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Now, I give you fair warning

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Xah Lee - 11 Nov 2006 16:53 GMT
«‘Now, I give you fair warning,’ shouted the Queen, stamping on
the ground as she spoke; ‘either you or your head must be off, and
that in about half no time! Take your choice!’»

from Alice In Wonderland, Chapter 9
( http://xahlee.org/p/alice/alice-ch09.html )

According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
not the stammerer missing a a in «‘Now, I give you fair warning,»?

 Xah
 xah@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/
Vera - 11 Nov 2006 17:33 GMT
«'Now, I give you fair warning,' shouted the Queen, stamping on
the ground as she spoke; 'either you or your head must be off, and
that in about half no time! Take your choice!'»

from Alice In Wonderland, Chapter 9
( http://xahlee.org/p/alice/alice-ch09.html )

According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
not the stammerer missing a a in «'Now, I give you fair warning,»?

                         missing an "a" or just "a" and, as far as I know,
its
                         use is not essential in this case.

                         Vera

 Xah
 xah@xahlee.org
? http://xahlee.org/
Sweet Sugir - 11 Nov 2006 23:53 GMT
>                          use is not essential in this case.

O good...

Zah is  non-essential, like you.

If only you could be a muse or /something/...

Poetry is behond ewe.

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Dennis M. Hammes - 12 Nov 2006 10:21 GMT
> «'Now, I give you fair warning,' shouted the Queen, stamping on
> the ground as she spoke; 'either you or your head must be off, and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>   xah@xahlee.org
> ? http://xahlee.org/

"Fair Warning" is actually a formalism that does not take the article
but should be capped as a proper noun.
  When the actual use fell out of use, children grew up quoting what
they'd heard, only, and without the defining parameters.

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I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon.
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Lars Eighner - 11 Nov 2006 18:05 GMT
In our last episode,
<1163264008.895148.297370@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
the lovely and talented Xah Lee
broadcast on alt.usage.english:

> «?Now, I give you fair warning,? shouted the Queen, stamping on
> the ground as she spoke; ?either you or your head must be off, and
> that in about half no time! Take your choice!?»

> from Alice In Wonderland, Chapter 9
> ( http://xahlee.org/p/alice/alice-ch09.html )

> According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
> not the stammerer missing a a in «?Now, I give you fair warning,»?

No, it is idiomatic as written.  By "idiomatic," I mean I cannot explain
it.  Yes, it could be "give (a) fair warning," but usually it isn't.

He has had three warnings already.
I'll let you off this time with a warning.
I had no warning this could happen.

He stopped suddenly without warning.

Generally if "warning" means a thing that provides a warning such as a
notice, sign, citation or official proceeding of some kind, then "warning"
is countable.  But if "warning" means an act of warning then it may be
regarded as countable or not. If there is a rule, I do not know what it is.

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Sweet Sugir - 11 Nov 2006 23:58 GMT
> In our last episode,
> <1163264008.895148.297370@m7g2000cwm.googlegroups.com>,
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> is countable.  But if "warning" means an act of warning then it may be
> regarded as countable or not. If there is a rule, I do not know what it is.

You seem like a moron - generally.  By "generally" I mean
that a General has counted you with a warning.

Kaptain Kirk has placed a tractor beam on your Palm Roots...

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Dennis M. Hammes - 12 Nov 2006 10:23 GMT
Sweet Sugir bragged:

> a moron - generally.

We know.

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I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon.
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Martin Ambuhl - 11 Nov 2006 18:13 GMT
> According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
> not the stammerer missing a a in «‘Now, I give you fair warning,»?

No.  Why did you think so?
Sweet Sugir - 11 Nov 2006 23:54 GMT
>> According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
>> not the stammerer missing a a in «‘Now, I give you fair warning,»?
>
> No.  Why did you think so?

Because Zah is an idiot?

A Zimple guess...

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Dennis M. Hammes - 12 Nov 2006 10:24 GMT
> gerbil, gerbil, gerbil, gerbil...

Miss him, don't you.

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I do not "negotiate" for half my baby back, Solomon.
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Towse - 11 Nov 2006 21:05 GMT
> «‘Now, I give you fair warning,’ shouted the Queen, stamping on
> the ground as she spoke; ‘either you or your head must be off, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
> not the stammerer missing a a in «‘Now, I give you fair warning,»?

No.

