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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Use of 'the' with 'size' vs. 'control'
"The" can be used with an object or attribute implied by an already mentioned object, e.g. "the size of this box". But why don't I see 'the' used with 'control' as in "Democrats won control of the House of Representatives"? Note that some idiomatic phrases such as "gain control", "lose control", "take control" are not under my concern because they are themselves idioms. One possible reason is "control" isn't an attribute. It's more of an action, a verb-derived noun. Regards, Yao Ziyuan > "The" can be used with an object or attribute implied by an > already mentioned object, e.g. "the size of this box". [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > One possible reason is "control" isn't an attribute. It's more > of an action, a verb-derived noun. Seems to me that this is also an idiomatic structure and that this is the way "control" works in English. No one says *"I want the control (of)"; they always say "I want control (of)". Size is an attribute of the box, but control is certainly not an attribute of the House; it's a separate entity.  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." > > "The" can be used with an object or attribute implied by an > > already mentioned object, e.g. "the size of this box". [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Size is an attribute of the box, but control is certainly not an > attribute of the House; it's a separate entity. You mean "box" is an attribute to "size". "Size" is the core of the noun phrase "the size of the box". > > > "The" can be used with an object or attribute implied by an > > > already mentioned object, e.g. "the size of this box". [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > You mean "box" is an attribute to "size". "Size" is the core of the > noun phrase "the size of the box". It just hit me that this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. The topic is the use of "the". English has a lot of these idioms: "I love life", "I fear death".. In Norwegian we use the definite forms of these words in this context. The indefinite forms occur in some other contexts.. J-E. > Jan-Erik wrote: >> > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > thread. The topic is the use of "the". English has a lot of > these idioms: "I love life", There is also "I love the life", which means something quite different. > "I fear death".. In Norwegian we > use the definite forms of these words in this context. The > indefinite forms occur in some other contexts.. J-E. In an English-usage group, anything said in any post is potentially on-topic, especially the usage of words incorrectly used. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." > dontbother wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> Size is an attribute of the box, but control is certainly not >> an attribute of the House; it's a separate entity. > You mean "box" is an attribute to "size". "Size" is the core of > the noun phrase "the size of the box". No, I don't mean that at all. Attributes are traits. All boxes have the attribute size, but not all "sizes" have the "attribute" "box", looking at things logically instead of grammatically. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." > > dontbother wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > the attribute size, but not all "sizes" have the "attribute" "box", > looking at things logically instead of grammatically. I meant grammatically, of course.. I think the word "of" confused a little here. "of" is used in possessive relations, like "the size of the box" (speaking grammatically, of course), "the top of the mountain", "the brink of war".. Then these "of"-phrases would be attributes in a grammatical sense.. "of" as in "control of" has a completely different role, it's much closer tied to the noun directly. "control of the country" doesn't mean the control that the country possesses, but the control someone has 'over' the country. > > > dontbother wrote: > > >> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > "control of the country" doesn't mean the control that the country > possesses, but the control someone has 'over' the country. That 'brink' example wasn't too good, I think, because it's very closely tied to what comes after brink. This is just another example that in many cases, it's very hard to draw lines and discern what belongs in one category and what belongs in another. But I still think this is irrelevant to what was first posted, regarding use of "the". >> > > dontbother wrote: >> > >> [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > another. But I still think this is irrelevant to what was first > posted, regarding use of "the". Yes, it's irrelevant to the use of "the", but I pointed out that constructions using "control" are usually idiomatic and don't take "the" -- if not in that post, then in another in this thread. No usage question is irrelevant here. And we already have more than our share of control freaks in this NG, so it would be best to avoid becoming a member of that club. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." (...) > But why don't I see 'the' used with 'control' as in "Democrats won > control of the House of Representatives"? (...) More than one control is on the House of Representatives, and they aren't necessarily united, so "The control of The House of Representatives" doesn't really exist. In another context, if you lose "control of the car", that could be because you suddenly floored the gas pedal and put the transmission in park while doing the speed limit on the freeway, just ahead of an eighteen wheeler. So, no single control is for the car, either. _______ <a href="http://www.mynumo.com/SherLok">BrewJay's Babble Bin, lite.</a> > "The" can be used with an object or attribute implied by an already > mentioned object, e.g. "the size of this box". [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > One possible reason is "control" isn't an attribute. It's more of an > action, a verb-derived noun. If it was "the control", it would sound to me almost like you were talking about a physical object -- a lever or steering wheel or remote control, perhaps. (Many people might wish that there were such things for politicians.) There is no rule that I know of against using "the" with abstract nouns, but there are many constructions in English like "I wish you happiness" etc. in which the definite article is not used. -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au |
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