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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Wonder Woman et al.
Xah's Diary, 2006-11-07 In the past year, i've been using “et al.” to mean “and others (things)”, as opposed to “and others (persons)”. Today, it came upon me whether my usage is proper. The common usage “et al.” is for other _persons_, mostly in the context of book authors. This i know. But, what i wanted to know is that, whether it is defendable, to use “et al.” for “and other Things”. After looking up several dictionaries and wikipedia, the answer seems to be yes. From several sources, “et al.” can stand for “et alii”, “et aliae”, “et alia”, and “et alibi”. The “alii” is masculin, and “et alii” is indicated to mean “and others (male) persons”. The “aliae” is feminine. So, “et aliae” means “and other (female) persons”. The “alia” is neutral, so “et alia” just means other things, while “et alibi” means “and other places”. On the other hand, i could use “etc.” for “and other things”. As a side effect of this research, i came to know more about the word “etc.”. It is commonly used to mean “and other things (of the same type or class)”. However, technically, it needs not to be “of the same type or class”. The word “et cetera” simply means “and other things”. See: List of Latin phrases (A–E)#E↗, Et cetera↗ Updated the Wonder Woman page: At the age of 41, in 1982, Wonder Woman started to wear a double W on her chest, instead of the bird. Here's a excerpt from wikipedia: «In the preview in DC Comics Presents #41 (January 1982), writer Roy Thomas and penciller Gene Colan provided Wonder Woman with a stylized “W,” on her bodice, to replace the eagle. The new emblem, unlike the old, was copyrightable and so had greater merchandising potential.» Wikipedia readings: * Driver ant↗ , can kill animals including human animals. * Komodo dragon↗ . This lizzard, kills by a bite with bacteria-ridden teeth , which causes Blood poisoning↗ (bacteria in blood) or sepsis↗. * Wikipedia is so amazing. It now function as a database for US highways. See: Interstate 80↗ (note that it already functions as a database of the world's subways) ---- each ↗ indicates a hyperlink. For the real link, goto: http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/pd.html Xah xah@xahlee.org ∑ http://xahlee.org/ On 07 Nov 2006, Xah Lee wrote > Xah's Diary, 2006-11-07 (I'm not sure what happened to the encoding in your post, which has placed "“" before each reference to "et al." and "â€" afterwards. I've changed these to inverted commas, and hope that's OK.) > In the past year, i've been using "et al." to mean "and > others (things)", as opposed to "and others (persons)". [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > know is that, whether it is defendable, to use "et al." for > "and other Things". It's not defendable in my view. If I came across "et al." used for "and other things", I'd conclude that the writer didn't know the meaning of the phrase.  SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS wrote, in <Xns987471E2C4D4Fwhhvans@62.253.170.163> on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:13:19 GMT: > On 07 Nov 2006, Xah Lee wrote > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > placed "â" before each reference to "et al." and "â?" afterwards. > I've changed these to inverted commas, and hope that's OK.) They are the extended ASCII form for the real left and right quote characters. They display correctly here using a proper news reader. SignatureNick Spalding On 07 Nov 2006, Nick Spalding wrote > HVS wrote, in <Xns987471E2C4D4Fwhhvans@62.253.170.163> > on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:13:19 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > quote characters. They display correctly here using a proper > news reader. I'm using XNews which, AFAIK, is usually considered a "proper newsreader". SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS wrote, in <Xns98747E4602A7Awhhvans@62.253.170.163> on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:26:23 GMT: > On 07 Nov 2006, Nick Spalding wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I'm using XNews which, AFAIK, is usually considered a "proper > newsreader". Perhaps the code page or the font that you are using doesn't support them. Western Europe (codepage 1252) is what Agent tells me it is using, and TNR as font. SignatureNick Spalding On 07 Nov 2006, Nick Spalding wrote > HVS wrote, in <Xns98747E4602A7Awhhvans@62.253.170.163> > on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:26:23 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > support them. Western Europe (codepage 1252) is what Agent tells > me it is using, and TNR as font. Not sure what code page I'm using -- I don't see this problem very often at all, which makes me think I'm using something fairly bog standard. I'd assume it's my font -- Book Antiqua -- that's garbling it, but switching to fixed font like Courier New (which surely must handle tit) doesn't change the garbling. I'll probably just shrug and put up with the few times it happens; it's infrequent enough not to be a huge problem. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van HVS wrote, in <Xns98748B8BF6D61whhvans@62.253.170.163> on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 13:45:42 GMT: > On 07 Nov 2006, Nick Spalding wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'll probably just shrug and put up with the few times it happens; > it's infrequent enough not to be a huge problem. They are OK in Courier New too here. SignatureNick Spalding 2006-11-07 <n0v0l2p23ffiu0g8h061vmelb063e0tv54@4ax.com>, > HVS wrote, in <Xns98747E4602A7Awhhvans@62.253.170.163> > on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 12:26:23 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Western Europe (codepage 1252) is what Agent tells me it is using, and TNR > as font. If it's three question marks, then the "glitched post" is likely in UTF-8, not 1252 [that would be the codepage you're sending in, not the one you're viewing in] Jordan Abel wrote, in <slrnel1f0n.bd.random@rlaptop.random.yi.org> on 7 Nov 2006 17:02:17 GMT: > 2006-11-07 <n0v0l2p23ffiu0g8h061vmelb063e0tv54@4ax.com>, > > HVS wrote, in <Xns98747E4602A7Awhhvans@62.253.170.163> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > UTF-8, not 1252 [that would be the codepage you're sending in, not the > one you're viewing in] Agent takes it tune from the content-type header which is as you say UTF-8 and which it handles correctly. Harvey's must not be doing so. SignatureNick Spalding > HVS wrote, in <Xns987471E2C4D4Fwhhvans@62.253.170.163> > on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:13:19 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > They are the extended ASCII form for the real left and right quote > characters. They display correctly here using a proper news reader. You are doubly wrong. First: "extended ASCII" doesn't mean a damn thing. There are a number of proprietary "extended ASCII"s and no proper newsreader should bother with them. Second: The encoding is *not* "extended ASCII" but UTF-8, and newsreaders should be able to handle it. Si you have misidentified the encoding and made a bogus claim that if your identification were correct then a proper newsreader should handle it. Martin Ambuhl wrote, in <4rbpprFqdjcuU1@mid.individual.net> on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:15:48 -0500: > > HVS wrote, in <Xns987471E2C4D4Fwhhvans@62.253.170.163> > > on Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:13:19 GMT: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Si you have misidentified the encoding and made a bogus claim that if > your identification were correct then a proper newsreader should handle it. The significant point is not the technical description of those characters but the fact that my Agent handles them but Harvey's Xnews does not, as he has it configured at present anyway. SignatureNick Spalding Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net>, the quailing gravedigger, gnawed: > You are doubly wrong. > First: "extended ASCII" doesn't mean a damn thing<BITCHSLAP> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_ASCII "The term extended ASCII (or high ASCII) describes eight-bit or larger character encodings that include the standard seven-bit ASCII characters as well as others." You dumbfuck c.nt. Signaturealt.usenet.kooks - Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker: September 2005 and April 2006 "K-Man's particular genius, however, lies not merely in his humour, but his ability to make posters who had previously seemed reasonably well-balanced turn into foaming, frothing, death threat-uttering maniacs" - Snarky, Demon Lord of Confusion "If the truth be known, the only reason Osama is still on the loose is because he himself hasn't fallen victim to the K-Man." - Wog George Thou untaught knaves. Thou brainless, slovenly freebooter. > Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net>, the quailing gravedigger, gnawed: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You dumbfuck c.nt. Your should read what you quote. Unfortunately for your position, this "definition" (what sort of person thinks wikipedia to be an authority?) encompasses multiple encodings. This merely supports my position that the term means nothing for determining the encoding, and certainly does not specify something that should be understood by "a proper newsreader," as Nick Spalding wrote. And I believe you have misidentified my sex. Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net>, the ablated mirrorer, twiddled: >> Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net>, the quailing gravedigger, >> gnawed: [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Your should read what you quote<BITCHSLAP> What does the quote have to do with you being a dumbfuck c.nt, you dumbfuck c.nt? > Unfortunately for your position<BITCHSLAP> No position was stated, you dumbfuck c.nt. > this "definition"<BITCHSLAP> "That" definition. Three strikes, you're out, you dumbfuck c.nt. Signaturealt.usenet.kooks - Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker: September 2005 and April 2006 "K-Man's particular genius, however, lies not merely in his humour, but his ability to make posters who had previously seemed reasonably well-balanced turn into foaming, frothing, death threat-uttering maniacs" - Snarky, Demon Lord of Confusion "If the truth be known, the only reason Osama is still on the loose is because he himself hasn't fallen victim to the K-Man." - Wog George Thou mad misleader. Thou nut with no kernel. > Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net>, the quailing gravedigger, gnawed: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > character encodings that include the standard seven-bit ASCII characters as > well as others." It's a pity you didn't bother to read the sentence that comes immediately after the one you quoted. It says essentially the same as what Martin has pointed out. > You dumbfuck c.nt. I used to like looking up the naughty words in the dictionary, too. You'll find that the thrill wears off once you get to about ten years old. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. Peter Moylan <peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org>, the customs tax collector, execrated: >> Martin Ambuhl <mambuhl@earthlink.net>, the quailing gravedigger, >> gnawed: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It's a pity<BITCHSLAP> Tell some c.nt who might care, you snotfucked moron. Signaturealt.usenet.kooks - Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker: September 2005 and April 2006 "K-Man's particular genius, however, lies not merely in his humour, but his ability to make posters who had previously seemed reasonably well-balanced turn into foaming, frothing, death threat-uttering maniacs" - Snarky, Demon Lord of Confusion "If the truth be known, the only reason Osama is still on the loose is because he himself hasn't fallen victim to the K-Man." - Wog George Thou begrimed clotpoll. Thou cheese-filled hideous object. Peter Moylan <peter@ozebelgDieSpammers.org>, the person who cuts and polishes coprolites for jewellery, chimed in: > f.cking DICK It's a pity you didn't bother f.cking BALLS FLOWERPOT to > read the sentence that comes f.cking ASS-WIPER BEAN QUEEN ANAL EGG > immediately after the one you quoted. f.cking SHAG-BAG It says > essentially the same as f.cking LOVE MUSCLE what Martin has pointed > out. w.nker c.nt-STICKER WHORE FUDGEPACKER CRAP CUM PUSSY HELL sh.t > PUBIC HAIR > f.cking BUMP BELLIES INTESTINE I used to like looking up f.cking > ASS-KISSING CLAM DIGGER the naughty words in the dictionary, f.cking > TOE JAM BITCHEN-TWITCHEN LOVE BONE too. You'll find that the thrill > f.cking BUM BAG wears off once you get to f.cking FARM ANIMAL about > ten years old. WHORE ORGASM PUSSY BASTARD DYKE QUIM PORK SWORD FANNY > bl.wj.b ASSWIPE >They are the extended ASCII form for the real left and right quote >characters. They display correctly here using a proper news reader. Ain't no such thing as "extended ASCII". (People posting on Usenet would be wise to restrict their text to either ISO 646 IRV or one of the ISO 8859 variants, unless posting in a language which requires full ISO 10646 or ISO 2022-JP support.) -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > On 07 Nov 2006, Xah Lee wrote > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > "and other things", I'd conclude that the writer didn't know the > meaning of the phrase. As Xah pointed out, the "phrase" 'et al' has three meanings (ignoring the 'et alibi' version) corresponding to masculine, feminine and neutral "others". OED defines 'et al' as "And others. (Used esp. to avoid giving a list of authors, etc., in full.)" And since they say "etc" it seems to me defendable and even defensible to regard "other things" as being within the neutral etceteras. Latin dictionaries generally give the translation of "alius" as "someone else or something else" eg at: http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Latin/ SignatureJohn Dean Oxford On 07 Nov 2006, John Dean wrote >> On 07 Nov 2006, Xah Lee wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > defensible to regard "other things" as being within the neutral > etceteras. You may be right in a technical sense, but I don't think it's a remotely idiomatic meaning of the phrase. Would it not have struck you as odd if the OED note had read "esp. to avoid giving a list of authors, et al., in full"? SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 07 Nov 2006, John Dean wrote > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Would it not have struck you as odd if the OED note had read "esp. > to avoid giving a list of authors, et al., in full"? Very odd indeed. If one really must Latinize one's others, it's "et al." for people, and "inter alia" for things, no? I don't, of course, suggest that "inter" means the same as "et": "etc" usually does the job. SignatureMike. the Journey of a Foreign Character thru Internet Xah Lee, 20051101 There's a bunch of confusion about the display of non-ascii characters such as the bullet “•”. These confusions are justifiable, because the underlying stuff is technology, computing technologies, are in a laymen perspective, extremely complex. http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t2/non-ascii_journey.html Xah xah@xahlee.org ∑ http://xahlee.org/ > On 07 Nov 2006, Xah Lee wrote > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > placed "“" before each reference to "et al." and "”" afterwards. > I've changed these to inverted commas, and hope that's OK.) |
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