Adjectives for adverbs
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barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 20:10 GMT Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to me".
On US TV, adjectival forms seem to be supplanting traditional adverbs. Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly". Is there a term for this change?
Mark Brader - 07 Nov 2006 21:17 GMT > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to > me". > > On US TV, adjectival forms seem to be supplanting traditional adverbs. This is not an adverbial use. I don't know the name for it, but there's a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act" that are commonly used with an adjective. "Feel big", "look cold", "seem hungry", "act disrespectful".
"Act disrespectfully" would also be correct, but it's a different construction that happens to work out to the same meaning.
> Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly". I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate. Does someone have time to look up how old it is?
> Is there a term for this change? Is there a change?
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My text in this article is in the public domain.
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 21:28 GMT > > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Is there a change? Maybe "act.." was a bad example. I think "run quick" is better.
I think that there is a change. No doubt sentences of this type have been around for centuries, but now they seem to be the standard rather than an acceptable alternative. Let me be clearer with an action verb that cannot be a substitute for "to be". Would you consider "she spoke disrespectful" to be correct?
> -- > Mark Brader | "I don't have to stay here to be insulted." > Toronto | "I realize that. You're insulted everywhere, I imagine." > msb@vex.net | -- Theodore Sturgeon > > My text in this article is in the public domain. Mike Lyle - 07 Nov 2006 21:45 GMT [...]
> > I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established > > one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate. Does someone have time [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > that cannot be a substitute for "to be". Would you consider "she spoke > disrespectful" to be correct? I think it's just that people now feel much more free to use informal language in public than they used to. I'd never say "She spoke disrespectful" myself, but as Mark says, these forms are unremarkable in the speech of "the man in the street", and literature suggests they probably always have been.
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barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 22:01 GMT > [...] > > > I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -- > Mike. I think there is a far greater reluctance nowadays to correct someone else, especially if he or she is a wealthy celeb. When one of these guys says "a phenomena", nodody jumps in to put him right.
Robert Lieblich - 07 Nov 2006 23:56 GMT [ ... ]
> I think there is a far greater reluctance nowadays to correct someone > else, especially if he or she is a wealthy celeb. When one of these > guys says "a phenomena", nodody jumps in to put him right. English usage seems to be changing ever faster, perhaps because there are so many more words in circulation. "Media" is now, for all practical purposes, a singular: I read respectable authors in respectable publications, and they're writing "The media is ..." all over the place. "Phenomena" and "criteria" will soon join "agenda" and "data" (yes, "data") as singulars, and their naturalized English plurals -- adding "s" -- will soon follow. Most of those who let such things go by aren't really letting them go by -- they simply don't realize that there's anything wrong. The rest don't see the percentage in telling a 350-pound offensive tackle that he's misused a word with a Greek origin.
I seem to be saying this more and more: You don't have to like such usages, and you certainly don't have to adopt them, but trying to extirpate them is futile. Ask me about "as such" some time.
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barkerplace@hotmail.com - 08 Nov 2006 16:44 GMT > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Bob Lieblich > Realist It would be less annoying if the proper singulars remained standard and the plurals were formed by adding an "s". I guess the natural tendency to exaggeration rules that out.
Bacterium is still used in pathology. In clinical medicine these guys never travel alone so bacteria is usually accurate.
Richard R. Hershberger - 10 Nov 2006 16:34 GMT > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > respectable publications, and they're writing "The media is ..." all > over the place. The point that seems to be routinely overlooked in the "singular media" discussion is that this is a semantic shift, with grammatical number just along for the ride. If we are talking about one more more specific modes of information transfer, the singular is still "medium" and "media" is still plural:
"Television is an inferior medium for news. Radio and newspapers are superior media."
When we want to refer not to some specific collection of media but to the collective institution of the news or entertainment industries, we use the word as a mass noun, and mass nouns in English are grammatically singular. This is not cause for a sigh of resignation. It is a development that increases the language's expressiveness: a Good Thing.
When I see a writer use "The media are..." I ask myself "Which ones?" If that question doesn't fit, the writer is using the "plural media" badly, and I suspect him of blindly following rules he doesn't understand.
At the very least, it would be more useful to discuss the development of "media" as a mass noun, not the development of it as singular. Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er, phenomenon.
Richard R. Hershberger
The Grammer Genious - 10 Nov 2006 16:43 GMT "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhersh@acme.com> wrote <...>
> At the very least, it would be more useful to discuss the development > of "media" as a mass noun, not the development of it as singular. > Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er, > phenomenon. Except, what is your opinion of a U.S. government sticker on a CD that says: "This media has been scanned for viruses."
