"If I were you", why use a plural verb & past tense ?
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TE Chea - 10 Nov 2006 15:22 GMT "If" already indicates an assumption, so using a plural verb & past tense just to indicate an assumption ( in present tense ) must be [i] unnecessary duplication done twice [ii] causing confusion with past tense. If I want to indicate present tense, I'll say "If I am you" instead. Likewise, I'll say "If you are me". If I want to indicate past tense, I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe any1 will misunderstand me. Does any1 here agree ?
dontbother - 11 Nov 2006 07:10 GMT > "If" already indicates an assumption, so using a plural verb & > past tense just to indicate an assumption ( in present tense ) [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > indicate past tense, I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe > any1 will misunderstand me. Does any1 here agree ? Look up the word "subjunctive". Read the explanation of the term. If you still have questions, come back and ask them.
If you want as many answers as possible, please refrain from using obscene language in this NG. I won't be answering any more of your questions if you use texting language (i.e., obscenities like "any1").
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
Eric Walker - 11 Nov 2006 07:39 GMT [...]
> If you want as many answers as possible, please refrain from using > obscene language in this NG. I won't be answering any more of your > questions if you use texting language (i.e., obscenities like > "any1"). Profane, yes. Obscene? (Thumbs desk dictionary.) Yep, guess that, too.
Jonathan Morton - 11 Nov 2006 09:10 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Profane, yes. Obscene? (Thumbs desk dictionary.) Yep, guess that, too. I was going to say "don't feed the trolls". But, just in case the OP wants a serious answer, "were" is neither plural nor past in the use quoted by him.
I nominate "If I am you..." as the least useful part of a sentence seen for many years.
Regards
Jonathan
Bob Cunningham - 11 Nov 2006 11:52 GMT [...]
> I nominate "If I am you..." as the least useful part > of a sentence seen for many years. That was in response to an original poster who said
If I want to indicate present tense, I'll say "If I am you" instead. Likewise, I'll say "If you are me".
"Least" being superlative rules out all other possible candidates in recent experience. How is "If I am you" less useful than "If you are me"?
Bob Cunningham - 11 Nov 2006 11:58 GMT On Sat, 11 Nov 2006 11:52:02 GMT, I used the subject line "'Leas useful'?". Should have been "'Least useful'?"
Jonathan Morton - 11 Nov 2006 12:51 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > candidates in recent experience. How is "If I am you" less > useful than "If you are me"? A fair point. I should have said "amongst...".
Anyway, it should be "if you are I" and I shall bear this in mind for the next time I have cause to use it.
Regards
Jonathan
Bob Cunningham - 11 Nov 2006 18:05 GMT > > [...]
> >> I nominate "If I am you..." as the least useful part > >> of a sentence seen for many years.
> > That was in response to an original poster who said
> > If I want to indicate present tense, I'll say "If > > I am you" instead. Likewise, I'll say "If you > > are me".
> > "Least" being superlative rules out all other possible > > candidates in recent experience. How is "If I am you" less > > useful than "If you are me"?
> A fair point. I should have said "amongst...".
> Anyway, it should be "if you are I" and I shall bear this in > mind for the next time I have cause to use it. That should please Miss Thistlebottom and her fellow travelers, but most ordinary English users may wonder why you didn't say "If you are me".
Let me recite once more the following anapestic stanza that appears somewhere in the _Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage_:
If you hear someone cry, "It is I! It is I!", Look around and you'll see It's not me! It's not me!
Eric Walker - 12 Nov 2006 01:43 GMT [...]
> That should please Miss Thistlebottom and her fellow > travelers, but most ordinary English users may wonder why > you didn't say "If you are me". You know, from a fair experience of "ordinary English speakers", I much doubt that. There is a world of difference between not normally using a form oneself and readily recognizing and comprehending it when someone else uses it. That fact is important, arguably crucial, in grammar and usage discussions, yet is almost invariably ignored in such discussions here.
To take the very most egregious case available, "it is I", one can grant that a substantial fraction of native speakers do not use the form, and indeed many *will* not, and that when those who do not hear another use it they may well find it grating. But I daresay that not a one will misunderstand, or suppose it in error, or wonder why it was used.
So long as a form well established as sound use remains clearly comprehensible to the great majority of users of the tongue, there are no grounds for discarding it.
