spring-blind
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Marius Hancu - 11 Nov 2006 14:55 GMT Hello:
I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" for windows, one which rolls up while being pulled up by a spring?
----- All was so solid and spruce, that the past flew up out of sight like a spring-blind, leaving only the last five minutes unrolled.
Howards End - E. M. Forster, p. 284 http://forster.thefreelibrary.com/Howards-End/29-1 -----
Thanks. Marius Hancu
Jonathan Morton - 11 Nov 2006 15:13 GMT > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Howards End - E. M. Forster, p. 284 > http://forster.thefreelibrary.com/Howards-End/29-1 I'm sure that is exactly what is meant.
In my experience getting the right adjustment on the spring is nearly impossible.
Regards
Jonathan
Marius Hancu - 11 Nov 2006 15:24 GMT > > I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" for > > windows, one which rolls up while being pulled up by a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > All was so solid and spruce, that the past flew up out of sight like a > > spring-blind, leaving only the last five minutes unrolled.
> I'm sure that is exactly what is meant. Thanks.
I was surprised to find "spring-blind," a composite noun using the dash connector, in this text, now 100 years old. I'd've thought such noun construction is of more recent date, but it seems I was wrong.
Marius Hancu
Jonathan Morton - 11 Nov 2006 15:42 GMT >>> I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" for >>> windows, one which rolls up while being pulled up by a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > dash connector, in this text, now 100 years old. I'd've thought such > noun construction is of more recent date, but it seems I was wrong. Is Forster really 100 years old? I agree it's a bit surprising, though.
I was also surprised that such blinds were in existence at the time he wrote the novel.
Regards
Jonathan
Marius Hancu - 11 Nov 2006 16:01 GMT > Is Forster really 100 years old? Howard's End was published in 1910. Time is flying:-[
Marius Hancu
home.home1@virgin.net - 12 Nov 2006 05:08 GMT > >>> I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" for > >>> windows, one which rolls up while being pulled up by a [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Jonathan Regards Jonathan
You keep on writing about Jonathan but you never finish So regarding this Jonathan?
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Tony Cooper - 11 Nov 2006 15:55 GMT >> > I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" for >> > windows, one which rolls up while being pulled up by a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >dash connector, in this text, now 100 years old. I'd've thought such >noun construction is of more recent date, but it seems I was wrong. I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years ago, let alone the composite noun construction.
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Peter Duncanson - 11 Nov 2006 18:30 GMT >>> > I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" for >>> > windows, one which rolls up while being pulled up by a [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years >ago, let alone the composite noun construction. Yes, I too find it surprising. My doubts would be over the availablity of suitable spring steel.
What I would guess at would be a blind with a hidden weight to roll it up. The weight arrangement would be similar to that of a sash window, except that a sash window has counterweights whereas the roller blind would need a weight heavy than the blind.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Wood Avens - 11 Nov 2006 18:44 GMT >>I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years >>ago, let alone the composite noun construction. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >window, except that a sash window has counterweights whereas the >roller blind would need a weight heavy than the blind. Googling for "spring blind", I found the following:
Upton, Alfred Adolphus T Born in St Marylebone 1827. Christened February 11 1827 in Westminster. Md Louisa Nugent (b Stepney 1827) February 10 1850 in St Pancras. STUDIO: 59 Paddington Street, St Marylebone 1893 - 1894. Succeeded by Upton & Connolly. 1881: spring blind manufacturer living at 55 High Street, St Marylebone Date of death unknown.
So something called a spring-blind was around in Forster's day: he didn't just make up the term. Further rootling may turn up details of exactly what it was.
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Wood Avens - 11 Nov 2006 18:49 GMT >So something called a spring-blind was around in Forster's day: he >didn't just make up the term. Further rootling may turn up details of >exactly what it was. Not precisely further details, but this, from the article "Fifty Years of Psychical Research" by Harry Price (1939, Longmans, Green & Co.):
"A large window at one end of the room could be screened by an opaque, black rubberized spring blind, the edges of which were masked by a felt-lined 'box' which entirely surrounded the window. These spring roller-blinds are used extensively for X-ray work in large hospitals."
1939, true, but I felt it might provide a clue.
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John Dean - 11 Nov 2006 19:16 GMT >>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years >>> ago, let alone the composite noun construction. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > didn't just make up the term. Further rootling may turn up details of > exactly what it was. Those assiduous peeps at the OED have saved us some work:
" 1858 Simmonds Dict. Trade, *Spring-blind maker, a maker of window blinds working on springs."
