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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006BrE: the dear knows what will happen
Hello: In BrE, is "the dear" here an euphemism? (for the devil, perhaps). ----- [Helen, describing the Wilcox house] It isn't going to be what we expected. It is old and little, and altogether delightful--red brick. We can scarcely pack in as it is, and the dear knows what will happen when Paul (younger son) arrives tomorrow. E. M. Foster, Howard's End, p. 7 ----- BTW, "pack in," does it mean "able to fit in the given space?" Thank you. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > E. M. Foster, Howard's End, p. 7 > ----- I would have said that it was a typo for "the dear Lord", but googling shows 300 hits for "the dear knows". So, turning to the OED, they cite "dear knows" back to 1805 1805 E. CAVANAGH _Let_. 4 Oct. in Londonderry & Hyde _Russian Jrnls. of M. & C. Wilmot_ (1934) III. 190, I never seen such a good Lady..nor so generous I've reason to say dear knows. The definite article first shows up there about 1915: 1914-15 JOYCE _Portrait of Artist_ (1916) v. 203 The dear knows you might try to be in time for your lectures. They opine: C. Used interjectionally. _Dear_!, _Oh dear_!, _Dear, dear_!, _Dear me_!: exclamations expressing surprise, astonishment, anxiety, distress, regret, sympathy, or other emotion. _dear bless_, _help_, _love_, _save us_ (_you_): ejaculations of astonishment, usually implying an appeal for higher help (_obs_. or _dial_.). _dear knows_! goodness knows, Heaven knows (_I_ do not). These uses with a verb suggest that dear represents or implies a fuller _dear Lord!_ Thus _dear knows!_ is exactly equivalent to _the Lord_ or _God knows!_; cf. also the elliptical _Save us!_ _Help us!_ _Keep us!_ and the like; but the historical evidence is not conclusive. (A derivation from It. _dio_, God, as conjectured by some, resting upon mod. Eng. pronunciation of _dea_(_r_, finds no support in the history of the word.) The earliest citation for this entire sense is for "O dear", from 1694.  SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |This isn't good. I've seen good, 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |and it didn't look anything like Palo Alto, CA 94304 |this. | MST3K kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > The definite article first shows up there about 1915: > > 1914-15 JOYCE _Portrait of Artist_ (1916) v. 203 The dear knows > you might try to be in time for your lectures. Interesting, same period. Thank you. Marius Hancu > Hello: > > In BrE, is "the dear" here an euphemism? > (for the devil, perhaps). ... Evan has answered your question, so I'll just say I learned the expression from Frost's poem "The Rose Family" <http://quotations.about.com/cs/poemlyrics/a/The_Rose_Family.htm>. > BTW, "pack in," does it mean "able to fit in the given space?" I think so. SignatureJerry Friedman > > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > expression from Frost's poem "The Rose Family" > <http://quotations.about.com/cs/poemlyrics/a/The_Rose_Family.htm>. That site seems to misquote the third line. Other sites such as <http://www.floridata.com/tracks/misc/plant_names.cfm> give it as "The theory now goes", which scans correctly. SignatureJerry Friedman >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >E. M. Foster, Howard's End, p. 7 The phrase I'm familiar with is "dear knows". This is has the same meaning as "God knows" and "goodness knows". The version "the dear knows" has the same meaning but is less familiar to me. >----- > >BTW, "pack in," does it mean "able to fit in the given space?" Yes. [The house or cottage] is old and little, and altogether delightful--red brick. We can scarcely pack [ourselves and our belongings] in [to it] as it is, and the dear knows what will happen when Paul (younger son) arrives tomorrow. >Thank you. >Marius Hancu SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >meaning as "God knows" and "goodness knows". The version "the dear >knows" has the same meaning but is less familiar to me. I've only heard it with "the", and, I think, only from one source - the song "I Know Where I'm Going". Apparently an "old Scottish folk song"; I can't find any indication of a likely date, but I think it must be older than the OED's 1915. That line about "handsome, winsome Johnny" seems unlikely to be later than the 19th century. I must admit, I thought it was by Burns, but apparently not. About half of the online versions have "my dear knows" instead of "the dear knows", but I'm sure this is wrong. SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" >>> Hello: >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the online versions have "my dear knows" instead of "the dear knows", > but I'm sure this is wrong. I know where I'm going, And I know who's going with me. I know who I love, But the dear knows who I'll marry. Some say he's dark, Some say he's bonny, But the fairest of them all Is my handsome, winsome Johnny. I have stockings of silk, Shoes of the finest leather, Combs to bind my hair, And a ring for every finger. Feather beds are soft, Painted rooms are bonny, But I would leave them all To go with my love, Johnny. I know where I'm going, And I know who's going with me. I know who I love, But the dear knows who I'll marry. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > I know where I'm going, > And I know who's going with me. > I know who I love, > But the dear knows who I'll marry. I remember hearing this song when was a small boy, and I thought it was "The DEER knows who I'll marry". You can always trust an ungulate. Mike M > Feather beds are soft, > Painted rooms are bonny, > But I would leave them all > To go with my love, Johnny. I initially though it is "bony":-) Thank you for making me learn: -------- bonny 1 chiefly Britain : having a pleasing appearance: a of a person : attractive especially as suggesting health, charm, sweetness, and liveliness <as fair art thou, my bonny lass, so deep in love am I -- Robert Burns> b of a place : pleasant especially through the appeal of the mild, placid, and rural M-W Unabridged ------- Marius Hancu >>Feather beds are soft, >>Painted rooms are bonny, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > M-W Unabridged > ------- I'm familiar with that meaning, but doesn't "bonny" also indicate "plump", ie "fat", but in a not unpleasing way? SignatureRob Bannister >>> Feather beds are soft, >>> Painted rooms are bonny, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I'm familiar with that meaning, but doesn't "bonny" also indicate > "plump", ie "fat", but in a not unpleasing way? Yep - particularly of babies. Not very common these days. