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Adjectives for adverbs

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barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 20:10 GMT
Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
me".

On US TV, adjectival forms seem to be supplanting traditional adverbs.
Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly".  Is there a term
for this change?
Mark Brader - 07 Nov 2006 21:17 GMT
> Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
> me".
>
> On US TV, adjectival forms seem to be supplanting traditional adverbs.

This is not an adverbial use.  I don't know the name for it, but there's
a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act" that are
commonly used with an adjective.  "Feel big", "look cold", "seem hungry",
"act disrespectful".

"Act disrespectfully" would also be correct, but it's a different
construction that happens to work out to the same meaning.

> Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly".

I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established
one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate.  Does someone have time
to look up how old it is?

> Is there a term for this change?

Is there a change?
Signature

Mark Brader | "I don't have to stay here to be insulted."
Toronto     | "I realize that.  You're insulted everywhere, I imagine."
msb@vex.net |                                     -- Theodore Sturgeon

My text in this article is in the public domain.

barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 21:28 GMT
> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Is there a change?

Maybe "act.." was a bad example.  I think "run quick" is better.

I think that there is a change.  No doubt sentences of this type have
been around for centuries, but now they seem to be the standard rather
than an acceptable alternative.  Let me be clearer with an action verb
that cannot be a substitute for "to be".  Would you consider "she spoke
disrespectful" to be correct?

> --
> Mark Brader | "I don't have to stay here to be insulted."
> Toronto     | "I realize that.  You're insulted everywhere, I imagine."
> msb@vex.net |                                     -- Theodore Sturgeon
>
> My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mike Lyle - 07 Nov 2006 21:45 GMT
[...]
> > I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established
> > one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate.  Does someone have time
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> that cannot be a substitute for "to be".  Would you consider "she spoke
> disrespectful" to be correct?

I think it's just that people now feel much more free to use informal
language in public than they used to. I'd never say "She spoke
disrespectful" myself, but as Mark says, these forms are unremarkable
in the speech of  "the man in the street", and literature suggests they
probably always have been.

Signature

Mike.

barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 22:01 GMT
> [...]
> > > I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> --
> Mike.

I think there is a far greater reluctance nowadays to correct someone
else, especially if he or she is a wealthy celeb.  When one of these
guys says "a phenomena", nodody jumps in to put him right.
Robert Lieblich - 07 Nov 2006 23:56 GMT
[ ... ]

> I think there is a far greater reluctance nowadays to correct someone
> else, especially if he or she is a wealthy celeb.  When one of these
> guys says "a phenomena", nodody jumps in to put him right.

English usage seems to be changing ever faster, perhaps because there
are so many more words in circulation.  "Media" is now, for all
practical purposes, a singular:  I read respectable authors in
respectable publications, and they're writing "The media is ..." all
over the place.  "Phenomena" and "criteria" will soon join "agenda"
and "data" (yes, "data") as singulars, and their naturalized English
plurals -- adding "s" -- will soon follow.  Most of those who let such
things go by aren't really letting them go by -- they simply don't
realize that there's anything wrong.  The rest don't see the
percentage in telling a 350-pound offensive tackle that he's misused a
word with a Greek origin.

I seem to be saying this more and more: You don't have to like such
usages, and you certainly don't have to adopt them, but trying to
extirpate them is futile.  Ask me about "as such" some time.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Realist

barkerplace@hotmail.com - 08 Nov 2006 16:44 GMT
> [ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Bob Lieblich
> Realist

It would be less annoying if the proper singulars remained standard and
the plurals were formed by adding an "s".  I guess the natural tendency
to exaggeration rules that out.

Bacterium is still used in pathology.  In clinical medicine these guys
never travel alone so bacteria is usually accurate.
Richard R. Hershberger - 10 Nov 2006 16:34 GMT
> [ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> respectable publications, and they're writing "The media is ..." all
> over the place.

The point that seems to be routinely overlooked in the "singular media"
discussion is that this is a semantic shift, with grammatical number
just along for the ride.  If we are talking about one more more
specific modes of information transfer, the singular is still "medium"
and "media" is still plural:

"Television is an inferior medium for news.  Radio and newspapers are
superior media."

When we want to refer not to some specific collection of media but to
the collective institution of the news or entertainment industries, we
use the word as a mass noun, and mass nouns in English are
grammatically singular.  This is not cause for a sigh of resignation.
It is a development that increases the language's expressiveness: a
Good Thing.

When I see a writer use "The media are..." I ask myself "Which ones?"
If that question doesn't fit, the writer is using the "plural media"
badly, and I suspect him of blindly following rules he doesn't
understand.

At the very least, it would be more useful to discuss the development
of "media" as a mass noun, not the development of it as singular.
Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er,
phenomenon.

Richard R. Hershberger
The Grammer Genious - 10 Nov 2006 16:43 GMT
"Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhersh@acme.com> wrote
<...>
> At the very least, it would be more useful to discuss the development
> of "media" as a mass noun, not the development of it as singular.
> Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er,
> phenomenon.