All together now ...
A capital ship for an ocean trip Was the "Walloping Window Blind" No gale that blew dismayed her crew Or troubled the captain's mind
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Wood Avens - 11 Nov 2006 19:48 GMT >Those assiduous peeps at the OED have saved us some work: > >" 1858 Simmonds Dict. Trade, *Spring-blind maker, a maker of window blinds >working on springs." And if anyone was still in any doubt, www.tidmarsh.co.uk, blindmakers, say
"The original spring roller blind was patented by Tidmarsh in the 1880's and whilst it has been widely imitated it has never been equalled."
They have "A History of Blinds" on their website. No real technical details, but this, at least:
"The arrival of the 19th Century and the start of the industrial revolution saw the development of many different types and styles of blinds. The well established roller and Venetian blinds were enhanced by the addition of mass produced mechanisms such as springs, stop actions and cord locks. There was a great improvement in the choice of fabrics available for blinds."
("Toasted pigs and pickles and figs" still tonguetwists me.)
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John Dean - 11 Nov 2006 23:59 GMT >> Those assiduous peeps at the OED have saved us some work: >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > actions and cord locks. There was a great improvement in the choice of > fabrics available for blinds." So, how do you make a Venetian Blind? A Maltese Cross? What's a Greek Urn?
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J. J. Lodder - 12 Nov 2006 07:54 GMT > >> Those assiduous peeps at the OED have saved us some work: > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > So, how do you make a Venetian Blind? Take away his glasses.
> A Maltese Cross? Show him a lioness in heat.
> What's a Greek Urn? Sorry, too hard.
Jan
Peter Moylan - 14 Nov 2006 11:53 GMT >> What's a Greek Urn? > > Sorry, too hard. It was something like 15 drachmas a day when I first heard that one. No doubt inflation has gone and changed the answer.
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Nick Spalding - 14 Nov 2006 14:15 GMT Peter Moylan wrote, in <4559ae42$0$5105$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> on Tue, 14 Nov 2006 22:53:38 +1100:
> >> What's a Greek Urn? > > > > Sorry, too hard. > > It was something like 15 drachmas a day when I first heard that one. No > doubt inflation has gone and changed the answer. Not to mention the Euro.
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Mark Brader - 14 Nov 2006 18:48 GMT Peter Moylan:
> > It was something like 15 drachmas a day when I first heard that one. No > > doubt inflation has gone and changed the answer. Nick Spalding:
> Not to mention the Euro. Not to mention the euro.
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Peter Moylan - 14 Nov 2006 11:51 GMT >>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 >>> years ago, let alone the composite noun construction. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > didn't just make up the term. Further rootling may turn up details > of exactly what it was. On a similar quest, I discovered "holland blind" in Charlotte Bronte's "Jane Eyre". Of course the book didn't say what mechanism was used to raise the blind, but at least we know that the term is of a respectable age.
 Signature Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
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John Dean - 15 Nov 2006 02:18 GMT >>>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 >>>> years ago, let alone the composite noun construction. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > raise the blind, but at least we know that the term is of a > respectable age. "holland" was just a kind of linen - the term is used elsewhere in the novel in relation to clothing. Which just means that Mr Rochester was operating a blind of some kind, and we already knew those had been around a while:
OED - "blind" 2. spec. A screen for a window, made of woven material mounted on a roller, of wire gauze, etc.; used to prevent the entrance of too much light, or to keep people from seeing in. Venetian blinds: those made of light laths fixed on strips of webbing. 1730 Window-Blind [see window n. 5a]. 1771 J. S. Copley in Copley-Pelham Lett. (1914) 142 Those Windows having new fassioned Blinds such as you see in Mr Clarke's Keeping room.
That seems to be a simple development of the earlier use of the word to describe anything that blocked line of sight.
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Donna Richoux - 11 Nov 2006 19:41 GMT > >I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years > >ago, let alone the composite noun construction. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > window, except that a sash window has counterweights whereas the > roller blind would need a weight heavy than the blind. Searching on <"roller blind" invented> didn't give me anything, but <"roller shade" invented> gave this:
http://www.pairault.fr/tontines/ono/dupont2.html Roller shades, invented around 1741, work with a spring-winding mechanism at one end of a wooden roller and a pin at the other end.
I don't see anything further.
