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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006BrE: the man who calls for Carter Paterson
Hello: In BrE, does this "the man who calls for" mean "the man who answers the name of/whose name is?" Is it still in current usage? -------- "-of if she had wanted to marry the man who calls for Carter Paterson, I should have said the same." E. M. Foster, Howard's End, p. 14 -------- BTW, I don't think it means "the man who visits us on behalf of ... ." Thanks. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > BTW, I don't think it means "the man who visits us on behalf of ... ." No, you were right when you had that train of thought. "Carter, Paterson" was founded 1860 and became a major London delivery service. The speaker is saying something like "I don't care if she married the milkman." Any random, unsuitable guy. Someone from the UK will have to answer whether this use of "calls for" is still current.  SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: > > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Someone from the UK will have to answer whether this use of "calls for" > is still current. It's not, although it's understandable if one knows that it's from an elderly novel. Few people call, these days. A man calls for the Royal Mail most days, and a boy calls for the newsagent, but that's about it. In our road of 28 homes, only one has the milk delivered. SignatureDavid ===== >Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: >> Someone from the UK will have to answer whether this use of "calls for" >> is still current. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Royal Mail most days, and a boy calls for the newsagent, but that's >about it. In our road of 28 homes, only one has the milk delivered. But I don't think that in either case those would be described as "calling for", which in the Forster example is more of less "on behalf of". You wouldn't say "a man called for the Royal Mail". You might, if of a certain age, say "the postman called"; you'd be more likely to say "the postman came". A chap rang our doorbell the other day and wanted to sign us up for buying fish from a delivery service, and I might at a pinch have said "a man called for a fish company", but I'd have been far more likely to say "from a fish company". There's a subtle shift in social and employee relations hidden in that apparently marginal difference. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com> had it: > >Donna Richoux <trio@euronet.nl> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > if of a certain age, say "the postman called"; you'd be more likely to > say "the postman came". Indeed. I was attempting to be mildly humorous. My point was intended to be that we don't get home deliveries in the same number which the middle class Edwardian household might have seen as normal. SignatureDavid ===== >Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >intended to be that we don't get home deliveries in the same number >which the middle class Edwardian household might have seen as normal. Ah, sorry. Very true. No baker, butcher, cats'-meat man, rag-and-bone man, knife-grinder, onion-seller, Passengers' Luggage in Advance person. Not even the Vicar. On the other hand we do get the Jehovah's Witnesses, the lads with dubious pasts trying to sell dusters and brushes, the advertising-leaflet-deliverers, and the carriers who drop off whatever one's ordered on-line. And we still have the dustman, the window-cleaner, and the boys next door wanting their ball back. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com> had it: > >Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > have the dustman, the window-cleaner, and the boys next door wanting > their ball back. Ah, yes, we have three types of dustman now. The black one, the blue one and the newly-minted green one. But they have different frequencies - this is so confusing that we have to write the appropriate colours on the calendar. The religious seem to have given up on this middle class pagan enclave. I can't remember the last time an elderly couple (man wearing a hat, which is suspicious in itself) came to the door to ask if I want to talk about Jesus. We've never had the JWs here although they exist in the area as there were some at school with Children. Similarly the dodgy lads with grimy pieces of paper identifying them as drug addicts, selling the very worst dish cloths money can buy for 10 times the cost of a decent dish cloth at Morrisons. They've pushed off to other areas. The houses here are too far apart and people far less likely to buy this stuff, so they can presumably do better business elsewhere. OTOH, I have had a knife grinder at the door recently, although she was driving a Mitsubishi Shogun or something similar. I have a standard answer: "I don't buy anything at the door". As I shut the door, she was shouting "But I'm not selling anything", which was strange as she'd just offered to sharpen my scissors. We do get the occasional Eastern-European, flogging artwork. The Liberals put a leaflet through the door a few times each year, and there's some sort of church newsletter but it seems to be mostly focused on mother and toddler groups, so it's not of significant interest to us. SignatureDavid ===== > Wood Avens <woodavens@askjennison.