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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006BrE: Helen was drawn up short
Hello: Is "drawn up short," "shocked?" Or "brought to a halt?" Also, what's a "deadly?" ---- "Cake?" said Helen. "The big cake or the little deadlies? I'm afraid you thought my letter rather odd, but we'll explain--we aren't odd, really--not affected, really. We're over-expressive: that's all. " As a lady's lap-dog Leonard did not excel. He was not an Italian, still less a Frenchman, in whose blood there runs the very spirit of persiflage and of gracious repartee. His wit was the Cockney's; it opened no doors into imagination, and Helen was drawn up short by "The more a lady has to say, the better," administered waggishly. Howards End - E. M. Forster, p. 158 http://forster.thefreelibrary.com/Howards-End/16-1 ---- Thanks. Marius Hancu > Is "drawn up short," "shocked?" > Or "brought to a halt?" I'll present a bit of speculative theory that starts from this citation in OED2: 1689 T. R. View Govt. Europe 54 They undertook likewise to loosen his power, or tye it up short. My argument is that references to "up short" usually are in the context of constricting actions; eg: 1711 Addison Spect. No. 34 33 Sir Andrew Freeport took him up short. .. 1865 Dickens Mut. Fr. iv. xiii, 'But bless ye, my beauty!' cried Mrs. Boffin, taking him up short at this point. Forster is alluding to a constriction, perhaps caused by loss of breath (lung constriction) when being surprised, IMHO. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Howards End - E. M. Forster, p. 158 > http://forster.thefreelibrary.com/Howards-End/16-1 I think "drawn up short" is "brought to an abrupt, disconcerting halt" in the extended persiflage she was hoping to enjoy. I'm more familiar with "pulled up short".  SignatureJerry Friedman > > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > in the extended persiflage she was hoping to enjoy. I'm more familiar > with "pulled up short". Both bring up an image of a coachman reining in horses. Is there a reason to prefer 'pulled' to 'drawn'? Jan > > > Hello: > > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Both bring up an image of a coachman reining in horses. Absolutely, and in Literaturepost and Google Books you can find some examples of it being applied literally to reining in horses, pulling on dog's leads, or dealing with ropes on boats. Example: National Militia Standard, Embracing the Discipline of Infantry, Light Infantry, Riflemen, Light... - Page 63 by Pierce Darrow - 1822 His bit-rein must be drawn up short, keeping it firm between his fingers and thumb, in order that heJ may be able to check his horse with-in the shortest ... But there are also many early "figurative" examples of it being applied to one person dealing with another. The earliest I find is that Daniel Defoe, surprisingly, wrote a manual called "The Family Instructor" (published anonymously) in 1715, and the phrase appears there: The Family Instructor: in five parts: I. Respecting parents and children. II. Masters and... - Page 277 by Daniel Defoe - 1816 [reprint] He looked a little surprised at that, and said nothing; but my aunt took me up short, and said, don't say so, niece. "Up short" doesn't appear in Shakespeare, literally or figuratively. > Is there a reason to prefer 'pulled' to 'drawn'? I see "up short" used with: take, pull, catch, bring, draw, and fetch. (Compare "yanking on one's chain.") SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > Both bring up an image of a coachman reining in horses. > > Absolutely, and in Literaturepost and Google Books you can find some > examples of it being applied literally to reining in horses, pulling on > dog's leads, or dealing with ropes on boats. Yes, thank you all. Marius Hancu > > > > Hello: > > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > fingers and thumb, in order that heJ may be able to check his horse > with-in the shortest ... But let's make it clear for Marcus: that isn't the same expression. There "draw up short" just refers literally to the length of the rein between hand and bit. In the Forster passage, as others have said, it's equivalent to the more familar "brought up short" and "pulled up short". In the very instructive examples Marcus is bringing us I think we're seeing evidence of Forster's slightly idiosyncratic use of language. In my own mind, "draw" doesn't necessarily carry the sense of abruptness which is needed in the passage. In these expressions, "short" refers to the idea "short of the intended destination", with an echo of suddenness. "Up" refers to stopping: as we've mentioned before in AUE, "pull up" and "draw up" are among the horsey expressions which have been extended to mechanical transport. (In the racing results, you'll sometimes see "p.u." after a horse's name.) "I was brought up short" can indeed mean "I was shocked/surprised": presumably the idea is a sudden need to stop my thought-processes and change them in some way. > But there are also many early "figurative" examples of it being applied > to one person dealing with another. The earliest I find is that Daniel [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > "Up short" doesn't appear in Shakespeare, literally or figuratively. Again, I don't think this is precisely the same