Except, what is your opinion of a U.S. government sticker on a CD that says:
"This media has been scanned for viruses."
Evan Kirshenbaum - 10 Nov 2006 17:18 GMT
> "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhersh@acme.com> wrote
> <...>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Except, what is your opinion of a U.S. government sticker on a CD
> that says: "This media has been scanned for viruses."

My opinion is that it grates, but also that it's a further sense that
never had "medium" as a singular.  It used to be that "media" was used
for different *types* of things that you could store data on, but in
the same way that "film" was a medium but a particular roll of film
was never "a medium", so CDs as a way of storing were media, but
individual discs weren't.

The OED implies that it's been used for a while, though:

   2. _Computing_. A physical object (as a disk, tape cartridge,
      etc.) used for the storage of data. Cf. MEDIUM n. 4e.  

   1982 _ICL News_ July 2/5 Media is the means of entry, output,
        exchange or storage of data handled by the operator and
        removable from the peripheral. It includes disc packs and
        cartridges, flexible disc cartridges, magnetic-tapes,
        autoload collars, tape cassettes, punch cards and printer
        stationery.

   1990 _Metals & Minerals_ July 422/1 The format of the storage
        material or, as it is often termed, the media, is almost
        always that of a tape or disc.

   1992 _UnixWorld_ Apr. 131 (advt.) The 1 GB CY-2000 optical disk
        drive saves and restores files at hard disk speed. All on a
        removable media that protects your data.

Sense 4e of "medium":

   Any physical material (as tape, disk, paper, etc.) used for
   recording or reproducing data, images, or sound.

is cited to 1941.

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Paul Wolff - 10 Nov 2006 20:31 GMT
>> English usage seems to be changing ever faster, perhaps because there
>> are so many more words in circulation.  "Media" is now, for all
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er,
>phenomenon.

Just to muddy the waters, I thoroughly dislike the mass noun 'media';
for that reason I strive to speak and write of the 'mass media' when
that's what I mean.  But I'm just reactionary, I know.

Signature

Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Eric Walker - 11 Nov 2006 00:39 GMT
[...]

> The point that seems to be routinely overlooked in the "singular media"
> discussion is that this is a semantic shift, with grammatical number
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> use the word as a mass noun, and mass nouns in English are
> grammatically singular.

But are they not also characteristically in singular *form*?  "The
fruits grown in California", but "an abundance of good fruit"; "various
kinds of fishes", but "a boatload of fish"; "the peoples of Europe",
but "the British people".  By analogy, one would expect the collective
signifying all the communications media as an undifferentiated thing to
be "medium", as it was when "press" (not "presses") served that need.
(I'm far from convinced it doesn't still serve it: when I was a member
of whatever it is, we who had them--and those who issued them--called
them "press passes", even though many, like me, were not working with a
print medium; and we had entry to the "press box", not the media box.)

That lack of correspondence of forms is one reason many doubt that this
is a new collective a-birthing, and rather is just a common solecism.

> This is not cause for a sigh of resignation.

That depends on which it is: new form or error.

> It is a development that increases the language's expressiveness: a
> Good Thing.

A development that augments the language's expressiveness is assuredly
A Good Thing, but does this?  What is the gain from referring to most
or all of the mass-communication media with "the media is" as opposed
to "the media are"?

I for one don't quite know why the old, established "press" has to be
seen as antiquated.  The concept now includes reportage conveyed by
electromagnetic transmission as well as printing presses, but simple
and obvious sense extensions of that sort are routine in English, and
the term was--and, I'd say, still is--lively and well entrenched in the
tongue.  "Media" strikes me as an artificial, trendy "we're with it,
man" linguistic hula hoop.

I've argued before that singular media is a bad idea:

"Media" as a singular is thus bad business in two ways: first, it
severly muddies the distinction between singular and plural forms, for
there remains a host of legitimate uses for a plural "media".  Second
(and, I daresay, graver), singular "media" is a conceptual meat
grinder, making verbal hamburger out of things that deserve to be kept
reasonably well separated in our thoughts: there are numerous
substantial and important differences of several sorts, inherent in the
nature of each medium, between the treatment of news by newspapers,
radio, television, and now the internet; to lump them up as one
monolithic thing needlessly fuzzes comprehension.

We do not typically refer to a newspaper as "a medium" because we have
the handy word "newspaper", which fully comprises the idea of a medium
for delivering news.  With the others, we need to rely on the context
to suggest that we are referring to them in their capacity as
deliverers of news (or whatever it is that Fox delivers), but that is
rarely if ever a difficulty.  (Notice that we no longer feel a need to
say "the news media"--bare "media" suffices just because the context is
invariably sufficiently defining.)  By keeping "media" plural, we have
a constant reminder that several rather different things that work
rather differently are being rolled up in one word.

> When I see a writer use "The media are..." I ask myself "Which ones?"
> If that question doesn't fit, the writer is using the "plural media"
> badly, and I suspect him of blindly following rules he doesn't
> understand.

