was *thinking* it.

C.D.B.:
> Sorry, I had snipped the point you made:
>
> "In 1913?  I'd be surprised if it was anything but incandescent."

But I wasn't talking about the book there.  The only indication we've
had in the thread of the date when it was set was an IMDB quote putting
the movie adaptation in the 1930s.  I was talking about the death of
R.J. Valentine's cousin Daniel Lane in Waterbury, Connecticut.
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CDB - 05 Nov 2006 14:18 GMT
> C.D.B.:
>>>> Agreed; Mark Brader has made the same point.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> about the death of R.J. Valentine's cousin Daniel Lane in
> Waterbury, Connecticut.

Must. read. more. slowly. (Thought I was politely overlooking the fact
that you'd gotten the date of the story wrong, since in any case it
took place before mercury-vapour lamps.)
Nick Spalding - 02 Nov 2006 14:20 GMT
Marius Hancu wrote, in <Wc72h.58614$H9.593746@wagner.videotron.net>
on Wed, 01 Nov 2006 15:11:38 -0500:

> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 283
> -----

What it brings to my mind is the lamp standards along the Victoria
Embankment in London with their dolphin ornaments.
<http://www.ribapix.com/index.php?a=indexes&s=item&key=IYToxOntpOjA7czoxNDoiTGFtc
CBzdGFuZGFyZHMiO30=&pg=3
>
or <http://tinyurl.com/ymlhro>
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Nick Spalding

 
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