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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Old-fashioned look
What is and old-fashioned look? "What was once called an old-fashioned look". I've done some googling, and it appears to be a disapproving look, but that's all I know. Not a clue why it should have been "old-fashioned", for one thing, or whether "disapproving look" is an apt definition. B. > What is and old-fashioned look? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that's all I know. Not a clue why it should have been "old-fashioned", > for one thing, or whether "disapproving look" is an apt definition. Was it a look that someone gave to someone else (a glance, a stare...) or was it an appearance (it had a fresh look, a new look)?  SignatureBest - Donna Richoux > > What is and old-fashioned look? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > for one thing, or whether "disapproving look" is an apt definition.Was it a look that someone gave to someone else (a glance, a stare...) > or was it an appearance (it had a fresh look, a new look)? Since OP mentioned "disapproving look" in the same vein, I don't see how disaproval can be expressed sartorial(ly?) > > > "What was once called an old-fashioned look". > > > > > I've done some googling, and it appears to be a disapproving look, but > > > that's all I know. Not a clue why it should have been "old-fashioned", > > > for one thing, or whether "disapproving look" is an apt definition. >>> Was >>> it a look that someone gave to someone else (a glance, a stare...) > >>> or was it an appearance (it had a fresh look, a new look)? As Rob and Pat have worked out, the disapproving look must be pondial. Giving people disapproving looks certainly exists in North America, and being old-fashioned, too, but not AFAIK a special label of "old-fashioned looks." > Since OP mentioned "disapproving look" in the same vein, I don't see > how disaproval can be expressed sartorial(ly?) True, but a person could have -- wear, exhibit -- old fashioned styles and have an old-fashioned look. You're asking me to explain why I asked for context? The original poster said was that s/he found it *could* be used to mean a disapproving look. Context would have shown me if that was appropriate. We often find, several posts down the road, that the shape of the hole that the questioner is trying to force a square peg into is round. As our Intro A Guidlines say: Please explain the context of the usage; that will allow people to give you a sensible answer. I could have just bided my time and awaited further developments, but I didn't mind asking a question. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > > > "What was once called an old-fashioned look". > > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > You're asking me to explain why I asked for context? No, I was just somehow surprised that you didn't understand what kind of look was the OT referring to. I thought it was obvious OT meant _glance_, not _appearance_. [snipped irrelevant part] > What is and old-fashioned look? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > B. Yes, I understand it to mean a kind of disapproving or reproachful expression, such as you'd adopt to show you weren't best pleased with someone. Why "old-fashioned" I have no idea. >>What is and old-fashioned look? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > expression, such as you'd adopt to show you weren't best pleased with > someone. Why "old-fashioned" I have no idea. I don't take it necessarily to mean disapproving. More a puzzled, surprised look: "Did you really mean that?". SignatureRob Bannister > >>What is and old-fashioned look? > >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I don't take it necessarily to mean disapproving. More a puzzled, > surprised look: "Did you really mean that?". Yes, from the dictionary definitions that have been unearthed it seems as if there are two shades of meaning: quizzical or disapproving - or maybe some combination of both. I admit that it's not an expression I've come across very often... >> What is and old-fashioned look? >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > expression, such as you'd adopt to show you weren't best pleased > with someone. Why "old-fashioned" I have no idea. The citations posted downthread by John Dean start in 1911. "Old-fashioned" at that time seems likely to mean Victorian, and therefore unamused. > What is and old-fashioned look? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that's all I know. Not a clue why it should have been "old-fashioned", > for one thing, or whether "disapproving look" is an apt definition. I think, as Donna is hinting, that the person may be dressed or coifed in the styles of yesteryear. We really need more context to be sure. I know of no facial expression that would indicate a style from the past. >>What is and old-fashioned look? >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > We really need more context to be sure. I know of no facial expression > that would indicate a style from the past. Both your comment and Donna's make me think this is pondial. You are quite on the wrong track, and it's not from the past: this phrase is still current. SignatureRob Bannister >>>What is and old-fashioned look? >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > quite on the wrong track, and it's not from the past: this phrase is > still current. I am wrong, for sure, and stand corrected. Donna, I think, was asking for clarification before answering. I am sure the usage is pondial. >What is and old-fashioned look? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >that's all I know. Not a clue why it should have been "old-fashioned", >for one thing, or whether "disapproving look" is an apt definition. From: http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=5 61505950 or http://tinyurl.com/y8j2a8 old-fash·ioned look (plural old-fash·ioned looks) noun Definition: U.K. quizzical or reproving look: a quizzical or reproving look directed at somebody who has done or said something amiss I can't discover the origin of the phrase. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >What is and old-fashioned look? > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > I can't discover the origin of the phrase. I've always assumed, without any evidence, that it implies that the looker is expressing an old-fashioned attitude in the sense of "People today! We didn't do/say that kind of thing when I was a gel". All Lombard Street to a China orange that it's a facial expression, not a style of dress: the latter is pretty well (though not completely) ruled out by "what was once called". We do sometimes see fashions come back, but it's not very likely; and the expression does, I think, qualify for "what was once called". SignatureMike. >>> What is and old-fashioned look? >>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > back, but it's not very likely; and the expression does, I think, > qualify for "what was once called". Uh huh. Nothing to do with what anyone is wearing. You could give an old fashioned look in a nudist colony. As it happens OED covers the ground quite thoroughly: 4. Disapproving, tart, reproachful: used spec. of facial expression. Also as adv., in a disapproving, reproachful or quizzical manner. Freq. in phr. to give (someone) an old-fashioned look, to look old-fashioned at (someone). Quot. 1911 may belong in sense 3. 1911 F. H. Burnett Secret Garden xvii. 181 She+examined them with a solemn savage little face. She looked so sour and old-fashioned that the nurse turned her head aside to hide the twitching of her mouth. a1922 T. S. Eliot Waste Land Drafts (1971) 13 No, ma'am, you needn't look old-fashioned at me. 1926 S. Jameson Three Kingdoms vi. 154 Laurence listened, said: 'Oh. Bring her up in two minutes,' and gave Macdougal what he mentally classified as an old-fashioned look. 1933 E. Williams Late Christopher Bean ii. 51, I was wrong thinking wrong things, and acting so old fashioned with you. 1935 Archit. Rev. LXXVII. 270/3 He straightened his back and gave me an old-fashioned look as who should say 'And I dare you to laugh at me in your damn superior way, blast you.' 1935 N. Marsh Enter Murderer vii. 83 'Don't you act old-fashioned at me,' snarled the man. 1943 P. Cheyney You can always Duck i. 15 She looks at me sorta old-fashioned. 1948 'N. Shute' No Highway vi. 149 They'll probably look a bit old-fashioned at me. 1951 M. Kennedy Lucy Carmichael vii. iv. 379 I've tried to tell her twice+and all I get is an old-fashioned look. 1959 'R. Simons' Houseboat Killings xiii. 133 The commissionaire gave them an old-fashioned look as they spun the revolving doors, but it was lost on Wace. 1974 Blackw. Mag. Sept. 197/2 Comrade Supervisor gave her an old-fashioned look and answered: 'Lidia died the moment she fell, the moment she touched the ground.' SignatureJohn Dean Oxford "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote : >>>> What is and old-fashioned look? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > old-fashioned look and answered: 'Lidia died the moment she fell, the > moment she touched the ground.' My own feeling that such a look is likely to be exaggerated or posed for effect, but I note there is no suggestion of this in the OED entry. Philip Eden > "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote : >>>>> What is and old-fashioned look? [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > for effect, but I note there is no suggestion of this in the OED > entry. That will certainly be true on occasions. But I have known times when I have been accused of giving such a look when I was simply being non-vocally quizzical. And I have seen the look delivered by those who would scorn exaggeration or posing. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >"John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote : >>>> >>>>> What is and old-fashioned look? <major snip> >My own feeling that such a look is likely to be exaggerated or posed for >effect, but I note there is no suggestion of this in the OED entry. A possible confusion is that an "old-fashioned look" involves two categories of meaning of the noun "look": 1. "looking at" the act of directing the eyes toward something and perceiving it visually (Example: "He went out to have a look") 2."appearance". the expression on a person's face (Example: "A look of triumph") physical appearance (Example: "I don't like the looks of this place") When A gives B an "old-fashioned look", A directs his eyes toward B. What makes the look "old-fashioned" is the expression on A's face. This can only be seen by B or someone else directing their eyes to A's face. So, A and B must look at one another for B to recognise A's facial expression as being an "old-fashioned look". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >> "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote : >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > So, A and B must look at one another for B to recognise A's facial > expression as being an "old-fashioned look". I see no reason why C should not observe A giving B an old fashioned look of which B is in blissful ignorance. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote : >>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >I see no reason why C should not observe A giving B an old fashioned look of >which B is in blissful ignorance. I included C, D, et al. in "This can only be seen by B or someone else directing their eyes to A's face". I failed to include "someone else" in my final sentence. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>> "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote : >>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > else directing their eyes to A's face". I failed to include "someone > else" in my final sentence. So where exactly does "someone else" fit in your final sentence? SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>>> "John Dean" <john-dean@fraglineone.net> wrote : >>>>>>>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >So where exactly does "someone else" fit in your final sentence? A fair question. I'll reword that as 'I failed to mention "someone else" in my final sentence'. However, the "final sentence" as written is complete from the points of view of A and B: So, A and B must look at one another for B to recognise A's facial expression as being an "old-fashioned look". We could add a second sentence such as: Of course, if neither B nor anyone else looks at A, then no one, except A, will know that A gave B an "old-fashioned look". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > We could add a second sentence such as: > > Of course, if neither B nor anyone else looks at A, then no one, > except A, will know that A gave B an "old-fashioned look". Except an omniscient narrator. And everyone who reads it. But really, isn't deciding that a particular look is an "old-fashioned look" something that the observer does, not the giver? It's not a phrase I use; would it more likely be "So I gave him an old-fashioned look" or "She gave me an old-fashioned look"? People in America are apt to say the Look. Capitalizing the L with emphasized tone. "She gave him the Look." Quelling. Miss Manners goes on at some length about the usefulness of silent family signals that mean "Stop that right now." Which reminds me of a signal we set up within my family. If we were out in public and one of us (often me) starting babbling too loudly about a subject that another of us found sensitive, then the signal was to mention Aunt Sophie (I think we used various names, but always aunts.) Like, "Yes, I think you should tell Aunt Sophie all about that next time you see her." We don't *have* any Aunt Sophie or hardly any aunts at all, so that would stop the speaker in her tracks. So it was a very innocuous way to say "Shut up." Feel free to adapt it for your own purposes. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >> We could add a second sentence such as: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >But really, isn't deciding that a particular look is an "old-fashioned >look" something that the observer does, not the giver? Um. Yes, no or maybe. Here we are discussing the making of a facial expression as a form of communication. In this context the person who makes the expression described as an "old-fashioned look" intends to convey some meaning. Assuming that the expression is observed by the intended recipient (or someone else) there is then the matter of whether the expression has been understood correctly. Facial expressions can be misunderstood. What an observer thinks is an "old-fashioned look" may not have been intended as such. Similarly someone may make a face which is intended to be an "old-fashioned look" but which is not interpreted as such by an observer. (Where there is more than one observer there may not be unanimity in the interpretation of any one facial expression.) There is nothing special about this -- it applies in all forms of communication: spoken, written and signed language, etc. >It's not a phrase >I use; I don't use the phrase either. I would classify it as old-fashioned. >would it more likely be "So I gave him an old-fashioned look" or >"She gave me an old-fashioned look"? Probably the latter and the third-party "She gave him an old-fashioned look". From the point of view of the giver of the look "So I gave him an old-fashioned look" is possible, but I think I'd expect something along the lines of "So I gave him a warning look" or "I looked at him in alarm" with the accompanying facial expression being implicit in the latter. (No doubt more apt adjectives can be found.) SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson ha scritto: > >What is and old-fashioned look? > > > >"What was once called an old-fashioned look". [...] > From: > http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=5 61505950 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I can't discover the origin of the phrase. Thanks. "Quizzical" is just fine. B. >>What is and old-fashioned look? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > U.K. quizzical or reproving look: a quizzical or reproving look > directed at somebody who has done or said something amiss My oh my oh my! Learn something new every other post. Thanks all. (...) > From: > http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/features/dictionary/DictionaryResults.aspx?refid=5 61505950 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I can't discover the origin of the phrase. SherLok Merfy flattened his eyebrows for the author and told him to say what he means, rather than write some phrase that's a none too polite reminder of the fact that most of our reproof comes from our elders. I'm not surprised that the orijin of the phrase is scarcely known, because it's sloppy. _______ <a href="http://www.mynumo.com/SherLok">BrewJay's Babble Bin, lite.</a> >(...) >> From: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >fact that most of our reproof comes from our elders. I'm not surprised >that the orijin of the phrase is scarcely known, because it's sloppy. The what of the phrase? SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>(...) >>> From: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >The what of the phrase? Perhaps SherLok Merfy is teetotal and abhors the three letter sequence g i n. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) |
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