Evan Kirshenbaum - 10 Nov 2006 17:18 GMT > "Richard R. Hershberger" <rrhersh@acme.com> wrote > <...> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Except, what is your opinion of a U.S. government sticker on a CD > that says: "This media has been scanned for viruses." My opinion is that it grates, but also that it's a further sense that never had "medium" as a singular. It used to be that "media" was used for different *types* of things that you could store data on, but in the same way that "film" was a medium but a particular roll of film was never "a medium", so CDs as a way of storing were media, but individual discs weren't.
The OED implies that it's been used for a while, though:
2. _Computing_. A physical object (as a disk, tape cartridge, etc.) used for the storage of data. Cf. MEDIUM n. 4e.
1982 _ICL News_ July 2/5 Media is the means of entry, output, exchange or storage of data handled by the operator and removable from the peripheral. It includes disc packs and cartridges, flexible disc cartridges, magnetic-tapes, autoload collars, tape cassettes, punch cards and printer stationery.
1990 _Metals & Minerals_ July 422/1 The format of the storage material or, as it is often termed, the media, is almost always that of a tape or disc.
1992 _UnixWorld_ Apr. 131 (advt.) The 1 GB CY-2000 optical disk drive saves and restores files at hard disk speed. All on a removable media that protects your data.
Sense 4e of "medium":
Any physical material (as tape, disk, paper, etc.) used for recording or reproducing data, images, or sound.
is cited to 1941.
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Paul Wolff - 10 Nov 2006 20:31 GMT >> English usage seems to be changing ever faster, perhaps because there >> are so many more words in circulation. "Media" is now, for all [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er, >phenomenon. Just to muddy the waters, I thoroughly dislike the mass noun 'media'; for that reason I strive to speak and write of the 'mass media' when that's what I mean. But I'm just reactionary, I know.
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Eric Walker - 11 Nov 2006 00:39 GMT [...]
> The point that seems to be routinely overlooked in the "singular media" > discussion is that this is a semantic shift, with grammatical number [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > use the word as a mass noun, and mass nouns in English are > grammatically singular. But are they not also characteristically in singular *form*? "The fruits grown in California", but "an abundance of good fruit"; "various kinds of fishes", but "a boatload of fish"; "the peoples of Europe", but "the British people". By analogy, one would expect the collective signifying all the communications media as an undifferentiated thing to be "medium", as it was when "press" (not "presses") served that need. (I'm far from convinced it doesn't still serve it: when I was a member of whatever it is, we who had them--and those who issued them--called them "press passes", even though many, like me, were not working with a print medium; and we had entry to the "press box", not the media box.)
That lack of correspondence of forms is one reason many doubt that this is a new collective a-birthing, and rather is just a common solecism.
> This is not cause for a sigh of resignation. That depends on which it is: new form or error.
> It is a development that increases the language's expressiveness: a > Good Thing. A development that augments the language's expressiveness is assuredly A Good Thing, but does this? What is the gain from referring to most or all of the mass-communication media with "the media is" as opposed to "the media are"?
I for one don't quite know why the old, established "press" has to be seen as antiquated. The concept now includes reportage conveyed by electromagnetic transmission as well as printing presses, but simple and obvious sense extensions of that sort are routine in English, and the term was--and, I'd say, still is--lively and well entrenched in the tongue. "Media" strikes me as an artificial, trendy "we're with it, man" linguistic hula hoop.
I've argued before that singular media is a bad idea:
"Media" as a singular is thus bad business in two ways: first, it severly muddies the distinction between singular and plural forms, for there remains a host of legitimate uses for a plural "media". Second (and, I daresay, graver), singular "media" is a conceptual meat grinder, making verbal hamburger out of things that deserve to be kept reasonably well separated in our thoughts: there are numerous substantial and important differences of several sorts, inherent in the nature of each medium, between the treatment of news by newspapers, radio, television, and now the internet; to lump them up as one monolithic thing needlessly fuzzes comprehension.
We do not typically refer to a newspaper as "a medium" because we have the handy word "newspaper", which fully comprises the idea of a medium for delivering news. With the others, we need to rely on the context to suggest that we are referring to them in their capacity as deliverers of news (or whatever it is that Fox delivers), but that is rarely if ever a difficulty. (Notice that we no longer feel a need to say "the news media"--bare "media" suffices just because the context is invariably sufficiently defining.) By keeping "media" plural, we have a constant reminder that several rather different things that work rather differently are being rolled up in one word.
> When I see a writer use "The media are..." I ask myself "Which ones?" > If that question doesn't fit, the writer is using the "plural media" > badly, and I suspect him of blindly following rules he doesn't > understand. To the contrary: that you ask yourself "which ones" is important. One who would say "the media is" had best be 110% sure that his remarks apply equally to each and every one of the various media he is grinding up in that phrase--and the odds are high that they do not so apply. The rule he is following, blindly or not, is that we use plural-form verbs with plural subjects, and in the majority--arguably the great majority--of cases, the subject remains plural in a very real as well as a merely formal sense. If he is perfectly sure that his remark is perfectly general, he can say "the press" with virtually no fear that anyone will think his observations apply only to print media.