<http://www.google.com/search?q=give+fair+warning>

>   Xah
>   xah@xahlee.org
> ∑ http://xahlee.org/

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Eric Walker - 11 Nov 2006 22:14 GMT
> «'Now, I give you fair warning,' shouted the Queen, stamping on
> the ground as she spoke; 'either you or your head must be off, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
> not the stammerer missing a[n] a in «'Now, I give you fair warning,»?

The right and idiomatic use of articles in English demonstrates the old
rule "short words, long problems"; in Follett's _Modern American
Usage_, the article titled "A, An, The" runs to 11 pages.

The presence or absence of the little monosyllable often conveys
important distinctions, as it does here.  The distinction at issue is
that between the definite and the indefinite, the particular and the
general.  Here, "*a* warning" would be a definite, particular caution
being issued; plain, article-less "warning" is indefinite and general,
merely the _concept_ "warning" as opposed to some particular warning.

While the remark is followed by an explicit warning, we can see the
distinction evidenced by the absence of a "that".  Compare the Queen's
actual remarks, with the ancillary material stripped, with an
alternative including the article:

«Now, I give you fair warning, either you or your head must be off,
and that in about half no time!»

«Now, I give you *a* fair warning *that* either you or your head must
be off, and that in about half no time!»

In Carroll's actual casting, the Queen's warning that follows is an
appendage to the remark, not a direct continuation of it; with the
article included, the comma after the initial clause must
correspondingly disappear, while in the original we feel that not only
is the comma necessary, we wonder if a semi-colon or an em dash isn't
really wanted, so unconnected is the actual, express warning from the
introductory statement.

The clause "I give you fair warning" thus signifies "I am alerting you
to a danger", but does not itself specify, or immediately lead into a
specification of, that danger.
Xah Lee - 12 Nov 2006 04:37 GMT
that's the best defense among the worthless. Thanks.

Xah
 xah@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/

> > «'Now, I give you fair warning,' shouted the Queen, stamping on
> > the ground as she spoke; 'either you or your head must be off, and
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> to a danger", but does not itself specify, or immediately lead into a
> specification of, that danger.
Oleg Lego - 12 Nov 2006 06:16 GMT
The Xah Lee entity posted thusly:

>«‘Now, I give you fair warning,’ shouted the Queen, stamping on
>the ground as she spoke; ‘either you or your head must be off, and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>According to standard grammarians and proper English style guiders, is
>not the stammerer missing a a in «‘Now, I give you fair warning,»?

I see you already have some good answers, but I am curious about your
use of "stammerer".  There is no stammering in the sentence.
Xah Lee - 12 Nov 2006 16:01 GMT
its author, Lewis Carroll, is a stammerer.

Xah Lee

> The Xah Lee entity posted thusly:
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I see you already have some good answers, but I am curious about your
> use of "stammerer".  There is no stammering in the sentence.
Robert Lieblich - 12 Nov 2006 16:07 GMT
> its author, Lewis Carroll, is a stammerer.

"Was"
dontbother - 12 Nov 2006 16:43 GMT
> Xah Lee wrote:
>>
>> its author, Lewis Carroll, is a stammerer.
>
> "Was"

Nope. "Is". I defintely saw him last night rappin' with Elvis and
Vlad (a.k.a. "The Count"). They all offered me something druggie to
drink. The stammer provided a terrific harmony.

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Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."

Robert Lieblich - 12 Nov 2006 16:54 GMT
> > Xah Lee wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Vlad (a.k.a. "The Count"). They all offered me something druggie to
> drink. The stammer provided a terrific harmony.

I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, Franke, but I'm not in your
class.

--
Alfred Hayes <http://www.peteseeger.net/joehill.htm>
the Omrud - 12 Nov 2006 17:17 GMT
Robert Lieblich <r_s_lieblich@yahoo.com> had it:

> > > Xah Lee wrote:
> > >>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night, Franke, but I'm not in your
> class.

Of course not.  If you were in his class, you'd be Taiwanese.

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=====

Xah Lee - 13 Nov 2006 04:00 GMT
the problem with English grammar, in particular, the inflectional
system, is that it meddles with content and thinking.

Exempli gratia:

I want to state that the person Lewis Carrol, stammers.

I am not concerned, about stating whether he is dead or alive. Nor,
whether he corrected his problem or stutters still.

I cannot be bothered to pollute my writings with thoughts i do not wish
to bring up in my readers.  It screws my expression and muddies the
meat.

The “standard” English practice: “its author, Lewis Carroll,
_was_ a stammerer” for a dead man has a bag of problems. By the was,
it flashes a distraction about the issue of dead or alive or whether he
corrected the problem. And in general, irrelevant and misleading.