To the contrary: that you ask yourself "which ones" is important.  One
who would say "the media is" had best be 110% sure that his remarks
apply equally to each and every one of the various media he is grinding
up in that phrase--and the odds are high that they do not so apply.
The rule he is following, blindly or not, is that we use plural-form
verbs with plural subjects, and in the majority--arguably the great
majority--of cases, the subject remains plural in a very real as well
as a merely formal sense.  If he is perfectly sure that his remark is
perfectly general, he can say "the press" with virtually no fear that
anyone will think his observations apply only to print media.

> At the very least, it would be more useful to discuss the development
> of "media" as a mass noun, not the development of it as singular.
> Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er,
> phenomenon.

It might be if it were, but it does not give the appearance of being so.
Mike Lyle - 08 Nov 2006 18:17 GMT
[...]
> > I think it's just that people now feel much more free to use informal
> > language in public than they used to. I'd never say "She spoke
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> else, especially if he or she is a wealthy celeb. When one of these
> guys says "a phenomena", nodody jumps in to put him right.

Well, allowing for what Bob said, which is true enough, you don't have
to be rich or famous or a heavyweight: few interviewers are likely to
be rude enough to correct an interviewee in mid-flight. Seventy or more
years ago, the BBC probably wasn't the only broadcaster which helped
interviewees to prepare written answers to be read out on the air. I
don't want to go back to those unspontaneous days, even though I wish
more people took a pride in their English.

Signature

Mike.

Millicent Tendency - 08 Nov 2006 12:48 GMT
>> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
>> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>that cannot be a substitute for "to be".  Would you consider "she spoke
>disrespectful" to be correct?

Aha! This has been known for several decades as a characteristic
feature of RonKneE: the classic example is "the lads done brilliant,
Brian". Peter Cook, Clive James... lots of people were commenting on
it in the Seventies.

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Millicent Tendency
(TEFKATHE)

Donna Richoux - 09 Nov 2006 11:49 GMT
> Maybe "act.." was a bad example.  I think "run quick" is better.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that cannot be a substitute for "to be".  Would you consider "she spoke
> disrespectful" to be correct?

I find only 13 Google hits for "spoke disrespectful". It's not a thing
that gets said much. So I question your "now they seem to be the
standard."

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

lovek323@gmail.com - 10 Nov 2006 10:13 GMT
We all agree that it should be "spoke disrespectfully" rather than
"spoke disrespectful". Using the adjectival form when the adverbial
would have been correct is indeed a very common mistake. Some of you
say that we should not correct people on their errors, but I disagree.
What is disturbing is when an English teacher makes these errors.
Certainly it is not always appropriate to correct people, but I believe
that it is sometimes appropriate. I know that I personally benefit
greatly from the correction of my grammar.

> <barkerpl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe "act.." was a bad example.  I think "run quick" is better.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> --
> Best -- Donna Richoux
The Grammer Genious - 10 Nov 2006 14:09 GMT
<lovek323@gmail.com> wrote :
> <...>Using the adjectival form when the adverbial
> would have been correct is indeed a very common mistake.
> <...>

A point to be made is that most English words are not intrinsically of a
single word class. Function determines word class. A word is an adverb if it
is used as an adverb. It may be incorrectly so used, but it is still an
adverb.

Also there are people who think that just because the word "slowly" exists,
the form "slow" should never be used as an adverb (there are other examples
of such pairs). Those people are mistaken.
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 22 Nov 2006 23:17 GMT
A colleague just advised me to "drive careful".  Now that DOES have a
large following on Google.

> > Maybe "act.." was a bad example.  I think "run quick" is better.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> that gets said much. So I question your "now they seem to be the
> standard."
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 21:43 GMT
> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> My text in this article is in the public domain.

Just googled "act disrespectful" and it's all over the place; even
McCain uses it.  To me "act" in this sense is closer to "behave" than
"be", but "behave disrespectful", which sounds very wrong to my ear, is
also widely used on the Net.
mb - 09 Nov 2006 01:18 GMT
> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate.  Does someone have time
> to look up how old it is?

Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine"
old enough?
Donna Richoux - 09 Nov 2006 01:29 GMT
> > > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine"
> old enough?

Alford writes about this in the 1866 "A Plea for the Queen's English,"
p. 203. Basically he makes the point that these adjectives are perfectly
fine as long as they are one syllable, like "The moon shines bright." He
says

    ...but we can hardly say, 'The moon shines
    brilliant.' What may be the reason for his I do not
    pretend to say; I only state what seems to be the
    fact.

Signature

Best -- Donna Richoux

Mark Brader - 09 Nov 2006 01:45 GMT
Someone posted:
> > > Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly".

I (Mark Brader) wrote:
> > I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established
> > one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate.  Does someone have time
> > to look up how old it is?

Another M.B. writes:
> Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine"
> old enough?

