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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006The pleasure of incision
I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or "ision" always have the "s" pronounced as "zh" (like the "j" in French "je"), whilst those ending in "ssure" or "ition" always have the "s" pronounced as "sh" (as in "fish"). Examples: pleasure, leisure, treasure; incision, decision, vision; petition, inhibition, insertion; fissure; pressure Do you agree with me, or can you find exceptions? I'm aware that some will pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", etc., but I'm expecting that my groupings as above will hold for you too. Regards, Baboon. On 02 Nov 2006, Design Baboon wrote > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which > are consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Examples: pleasure, leisure, treasure; > incision, decision, vision; There was a distinctive English pronunciation of "television" -- Frankie Howerd used it -- which used a trisyllabic pronunciation for the "vision" suffix. The "s" sound in that was, if I recall correctly, much closer to a "z" sound than a "zh" (but not a "sh").  SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 02 Nov 2006, Design Baboon wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The "s" sound in that was, if I recall correctly, much closer to a > "z" sound than a "zh" (but not a "sh"). Hmm, that muddies the waters. Very hyperlect though, which dear old Frankie himself wasn't - he probably used it for comic effect. Baboon. On 02 Nov 2006, Design Baboon wrote >> On 02 Nov 2006, Design Baboon wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> The "s" sound in that was, if I recall correctly, much closer >> to a "z" sound than a "zh" (but not a "sh"). > Hmm, that muddies the waters. Very hyperlect though, which dear > old Frankie himself wasn't - he probably used it for comic > effect. Hmmm....my gut reaction is that he didn't do it for for comic effect. Howerd is the one who springs to mind, but I'm fairly certain that I heard other performers of that era use the same pronunciation (which also invariably stressed the "vi-" syllable). SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 02 Nov 2006, Design Baboon wrote > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I heard other performers of that era use the same pronunciation > (which also invariably stressed the "vi-" syllable). Probably one of those language-change things. I'm noticing that younger people tend to pronounce polysyllabic words with the stress on the second syllable, whereas I stress the first: e.g. ManDATory/MANdatory; inVENTory/INventory Then again, Tony Blair is older than me (I'm 49), and he says manDATory too. Reminds me a bit of the CONtroversy/conTROversy debate I heard in the 1960s. Baboon. > Probably one of those language-change things. I'm noticing that younger > people tend to pronounce polysyllabic words with the stress on the second [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then again, Tony Blair is older than me (I'm 49), and he says manDATory too. > Reminds me a bit of the CONtroversy/conTROversy debate I heard in the 1960s. Bit of a change of subject, but as you've started it, the one that really annoys me is "CONtribute, DIStribute" or even worse, and regrettably equally common "contriBUTE, distriBUTE". I confess that I use both pronunciations of "mandatory" and "inventory" almost indiscriminately. SignatureRob Bannister > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or > "ision" always have the "s" pronounced as "zh" (like the "j" in French > "je"), whilst those ending in "ssure" or "ition" always have the "s" > pronounced as "sh" (as in "fish"). In the words ending in 'tion', it is the 't' that is pronounced 'sh'. Perdition, extradition, permission, intromission, etc. > Examples: pleasure, leisure, treasure; > incision, decision, vision; [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Baboon. > > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > In the words ending in 'tion', it is the 't' that is pronounced 'sh'. Thanks, I had meant to add that. No wonder I'm called Baboon. Baboon. > Thanks, I had meant to add that. No wonder I'm called Baboon. Baboons are considered to be very intelligent creatures. Just their hind ends look disgusting. Regards, ----- WB. > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Baboon. "Censure", "cocksure" and "unsure" all have "s" prounounced as "sh", but the last two are derivatives of "sure", so maybe don't really count. I think that some people pronounce the "s" in "tonsure" as "s". I can't think of any exceptions to your "ision"/"ition" rules. > > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > I think that some people pronounce the "s" in "tonsure" as "s". So I can redefine my rule now - it holds only if the sibilant is occurring after a vowel, otherwise we'd expect a "sh" sound. The "tonsure" pronunciation you mention is what I'd refer to as hyperlect. Most ordinary bods would pronounce it as "sh". > I can't think of any exceptions to your "ision"/"ition" rules. Holds good so far then. Baboon. >>> I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are >>> consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > So I can redefine my rule now - it holds only if the sibilant is > occurring after a vowel, otherwise we'd expect a "sh" sound. Except for 'cynosure' SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > >>> I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > >>> consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Except for 'cynosure' Well spotted. I noticed that this is the first three syllable word mentioned. Could it be that the secondary stress falling on the final syllable could accounted for this? In the words of two syllables, the final syllables is unstressed. I'll have to do a search now for "-ure" words of more than 2 syllables. Baboon. >>> So I can redefine my rule now - it holds only if the sibilant is >>> occurring after a vowel, otherwise we'd expect a "sh" sound. >> Except for 'cynosure' > Well spotted. I noticed that this is the first three syllable word > mentioned. Could it be that the secondary stress falling on the final > syllable could accounted for this? In the words of two syllables, > the final syllables is unstressed. I'll have to do a search now for > "-ure" words of more than 2 syllables. I can see where this is headed. You're going to end up with one of those "i before e, except when it isn't" rules. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. <snip> > I think that some people pronounce the "s" in "tonsure" as "s". In fact, thinking about it, I think the same is true of "censure". I can visualise some people pronouncing the "s" as "s"... > <snip> > > > I think that some people pronounce the "s" in "tonsure" as "s". > > In fact, thinking about it, I think the same is true of "censure". I > can visualise some people pronouncing the "s" as "s"... They're what I'd call the posh ones. You'd never find them pronouncing it as "z" or "zh", though? Not in Britain at least... Baboon. ><snip> > >> I think that some people pronounce the "s" in "tonsure" as "s". > >In fact, thinking about it, I think the same is true of "censure". I >can visualise some people pronouncing the "s" as "s"... And I'll bet serious money that Katy (Wood Avens) distinguishes between "fissure" and "fisher". I think even I -- RP, we ain't got it -- might. SignatureRoss Howard >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >between "fissure" and "fisher". I think even I -- RP, we ain't got it >-- might. I rather think Katy Edgcombe might, too. But I've been sitting here like a lemon, saying "fissure" and "fisher" to myself, and I think the distinction I make is less in the "ss" bit than in the "ure" bit. The "ss" come out somewhere between ss and sh, but the "ure" is decidedly not "er". Dammit, though, it's a word I hardly ever use. I've probably said it more times in the last five minutes than I have in the last fifty years. So I can't be expected to be a reliable witness, even of my own pronunciation. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > years. So I can't be expected to be a reliable witness, even of my > own pronunciation. Exactly how I felt. If I heard them used as rhymes, I would consider them false rhymes, but I've just about convinced myself that they sound the same when I say them, whatever I /think/ I'm saying. SignatureRob Bannister >And I'll bet serious money that Katy (Wood Avens) distinguishes >between "fissure" and "fisher". I think even I -- RP, we ain't got it >-- might. I do, but it's more the second vowel than the "s": ['fISu@] (or ['fISju@] or ['fIsju@]) vs ['fIS@]. David >><snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > between "fissure" and "fisher". I think even I -- RP, we ain't got it > -- might. That was a hard one. I really thought I distinguished between the two with a slight lip rounding for "fissure", but after saying them over a few times, I think they must be homophones. SignatureRob Bannister > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or > "ision" always have the "s" pronounced as "zh" (like the "j" in French > "je"), whilst those ending in "ssure" or "ition" always have the "s" > pronounced as "sh" (as in "fish"). You've already improved your rule for "sure". I think you can extend the rule to any final "tion" (in every word I can think of it follows a vowel, c, or p) with the exception of "cation", on which more than one person has come to grief. SignatureJerry Friedman > > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the rule to any final "tion" (in every word I can think of it follows a > vowel, c, or p) Sounds good... > with the exception of "cation", on which more than one > person has come to grief. Please explain. Baboon. >>> I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are >>> consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> it follows a vowel, c, or p) > Sounds good... Ooh, dunno: "mention", "portion"; and "torsion" and "emulsion"("revulsion", etc.), which break the "s+i=zh" (/ s+j=Z /) rule. No rule without exceptions, and that's a rule. [...] > > > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > > > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > the rule to any final "tion" (in every word I can think of it follows a > > vowel, c, or p) Thanks to CDB for some words I couldn't think of. > Sounds good... > > > with the exception of "cation", on which more than one > > person has come to grief. > Please explain. "Cation" (a positive ion in chemistry) is pronounced /'k&t,aIAn/ (in my accent), "cat ion". Some people, especially if they don't connect it with "ion", quite reasonably assume it rhymes with "nation" or "ration". SignatureJerry Friedman > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Do you agree with me, or can you find exceptions? There's a trivial counterexample to your first assertion. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When correctly viewed, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | Everything is lewd. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |I could tell you things | about Peter Pan, kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |and the Wizard of Oz-- (650)857-7572 | there's a dirty old man! | Tom Lehrer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > There's a trivial counterexample to your first assertion. I'm not afraid of trivia. Continue? Baboon. >> > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are >> > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> There's a trivial counterexample to your first assertion. > I'm not afraid of trivia. Continue? There's a four-letter word ending in "sure" that doesn't have that property. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |A specification which calls for 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |network-wide use of encryption, but Palo Alto, CA 94304 |invokes the Tooth Fairy to handle |key distribution, is a useless kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |farce. (650)857-7572 | Henry Spencer http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ Evan Kirshenbaum filted: >>> > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are >>> > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >There's a four-letter word ending in "sure" that doesn't have that >property. Somewhat less trivially, there's a pair of words just two-letters longer that may or may not by synonyms.... To refute another limb of the same conjecture, I've heard "fissure" pronounced with the Frenchical "zh" sound by plenty of people; for just as many, to be sure, it's a homophone of "fisher"...the number who similarly match "assure" and "azure" is vanishingly small....