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Mark Brader - 11 Nov 2006 22:04 GMT Marius Hancu:
>>>>> I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" >>>>> for windows, one which rolls up while being pulled up by a >>>>> spring? Jonathan Morton:
>>>> I'm sure that is exactly what is meant. Me too. I hadn't encountered the term before; to me that would be a "roller blind". But the sense of the passage is obvious, and as noted, it has been 100 years.
>>>Thanks. Marius Hancu:
>>> I was surprised to find "spring-blind," a composite noun using the >>> dash connector, in this text, now 100 years old. That's a hyphen, not a dash.
>>> I'd've thought such noun construction is of more recent date, but >>> it seems I was wrong. If anything, it was more common 100 years ago than now. Especially in British usage, where it seems have out of fashion only because of the punctuation-shortage crisis of the last 50 years.
Tony Cooper:
>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years >> ago, let alone the composite noun construction. I'm surprised that Tony's surprised. The late 19th century was probably the peak time in world history for purely mechanical inventions -- why wouldn't they have had roller blinds? Peter Duncanson:
> Yes, I too find it surprising. My doubts would be over the > availablity of suitable spring steel. Perhaps better alloys are available today, but geez, they had springs in the 19th century too.
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Paul Wolff - 11 Nov 2006 22:27 GMT >Marius Hancu: >>>>>> I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >Perhaps better alloys are available today, but geez, they had springs >in the 19th century too. Quite. The spring for a pocket watch works in just the same way as the spring for a roller blind (unless I'm jumping one conclusion too far). It's a wrap.
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Peter Duncanson - 11 Nov 2006 23:02 GMT >>Marius Hancu: >>>>>>> I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >spring for a roller blind (unless I'm jumping one conclusion too far). >It's a wrap. OK folks. Springs are in. Drop the suggested weights.
Anyway, the spring rollers will work in weightless conditions -- good for spaceships with bespoke interior decor.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Peter Moylan - 14 Nov 2006 11:57 GMT > Anyway, the spring rollers will work in weightless conditions -- > good for spaceships with bespoke interior decor. "Just the blind. Don't open the window. I said DON'T OPEN THE .... AARGH!"
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Peter Duncanson - 12 Nov 2006 12:24 GMT >>Marius Hancu: >>>>>>> I wonder if "spring-blind" here means a "spring-loaded blind" [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>Perhaps better alloys are available today, but geez, they had springs >>in the 19th century too. Absolutely. It was a time of great ingenuity and invention.
>Quite. The spring for a pocket watch works in just the same way as the >spring for a roller blind (unless I'm jumping one conclusion too far). >It's a wrap. I hesitated solely because I wondered whether a sufficiently compact spring could be constructed for the roller blind application.
The force that a watch or clock spring needs to exert is, I'd guess, rather less than that required to roll up a blind.
Having thought about weight-operated roller blinds I'm left wondering whether they were ever used.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Ray - 12 Nov 2006 22:42 GMT > The force that a watch or clock spring needs to exert is, I'd guess, > rather less than that required to roll up a blind. I have a windup mantel clock that takes a lot more torque to wind than any roller shade I've ever encountered. A wider key might be helpful.
Regarding the invention of roller shades (or blinds), I always assumed they were first created for Tom and Jerry cartoons.
Am I the only one here who calls them "roller shades"? This is the first time I ever encountered "roller blinds", as far as I can remember. Google shows approximately equal numbers of hits for the two phrases.
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Tony Cooper - 11 Nov 2006 23:08 GMT >Tony Cooper: >>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >probably the peak time in world history for purely mechanical >inventions -- why wouldn't they have had roller blinds? I'm surprised that Mark is surprised that I'm surprised. Most of the noted inventions of the period were of the practical sort like devices that removed corn from the cob or devices that cored apples.
I have visited many museums and restored 19th century houses. I've never seen - or at least noticed - a re-created 19th century room with a spring-loaded roller blind. All I can recall seeing are heavy drapes in 19th century rooms.
Perhaps historical exhibit designers don't give no respect to spring-loaded roller blinds.
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Tony Cooper Orlando, FL
Buckwheat Soba - 12 Nov 2006 02:03 GMT >>I'm surprised that Tony's surprised.
> I'm surprised that Mark is surprised that I'm surprised. I'm surprised that you're surprised that Mark is surprised that you're surprised.
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Tony Cooper - 12 Nov 2006 04:08 GMT >>>I'm surprised that Tony's surprised. > >> I'm surprised that Mark is surprised that I'm surprised. > >I'm surprised that you're surprised that Mark is surprised that you're >surprised. That doesn't surprise me.