> At the very least, it would be more useful to discuss the development > of "media" as a mass noun, not the development of it as singular. > Grammatical number is purely incidental to the phenomena... er, > phenomenon. It might be if it were, but it does not give the appearance of being so.
Mike Lyle - 08 Nov 2006 18:17 GMT [...]
> > I think it's just that people now feel much more free to use informal > > language in public than they used to. I'd never say "She spoke [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > else, especially if he or she is a wealthy celeb. When one of these > guys says "a phenomena", nodody jumps in to put him right. Well, allowing for what Bob said, which is true enough, you don't have to be rich or famous or a heavyweight: few interviewers are likely to be rude enough to correct an interviewee in mid-flight. Seventy or more years ago, the BBC probably wasn't the only broadcaster which helped interviewees to prepare written answers to be read out on the air. I don't want to go back to those unspontaneous days, even though I wish more people took a pride in their English.
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Millicent Tendency - 08 Nov 2006 12:48 GMT >> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that >> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >that cannot be a substitute for "to be". Would you consider "she spoke >disrespectful" to be correct? Aha! This has been known for several decades as a characteristic feature of RonKneE: the classic example is "the lads done brilliant, Brian". Peter Cook, Clive James... lots of people were commenting on it in the Seventies.
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Donna Richoux - 09 Nov 2006 11:49 GMT > Maybe "act.." was a bad example. I think "run quick" is better. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that cannot be a substitute for "to be". Would you consider "she spoke > disrespectful" to be correct? I find only 13 Google hits for "spoke disrespectful". It's not a thing that gets said much. So I question your "now they seem to be the standard."
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
lovek323@gmail.com - 10 Nov 2006 10:13 GMT We all agree that it should be "spoke disrespectfully" rather than "spoke disrespectful". Using the adjectival form when the adverbial would have been correct is indeed a very common mistake. Some of you say that we should not correct people on their errors, but I disagree. What is disturbing is when an English teacher makes these errors. Certainly it is not always appropriate to correct people, but I believe that it is sometimes appropriate. I know that I personally benefit greatly from the correction of my grammar.
> <barkerpl...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Maybe "act.." was a bad example. I think "run quick" is better. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > -- > Best -- Donna Richoux The Grammer Genious - 10 Nov 2006 14:09 GMT <lovek323@gmail.com> wrote :
> <...>Using the adjectival form when the adverbial > would have been correct is indeed a very common mistake. > <...> A point to be made is that most English words are not intrinsically of a single word class. Function determines word class. A word is an adverb if it is used as an adverb. It may be incorrectly so used, but it is still an adverb.
Also there are people who think that just because the word "slowly" exists, the form "slow" should never be used as an adverb (there are other examples of such pairs). Those people are mistaken.
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 22 Nov 2006 23:17 GMT A colleague just advised me to "drive careful". Now that DOES have a large following on Google.
> > Maybe "act.." was a bad example. I think "run quick" is better. > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that gets said much. So I question your "now they seem to be the > standard." barkerplace@hotmail.com - 07 Nov 2006 21:43 GMT > > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > My text in this article is in the public domain. Just googled "act disrespectful" and it's all over the place; even McCain uses it. To me "act" in this sense is closer to "behave" than "be", but "behave disrespectful", which sounds very wrong to my ear, is also widely used on the Net.
mb - 09 Nov 2006 01:18 GMT > > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate. Does someone have time > to look up how old it is? Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine" old enough?
Donna Richoux - 09 Nov 2006 01:29 GMT > > > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine" > old enough? Alford writes about this in the 1866 "A Plea for the Queen's English," p. 203. Basically he makes the point that these adjectives are perfectly fine as long as they are one syllable, like "The moon shines bright." He says
...but we can hardly say, 'The moon shines brilliant.' What may be the reason for his I do not pretend to say; I only state what seems to be the fact.
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Mark Brader - 09 Nov 2006 01:45 GMT Someone posted:
> > > Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly". I (Mark Brader) wrote:
> > I think this is not a so much a non-"traditional" usage as an established > > one that prescriptivists have tried to eliminate. Does someone have time > > to look up how old it is? Another M.B. writes:
> Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine" > old enough? Well, since, it doesn't contain the word "quick", I'd say the point is moot.
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Peter Duncanson - 09 Nov 2006 12:23 GMT >> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that >> > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >Is "... wheels ... grind exceeding slow, but they grind exceeding fine" >old enough? Do you know which translation that is?