Well, since, it doesn't contain the word "quick", I'd say the point is moot.
Signature

Mark Brader              "After all, it is necessary to get behind
Toronto                   someone before you can stab them in the back."
msb@vex.net                      -- Lynn & Jay, "Yes, Prime Minister"

Peter Duncanson - 09 Nov 2006 12:23 GMT
>> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
>> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine"
>old enough?

Do you know which translation that is?

The version I'm familiar with is (in Bartlett's Quotations at
Bartleby.com and in two printed books of quotations):

   Though the mills of God grind slowly,
   yet they grind exceeding small;
   Though with patience He stands waiting,
   with exactness grinds He all.

Baron Friedrich van Logau (1604-1655)
translated by H W Longfellow (1807-1882)

Strictly speaking "exceeding" should be "exceedingly", but that has
one too many syllabubbles.
Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Eric Walker - 09 Nov 2006 23:00 GMT
> Do you know which translation that is?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Baron Friedrich van Logau (1604-1655)
> translated by H W Longfellow (1807-1882)

Googles on the fragments <mills of god grind slow, but> and <mills of
god grind slowly, but> shows that the "slow" form is not quite 9% of
instances (38 vs. 403).

The attribution to van Logau may be inaccurate--one source states that
"This expression comes from ancient Greek, translated as 'The mills of
the gods grind slowly, but they grind small.' In English it appeared in
George Herbert's _Jacula Prudentum_  (1640) as 'God's mill grinds slow
but sure.'"  The date is roughly contemporary with van Logau; possibly
both were using some common source.

Another source attributes "The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they
grind to powder" to Plutarch (_Moralia_, translated by John Philips,
1878).  This link--

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-837X%28191007%295%3A3%3C363%3AAGPIMI%3E2.0
.CO%3B2-2&size=LARGE


--is of interest.

Clearly, there is a vivid tradition of rendering the saying with
"slow"; my guess would be that such renderings are seeking a rhetorical
parallel with "fine", though the two uses are arguably not true
grammatical parallels.
Donna Richoux - 09 Nov 2006 23:10 GMT
> > Do you know which translation that is?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> but sure.'"  The date is roughly contemporary with van Logau; possibly
> both were using some common source.

The Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs has two citations in Greek,
with translations:

    Sextus Empiricus ... The mills of the gods grind
    slowly, but they grind small.
    Plutarch De sera numb. vind. ... I don't see any use
    in these 'late-grinding' mills of the Gods.

Signature

Best wishes -- Donna Richoux

jan-erikskm@hotmail.com - 09 Nov 2006 04:24 GMT
> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> commonly used with an adjective.  "Feel big", "look cold", "seem hungry",
> "act disrespectful".

You mean "subject predicatives" here.. if that's what it's called in
English.. It tells something about the subject of the sentence.. "to
be" also takes predicatives.. But I would say that "act" needs an
adverb.., it tells about THE WAY someone acts..
Jan-Erik.
Mark Brader - 09 Nov 2006 08:27 GMT
Mark Brader:
> > ... there's a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act"
> > that are commonly used with an adjective.  "Feel big", "look cold",
> > "seem hungry", "act disrespectful".

"Jan-Erik":
> But I would say that "act" needs an adverb.., it tells about THE WAY
> someone acts..

No, not in this usage.  If your cat is standing by the empty food bowl
and meowing, he's not acting hungrily -- he's acting hungry.  And if
Faith Hill wasn't joking, she was acting disrespectful.
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto      |     "The problem is that tax lawyers are
msb@vex.net               |      amazingly creative." -- David Sherman

My text in this article is in the public domain.

jan-erikskm@hotmail.com - 10 Nov 2006 01:54 GMT
> Mark Brader:
> > > ... there's a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act"
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> and meowing, he's not acting hungrily -- he's acting hungry.  And if
> Faith Hill wasn't joking, she was acting disrespectful.

It's an interesting point you've got here, but I think we need to bring
semantics on here. This is obviously two different meanings of the verb
"act" in English. Where and adverb would be needed after "act", "act"
would have the same meaning as "behave", wouldn't you say? "To
act/behave disrespectfully". In the example with the cat, I assume "is
acting" can be replaced with "appears to be" or "seems"(?). So I agree
with you when you say you'd rather see an adjective than an adverb
there, but I've never heard the verb "act" being used in a context like
that. I'd assume the cat doesn't just 'pretend' to be hungry but is
really hungry..
Eric Walker - 10 Nov 2006 02:35 GMT
[...]

> It's an interesting point you've got here, but I think we need to bring
> semantics on here. This is obviously two different meanings of the verb
> "act" in English.

Just so.   From a decent desk dictionary:

act, v.i.--
1. to perform on the stage; play a role
2. to behave as though playing a role
----------
4. to behave; comport oneself ["act like a lady"]
9. to appear to be [he acted very angry]

Note especially the adjectival "angry" in that last definition.

> Where an adverb would be needed after "act", "act"
> would have the same meaning as "behave", wouldn't you say? "To
> act/behave disrespectfully". . . .

The choice of adverb vs. adjective simply reflects whether we are
assigning the quality to the actor or the act.  If we feel that Ms.
Hill's actions showed disrespect, we use the adverb; if we feel that
Ms. Hill herself manifested disrespect, we use the adjective.