idea: looking at the page, I feel the aunt didn't interrupt her -- as it were, "short of the end of what she wanted to say" -- but took up "Sister's" statement with a quick reply. > > Is there a reason to prefer 'pulled' to 'drawn'? > > I see "up short" used with: take, pull, catch, bring, draw, and fetch. > > (Compare "yanking on one's chain.") Note, of course, the special senses of "caught short": as well as referring to being unexpectedly found wanting in various activites, "I was caught short" means I couldn't wait to get to the loo, and had to find a tree or something in a hurry! I've also heard "Caught short with a baby", for a sudden and unexpected onset of labour; but that may have been a one-off. About the "deadlies", it's quite common in familiar language to use adjectives in this way: "If you don't take precautions, you can end up with all sorts of nasties on your computer". As you know, it's quite regular to make adjectives into nouns like this; but, as already suggested, among family or friends we do it in ways which may not be transparent to an outsider -- I knew a family for whom "slimies" meant the bed-sheets of synthetic fibre they used for visitors who were only staying a single night. SignatureMike. >But let's make it clear for Marcus: that isn't the same expression. I feel better now. I don't think I've ever typed in the name "Marius" without first typing "Marcus" and then changing it. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >But let's make it clear for Marcus: that isn't the same expression. > > I feel better now. I don't think I've ever typed in the name "Marius" > without first typing "Marcus" and then changing it. Well, I'll be damed! Sorry, Marcus. SignatureMike. >> >But let's make it clear for Marcus: that isn't the same expression. >> >> I feel better now. I don't think I've ever typed in the name "Marius" >> without first typing "Marcus" and then changing it. > >Well, I'll be damed! Sorry, Marcus. Don't worry: there is nothing like a dame. SignatureRobin Herts, England > >> >But let's make it clear for Marcus: that isn't the same expression. > >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Don't worry: there is nothing like a dame. That's watt I figuerd. SignatureMike. > > Absolutely, and in Literaturepost and Google Books you can find some > > examples of it being applied literally to reining in horses, pulling on [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > But let's make it clear for Marcus: that isn't the same expression. What I looked for were physical uses of drawing (etc) something "up short", as opposed to any sort involving people interrupting each other, or being discombobulated -- what I'd call the figurative use, although it also appears to be quite old. I do like to think that literal uses precede metaphorical ones. I'm not pretending to know what's going on here; that would take more evidence to examine. One question is whether the "short" originally described an actual shortening of reins, ropes, etc, or whether maybe it described the short distance it covered, or the short time until it stopped. Some more things done "up short": British Manly Exercises: Containing Rowing and Sailing, Riding, & Driving, &c &c - Page 237 by Donald Walker - 1837 [re driving horses] ... and how difficult it would be, with wheelers not of the very best stamp, to pull up short, if any accident should happen. A Summer in Brittany - by Thomas Adolphus Trollope, Frances Milton Trollope - 1840 ...two cabriolets ... together with three or four persons on horseback, entered the village street at a brisk trot, and, dashing up to the door of a cottage ... pulled up short, with an air of business-like importance and hurry. The Museum of Foreign Literature, Science and Art - edited by Robert Walsh, Eliakim Littell - 1842 ...The sport is. always pursued on horseback, the horses being trained to pull up short, and let one fire from off their backs, as is necessary in a snap-shot ... Narrative of a journey through the upper provinces of India, from Calcutta to Bombay, 1824-1825,... - by Reginald Heber - 1844 But they had continually to bring [the boat] up short by main strength, or to jump into the water, and with long bamboos or with their arms and shoulders, ... Narrative of a Campaign Against the Kabaïles of Algeria: With the Mission of M. Suchet to the... - by Dawson Borrer, M. Suchet - 1848 - 400 pages These cavaliers, charging towards us at full speed, reined their steeds up short before our leader, and saluting ... Lord Jim by Conrad, Joseph - 1899 A ramshackle gharry [a Southeast Asian carriage], all dust and venetian blinds, pulled up short opposite the group [Jack London, 1914] Mr. Pike, in the lead, of course, up to his waist in rushing water, dashed in, caught the flying wreckage with a turn of rope, and fetched it up short with a turn around one of the port mizzen-shrouds. [snip general remarks I agree with] > > But there are also many early "figurative" examples of it being applied > > to one person dealing with another. The earliest I find is that Daniel [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > end of what she wanted to say" -- but took up "Sister's" statement with > a quick reply. I chose that because it was the earliest, but as we've seen, the earliest citations are often not self-explanatory. There