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > frequencies - this is so confusing that we have to write the > appropriate colours on the calendar. The new green sack for garden refuse arrived a couple of weeks ago with a helpful multi-coloured calendar showing us when it would be emptied. We are in the purple group, which is quite confusing. At the moment the other two collections are still weekly and on the same day but that will no doubt change with the promised arrival of wheelie bins. > The religious seem to have given up on this middle class pagan > enclave. I can't remember the last time an elderly couple (man > wearing a hat, which is suspicious in itself) came to the door to ask > if I want to talk about Jesus. We've never had the JWs here although > they exist in the area as there were some at school with Children. We have fewer JWs than we used to. I am far more kindly disposed towards them than I used to be since one managed an emergency repair on Husband's glasses at Miami airport. > Similarly the dodgy lads with grimy pieces of paper identifying them > as drug addicts, selling the very worst dish cloths money can buy for > 10 times the cost of a decent dish cloth at Morrisons. They've > pushed off to other areas. The houses here are too far apart and > people far less likely to buy this stuff, so they can presumably do > better business elsewhere. We still get quite a few of those. > OTOH, I have had a knife grinder at the door recently, although she > was driving a Mitsubishi Shogun or something similar. I have a > standard answer: "I don't buy anything at the door". As I shut the > door, she was shouting "But I'm not selling anything", which was > strange as she'd just offered to sharpen my scissors. We get regular visits from garden contractors, tree fellers, roofers and knife grinders. Window cleaners are in very short supply, though. > We do get the occasional Eastern-European, flogging artwork. The > Liberals put a leaflet through the door a few times each year, and > there's some sort of church newsletter but it seems to be mostly > focused on mother and toddler groups, so it's not of significant > interest to us. We get church newsletters by the bucketload and Neighbourhood Watch scare leaflets (although these have started coming by email recently) and leaflets from local aromatherapists,chiropractors, Indian and Chinese restaurants. Conservatives seem to have given up on us but Labour and Liberal newsletters come regularly and canvassers at election time. We get occasional visits from salespeople wanting us to subscribe to the local evening paper. We used to get ladies wanting us to order massive catalogues from Littlewoods etc. The local Betterware representative leaves a catalogue every month. And there's the monthly visit from the man who sells tickets for the local hospice lottery. And then there are the meter readers who don't realise that the meters are on the outside walls. Last weekend we had two young men wanting us to sign a petition about the war in Iraq. Working at home, I get quite a lot of interruptions. I've stopped to answer the door twice while typing this. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > Working at home, I get quite a lot of interruptions. I've stopped to > answer the door twice while typing this. I think you are in a more cosmopolitan thoroughfare. I work at home about three days each week and I can't remember the last time somebody came to the door during the day. It was probably the gypsy lady in the Shogun - that must have been in June. SignatureDavid ===== > LFS <laura@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> had it: > >>Working at home, I get quite a lot of interruptions. I've stopped to >>answer the door twice while typing this. > > I think you are in a more cosmopolitan thoroughfare. Hardly. A little cul-de-sac, tucked away, which visitors, even locals, often find difficult to locate. I work at home > about three days each week and I can't remember the last time > somebody came to the door during the day. It was probably the gypsy > lady in the Shogun - that must have been in June. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Ah, yes, we have three types of dustman now. The black one, the blue >> one and the newly-minted green one. But they have different [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >other two collections are still weekly and on the same day but that will >no doubt change with the promised arrival of wheelie bins. Labour tried to switch us to fortnightly general refuse collections but it was so unpopular that they lost the election and the Liberals, who had the plurality, changed back to weekly. I get a weekly dose of satisfaction if I managed to get the bins and bags out at the right time. It is of course, a matter of principle to fill the green bags and if a collection goes by without putting out full bags it is a cause of dissatisfaction. However for the past couple of times I've taken pity on the collectors and filled the bags only to the point where I can still lift them - acorns are so heavy. The main advantage of wheelie bins seems to be