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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006BrE: Better that he had
Hello: Question: does "that" sometimes mean "if"? I think that in this context: "Better that he had [stolen those things]" means "Better if he had [stolen those things]" or "I'd rather he had [stolen those things]" but I'd like to have a confirmation. ---- [The ladies talk about an unexpected visitor which has just left. He did NOT steal anything, nor had he the intent, but he had the opportunity of doing so, in their over-cautious view.] But Helen cried: "Aunt Juley, how can you [accuse him of stealing]? I'd rather he _had_ been a thief and taken all the apostle spoons ..." "Why, he might have stolen the little Ricketts picture as well." "Better that he had," said Helen stoutly. "No, I agree with Aunt Juley," said Margaret. "I'd rather mistrust people than lose my little Ricketts. There are limits." E. M. Foster, Howard's End, p. 50 ---- Thanks for any hints. Marius Hancu > Question: does "that" sometimes mean "if"? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "I'd rather he had [stolen those things]" > but I'd like to have a confirmation. This is a deliberately archaic construction familiar from the King James Bible (e.g. "It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were drowned in the depth of the sea," Matthew 18:6) thus frequent in both speech and writing (at those dates when everyone knew the Bible.)  SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > This is a deliberately archaic construction > familiar from the King James Bible (e.g. "It were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > writing (at those dates when everyone knew > the Bible.) Indeed, it seems so. Thank you. Marius Hancu >Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Thanks for any hints. Margaret would be less dismayed if the apostle spoons were stolen than if the little Ricketts picture was stolen. I'm a bit baffled by "little Ricketts picture". A small painting by Charles Ricketts? SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > Margaret would be less dismayed if the apostle spoons were stolen than > if the little Ricketts picture was stolen. This I understand. However, perhaps pressing too much my point, does "that" ever signify "if"? > I'm a bit baffled by "little Ricketts picture". A small painting by > Charles Ricketts? Perhaps. Thanks. Marius Hancu >> Margaret would be less dismayed if the apostle spoons were stolen >> than if the little Ricketts picture was stolen. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > However, perhaps pressing too much my point, does "that" ever > signify "if"? [...] The clause beginning with "that" is the subject of a sentence with a lot of pieces missing.. "That he had [stolen those things] [would have been] better [than the present situation]." The effect is, as you say, about the same as that of a clause beginning with "if". But Don is quite right. The speaker didn't parse her sentence; she simply adapted a familiar pattern from the KJV. [Marius Hancu had quoted:] "Why, he might have stolen the little Ricketts picture as well." "Better that he had," said Helen stoutly. > The clause beginning with "that" is the subject of a sentence with a > lot of pieces missing.. "That he had [stolen those things] [would > have been] better [than the present situation]." The effect is, as > you say, about the same as that of a clause beginning with "if". But > Don is quite right. The speaker didn't parse her sentence; she > simply adapted a familiar pattern from the KJV. I must quibble about whether this is some sort of direct quote or copy of the KJV. I think that "better that" is a dated construction that we might happen to see in the KJV, but that doesn't mean someone speaking in 1910 was quoting the Bible. It wasn't about casting pearls before swine or flies in the ointment or something. It was ordinary English. Literaturepost has 313 results for "better that"; for example: It would be better that he should die with me than that he should live with his father (A. Bronte) I think it better that I, rather than yourself, should speak to the squire (E. Bulwer Lytton) Better that a thousand girls should be wedded where they would not than that such a thing should happen (H. Rider Haggard) Better that thousands should suffer than that a people should become a disintegrated mass (Conrad) it will be better that one should sit with Henry (Austen) SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > I must quibble about whether this is some sort of direct quote or copy > of the KJV. I think that "better that" is a dated construction that we [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > it will be better that one should sit with Henry > (Austen) You have a good point. The important thing for me is that is seems to require the conditional. Marius Hancu > [Marius Hancu had quoted:] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > It was ordinary English. Literaturepost has 313 results for "better > that"; for example: [examples] I don't disagree that the construction is common; if you'll check my post, you'll see that I spoke of adapting a pattern (from a body of text that was constantly before people of that time), not to quoting. >>>Margaret would be less dismayed if the apostle spoons were stolen >>>than if the little Ricketts picture was stolen. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Don is quite right. The speaker didn't parse her sentence; she > simply adapted a familiar pattern from the KJV. The full sentence might have been "It were better that he had stolen the spoons". I don't think "that" is exactly the same as "if", but the eventual meaning is the same. SignatureRob Bannister >> Margaret would be less dismayed if the apostle spoons were stolen >> than if the little Ricketts picture was stolen. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > However, perhaps pressing too much my point, does "that" ever signify > "if"? It is dangerous to stick one's neck out too far around here, so I'll just say "hardly ever". It is possible that there are some dialectal idioms somewhere which could be analysed that way. The construction you asked about is not normal in present-day English as far as I know. It looks like a fossil subjunctive to me, depending on an implied "It were better ..." like the example that Don posted. If that is right, then the "if"-ness is really coming from the elided verb, rather than the word "that". -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > Hello: > Question: does "that" sometimes mean "if"? No. "That" can be omitted, and the sentence means the same thing. The hypothetical is in the construction which can be read: (It would have been) better <statement in subjunctive>. > I think that in this context: > "Better that he had [stolen those things]" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "I'd rather he had [stolen those things]" > but I'd like to have a confirmation. > ---- > [The ladies talk about an unexpected visitor which has just left. He > did NOT steal anything, nor had he the intent, but he had the > opportunity of doing so, in their over-cautious view.] > But Helen cried: "Aunt Juley, how can you [accuse him of stealing]? > I'd rather he _had_ been a thief and taken all the apostle spoons ..." > "Why, he might have stolen the little Ricketts picture as well." > "Better that he had," said Helen stoutly. > "No, I agree with Aunt Juley," said Margaret. "I'd rather mistrust > people than lose my little Ricketts. There are limits." > E. M. Foster, Howard's End, p. 50 > ---- > Thanks for any hints. > Marius Hancu SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> Think like a man of action. Act like a man of thought. --Henri Bergson |
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