Obviously, there is no bright line separating the concepts: Ms. Hill's
manifesting disrespect would derive from her actions, while by
performing those actions she would be acting the part of one who is
disrespectful.  It's a matter of instinct or taste concerning where the
conceptual emphasis belongs.

But, bottom line for the original question, I for one (having
reconsidered my original answer) don't think that the adjectival use
can be ruled erroneous.
Mark Brader - 10 Nov 2006 09:42 GMT
I (Mark Brader) and "Jan-Erik" wrote:
>>>> ... there's a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act"
>>>> that are commonly used with an adjective.  "Feel big", "look cold",
>>>> "seem hungry", "act disrespectful".

>>> But I would say that "act" needs an adverb.., it tells about THE WAY
>>> someone acts..

>> No, not in this usage.  If your cat is standing by the empty food bowl
>> and meowing, he's not acting hungrily -- he's acting hungry.  And if
>> Faith Hill wasn't joking, she was acting disrespectful.

> It's an interesting point you've got here, but I think we need to bring
> semantics on here. This is obviously two different meanings of the verb
> "act" in English.

No, it's the same meaning.  If it was the other meaning, the original
sentence would have said "disrespectfully".

> Where and adverb would be needed after "act", "act"
> would have the same meaning as "behave", wouldn't you say? "To
> act/behave disrespectfully".

Yes.

> In the example with the cat, I assume "is acting" can be replaced
> with "appears to be" or "seems"(?).

More precisely, "is behaving in a way so as to seem".

> So I agree with you when you say you'd rather see an adjective than
> an adverb there, but I've never heard the verb "act" being used in
> a context like that.

Now you have.

> I'd assume the cat doesn't just 'pretend' to be hungry but is
> really hungry..

The cat's motives are irrelevant, only his behavior.  This is not
"acting" in the sense of what actors do.
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My text in this article is in the public domain.

John Holmes - 11 Nov 2006 06:00 GMT
> I (Mark Brader) and "Jan-Erik" wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> The cat's motives are irrelevant, only his behavior.  This is not
> "acting" in the sense of what actors do.

Oh, yes it is. It's just that cats are the ultimate method actors.

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Eric Walker - 07 Nov 2006 23:38 GMT
> Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly".  Is there a term
> for this change?

Not that I know of, but: one, it is a major, long-developing,
continuing, important  trend in the development of modern English; and
two, I don't think that is an example of it.

The trend I mean is that of treating ever more verbs as copulative.  A
copulative verb is one that does not actually predicate, but only acts
as a formal "placeholder" expressing a connection or equality between
the subject and the nominal or formal predicate, such that that
"predicate"--applying to the subject noun, not the connecting
verb--needs to be adjectival, not adverbial.  (Another common name for
copulative verbs is "linking verbs".)

The superlative copulative verb is "be", which is always and ever
copulative: "He is strong", never "He is strongly".  There is no hard
and fast list of or rule for selecting or recognizing other copulative
verbs, but as they generally suggest a *connection* between the subject
and the nominal predicate, they are typically verbs of "seeming", such
as (in some instances depending on the particular sense intended):
appear, become, come, fall, feel, get, go, grow, happen, keep, leave
off, lie, look, loom, prove, rank, remain, rest, run, seem, sit, smell,
sound, stand, stay, taste, turn, turn out.

As can be seen, all of those--in at least one sense of each--are verbs
chiefly relating some quality to the subject: "it loomed large in his
legend", "the well ran dry", " the air smelled damp", and so on.  In
most or all cases, we could replace the subject verb with a simple "be"
(or whatever form of "be" is appropriate for the context)--but, did we
do so, we would lose some of the sense or tone of the linking.  That is
the point of and strength of copulative verbs: they allow us to express
the equivalence that "be" does, but shade or modulate our expressed
sense of the equivalence by using a verb that more precisely expresses
the nature or form the equivalence takes.

The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is
thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to
express our thoughts with precision and elegance.

It is not, of course, that most, or even many, users of the tongue have
ever heard the phrase "copulative verb", or made a conscious decision
about the form to use or its grammatical significance. The key, and
what undoubtedly drives their choice, is a clear intuition that the
relation between subject and predicate is one of correspondence, not
true full predication, whether or not they know those terms.

All that said, I think the particular example given was simply the sort
of swapping of horses mid-stream that often happens in spontaneous
speech: most likely what was meant was either "the idea that I would
act disrespectfully towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to me" or
"the idea that I would be disrespectful to a fellow musician is
unimaginable to me", with the two getting mixed in the saying.

Likewise, to "run quick" is a malaprop, but quite likely arises from
the increasing tendency noted above, in that many speakers now find the
copulative sense as natural as--or even more natural than--the more
common predicative finite sense for many verbs, especially (it seems)
common, short ones, even when that choice is in error.