And, as I perpetually point out, Henry James (I think it was) said that there is nothing in this world that anyone is obliged to like. One can be punctiliously correct by the established standards without either resort to "it is I" or clumsiness; in a deal of cases, a simple "I am" will do, and for the others there will invariably be some equally compact alternative.
The modern distaste for "It is I" is bathwater; the baby is agreement in case between subject and predicate after a copulative verb. Fill in the proverb for yourself.
Jonathan Morton - 12 Nov 2006 11:19 GMT > [...] > >> That should please Miss Thistlebottom and her fellow >> travelers, but most ordinary English users may wonder why >> you didn't say "If you are me".
> The modern distaste for "It is I" is bathwater; the baby is agreement > in case between subject and predicate after a copulative verb. Fill in > the proverb for yourself. I suspect Bob knows I was pulling his and other people's legs. All the same, I agree with Eric - I would rarely use "it is I" in speech, but I would in writing, on the rare occasions when it was called for.
Regards
Jonathan
Aaron J. Dinkin - 15 Nov 2006 04:03 GMT > The modern distaste for "It is I" is bathwater; the baby is agreement > in case between subject and predicate after a copulative verb. Alternatively, one might say that the traditional distaste for "It is me" is bathwater; the baby is the principle that the complement of a verb should be in the objective case.
-Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom
dontbother - 15 Nov 2006 04:17 GMT > Eric Walker <email@owlcroft.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > "It is me" is bathwater; the baby is the principle that the > complement of a verb should be in the objective case. We could change to French ("C'est moi" = "It's me") or Chinese ("Wo shi" = "I am" = "It is I") and end the debate.
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
Gene Wirchenko - 16 Nov 2006 01:38 GMT >> Eric Walker <email@owlcroft.com> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >We could change to French ("C'est moi" = "It's me") or Chinese ("Wo >shi" = "I am" = "It is I") and end the debate. You are cheating with Chinese since it does not have object pronouns.
Sincerely,
Gene Wirchenko
Computerese Irregular Verb Conjugation: I have preferences. You have biases. He/She has prejudices.
dontbother - 16 Nov 2006 05:52 GMT > dontbother <dontbother@mushmail.mom> wrote: >>> Eric Walker <email@owlcroft.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You are cheating with Chinese since it does not have object > pronouns. The literal Chinese is "I am", and the "I" is the subject pronoun. But all pronouns serve as both objects and subjects. The only difference here is that they aren't inflected for case. In "Wo ai ni" ("I love you"), "ni" ("you") is clearly the direct object; therefore, it is an object pronoun. In "Wo gei ni" ("I give [this/it] (to) you"), "ni is clearly the indirect object and, therefore, an object pronoun.
"You" in English is both a subject and object (DO & IO) pronoun. Despite the lack of morphology, the grammatical functions of these pronouns are clear. Unless, of course, one denys the existence of case without case morphology. But that would be folly, I think.
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
Eric Walker - 16 Nov 2006 10:16 GMT > . . . Unless, of course, one denys the existence of > case without case morphology. But that would be folly, I think. Ooh, dey's gonna be blood a-flowin' now!
dontbother - 16 Nov 2006 11:00 GMT > dontbother wrote: > >> . . . Unless, of course, one denys the existence of >> case without case morphology. But that would be folly, I think. > > Ooh, dey's gonna be blood a-flowin' now! Nah. Nobody wants to fight with me anymore.
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
Eric Walker - 15 Nov 2006 05:41 GMT > > The modern distaste for "It is I" is bathwater; the baby is agreement > > in case between subject and predicate after a copulative verb. > > Alternatively, one might say that the traditional distaste for "It is me" > is bathwater; the baby is the principle that the complement of a verb > should be in the objective case. ". . . the complement of a verb should be in the objective case." Wanna run that one by again for me, slowly? Are you arguing that "be" is ever non-copulative?
Peter Moylan - 12 Nov 2006 13:24 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > candidates in recent experience. How is "If I am you" less > useful than "If you are me"? If I were John and John were me Then he'd be six and I'd be three. If John were me and I were John I shouldn't have these trousers on.
(Shamelessly stolen from A.A. Milne.)
 Signature Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time.
Peacenik - 11 Nov 2006 12:39 GMT ?