The version I'm familiar with is (in Bartlett's Quotations at Bartleby.com and in two printed books of quotations):
Though the mills of God grind slowly, yet they grind exceeding small; Though with patience He stands waiting, with exactness grinds He all.
Baron Friedrich van Logau (1604-1655) translated by H W Longfellow (1807-1882)
Strictly speaking "exceeding" should be "exceedingly", but that has one too many syllabubbles.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Eric Walker - 09 Nov 2006 23:00 GMT > Do you know which translation that is? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Baron Friedrich van Logau (1604-1655) > translated by H W Longfellow (1807-1882) Googles on the fragments <mills of god grind slow, but> and <mills of god grind slowly, but> shows that the "slow" form is not quite 9% of instances (38 vs. 403).
The attribution to van Logau may be inaccurate--one source states that "This expression comes from ancient Greek, translated as 'The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind small.' In English it appeared in George Herbert's _Jacula Prudentum_ (1640) as 'God's mill grinds slow but sure.'" The date is roughly contemporary with van Logau; possibly both were using some common source.
Another source attributes "The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind to powder" to Plutarch (_Moralia_, translated by John Philips, 1878). This link--
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0009-837X%28191007%295%3A3%3C363%3AAGPIMI%3E2.0 .CO%3B2-2&size=LARGE
--is of interest.
Clearly, there is a vivid tradition of rendering the saying with "slow"; my guess would be that such renderings are seeking a rhetorical parallel with "fine", though the two uses are arguably not true grammatical parallels.
Donna Richoux - 09 Nov 2006 23:10 GMT > > Do you know which translation that is? > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > but sure.'" The date is roughly contemporary with van Logau; possibly > both were using some common source. The Oxford Dictionary of English Proverbs has two citations in Greek, with translations:
Sextus Empiricus ... The mills of the gods grind slowly, but they grind small. Plutarch De sera numb. vind. ... I don't see any use in these 'late-grinding' mills of the Gods.
 Signature Best wishes -- Donna Richoux
jan-erikskm@hotmail.com - 09 Nov 2006 04:24 GMT > > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > commonly used with an adjective. "Feel big", "look cold", "seem hungry", > "act disrespectful". You mean "subject predicatives" here.. if that's what it's called in English.. It tells something about the subject of the sentence.. "to be" also takes predicatives.. But I would say that "act" needs an adverb.., it tells about THE WAY someone acts.. Jan-Erik.
Mark Brader - 09 Nov 2006 08:27 GMT Mark Brader:
> > ... there's a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act" > > that are commonly used with an adjective. "Feel big", "look cold", > > "seem hungry", "act disrespectful". "Jan-Erik":
> But I would say that "act" needs an adverb.., it tells about THE WAY > someone acts.. No, not in this usage. If your cat is standing by the empty food bowl and meowing, he's not acting hungrily -- he's acting hungry. And if Faith Hill wasn't joking, she was acting disrespectful.
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jan-erikskm@hotmail.com - 10 Nov 2006 01:54 GMT > Mark Brader: > > > ... there's a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act" [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and meowing, he's not acting hungrily -- he's acting hungry. And if > Faith Hill wasn't joking, she was acting disrespectful. It's an interesting point you've got here, but I think we need to bring semantics on here. This is obviously two different meanings of the verb "act" in English. Where and adverb would be needed after "act", "act" would have the same meaning as "behave", wouldn't you say? "To act/behave disrespectfully". In the example with the cat, I assume "is acting" can be replaced with "appears to be" or "seems"(?). So I agree with you when you say you'd rather see an adjective than an adverb there, but I've never heard the verb "act" being used in a context like that. I'd assume the cat doesn't just 'pretend' to be hungry but is really hungry..
Eric Walker - 10 Nov 2006 02:35 GMT [...]
> It's an interesting point you've got here, but I think we need to bring > semantics on here. This is obviously two different meanings of the verb > "act" in English. Just so. From a decent desk dictionary:
act, v.i.-- 1. to perform on the stage; play a role 2. to behave as though playing a role ---------- 4. to behave; comport oneself ["act like a lady"] 9. to appear to be [he acted very angry]
Note especially the adjectival "angry" in that last definition.
> Where an adverb would be needed after "act", "act" > would have the same meaning as "behave", wouldn't you say? "To > act/behave disrespectfully". . . . The choice of adverb vs. adjective simply reflects whether we are assigning the quality to the actor or the act. If we feel that Ms. Hill's actions showed disrespect, we use the adverb; if we feel that Ms. Hill herself manifested disrespect, we use the adjective.
Obviously, there is no bright line separating the concepts: Ms. Hill's manifesting disrespect would derive from her actions, while by performing those actions she would be acting the part of one who is disrespectful. It's a matter of instinct or taste concerning where the conceptual emphasis belongs.