It is worth noting that virtually all style and usage manuals concur
that adjectives are inherently more effective (or "powerful") than
adverbs: adjectives are strong, adverbs weak.  The statement in classic
older form--

"The subdivisions operate independently of the parent company."

--now feels needlessly "stuffy" to many sensibilities, which find--

"The subdivisions operate independent of the parent company."

--much more natural, with "operate" being construed as copulative,
connecting (in a particular way) the adjectival quality of independence
to the subject noun "subdivisions", rather than describing the manner
in which subdivisions perform their operating.

In a great many uses either form, adjective or adverb, can be used--

"He managed it all single-handed[ly]."

--with the choice of assigning the suggested quality to the act or the
actor being up to the writer or speaker.  But, as stated, the
increasing trend in modern English is--whenever there is a plausible
option--to associate the quality with the actor rather than the act,
which (also as noted) does tend toward more effective prose.
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 08 Nov 2006 00:41 GMT
> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> option--to associate the quality with the actor rather than the act,
> which (also as noted) does tend toward more effective prose.

Wow. I better bone up on some grammar 101 before saying anything more.

Except I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of
words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural
world.  Sometimes it also leads to ambiguities.  Golfers no longer
claim to have "done well" on the US PGA Tour after a low round - they
all "did good", leaving one to wonder whether philanthropy was involved.
Robert Bannister - 08 Nov 2006 23:52 GMT
[snipped as well as I can]
>>The trend I mean is that of treating ever more verbs as copulative.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>off, lie, look, loom, prove, rank, remain, rest, run, seem, sit, smell,
>>sound, stand, stay, taste, turn, turn out.

 form the equivalence takes.

>>The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is
>>thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to
>>express our thoughts with precision and elegance.

>>All that said, I think the particular example given was simply the sort
>>of swapping of horses mid-stream that often happens in spontaneous
>>speech:

> Except I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of
> words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural
> world.  Sometimes it also leads to ambiguities.  Golfers no longer
> claim to have "done well" on the US PGA Tour after a low round - they
> all "did good", leaving one to wonder whether philanthropy was involved.

I thought Eric summed up the current situation pretty well, but it
doesn't mean we all have to be happy with it. With the "act
disrespectful" example, I can see situations where this would be quite
acceptable even to me, but I could not accept "act disrespectful
to(wards) someone" - in some way, my lexicon has a verb "to be
disrespectful to(wards)" which would map onto "seem, appear, become",
but not onto "act, behave".

Of course, I get annoyed with myself every time I answer "Good" to
"How're goin'?".

Signature

Rob Bannister

Eric Walker - 09 Nov 2006 01:00 GMT
[...]

> With the "act disrespectful" example, I can see situations where
> this would be quite acceptable even to me, . . .

I had missed that, but I suppose the bare statement "I would not act
disrespectful" could be considered a copulative use of "act"; certainly
few would quarrel with "I would not wish to seem disrespectful"
(compare Ben Jonson's "look superciliously while I present you"[1] to
see how the evolution has proceeded).

>      . . . but I could not accept
> "act disrespectful to(wards) someone" - in some way, my lexicon
> has a verb "to be disrespectful to(wards)" which would map onto
> "seem, appear, become", but not onto "act, behave".

I wonder.  How about an extension of the earlier comparison: "I would
not wish to seem disrespectful toward you"?

I'd say that "act" (in this sense of "present the appearance of" is a
verb that might, in time--perhaps not so much time--come to have a
definite copulative sense, but which has not yet quite reached that
status.

As to "I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of
words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural
world," I have to disagree.  It is not a matter of "ignoring" adverbs,
it is a matter of using them to their right purpose.  Look back at the
Jonson quotation: have we "lost" something by no longer finding "look
superciliously while I present you" tolerable English?  To elaborate:

Adverbs--"the dust bin of grammar" as some or t'other rightly said--are
really of three quite distinct sorts: what we may call "ordinary
adverbs", which modulate the sense of a verb; what I tend to call
"adclausals" (more commonly if foolishly called "sentence adverbs"),
which modulate the sense of an entire clause; and what, for lack of a
better term, one might call "paramodifiers", which further modulate the
force of some other modifier.

"Ordinary adverbs" (which can be identified by, if nothing else, their
position right after--excepting any superposed paramodifiers--the verb
they modulate), when used rightly, tell us something about the action
or process described by the verb they are associated with; but the
question often arises as to whether the quality being implied in the
verb is not in reality better associated with the actor than the act.

To repeat an example, we can say, without in any technical sense
committing an error, that "John sailed the boat single-handedly," and
one finds just such forms all over the place[2].  But if we stop to ask
ourselves with what the single-handedness (single-handed meaning
"alone", "unaided") is most reasonably associated, John or his sailing,
probably 97% of us will agree that the quality of single-handedness is
more justly associated with John than with his sailing.