are other examples of the interpersonal kind, which I can haul out but not just now. A German-English dictionary of 1832 said the phrase meant "to be short with one" and was obsolete! A guide to English for foreigners, 1831, said "to take you up short" translates as 'Je vous coupe la parole." How would that translate -- to interrupt? SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > There are other examples of the interpersonal kind, which I can haul out > but not just now. A German-English dictionary of 1832 said the phrase > meant "to be short with one" and was obsolete! A guide to English for > foreigners, 1831, said "to take you up short" translates as 'Je vous > coupe la parole." How would that translate -- to interrupt? Yes, to interrupt. Literally, this French expression means: I am cutting (down?) your speech. Marius Hancu >Also, what's a "deadly?" > >---- >"Cake?" said Helen. "The big cake or the little deadlies? I'm afraid >you thought my letter rather odd, but we'll explain--we aren't odd, >really--not affected, really. We're over-expressive: that's all. " Absent more context, I'd interpret a "little deadly" as a small but fattening (thus deadly) cake, an individual cake or an eclair, etc, as opposed to "the big cake" which is handed out in slices. Ounce for ounce the big cake is doubtless just as fattening, but possibly less deadly because you only eat one slice, whereas if there's a plate of assorted "little deadlies" you might be tempted to have one of each variety. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>Also, what's a "deadly?" >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > assorted "little deadlies" you might be tempted to have one of each > variety. But you might not have room. Daughter kindly gave us a voucher for a champagne tea at a posh London hotel. As I eyed the miniature sandwiches, scones and pastries I thought to myself that it all looked very dainty but rather less than filling. And we'd skipped lunch in anticipation. But we found, to our surprise, that we couldn't finish it all. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Absent more context, I'd interpret a "little deadly" as a small but >> fattening (thus deadly) cake, an individual cake or an eclair, etc, as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >very dainty but rather less than filling. And we'd skipped lunch in >anticipation. But we found, to our surprise, that we couldn't finish it all. We had a similar problem in a posh hotel in Surrey. But they were more than happy to put the remaining cakes into boxes for us to take home. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ > Hello: > > Is "drawn up short," "shocked?" > Or "brought to a halt?" elements of both of those, but perhaps more surprised than shocked, as when a previously docile dog suddenly snaps at you. > Also, what's a "deadly?" No-one else has answered this and this is just a GUESS. probably a small tasty moreish cake that piles on the pounds. It may well be a 'family expression' rather than a widely-used one. IOW that's what I'd assume from context and read on without reaching for a dictionary. > > Also, what's a "deadly?" > > No-one else has answered this and this is just a GUESS. probably a small > tasty moreish cake that piles on the pounds. It may well be a 'family > expression' rather than a widely-used one. IOW that's what I'd assume > from context and read on without reaching for a dictionary. I like this "moreish": (causing a desire for more):-) Marius Hancu Marius Hancu <Marius.Hancu@gmail.com> had it: > > > Also, what's a "deadly?" > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I like this "moreish": > (causing a desire for more):-) Perhaps you would also enjoy eating "s'mores" (a US delicacy unknown in the UK). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S'more SignatureDavid ===== > Marius Hancu <Marius.Hancu@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in the UK). > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S'more At first I thought by "s'mores" you meant "sophomores", which might be quite fun, but not on a family show. Regards Jonathan > Marius Hancu <Marius.Hancu@gmail.com> had it: [...] > > I like this "moreish": > > (causing a desire for more):-) > > Perhaps you would also enjoy eating "s'mores" (a US delicacy unknown > in the UK). > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S'more Following the link, I came upon Mallomars. They seem the same as what I know as a Munchmallow. Why there isn't a good picture in English, I don't know, but here's a sample: http://www.grandprixtrading.com/catalog/cookies/crvenka-munchmallow-chocolate-10 5g-lg.jpg or http://preview.tinyurl.com/yncvcy SignatureMike. Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> had it: > > Marius Hancu <Marius.Hancu@gmail.com> had it: > [...] [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > or > http://preview.tinyurl.com/yncvcy But, but, that's a Penny Teacake. http://www.tunnocks.co.uk/teacake.html http://wagwaan.