But, bottom line for the original question, I for one (having reconsidered my original answer) don't think that the adjectival use can be ruled erroneous.
Mark Brader - 10 Nov 2006 09:42 GMT I (Mark Brader) and "Jan-Erik" wrote:
>>>> ... there's a class of verbs such as "feel", "look", "seem", and "act" >>>> that are commonly used with an adjective. "Feel big", "look cold", >>>> "seem hungry", "act disrespectful".
>>> But I would say that "act" needs an adverb.., it tells about THE WAY >>> someone acts..
>> No, not in this usage. If your cat is standing by the empty food bowl >> and meowing, he's not acting hungrily -- he's acting hungry. And if >> Faith Hill wasn't joking, she was acting disrespectful.
> It's an interesting point you've got here, but I think we need to bring > semantics on here. This is obviously two different meanings of the verb > "act" in English. No, it's the same meaning. If it was the other meaning, the original sentence would have said "disrespectfully".
> Where and adverb would be needed after "act", "act" > would have the same meaning as "behave", wouldn't you say? "To > act/behave disrespectfully". Yes.
> In the example with the cat, I assume "is acting" can be replaced > with "appears to be" or "seems"(?). More precisely, "is behaving in a way so as to seem".
> So I agree with you when you say you'd rather see an adjective than > an adverb there, but I've never heard the verb "act" being used in > a context like that. Now you have.
> I'd assume the cat doesn't just 'pretend' to be hungry but is > really hungry.. The cat's motives are irrelevant, only his behavior. This is not "acting" in the sense of what actors do.
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John Holmes - 11 Nov 2006 06:00 GMT > I (Mark Brader) and "Jan-Erik" wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The cat's motives are irrelevant, only his behavior. This is not > "acting" in the sense of what actors do. Oh, yes it is. It's just that cats are the ultimate method actors.
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Eric Walker - 07 Nov 2006 23:38 GMT > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly". Is there a term > for this change? Not that I know of, but: one, it is a major, long-developing, continuing, important trend in the development of modern English; and two, I don't think that is an example of it.
The trend I mean is that of treating ever more verbs as copulative. A copulative verb is one that does not actually predicate, but only acts as a formal "placeholder" expressing a connection or equality between the subject and the nominal or formal predicate, such that that "predicate"--applying to the subject noun, not the connecting verb--needs to be adjectival, not adverbial. (Another common name for copulative verbs is "linking verbs".)
The superlative copulative verb is "be", which is always and ever copulative: "He is strong", never "He is strongly". There is no hard and fast list of or rule for selecting or recognizing other copulative verbs, but as they generally suggest a *connection* between the subject and the nominal predicate, they are typically verbs of "seeming", such as (in some instances depending on the particular sense intended): appear, become, come, fall, feel, get, go, grow, happen, keep, leave off, lie, look, loom, prove, rank, remain, rest, run, seem, sit, smell, sound, stand, stay, taste, turn, turn out.
As can be seen, all of those--in at least one sense of each--are verbs chiefly relating some quality to the subject: "it loomed large in his legend", "the well ran dry", " the air smelled damp", and so on. In most or all cases, we could replace the subject verb with a simple "be" (or whatever form of "be" is appropriate for the context)--but, did we do so, we would lose some of the sense or tone of the linking. That is the point of and strength of copulative verbs: they allow us to express the equivalence that "be" does, but shade or modulate our expressed sense of the equivalence by using a verb that more precisely expresses the nature or form the equivalence takes.
The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to express our thoughts with precision and elegance.
It is not, of course, that most, or even many, users of the tongue have ever heard the phrase "copulative verb", or made a conscious decision about the form to use or its grammatical significance. The key, and what undoubtedly drives their choice, is a clear intuition that the relation between subject and predicate is one of correspondence, not true full predication, whether or not they know those terms.
All that said, I think the particular example given was simply the sort of swapping of horses mid-stream that often happens in spontaneous speech: most likely what was meant was either "the idea that I would act disrespectfully towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to me" or "the idea that I would be disrespectful to a fellow musician is unimaginable to me", with the two getting mixed in the saying.
Likewise, to "run quick" is a malaprop, but quite likely arises from the increasing tendency noted above, in that many speakers now find the copulative sense as natural as--or even more natural than--the more common predicative finite sense for many verbs, especially (it seems) common, short ones, even when that choice is in error.
It is worth noting that virtually all style and usage manuals concur that adjectives are inherently more effective (or "powerful") than adverbs: adjectives are strong, adverbs weak. The statement in classic older form--
"The subdivisions operate independently of the parent company."
--now feels needlessly "stuffy" to many sensibilities, which find--
"The subdivisions operate independent of the parent company."