Now "single-handed" is an egregious case: it is hard, when we really
consider, to think of any case in which the alone-ness of the actor is
better assigned to the doing of the deed he or she performed unaided.
Other ordinary adverbs are as definitely associated with the act as
"single-handed" is with the actor: "He walked slowly down the
gangplank."  It is the many modifiers that could be taken in either
sense--as stating an attribute of the actor or of the act--that require
our careful attention; and the best advice is to assign the quality,
wherever plausible, to the actor, by using an adjective, and that is
the modern trend (that is, "plausible" takes in ever more territory by
the year).

[1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, while I
present you."     -- "Epicoene: Or, The Silent Woman", 1609.

[2] "I saved SpongeBob single-handedly."
"The man who almost single-handedly revived the handheld computer
industry."
CDB - 09 Nov 2006 14:29 GMT
[...]
> I had missed that, but I suppose the bare statement "I would not act
> disrespectful" could be considered a copulative use of "act";
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> "look
> superciliously while I present you" tolerable English?

> [1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, while I
> present you."     -- "Epicoene: Or, The Silent Woman", 1609.

I must be missing something.  Do you not read "look" there to mean
"gaze" rather than "seem"?  That would make the usage quite
acceptable, IMO.
Eric Walker - 09 Nov 2006 22:35 GMT
> [...]
> > [1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, while I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "gaze" rather than "seem"?  That would make the usage quite
> acceptable, IMO.

I think it clear that it means "seem", and so apparently do the various
usage manuals that cite it.  (It is particularly apposite in that
Jonson was careful about his grammar, and even wrote a grammar manual.)
The context is:

"Come, master doctor, and master parson, look to your parts now,
and discharge them bravely: you are well set forth, perform it
as well. If you chance to be out, do not confess it with standing
still, or humming, or gaping one at another: but go on, and talk
aloud and eagerly; use vehement action, and only remember your
terms, and you are safe. Let the matter go where it will: you
have many will do so. But at first be very solemn, and grave like
your garments, though you loose your selves after, and skip out
like a brace of jugglers on a table. Here he comes: set your
faces, and look superciliously, while I present you."

I daresay that "set your faces" combined with "be at first very solemn"
makes it manifest that the doctor and parson are being instructed to
put on a supercilious manner or seeming.
CDB - 10 Nov 2006 01:04 GMT
>> [...]
>>> [1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously,
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> in that Jonson was careful about his grammar, and even wrote a
> grammar manual.) The context is:

> [text from Act V, Scene III, snipped for brevity]

I haven't seen the usage manuals that you refer to; do they give
reasons for their interpretation?  Do they give other examples of the
same usage from Jonson?  It seems to me that a writer so careful
should be given the benefit of the doubt.

> I daresay that "set your faces" combined with "be at first very
> solemn" makes it manifest that the doctor and parson are being
> instructed to put on a supercilious manner or seeming.

As far as I can see, those instructions are compatible with either
interpretation of "look", since to gaze superciliously ("to quiz",
indeed, if the word had existed then) would help to produce such an
appearance.  It doesn't seem to me, absent the support I asked about
above, that either reading can be considered conclusive.  (I admit
that I searched through the rest of the scene in vain for comments
from Morose about the way in which the impostors were looking at him:
a point in favour of your position.)
Eric Walker - 10 Nov 2006 02:11 GMT
> I haven't seen the usage manuals that you refer to; do they give
> reasons for their interpretation?  Do they give other examples of the
> same usage from Jonson?  It seems to me that a writer so careful
> should be given the benefit of the doubt.

My unmentionable browser just ate a medium-long reply that I don't feel
like re-typing in its entirety.

You can find a discussion citing that Jonson line in, at the least,
Follett's _Modern American Usage_ at "Adverbs, Vexatious".  The point
of citing Jonson is not that he is in error, but the opposite: his use
is an especially good demonstration of how syntax has evolved exactly
because he was so careful that his grammar be correct by contemporary
standards.

Also cited is a reviewer who referred to the book _And Quietly Flows
the Don_ when the established English form of the title is _And Quiet
Flows the Don_.

The bottom line is simply that it has been and is a long-running trend
in English to consider ever more verb uses as copulative.
CDB - 10 Nov 2006 16:09 GMT
>> I haven't seen the usage manuals that you refer to; do they give
>> reasons for their interpretation?  Do they give other examples of
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> My unmentionable browser just ate a medium-long reply that I don't
> feel like re-typing in its entirety.

Good name for a dog, though.

> You can find a discussion citing that Jonson line in, at the least,
> Follett's _Modern American Usage_ at "Adverbs, Vexatious".  The
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The bottom line is simply that it has been and is a long-running
> trend in English to consider ever more verb uses as copulative.

Thank you for the reference.  I will try to get hold of the work at
the library.  I have to say, though, that I'm not so much interested
in the general modern usage, which is pretty clear (and on which I
believe you're right), as in specific early examples

I don't have OED access, but my SOD gives "look grimly" from
(unspecified) Shakespeare. I turned up two examples:

From _Anthony and Cleopatra_, "the augurers
Say they know not, they cannot tell; look grimly,
And dare not speak their knowledge";

and from _A Winter's Tale_, "We have landed in ill time: the skies
look grimly
And threaten present blusters."