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/teacake.jpg Mmmmmm, Tunnocks. SignatureDavid ===== > Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> had it: [...] > > Following the link, I came upon Mallomars. They seem the same as what I > > know as a Munchmallow. Why there isn't a good picture in English, I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But, but, that's a Penny Teacake. [...] Preposterous! This is a teacake: http://www.bigstockphoto.com/thumbs/4/7/4/small/47469.jpg Like a penny bun, but wider and flatter and less shiny, possibly with less fruit. Sorry I couldn't find an exterior view; but in searching I was startled to see how many and various are the shocking misconceptions about what a teacake actually is. SignatureMike. Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> had it: > > Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> had it: > [...] [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > was startled to see how many and various are the shocking > misconceptions about what a teacake actually is. We've discussed bread products at great length. Even Wife and I disagree about what is a teacake, but nota bene that I said "Penny Teacake". Anyhow, bread products were not available at the school tuck shop, so they weren't likely to misunderstand what you were asking for. SignatureDavid ===== > Mike Lyle <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > tuck shop, so they weren't likely to misunderstand what you were > asking for. And while we are on the subject of teacakes: http://www.bagofsweets.com/zcart.moreinfo.php?109~Toasted+Coconut+Teacakes&View_ Type=Category SignatureRay UK > Following the link, I came upon Mallomars. They seem the same as what > I > know as a Munchmallow. Why there isn't a good picture in English, I > don't know, but here's a sample: http://www.grandprixtrading.com/catalog/cookies/crvenka-munchmallow-choc olate-105g-lg.jpg Like this, do you mean? http://www.arnotts.com.au/downloads/products/product_Royals%20Milk_bfb0_ large.jpg -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > > Following the link, I came upon Mallomars. They seem the same as what > > I [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > http://www.arnotts.com.au/downloads/products/product_Royals%20Milk_bfb0_ > large.jpg Couldn't raise the picture, but I'll take your word. Good old Arnott's! I don't know why there doesn't seem to be a milk arrowroot biscuit in Britain. (I have some minor methodological doubts as to the effectiveness of strawberry Tim-Tams as a cure for breast cancer, though.) SignatureMike. > Couldn't raise the picture, but I'll take your word. Good old Arnott's! > I don't know why there doesn't seem to be a milk arrowroot biscuit in > Britain. (I have some minor methodological doubts as to the > effectiveness of strawberry Tim-Tams as a cure for breast cancer, > though.) I've enjoyed Tim-Tams for many years, and I've never had breast cancer. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > > Couldn't raise the picture, but I'll take your word. Good old Arnott's! > > I don't know why there doesn't seem to be a milk arrowroot biscuit in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I've enjoyed Tim-Tams for many years, and I've never had breast cancer. Oh, sorry. I take it back then: they obviously do work. SignatureMike. >> Couldn't raise the picture, but I'll take your word. Good old >> Arnott's! I don't know why there doesn't seem to be a milk [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've enjoyed Tim-Tams for many years, and I've never had breast > cancer. That doesn't make Tim-Tams a cure, just an effective prophylactic. SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I need to get a new colander. My 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |old one has holes in it. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ >>> Following the link, I came upon Mallomars. They seem the same as >>> what I >>> know as a Munchmallow. Why there isn't a good picture in English, I >>> don't know, but here's a sample: http://www.grandprixtrading.com/catalog/cookies/crvenka-munchmallow-choc >> olate-105g-lg.jpg >> >> Like this, do you mean? http://www.arnotts.com.au/downloads/products/product_Royals%20Milk_bfb0_ >> large.jpg > > Couldn't raise the picture, but I'll take your word. Good old > Arnott's! The old split URL problem. Try this: http://preview.tinyurl.com/y26osj Good old Arnott's is part of Campbell's Soup, I think, these days, after itself having swallowed up nearly every other biscuit maker. They've dropped a lot of the old favourite lines they had acquired, but hold the patents to stop anybody else making them. Other lines still exist, but have gone downhill. You can't snap a Salada anymore without the whole thing disintegrating. > I don't know why there doesn't seem to be a milk arrowroot biscuit in > Britain. (I have some minor methodological doubts as to the > effectiveness of strawberry Tim-Tams as a cure for breast cancer, > though.) Anything pink gets associated with curing breast cancer. It's a form of sympathetic magic. -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>> Also, what's a "deadly?" >> No-one else has answered this and this is just a GUESS. probably a small [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I like this "moreish": > (causing a desire for more):-) Precisely. Quite a common expression in BrE with a meaning exactly as you suppose, and harmless enough if not over-used. I've always assumed it was taken from (or in imitation of) Alice, BICBW. Regards Jonathan |
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