--much more natural, with "operate" being construed as copulative, connecting (in a particular way) the adjectival quality of independence to the subject noun "subdivisions", rather than describing the manner in which subdivisions perform their operating.
In a great many uses either form, adjective or adverb, can be used--
"He managed it all single-handed[ly]."
--with the choice of assigning the suggested quality to the act or the actor being up to the writer or speaker. But, as stated, the increasing trend in modern English is--whenever there is a plausible option--to associate the quality with the actor rather than the act, which (also as noted) does tend toward more effective prose.
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 08 Nov 2006 00:41 GMT > > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > option--to associate the quality with the actor rather than the act, > which (also as noted) does tend toward more effective prose. Wow. I better bone up on some grammar 101 before saying anything more.
Except I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural world. Sometimes it also leads to ambiguities. Golfers no longer claim to have "done well" on the US PGA Tour after a low round - they all "did good", leaving one to wonder whether philanthropy was involved.
Robert Bannister - 08 Nov 2006 23:52 GMT [snipped as well as I can]
>>The trend I mean is that of treating ever more verbs as copulative. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>off, lie, look, loom, prove, rank, remain, rest, run, seem, sit, smell, >>sound, stand, stay, taste, turn, turn out. form the equivalence takes.
>>The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is >>thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to >>express our thoughts with precision and elegance.
>>All that said, I think the particular example given was simply the sort >>of swapping of horses mid-stream that often happens in spontaneous >>speech:
> Except I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of > words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural > world. Sometimes it also leads to ambiguities. Golfers no longer > claim to have "done well" on the US PGA Tour after a low round - they > all "did good", leaving one to wonder whether philanthropy was involved. I thought Eric summed up the current situation pretty well, but it doesn't mean we all have to be happy with it. With the "act disrespectful" example, I can see situations where this would be quite acceptable even to me, but I could not accept "act disrespectful to(wards) someone" - in some way, my lexicon has a verb "to be disrespectful to(wards)" which would map onto "seem, appear, become", but not onto "act, behave".
Of course, I get annoyed with myself every time I answer "Good" to "How're goin'?".
 Signature Rob Bannister
Eric Walker - 09 Nov 2006 01:00 GMT [...]
> With the "act disrespectful" example, I can see situations where > this would be quite acceptable even to me, . . . I had missed that, but I suppose the bare statement "I would not act disrespectful" could be considered a copulative use of "act"; certainly few would quarrel with "I would not wish to seem disrespectful" (compare Ben Jonson's "look superciliously while I present you"[1] to see how the evolution has proceeded).
> . . . but I could not accept > "act disrespectful to(wards) someone" - in some way, my lexicon > has a verb "to be disrespectful to(wards)" which would map onto > "seem, appear, become", but not onto "act, behave". I wonder. How about an extension of the earlier comparison: "I would not wish to seem disrespectful toward you"?
I'd say that "act" (in this sense of "present the appearance of" is a verb that might, in time--perhaps not so much time--come to have a definite copulative sense, but which has not yet quite reached that status.
As to "I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural world," I have to disagree. It is not a matter of "ignoring" adverbs, it is a matter of using them to their right purpose. Look back at the Jonson quotation: have we "lost" something by no longer finding "look superciliously while I present you" tolerable English? To elaborate:
Adverbs--"the dust bin of grammar" as some or t'other rightly said--are really of three quite distinct sorts: what we may call "ordinary adverbs", which modulate the sense of a verb; what I tend to call "adclausals" (more commonly if foolishly called "sentence adverbs"), which modulate the sense of an entire clause; and what, for lack of a better term, one might call "paramodifiers", which further modulate the force of some other modifier.
"Ordinary adverbs" (which can be identified by, if nothing else, their position right after--excepting any superposed paramodifiers--the verb they modulate), when used rightly, tell us something about the action or process described by the verb they are associated with; but the question often arises as to whether the quality being implied in the verb is not in reality better associated with the actor than the act.
To repeat an example, we can say, without in any technical sense committing an error, that "John sailed the boat single-handedly," and one finds just such forms all over the place[2]. But if we stop to ask ourselves with what the single-handedness (single-handed meaning "alone", "unaided") is most reasonably associated, John or his sailing, probably 97% of us will agree that the quality of single-handedness is more justly associated with John than with his sailing.
Now "single-handed" is an egregious case: it is hard, when we really consider, to think of any case in which the alone-ness of the actor is better assigned to the doing of the deed he or she performed unaided. Other ordinary adverbs are as definitely associated with the act as "single-handed" is with the actor: "He walked slowly down the gangplank." It is the many modifiers that could be taken in either sense--as stating an attribute of the actor or of the act--that require our careful attention; and the best advice is to assign the quality, wherever plausible, to the actor, by using an adjective, and that is the modern trend (that is, "plausible" takes in ever more territory by the year).