For another episode on this exhibition with regards to the s or
plurality in English, see:
Plurality in English Grammar and Communication Effectiveness
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/bangu/plurality.html

 Xah
 xah@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/

> > its author, Lewis Carroll, is a stammerer.
>
> "Was"
Oleg Lego - 13 Nov 2006 04:16 GMT
The Xah Lee entity posted thusly:

>the problem with English grammar, in particular, the inflectional
>system, is that it meddles with content and thinking.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>to bring up in my readers.  It screws my expression and muddies the
>meat.

Well, you muddied it pretty well when you explicitly mentioned "the
stammerer" without context. It caused me enough of a hiccup to divert
me from the meat of the question, long enough so that others answered.
Amethyst Deceiver - 13 Nov 2006 18:54 GMT
>the problem with English grammar, in particular, the inflectional
>system, is that it meddles with content and thinking.
>
>Exempli gratia:
>
>I want to state that the person Lewis Carrol, stammers.

But he doesn't.
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My accent may vary

Roland Hutchinson - 13 Nov 2006 19:02 GMT
>>the problem with English grammar, in particular, the inflectional
>>system, is that it meddles with content and thinking.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> But he doesn't.

Moreover, he doesn't stammer for two reasons: (1) on account of being dead,
and (2) on account of there being no such person.

And (3) what is more, there never was any such person.

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Tony Cooper - 13 Nov 2006 20:13 GMT
>>>the problem with English grammar, in particular, the inflectional
>>>system, is that it meddles with content and thinking.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>And (3) what is more, there never was any such person.

I'm not sure I agree with (3).  What defines that a person exists or
existed?  The use of the name as given at birth?  The name is just the
tag we use to identify the person we're talking about.

That premise knocks (1) and (2) out of consideration since there very
well could be a living person named Lewis Carrol (sic) who was given
that name at birth.

Is an adopted person, given a new name by his adoptive parents, not
really a person because he or she is being called by the "wrong" name?

The Rev Dodgson was just as much Lewis Carroll as he was Charles
Lutwidge Dodgson.  The tag refers to the writer.

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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Roland Hutchinson - 13 Nov 2006 20:19 GMT
> The Rev Dodgson was just as much Lewis Carroll as he was Charles
> Lutwidge Dodgson.  The tag refers to the writer.

The Rev. Dodgson would have disagreed with you, I think.  At any rate he
used to have mail addressed to the other chap returned to sender.

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Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 Nov 2006 23:34 GMT
>> The Rev Dodgson was just as much Lewis Carroll as he was Charles
>> Lutwidge Dodgson.  The tag refers to the writer.
>
> The Rev. Dodgson would have disagreed with you, I think.  At any
> rate he used to have mail addressed to the other chap returned to
> sender.

It appears that it was a little more complicated than that.  Morton
Cohen writes in his biography of Carroll:

   Charles did try to isolate C.L. Dodgson from Lewis Carroll.  He
   returned unopened letters that arrived at Christ Church addressed
   to Lewis Carroll; he sought, unsuccessfully, to have Bodley's
   Librarian delete from the catalogue cross-references to his two
   names; he wrote third-person letters objecting to correspondents
   making the connection.  He appealed plaintively to the editor of a
   forthcoming _Dictionary of Anonymous and Pseudonymous Literature_
   to "erase the paragraph" in which he was mentioned, adding that if
   she had ever reaped any pleasure from reading his works, "do not,
   I entreat you, repay it by the cruelty of breaking through a
   disguise which it is my most earnest wish to maintain," and here
   he succeeded.

   But none of these efforts arose out of a deep-seated duality; they
   aimed only at retaining a semblance of privacy.

The implication I take from that is that letters addressed to "Lewis
Carroll" that went to his publisher were answered; it was only those
that linked Carroll and Dodgson that he returned.  As to why, Cohen
says later

   But Charles's efforts to keep his two identities separate were
   motivated by more than his wish for privacy.  He realized that if
   the world knew that Charles Dodgson and Lewis Carroll were one,
   professional pundits might shrug off his mathematical works;
   indeed some reviews of his serious books fell into that
   superficial mode when the writers linked the two names.

So it sounds as though he was both; he just didn't want people to
realize that they were the same person.

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Sweet Sugir - 14 Nov 2006 03:08 GMT
Zahlee.org is operated by people whose brain
was donated to shinance.

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