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", etc., but > I'm expecting that my groupings as above will hold for you too. "Erasure" has the "fish" sound. -- Mike Hardy > > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > "Erasure" has the "fish" sound. -- Mike Hardy I pronounce it with a "zh" sound", exactly like "pleasure". >>"Erasure" has the "fish" sound. -- Mike Hardy > > I pronounce it with a "zh" sound", exactly like "pleasure". I thought everyone did. Michael's pronunciation makes me think of something to do with Asia. And that is another funny word: "Asia" and especially "Asian" seem to be pronounced randomly with sh and zh, even by the same speaker. SignatureRob Bannister >I thought everyone did. Michael's pronunciation [of "erasure"] makes >me think of something to do with Asia. And that is another funny >word: "Asia" and especially "Asian" seem to be pronounced randomly >with sh and zh, even by the same speaker. I don't hear that among locals here, but I do hear it on the BBC. As for "erasure", for me and AFAIK everyone I know, that would be /,i'rEiSR/ (or for some, /-SyuR/). -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > I'm trying to locate those few parts of English spelling which are > consistent. I've come to the conclusion that words ending in "sure" or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Do you agree with me, or can you find exceptions? censure, cynosure, ensure, insure -would you count 'sure' itself? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > aware that some will > pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", etc., Yep. Brian Sewell. Mike M > > aware that some will > > pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", etc., > > Yep. Brian Sewell. He's well OTT on pronunciation. I expect he pronounces "Russia" as 3 syllables, whereas I just say "Rusha". Baboon. >>> aware that some will >>> pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", etc., [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Baboon. One common pronunciation which does infringe the OP's rule is "rescission". I always try to pronounce it with a "sh" - which I believe I how it should be pronounced because of the -ss-. It's quite hard to say in that form, and is frequently pronounced with a "zh". I suppose "scissors" shouldn't have the "z" sound for the same reason - but that would be ridiculous. Regards Jonathan > >>> aware that some will > >>> pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", etc., [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I how it should be pronounced because of the -ss-. It's quite hard to > say in that form, and is frequently pronounced with a "zh". I had to look that one up! I too would find it hard to pronounce with an "sh", yet I can't think of any logical reason why I should, as I pronounce the very similar word "recession" with an "sh", which is of course correct. Maybe the linguists can tell us why that's harder to do with "rescission"? > I suppose "scissors" shouldn't have the "z" sound for the same reason - > but that would be ridiculous. Agreed. The sooner it's respelt as sizzers the better. Apparently it used to be spelt as "sissors" until some time in the 1600s when some one decided to insert the "c". I'm becoming ever more interested in the vagaries of our spelling. Typos apart, I'd rate myself an ace speller, but that's just down to memory. I'm becoming more aware of how illogical our spelling is and the difficulties this causes for the millions learning English as a foreign language. One Polish woman I know always pronounces "work" as "walk". She's obviously learnt it phonetically. However, I was shocked when a Ghanaian acquaintance complained to me that her boyfriend sh.ts on her at weekends. I eventually realised she meant to say "cheats". That's one mispronunciation that CAN'T be blamed on our spelling! Baboon. ["Rescission"] > I had to look that one up! Abstract noun from "rescind" - a word beloved by lawyers, of whom I am one. > However, I was shocked when a Ghanaian > acquaintance complained to me that her boyfriend sh.ts on her at weekends. In a sense, he does. Regards Jonathan > ["Rescission"] > > > I had to look that one up! > > Abstract noun from "rescind" - a word beloved by lawyers, of whom I am one. The site I visited noted it was a legal use. "Novation" was one I recently came across at work while hunting down software licences to be transferred to another company. > > However, I was shocked when a Ghanaian > > acquaintance complained to me that her boyfriend sh.ts on her at weekends. > > In a sense, he does. Figuratively speaking... Baboon. >>>> aware that some will >>>> pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I suppose "scissors" shouldn't have the "z" sound for the same > reason - but that would be ridiculous. In the US there is a fairly common pronunciation of "fission" with the "zh" sound that appears to have been influenced by "fusion". Until recently, most people were only familiar with the two words in discussions of nuclear science. (Hmm, can we blame "nucular" on the science teachers?) > In the US there is a fairly common pronunciation of "fission" with the > "zh" sound that appears to have been influenced by "fusion". That's the case in the UK also. > Until recently, most people were only familiar with the two words in > discussions of nuclear science. (Hmm, can we blame "nucular" on the > science teachers?) Possibly, but "nucular" is an odd mis-pronunciation, in that it's actually harder to say than the correct version. Science has other words which are mis-pronounced by analogy. "Dissect" is one - it gets pronounced "die-sect" because "bisect" is (correctly) so pronounced. Regards Jonathan > >>>> aware that some will > >>>> pronounce "leisure" as "lez-yoor", and pressure as "press-yoor", [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > In the US there is a fairly common pronunciation of "fission" with the > "zh" sound that appears to have been influenced by "fusion". Maybe by "vision" too. Baboon. |
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