[1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, while I present you." -- "Epicoene: Or, The Silent Woman", 1609.
[2] "I saved SpongeBob single-handedly." "The man who almost single-handedly revived the handheld computer industry."
CDB - 09 Nov 2006 14:29 GMT [...]
> I had missed that, but I suppose the bare statement "I would not act > disrespectful" could be considered a copulative use of "act"; [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "look > superciliously while I present you" tolerable English?
> [1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, while I > present you." -- "Epicoene: Or, The Silent Woman", 1609. I must be missing something. Do you not read "look" there to mean "gaze" rather than "seem"? That would make the usage quite acceptable, IMO.
Eric Walker - 09 Nov 2006 22:35 GMT > [...] > > [1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, while I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "gaze" rather than "seem"? That would make the usage quite > acceptable, IMO. I think it clear that it means "seem", and so apparently do the various usage manuals that cite it. (It is particularly apposite in that Jonson was careful about his grammar, and even wrote a grammar manual.) The context is:
"Come, master doctor, and master parson, look to your parts now, and discharge them bravely: you are well set forth, perform it as well. If you chance to be out, do not confess it with standing still, or humming, or gaping one at another: but go on, and talk aloud and eagerly; use vehement action, and only remember your terms, and you are safe. Let the matter go where it will: you have many will do so. But at first be very solemn, and grave like your garments, though you loose your selves after, and skip out like a brace of jugglers on a table. Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, while I present you."
I daresay that "set your faces" combined with "be at first very solemn" makes it manifest that the doctor and parson are being instructed to put on a supercilious manner or seeming.
CDB - 10 Nov 2006 01:04 GMT >> [...] >>> [1] "Here he comes: set your faces, and look superciliously, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > in that Jonson was careful about his grammar, and even wrote a > grammar manual.) The context is:
> [text from Act V, Scene III, snipped for brevity] I haven't seen the usage manuals that you refer to; do they give reasons for their interpretation? Do they give other examples of the same usage from Jonson? It seems to me that a writer so careful should be given the benefit of the doubt.
> I daresay that "set your faces" combined with "be at first very > solemn" makes it manifest that the doctor and parson are being > instructed to put on a supercilious manner or seeming. As far as I can see, those instructions are compatible with either interpretation of "look", since to gaze superciliously ("to quiz", indeed, if the word had existed then) would help to produce such an appearance. It doesn't seem to me, absent the support I asked about above, that either reading can be considered conclusive. (I admit that I searched through the rest of the scene in vain for comments from Morose about the way in which the impostors were looking at him: a point in favour of your position.)
Eric Walker - 10 Nov 2006 02:11 GMT > I haven't seen the usage manuals that you refer to; do they give > reasons for their interpretation? Do they give other examples of the > same usage from Jonson? It seems to me that a writer so careful > should be given the benefit of the doubt. My unmentionable browser just ate a medium-long reply that I don't feel like re-typing in its entirety.
You can find a discussion citing that Jonson line in, at the least, Follett's _Modern American Usage_ at "Adverbs, Vexatious". The point of citing Jonson is not that he is in error, but the opposite: his use is an especially good demonstration of how syntax has evolved exactly because he was so careful that his grammar be correct by contemporary standards.
Also cited is a reviewer who referred to the book _And Quietly Flows the Don_ when the established English form of the title is _And Quiet Flows the Don_.
The bottom line is simply that it has been and is a long-running trend in English to consider ever more verb uses as copulative.
CDB - 10 Nov 2006 16:09 GMT >> I haven't seen the usage manuals that you refer to; do they give >> reasons for their interpretation? Do they give other examples of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My unmentionable browser just ate a medium-long reply that I don't > feel like re-typing in its entirety. Good name for a dog, though.
> You can find a discussion citing that Jonson line in, at the least, > Follett's _Modern American Usage_ at "Adverbs, Vexatious". The [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > The bottom line is simply that it has been and is a long-running > trend in English to consider ever more verb uses as copulative. Thank you for the reference. I will try to get hold of the work at the library. I have to say, though, that I'm not so much interested in the general modern usage, which is pretty clear (and on which I believe you're right), as in specific early examples
I don't have OED access, but my SOD gives "look grimly" from (unspecified) Shakespeare. I turned up two examples:
From _Anthony and Cleopatra_, "the augurers Say they know not, they cannot tell; look grimly, And dare not speak their knowledge";
and from _A Winter's Tale_, "We have landed in ill time: the skies look grimly And threaten present blusters."