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <eifhkg$c7m$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>: >> I've only heard it with "the", and, I think, only from one source - >> the song "I Know Where I'm Going". Apparently an "old Scottish folk [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > etc. Mary O'Hara sings "black" at the end of line 5. A version brought out by a group called The Countrymen in the early 1960's gender-swapped the entire lyric - Johnny became Jenny despite the lack of rhyme. SignatureWarning: keel away from child for hot bulb Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > John Dean (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message > <eifhkg$c7m$1@news8.svr.pol.co.uk>: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Mary O'Hara sings "black" at the end of line 5. I remember the song from an old b&w film I saw when I was very young. No idea of the title; all I remember is the woman and a man in a small boat somewhere in Scotland, about to be sucked into a raging whirlpool. If I was that young, I probably hid under my seat at this point, but I suppose it could have been as late as the 50s. SignatureRob Bannister [snip] > I remember the song from an old b&w film I saw when I was very young. No > idea of the title; all I remember is the woman and a man in a small boat > somewhere in Scotland, about to be sucked into a raging whirlpool. If I > was that young, I probably hid under my seat at this point, but I > suppose it could have been as late as the 50s. I Know Where I'm Going! (1945) starring Roger Livesey and Wendy Hiller. Released in 1945 but you might have seen it later than that of course. Steve SignatureSteve Crook The Powell and Pressburger Appreciation Society http://www.powell-pressburger.org > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I Know Where I'm Going! (1945) starring Roger Livesey and Wendy Hiller. > Released in 1945 but you might have seen it later than that of course. This whole thing is another disaster I have to blame on AUE. After posting, I googled. I not only discovered the 1945 date, which fits with my memory of being fairly small at the time, but I've gone and bought the DVD. Amazon says it will arrive about the 4 december. SignatureRob Bannister > >>Hello: > >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the online versions have "my dear knows" instead of "the dear knows", > but I'm sure this is wrong. And the version I've heard (from a former colleague) has "the De'il knows", if I heard correctly. SignatureJerry Friedman Don Aitken wrote, in <65cmk2tif8clg6vat9d5ll9vnr30vg7rc2@4ax.com> on Fri, 03 Nov 2006 12:12:53 +0000: > >The phrase I'm familiar with is "dear knows". This is has the same > >meaning as "God knows" and "goodness knows". The version "the dear [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > the online versions have "my dear knows" instead of "the dear knows", > but I'm sure this is wrong. It was the inspiration for a Powell and Pressburger film of the same name, with Roger Livesey and Wendy Hiller. SignatureNick Spalding [snip] > I've only heard it with "the", and, I think, only from one source - > the song "I Know Where I'm Going". Apparently an "old Scottish folk [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -- > Don Aitken The film was set in Scotland, but the song is Irish traditional. There are quite a few variations on the song available, mainly by Irish folk singers or American Country acts like The Judds. Powell and Pressburger, the writers, directors & producers of the film 'I Know Where I'm Going!' (1945), could well have modified the lyrics to suit their story. They modified Chaucer's prologue from The Canterbury Tales for the opening of their 1944 film A Canterbury Tale. I have the sheet music that was sold in 1945 to go with the film. They used to do that sort of thing back then so that the family could stand around the piano and sing the songs from the film they'd just seen. That has the lyrics of the first verse as: I know where I'm going, And I know who's going with me. I know who I love, But the dear knows who I'll marry. and that's what it sounds like (to my ears) on the soundtrack. Don't go by the subtitles on the Criterion DVD. They have it as: I know where I'm going, And I know who's going with me. I know who I love, But the day knows who I'll marry. The DAY? Steve -- Steve Crook The Powell and Pressburger Appreciation Society http://www.powell-pressburger.org > [The house or cottage] is old and little, and altogether > delightful--red brick. We can scarcely pack [ourselves and our > belongings] in [to it] as it is, and the dear knows what will > happen when Paul (younger son) arrives tomorrow. Is the "to" in "[to it]" really necessary? Kind of surprised me ... Thank you all. Marius Hancu >>Hello: >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > meaning as "God knows" and "goodness knows". The version "the dear > knows" has the same meaning but is less familiar to me. I have a feeling that "the dear" does mean "the de'il" and was possibly chiefly Scottish, although one of my greatgrandfathers used it. I know where I'm going I know who's coming with me; La, la, la, la, la (forgotten that line) But the dear knows who I'll marry. I'm fairly certain that "the dear" is unrelated to the "dear" uses quoted by Evan. SignatureRob Bannister |
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