The SOD also indicates that the use of the verb to mean "appear"
started in the late 16th century.  What strikes me about the three
examples here is that they are all ambiguous.  It doesn't take much
stretching, even in the case of the skies, to interpret the word
"look" as "gaze".  What we are seeing may be the transition by
reinterpretation, from a metaphorical use of the old meaning to a
generally accepted new meaning,

The word is too common for googling, and none of the Shakespeare
concordances I have tried knows what "*ly" means; so I'm stymied, for
now, in the search for further examples.  But it's an interesting idea
and I'm going to try to stay alert for more.

I found a reference to an an article that may be relevant to the
question:

Kristin Killie: On the use of current intuition as a bias in
historical linguistics: The case of the LOOK+ -LY construction in
English. In: Richardo Bermudez-Otero, et al. (eds.): Generative theory
and corpus studies: A dialogue from 10. ICEHL, Topics in English
linguistics. Berlin, New York: Mouton de Gruyter, 2000. 16p. ;

but I've got a hope of ever seeing it (although I could in fact care
less).
Robert Bannister - 10 Nov 2006 00:07 GMT
> As to "I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of
> words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural
> world," I have to disagree.  It is not a matter of "ignoring" adverbs,
> it is a matter of using them to their right purpose.

In German, there is no difference in form between adjectives and
adverbs, and I presume this was the case in Old English too. So I
suppose we can justifiably claim that -ly marker is really a modern
invention.

We know that a small number of -ly adjectives (eg poorly) exist, and
that the equivalent German ending -lich can appear equally happily on
adjectives and adverbs. Still, we are talking about modern English, and
I still feel mildly irritated at some of the newer uses.
Signature

Rob Bannister

barkerplace@hotmail.com - 22 Nov 2006 23:20 GMT
What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than
lower-case?  I would interpret it to mean something conventionally
thought to be good that may not be.

> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 86 lines]
> option--to associate the quality with the actor rather than the act,
> which (also as noted) does tend toward more effective prose.
Nick Atty - 23 Nov 2006 07:47 GMT
>What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than
>lower-case?  I would interpret it to mean something conventionally
>thought to be good that may not be.

Roughly that.  It comes from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That although has spread
widely.

Not putting your stuff at the top of the existing material, but below or
interspersed as appropriate is a Good Thing, snipping unwanted material
from the person or people you are quoting is another.

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Mark Brader - 23 Nov 2006 08:09 GMT
> Roughly that.  It comes from
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That ...

Well, no, actually it comes from a book called 1066 and All That,
not from a Wikipedia article about it.

See also the Jargon File.
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Mark Brader, Toronto | "Courtesy, hell.  We're programmers not humans."
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CDB - 23 Nov 2006 13:50 GMT
>> What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than
>> lower-case?  I would interpret it to mean something conventionally
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That although has spread
> widely.

I see your wiki and I raise you another one.  Could be a Martha
Stewart reference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Thing
Wood Avens - 23 Nov 2006 14:45 GMT
>>> What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than
>>> lower-case?  I would interpret it to mean something conventionally
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Thing

Gosh.  I imagined Martha Stewart to be old-ish, but I didn't realise
she pre-dated Sellar and Yeatman.

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CDB - 23 Nov 2006 16:26 GMT
>>>> What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather
>>>> than lower-case?  I would interpret it to mean something
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Gosh.  I imagined Martha Stewart to be old-ish, but I didn't realise
> she pre-dated Sellar and Yeatman.

I don't suppose she does; but the OP wanted the "significance" of the
phrase, and it might well be that a contemporary user of Good Thing
had her in mind rather than them, however much one might deplore the
thought.
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 24 Nov 2006 16:52 GMT
"The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is
thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to
express our thoughts with precision and elegance."

So how does your definition apply to the usage above?

> >What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than
> >lower-case?  I would interpret it to mean something conventionally
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)
> My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon
Nick Atty - 24 Nov 2006 20:17 GMT
>"The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is
>thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to
>express our thoughts with precision and elegance."
>
>So how does your definition apply to the usage above?

Putting it above

>> Not putting your stuff at the top of the existing material, but below or
>> interspersed as appropriate is a Good Thing, snipping unwanted material
>> from the person or people you are quoting is another.

along with a lot that he left unsnipped.

When you show that you can understand my postings, I might take the
trouble to reply to you.   But on the current evidence, I'd be wasting
both our times.
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Peter Moylan - 26 Nov 2006 12:24 GMT
> "The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is
> thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to
> express our thoughts with precision and elegance."
>
> So how does your definition apply to the usage above?

>> Not putting your stuff at the top of the existing material, but below or
>> interspersed as appropriate is a Good Thing, snipping unwanted material
>> from the person or people you are quoting is another.

Above what? Are you sure you didn't mean "below"?

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vorotyntsev@yahoo.com - 08 Nov 2006 01:11 GMT
> Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that
> I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>  Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly".  Is there a term
> for this change?

It's a red-neckism.
 
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