The SOD also indicates that the use of the verb to mean "appear" started in the late 16th century. What strikes me about the three examples here is that they are all ambiguous. It doesn't take much stretching, even in the case of the skies, to interpret the word "look" as "gaze". What we are seeing may be the transition by reinterpretation, from a metaphorical use of the old meaning to a generally accepted new meaning,
The word is too common for googling, and none of the Shakespeare concordances I have tried knows what "*ly" means; so I'm stymied, for now, in the search for further examples. But it's an interesting idea and I'm going to try to stay alert for more.
I found a reference to an an article that may be relevant to the question:
Kristin Killie: On the use of current intuition as a bias in historical linguistics: The case of the LOOK+ -LY construction in English. In: Richardo Bermudez-Otero, et al. (eds.): Generative theory and corpus studies: A dialogue from 10. ICEHL, Topics in English linguistics. Berlin, New York: Mouton de Gruyter, 2000. 16p. ;
but I've got a hope of ever seeing it (although I could in fact care less).
Robert Bannister - 10 Nov 2006 00:07 GMT > As to "I still think that ignoring adverbs reduces the variety of > words, the diversity of English, like species extinction in the natural > world," I have to disagree. It is not a matter of "ignoring" adverbs, > it is a matter of using them to their right purpose. In German, there is no difference in form between adjectives and adverbs, and I presume this was the case in Old English too. So I suppose we can justifiably claim that -ly marker is really a modern invention.
We know that a small number of -ly adjectives (eg poorly) exist, and that the equivalent German ending -lich can appear equally happily on adjectives and adverbs. Still, we are talking about modern English, and I still feel mildly irritated at some of the newer uses.
 Signature Rob Bannister
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 22 Nov 2006 23:20 GMT What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than lower-case? I would interpret it to mean something conventionally thought to be good that may not be.
> > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > option--to associate the quality with the actor rather than the act, > which (also as noted) does tend toward more effective prose. Nick Atty - 23 Nov 2006 07:47 GMT >What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than >lower-case? I would interpret it to mean something conventionally >thought to be good that may not be. Roughly that. It comes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That although has spread widely.
Not putting your stuff at the top of the existing material, but below or interspersed as appropriate is a Good Thing, snipping unwanted material from the person or people you are quoting is another.
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Mark Brader - 23 Nov 2006 08:09 GMT > Roughly that. It comes from > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That ... Well, no, actually it comes from a book called 1066 and All That, not from a Wikipedia article about it.
See also the Jargon File.
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CDB - 23 Nov 2006 13:50 GMT >> What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than >> lower-case? I would interpret it to mean something conventionally [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1066_and_All_That although has spread > widely. I see your wiki and I raise you another one. Could be a Martha Stewart reference.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Thing
Wood Avens - 23 Nov 2006 14:45 GMT >>> What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than >>> lower-case? I would interpret it to mean something conventionally [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Thing Gosh. I imagined Martha Stewart to be old-ish, but I didn't realise she pre-dated Sellar and Yeatman.
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spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
CDB - 23 Nov 2006 16:26 GMT >>>> What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather >>>> than lower-case? I would interpret it to mean something [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Gosh. I imagined Martha Stewart to be old-ish, but I didn't realise > she pre-dated Sellar and Yeatman. I don't suppose she does; but the OP wanted the "significance" of the phrase, and it might well be that a contemporary user of Good Thing had her in mind rather than them, however much one might deplore the thought.
barkerplace@hotmail.com - 24 Nov 2006 16:52 GMT "The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to express our thoughts with precision and elegance."
So how does your definition apply to the usage above?
> >What is the significance of "a Good Thing" in capitals rather than > >lower-case? I would interpret it to mean something conventionally [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) > My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon Nick Atty - 24 Nov 2006 20:17 GMT >"The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is >thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to >express our thoughts with precision and elegance." > >So how does your definition apply to the usage above? Putting it above
>> Not putting your stuff at the top of the existing material, but below or >> interspersed as appropriate is a Good Thing, snipping unwanted material >> from the person or people you are quoting is another. along with a lot that he left unsnipped.
When you show that you can understand my postings, I might take the trouble to reply to you. But on the current evidence, I'd be wasting both our times.
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Peter Moylan - 26 Nov 2006 12:24 GMT > "The modern tendency to construe more and more verbs as copulative is > thus, by and large, A Good Thing, in that it expands our ability to > express our thoughts with precision and elegance." > > So how does your definition apply to the usage above?
>> Not putting your stuff at the top of the existing material, but below or >> interspersed as appropriate is a Good Thing, snipping unwanted material >> from the person or people you are quoting is another. Above what? Are you sure you didn't mean "below"?
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vorotyntsev@yahoo.com - 08 Nov 2006 01:11 GMT > Faith Hill, the country music star, is quoted as saying "the idea that > I would act disrespectful towards a fellow musician is unimaginable to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Athletes say they ran "quick" instead of "quickly". Is there a term > for this change? It's a red-neckism.
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