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Roland Hutchinson - 12 Nov 2006 04:29 GMT >>>I'm surprised that Tony's surprised. > >> I'm surprised that Mark is surprised that I'm surprised. > > I'm surprised that you're surprised that Mark is surprised that you're > surprised. Why am I not surprised?
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the Omrud - 12 Nov 2006 09:40 GMT Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it:
> >Tony Cooper: > >>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I have visited many museums and restored 19th century houses. How many 19th century houses have you restored?
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John Dean - 12 Nov 2006 23:54 GMT >> Tony Cooper: >>>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Perhaps historical exhibit designers don't give no respect to > spring-loaded roller blinds. They're often obscured by the leopard-skin pillbox hats.
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John Dean - 12 Nov 2006 12:36 GMT > Tony Cooper: >>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > probably the peak time in world history for purely mechanical > inventions -- why wouldn't they have had roller blinds? Indeed. The inventor could have faxed details to his friends (but not yet have phoned them). He could have photographed his invention, and kept the plans in the refrigerator for safety (having typed them for legibility)
> Peter Duncanson: >> Yes, I too find it surprising. My doubts would be over the >> availablity of suitable spring steel. > > Perhaps better alloys are available today, but geez, they had springs > in the 19th century too. Indeed. How else would coach journeys have been made so comfortable? Actually, they had springs long, long before that. The great Robert Hooke, in the 17th Century had even identified a Law governing the behaviour of springs. To pluck cites from OED:
1428 Acts Privy Council (1834) III. 289 Item for amendyng of the spryng of the barell [of a clock] vjs viijd. [1472 in Rogers Agric. & Prices (1882) IV. 622 A spring to a clock is purchased by King's College, Cambridge, for 2d.] 1598 Florio, Molla, a wheele of a clocke that mooueth all the rest called the spring. 1599 T. M[oufet] Silkwormes 35 Ingenious Germane, how didst thou conuey Thy Springs, thy Scrues, thy rowells, and thy flie? 1611 Shakes. Cymb. ii. ii. 47 To th' Truncke againe, and shut the spring of it. 1677 Moxon Mech. Exerc. ii. 28 The Spring h forces the Bolt forwards when it is shot back with the Key. 1713 Lond. Gaz. No. 5155/4 A Gold Watch,+going with a Spring, Without Fusey, Chain or String. 1771 Encycl. Brit. III. 936 The quickness or slowness of the vibrations of the balance depend not solely upon the action of the great spring, but chiefly upon the action of the spring a, b, c, called the spiral spring.
and
1665 Pepys Diary 5 Sept., After dinner comes Colonel Blunt in his new chariot made with springs. 1706 Lond. Gaz. No. 4235/3 The sole Benefit of making and vending certain Steel Springs he hath+invented for ease of Persons riding in Coaches. 1794 W. Felton Carriages (1801) I. 72 Short light springs which contain but few plates, have frequently no hoops. 1837 W. B. Adams Carriages 117 What is technically understood in carriages by the term 'spring' is a plate or plates of tempered steel properly shaped to play in any required mode. 1876 Encycl. Brit. V. 137/1 The elliptic springs, upon which nearly all carriages are now mounted.
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Mark Brader - 12 Nov 2006 20:14 GMT Tony Cooper:
>>>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 years >>>> ago, let alone the composite noun construction. Mark Brader:
>> I'm surprised that Tony's surprised. The late 19th century was >> probably the peak time in world history for purely mechanical >> inventions -- why wouldn't they have had roller blinds? John Dean:
> Indeed. The inventor could have faxed details to his friends (but not yet > have phoned them). ... No, telephones are late 19th century too. The first public telephone systems had started before 1880. (Faxes are indeed older than that.)
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John Dean - 12 Nov 2006 23:43 GMT > Tony Cooper: >>>>> I'm surprised that spring-loaded roller blinds were around 100 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > No, telephones are late 19th century too. The first public telephone > systems had started before 1880. (Faxes are indeed older than that.) Which is why I spoke of the inventor of the blind who invented it c. 1850 when faxes were available but not when working, voice-capable phones were.
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Mark Brader - 13 Nov 2006 02:08 GMT John Dean:
>>> Indeed. The inventor could have faxed details to his friends (but >>> not yet have phoned them). ... Mark Brader:
>> No, telephones are late 19th century too... John Dean:
> Which is why I spoke of the inventor of the blind who invented it c. 1850 > when faxes were available but not when working, voice-capable phones were. Ah, sorry, I missed the fact that "inventor" implied a specific earlier date.
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