> If you want as many answers as possible, please refrain from using > obscene language in this NG. I won't be answering any more of your > questions if you use texting language (i.e., obscenities like > "any1"). At least he didn't say "ne1".
dontbother - 11 Nov 2006 12:49 GMT > "dontbother" <dontbother@mushmail.mom> wrote
>> If you want as many answers as possible, please refrain from using >> obscene language in this NG. I won't be answering any more of your >> questions if you use texting language (i.e., obscenities like >> "any1"). > > At least he didn't say "ne1". Yes, and I suppose we can thank Ged for that.
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
Peter Moylan - 12 Nov 2006 13:23 GMT > If you want as many answers as possible, please refrain from using > obscene language in this NG. I won't be answering any more of your > questions if you use texting language (i.e., obscenities like > "any1"). Isn't that one of the common ways of indicating tones? I didn't immediately realise that he was using encryption; I thought that "any1" was a romanisation of somebody's name.
 Signature Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time.
dontbother - 12 Nov 2006 14:38 GMT > dontbother wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > immediately realise that he was using encryption; I thought that > "any1" was a romanisation of somebody's name. Yes, it is a way to indicate tones on the Net, but "any" is not a possible romanization of a Chinese name; it would have to be something like "anyi" or "an-yi" or "an-i".
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
the Omrud - 11 Nov 2006 10:01 GMT TE Chea <4ws@gmail.com> had it:
> "If" already indicates an assumption, so using a plural verb & past > tense just to indicate an assumption ( in present tense ) must be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe any1 will misunderstand me. > Does any1 here agree ? Native speakers of English are always grateful to receive thoughtful correction in this way. It's interesting to note that these helpful rectifications to our bizarre and inconsistent language seem to more often arrive from the East.
I don't know who any1 might be, but I think he will misunderstand you. "If I am you" sounds more like a question in an Oxford entrance exam than any part of normal speech.
 Signature David =====
Millicent Tendency - 11 Nov 2006 10:03 GMT >TE Chea <4ws@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >rectifications to our bizarre and inconsistent language seem to more >often arrive from the East. I once called them SGMTs ("Sino-GMail types") and -- as was only to be expected -- got roundly battered for it.
 Signature Millicent Tendency (TEFKATHE)
Lars Eighner - 11 Nov 2006 10:08 GMT In our last episode, <MPG.1fbfaf965de7bf2598b19d@news.ntlworld.com>, the lovely and talented the Omrud broadcast on alt.usage.english:
> TE Chea <4ws@gmail.com> had it:
>> "If" already indicates an assumption, so using a plural verb & past >> tense just to indicate an assumption ( in present tense ) must be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe any1 will misunderstand me. >> Does any1 here agree ?
> Native speakers of English are always grateful to receive thoughtful > correction in this way. It's interesting to note that these helpful > rectifications to our bizarre and inconsistent language seem to more > often arrive from the East.
> I don't know who any1 might be, but I think he will misunderstand > you. "If I am you" sounds more like a question in an Oxford entrance > exam than any part of normal speech. Word.
 Signature Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> If it wasn't for muscle spasms, I wouldn't get any exercise at all.
Donna Richoux - 11 Nov 2006 11:50 GMT > TE Chea <4ws@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe any1 will misunderstand me. > > Does any1 here agree ? [snip]
> I don't know who any1 might be, but I think he will misunderstand > you. It's supposed to be "anal".
No, no, here's a straight answer, TE Chea. "If I were you" does convey an extra message -- the idea of contrary to fact. "If I were you, which I'm not, because it is impossible, but just suppose for the moment that could be true -- then..." All of that is packed into the word "were".
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
TE Chea - 11 Nov 2006 19:21 GMT | "If I were you, which | I'm not, because it is impossible, but just suppose for the moment that | could be true -- then..." Doesn't all this = indicating an assumption, which "If" already does ?
Jonathan Morton - 12 Nov 2006 11:16 GMT > | "If I were you, which > | I'm not, because it is impossible, but just suppose for the moment that > | could be true -- then..." > > Doesn't all this = indicating an assumption, which "If" already > does ? "If" indicates the assumption. But the "were" makes it clear that the assumption is an impossible one.
Regards
Jonathan
TE Chea - 12 Nov 2006 12:47 GMT | "If" indicates the assumption. But the "were" makes it clear that the | assumption is an impossible one. But "were" cannot similarly indicate impossibility in "If you were me" ; listener(s) will think the speaker just mean "If you had been me". I think a unique verb is needed to indicate impossibility.