the reduction in the urban fox population. They presumably reduce the number of rats as well. >> The religious seem to have given up on this middle class pagan >> enclave. I can't remember the last time an elderly couple (man [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >them than I used to be since one managed an emergency repair on >Husband's glasses at Miami airport. A long time since we've seen JWs too. Maybe they have all taken up Scientology instead. Is it an urban legend that the number of JWs now exceeds their estimate of the capacity of heaven - they might not be so keen to increase the numbers if that is the case. >> OTOH, I have had a knife grinder at the door recently, although she >> was driving a Mitsubishi Shogun or something similar. I have a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >We get regular visits from garden contractors, tree fellers, roofers and >knife grinders. Window cleaners are in very short supply, though. Around here, too. But the compost ladies (that's what they call themselves) are welcome. Apart from compost they offer a range of other services, such as potting up. We don't get many of the other kinds of visitor. I think it may be our gravel drive, I observe that it seems to give the uninvited a much greater feeling of intrusion onto foreign territory than ashphalt, and long may it stay that way. (However a previous owner of our house inadvertently left the door on the latch while she had a bath and found a leafleter had mistaken it for multi-occupied, entered the house and put a leaflet under each of the doors.) Mike Page > > Labour tried to switch us to fortnightly general refuse > collections but it was so unpopular that they lost the election [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > collectors and filled the bags only to the point where I can > still lift them - acorns are so heavy. Our instructions are very clear: if the bags are overfilled, they will not be touched. > The main advantage of wheelie bins seems to be the reduction in > the urban fox population. They presumably reduce the number of > rats as well. Maybe, but if they are only emptied every other week the fly population is likely to increase. And the foxes will have lots of time to learn to push them over. [..] Is it an urban legend that the number of > JWs now exceeds their estimate of the capacity of heaven - they > might not be so keen to increase the numbers if that is the case. They have estimated the capacity of Heaven? Is that part of an attempt to prove that only JWs will be admitted? The R4 programme in which Andy Hamilton played the Devil trying to deal with overcrowding in Hell was very funny. [..] > We don't get many of the other kinds of visitor. I think it may > be our gravel drive, I observe that it seems to give the > uninvited a much greater feeling of intrusion onto foreign > territory than ashphalt, and long may it stay that way. We, too, have a gravel drive and much appreciate the advance warning of visitors that it provides. The postman (who sings operatic arias in Italian) persists in riding across it: in consequence some of the gravel is heaped up into small dunes (Obaue: can you have dunes of anything but sand?) which makes arriving at our front door rather like struggling across a pebbly beach. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) Mike Page wrote, in <454b3f40.1313966109@news.cable.ntlworld.com> on Fri, 03 Nov 2006 13:16:19 GMT: > The main advantage of wheelie bins seems to be the reduction in > the urban fox population. I don't regard that as an advantage. I liked having a family of foxes living in my garden. They were there for three or four years and disappeared when we got the wheelie bins. > They presumably reduce the number of > rats as well. Rats have never been a problem around my house. SignatureNick Spalding >OTOH, I have had a knife grinder at the door recently, although she >was driving a Mitsubishi Shogun or something similar. I have a >standard answer: "I don't buy anything at the door". As I shut the >door, she was shouting "But I'm not selling anything", which was >strange as she'd just offered to sharpen my scissors. Ah ha! She was not selling a product. She was offering a service for a fee. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> had it: > >OTOH, I have had a knife grinder at the door recently, although she > >was driving a Mitsubishi Shogun or something similar. I have a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Ah ha! She was not selling a product. She was offering a service for > a fee. Not a product, certainly, but she was selling a service. I almost reopened the door to accept her kind offer of a free service. SignatureDavid ===== >Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Not a product, certainly, but she was selling a service. I almost >reopened the door to accept her kind offer of a free service. Ahem. In physical terms the scissor-sharpening-service would supply you with a negative product. The scissors would be lighter after her skilled grinding. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > The religious seem to have given up on this middle class pagan > enclave. I can't remember the last time an elderly couple (man > wearing a hat, which is suspicious in itself) came to the door to ask > if I want to talk about Jesus. We've never had the JWs here although > they exist in the area as there were some at school with Children. Yesterday a woman tucked a flier advertising her religion under my front door. I saw her walk down the block, and mine was the only house she stopped at. Should I be concerned? SignatureSML >Yesterday a woman tucked a flier advertising her religion under my front >door. I saw her walk down the block, and mine was the only house she >stopped at. Should I be concerned? Perhaps everyone else in your block is already a member of her religion. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > >Yesterday a woman tucked a flier advertising her religion under my front > >door. I saw her walk down the block, and mine was the only house she > >stopped at. Should I be concerned? > > Perhaps everyone else in your block is already a member of her > religion. Then yes, I should be concerned. SignatureSML ... } Yesterday a woman tucked a flier advertising her religion under my front } door. I saw her walk down the block, and mine was the only house she } stopped at. Should I be concerned? No, they're generally harmless and have to log their hours on the job. But look on the outside door frame on the hinge side and see if you have some letters written in pencil. I had all sorts of things in several different hands on mine back in the Laurelplex (FLMAIA). Not all of mine were related to religion. I recognized some of them as gang marks, and I think I may have been under the protection of the neighborhood gang. Signaturerjv > The religious seem to have given up on this middle class pagan > enclave. I can't remember the last time an elderly couple (man > wearing a hat, which is suspicious in itself) came to the door to ask > if I want to talk about Jesus. We've never had the JWs here although > they exist in the area as there were some at school with Children. The JWs called here just three nights ago. OldBloke went and opened the door and a young man gave him a flyer, said "we're giving out a message, here you are" and left. We were a little stunned. >> Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >Someone from the UK will have to answer whether this use of "calls for" >is still current. Not in my experience. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >BTW, I don't think it means "the man who visits us on behalf of ... ." It almopst certainly does mean "the man who calls on behalf of Carter Paterson". Carter Paterson was a well-knwn firm of carriers, and would be familiar to E M Forster's readers. The "man who calls for" CP is the man who comes to the door to collect or deliver whatever's being sent via Carter Paterson. And the presumption is that this man is not of a class which would be considered acceptable for her to marry. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > It almopst certainly does mean "the man who calls on behalf of Carter > Paterson". Carter Paterson was a well-knwn firm of carriers, and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is not of a class which would be considered acceptable for her to > marry. Thank you, ladies. Marius Hancu I think the original question has been thoroughly answered, but it does bring up the pondian difference in the use of the verb "to call". For many years, I was confused by Americans saying they would "call", when I knew they were nowhere near my house. Of course, they meant that they would make a *telephone call*. But in BrE usage, "call" on its own (with no mention of the word "telephone") always meant to call *personally*, i.e to visit. Otherwise, you'd say "I'll 'phone". I think this usage is starting to change, however, and I now hear more (usually younger) BrE speakers saying they will "call", meaning by telephone. Mike M > I think the original question has been thoroughly answered, but it does > bring up the pondian difference in the use of the verb "to call". For [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (with no mention of the word "telephone") always meant to call > *personally*, i.e to visit. Otherwise, you'd say "I'll 'phone". That's more or less true. But lots of people still say "I'll call you" (i.e. with the "you" objective pronoun), in which case it definitely means by telephone. Actually, in this context "call", "[tele]phone", and "ring" all mean the same thing, with varying degrees of formality. > I think this usage is starting to change, however, and I now hear more > (usually younger) BrE speakers saying they will "call", meaning by > telephone. Context is all, of course. The OP's question has been answered already. However, by the 1920s/1930s (with the advent of the car, perhaps) I would guess the "calls for" expression was dated. In the between-the-wars era (and a little later), such people had evolved into salesmen, and the expression in BrE was "travels" (rather than "calls"). One comes across the phrase "so-and-so travels for [Acme Enterprises] in [whatever commodity]" - hence the, no doubt apocryphal, story of the man who "travels in ladies underwear". Later still, they were just "reps", of course. Regards Jonathan |
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