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reading him out of heaven

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Marius Hancu - 02 Nov 2006 14:31 GMT
Hello:

Does "to read someone out of heaven" mean "to exclude him from heaven?"
This must originate in some biblical texts, I assume ...

----
[Billy finds his son with Drew Preston]

And I have now more than just one more thing to tell, and I have saved
it for last because it is the fount of my memories, the event that
doesn't exonerate the boy I was but may delay for a moment reading him
out of heaven ...

E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 321
-----

Thank you.
Marius Hancu
Donna Richoux - 02 Nov 2006 15:21 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 321
> -----
MW11 has this, with no explanation of its history or circumstances:

    2 : to expel from an organization or group

Aha, you can find examples by Googling on this:

 <"was read out of" congregation>

I think it is a post-Biblical development.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Marius Hancu - 02 Nov 2006 15:34 GMT
Thank you, Donna.
Peter Duncanson - 02 Nov 2006 19:16 GMT
>> Hello:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
>I think it is a post-Biblical development.

The phrase suggests that a person in authority is reading out loud a
formal notice of expulsion.
Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Pat Durkin - 02 Nov 2006 16:58 GMT
> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> E. L. Doctorow, Billy Bathgate, p. 321

Reading one out of the army (list of officers, etc.) is an old-fashioned
way of discharging with dishonor.

However, there is the predestination tradition that states that the
names of all the "Saved" (Latter Day Saints, for example, or some
Baptists etc) are written in a book.  Some believers in the tradition
"know" who they are, while others "know" that we are not to "know".

Thus "reading out of heaven" may be a reference to that belief,
indicating that names can be stricken off (crossed off or erased) from a
list.

A simpler idea of the traditional book is that in which some angel, or
St. Peter, with marks showing the good and the bad in our lives.  Upon
our deaths, (or on Judgement Day), as we approach the Pearly Gates, the
marks are summed up and Judgement is rendered, and the gates are opened,
or not.
Marius Hancu - 02 Nov 2006 19:23 GMT
> Reading one out of the army (list of officers, etc.) is an old-fashioned
> way of discharging with dishonor.

I understand.

> However, there is the predestination tradition that states that the
> names of all the "Saved" (Latter Day Saints, for example, or some
> Baptists etc) are written in a book.  Some believers in the tradition
> "know" who they are, while others "know" that we are not to "know".

I was thinking along these lines myself.

Thanks.
Marius Hancu
 
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