Robert Lieblich - 12 Nov 2006 17:04 GMT > | "If" indicates the assumption. But the "were" makes it clear that the > | assumption is an impossible one. > > But "were" cannot similarly indicate impossibility in "If you were > me" ; listener(s) will think the speaker just mean "If you had been > me". I'm only a poor humble native speaker of American English, but I would indeed interpret "were" in "if you were me" as indicating impossibility. You apparently think that the "were" subjunctive indicates present impossibility only when context does not otherwise do so, and of course everyone knows that you aren't me, so "were" is redundant. But that is far too restrictive a view of how English works (indeed, of how language in general works) and "were" is in fact the form to indicate impossibility whenever impossibility exists. "If I were you" is Standard American English. I think it's also standard in UK English but will not argue with UK English speakers if they say otherwise.
> I think a unique verb is needed to indicate impossibility. Then you'll have to coin one. All we have in contemporary English is "were."
By the way, I think strict traditional English grammar requires "If you were I."
 Signature Bob Lieblich If I were you, I'd concede the point
Eric Walker - 13 Nov 2006 00:58 GMT [...]
> I'm only a poor humble native speaker of American English, but I would > indeed interpret "were" in "if you were me" as indicating [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > also standard in UK English but will not argue with UK English > speakers if they say otherwise. A very modest nit: I don't think it indicates impossibility, only that the case is not actually so.
It might be helpful to TE Chea to see what one eminent grammarian says about the subjunctive mood:
"This form represents something as not actually belonging to the domain of fact or reality, but as merely existent in the mind of the speaker as a desire, wish, volition, plan, conception, thought; sometimes with more or less hope of realization, or, in the case of a statement, with more or less belief . . . .
"The uses of the subjunctive naturally fall into two classes: (1) the optative subjunctive, which represents the utterance as something desired or planned; and (2) the potential subjunctive, which represents the statement, not as actual fact, but only as a conception of the mind."
The subjunctive is simply how English-speaking people convey those things.
The subjunctive can--like many things in English--be expressed in either of two ways: the older inflectional way, in which the word form conveys the mood ("if I were king"); or the modern way, which relies on verbal auxiliaries ("He might visit us tonight").
The subject-line question is simply answered: the mechanical means of showing that the verb of a statement is to be taken as being in the subjunctive mood--which conveys the freight described above--takes that form. The "were" is *not* plural: it is the past tense of "be" in the subjunctive mood, in _all_ persons. The verb "be" is the only one in the language with a past subjunctive form that differs from the ordinary indicative form; all other verbs manifest the past subjunctive in all persons with the bare infinitive form (for example, "jump", as in "Did he jump, he might fall").
The reason the past tense is used is more complicated, because the use of tenses in the subjunctive mood does not correspond with their common-sensical use in the ordinary indicative mood. In particular, the past tense in the subjunctive typically points to the present or even the future. That's just the way it works. If you have complaints, it is now too late to deliver them, as these forms are the result of many centuries of evolution in the tongue.
CDB - 13 Nov 2006 01:50 GMT > [...] [good explanations of the subjunctive for NESs]
If TE is still having trouble after these more than adequate expositions, he may want to look at the Wikipedia article on the subjunctive (English-language section, of course), which describes the same paterns in somewhat different words. Slowly, with repetition and practice, an intuitive grasp of the subjunctive *feeling* may begin to creep over him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subjunctive
Peter Duncanson - 13 Nov 2006 11:56 GMT >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >A very modest nit: I don't think it indicates impossibility, only that >the case is not actually so. Agreed.
The AUE FAQ excerpt on the subjunctive uses "counterfactual" rather than "impossible". http://alt-usage-english.org/excerpts/fxsubjun.html
... The past subjunctive is used: (1) for counterfactual conditionals: "If I were..." or (literary) "Were I...". In informal English, substitution of the past indicative form ("If I was...") is common. But note that speakers who make this substitution are *still* distinguishing possible conditions from counterfactual ones, by a change of tense: Present Past Possible condition: "If I am" "If I was" Counterfactual condition: "If I were/was" "If I had been" ...
Personal Peeve: I don't like the label "past subjunctive" because, as illustrated above, it can be used of a clause referring to a present situation as well as to one in the past.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Eric Walker - 13 Nov 2006 22:59 GMT > Personal Peeve: I don't like the label "past subjunctive" because, > as illustrated above, it can be used of a clause referring to a > present situation as well as to one in the past. The point is well taken, in that the "past subjunctive" typically points to the temporal present or future. On the other hand, though, the formal structure of it is that of a past tense, as exhibited in the auxiliaries. In any event, I guess we're stuck with the terminology, confusing as it can be.
TE Chea - 14 Nov 2006 05:50 GMT | If you have complaints, it is now too late to deliver them I'll use "am" / "was", in place of "were" ; how impossible an assumption is needs not be indicated by a speaker, listeners can themselves assess assumptions, speakers only need tell listeners whether a fact / assumption is said. Indication of impossibility etc. is verbose, a common style of arts students ( all love to play with words ) incapable of learning science.
Eric Walker - 14 Nov 2006 07:36 GMT > | If you have complaints, it is now too late to deliver them > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > impossibility etc. is verbose, a common style of arts students > ( all love to play with words ) incapable of learning science. You are, of course, free to invent whatever language you like. Just do not be under the misimpression that it is English, or that anyone else will take it for English.
Good night, and good luck.
Aaron J. Dinkin - 15 Nov 2006 04:08 GMT > The verb "be" is the only one in the language with a past subjunctive > form that differs from the ordinary indicative form; all other verbs > manifest the past subjunctive in all persons with the bare infinitive > form (for example, "jump", as in "Did he jump, he might fall"). In this (nigh-bizarrely archaic) example, it is "did", not "jump", that is past-subjunctive. All verbs other than "be" manifest the past-subjunctive with the ordinary past tense form, as in "If he jumped, he might fall."
I take no position in this post as to whether or not it's meaningful to describe the past-subjunctive as a subjunctive in the context of English grammar. It's pretty clearly authentically past tense, though.
-Aaron J. Dinkin Dr. Whom
dontbother - 12 Nov 2006 17:07 GMT >| "If" indicates the assumption. But the "were" makes it clear >| that the assumption is an impossible one. > > But "were" cannot similarly indicate impossibility in "If you > were me" ; listener(s) will think the speaker just mean "If you > had been me". It's true that some of us think that English has been dumbed down considerably recently because of the lack of language education provided to native English speakers these days, but, really, the vast majority of us aren't that stupid.
You're tilting at windmills here. Don't argue with idiom. Native speakers of every language understand their own idiom.
> I think a unique verb is needed to indicate > impossibility. Yeah, you may, but we don't. That should end the discussion.
 Signature Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery."
Donna Richoux - 12 Nov 2006 13:19 GMT > | "If I were you, which > | I'm not, because it is impossible, but just suppose for the moment that > | could be true -- then..." > > Doesn't all this = indicating an assumption, which "If" already > does ? Some assumptions are almost certainly true; others are quite likely true, or fifty-fifty, or long shots, or completely out of the ballpark. The word "if" alone doesn't tell you the likelihood that the assumption will (or did) happen. The "were" does.
If she was at that party, I don't remember it now. Maybe she was.
If she were at that party, I would have spoken to her then, but she wasn't there.
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Peacenik - 11 Nov 2006 12:38 GMT > "If" already indicates an assumption, so using a plural verb & past > tense just to indicate an assumption ( in present tense ) must be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe any1 will misunderstand me. > Does any1 here agree ? "If I were you" is in the subjunctive mood, not the indicative mood.
Django Cat - 11 Nov 2006 15:42 GMT > "If" already indicates an assumption, so using a plural verb & past > tense just to indicate an assumption ( in present tense ) must be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Likewise, I'll say "If you are me". If I want to indicate past tense, > I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe any1 will misunderstand me. You go right ahead.
I'm sitting here marking IELTS papers.
DC
Steve Hayes - 11 Nov 2006 16:39 GMT >"If" already indicates an assumption, so using a plural verb & past >tense just to indicate an assumption ( in present tense ) must be >[i] unnecessary duplication done twice [ii] causing confusion with >past tense. >If I want to indicate present tense, I'll say "If I am you" instead. But in this case, it is the present subnjunctive, which is "If I were you"
>Likewise, I'll say "If you are me". But the present subjunctive is "If you were me"
> If I want to indicate past tense, >I'll say "If I was you". I don't believe any1 will misunderstand me. And I would say "If I had been you"
>Does any1 here agree ? Not I, for one.
 Signature Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
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