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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Joe Sestak = Joe Sixpack
Joe Sestak, a former Navy vice admiral who won a Republican House seat in Pennsylvania, said: "I honestly believe this nation in its vote has said: 'What are we doing in Iraq? We can't stay there.' I think they are rightfully leading the leaders to say, 'Set a date; move toward it.' " http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/us/politics/12class.html?ei=5094&en=c28b82096a 3935d5&hp=&ex=1163307600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all If it's good enough for Joe Sixpack, it's good enough for me. Yeah, this is supposed to be a nonpolitical forum: the AUE point is to provide the first known recorded usage of "Joe Sixpack" as an epithet for the ex-military guy. Can anyone antedate it? Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > Joe Sestak, a former Navy vice admiral who won a Republican House seat > in Pennsylvania, said: "I honestly believe this nation in its vote > has said: 'What are we doing in Iraq? We can't stay there.' I > think they are rightfully leading the leaders to say, 'Set a date; > move toward it.' " http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/us/politics/12class.html?ei=5094&en=c28b82 096a3935d5&hp=&ex=1163307600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all > If it's good enough for Joe Sixpack, it's good enough for me. > Yeah, this is supposed to be a nonpolitical forum: the AUE point is to > provide the first known recorded usage of "Joe Sixpack" as an > epithet for the ex-military guy. Can anyone antedate it? > > Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego "Joe Sixpack" has no military conotations. It is not an epithet either, it is just the average american male. > "Joe Sixpack" has no military conotations. It is not an epithet either, it > is just the average american male. Isn't calling a former vice admiral, now a US congressman-elect, an "average American male" rather offensive? Consider this excerpt from OED2's entry for "epithet, n.:" [1.] b. An offensive or derogatory expression used of a person; an abusive term; a profanity. Cf. epitheted ppl. a. c. [1712 Arbuthnot Lewis Baboon turned Honest i. 2 Blockhead, Dunce, a.s, Coxcomb, were the best Epithets he gave poor John.] ... 1981 S. Wentworth Say Hello to Yesterday v. 103 'You louse! You swine!' With every epithet she hit out at him blindly. Botanists use "epithet" in a much less loaded way -- it's simply an ascribed quality. I like the greatly increased flexibility of the word when understood in that sense, just a concatenation. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > "Joe Sixpack" has no military conotations. It is not an epithet either, it > > is just the average american male. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > [ No. And I don't care what the OED calls it, nobody is offended by it. An epithet that doesn't offend is not an epithet. And where is the Admiral called "Joe Sixpack". [...] > [T]he AUE point is to provide the first known recorded usage of > "Joe Sixpack" as an epithet for the ex-military guy. That is not it's meaning: it signifies "the average Joe", or "man in the street". The name was apparently coined, in the slightly different form "Joe Sikspak", by the late San Francisco humor columnist Art Hoppe; Hoppe's characteristic use was to present a feigned letter addressed to someone in government and signed "Joe Sikspak, American". Joe was presented as a somewhat low-wattage redneck. (See-- http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2000/02/03/MN9 8987.DTL --for a citation; but I myself well remember Hoppe's columns using it at least as far back as the early 70s.) > > [T]he AUE point is to provide the first known recorded usage of > > "Joe Sixpack" as an epithet for the ex-military guy. > > That is not it's meaning: it signifies "the average Joe", or "man in > the street". Quote: “An epithet (Greek - επιθετον and Latin - epitheton; literally meaning 'imposed') is a descriptive word or phrase. It has various shades of meaning when applied to real or fictitious people, divinities, objects and biological nomenclature. It also means a derogatory word or phrase used to insult someone.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epithet I don’t mean to insult the guy – his quotation in the paper today is one us Joe Sixpacks want to support, not denigrate. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego [...] > Quote: > “An epithet (Greek - επιθετον and Latin - epitheton; . . . . Just so. I was not addressing the use of the term "epithet" but rather that of who or what the epithet characterizes. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Just so. I was not addressing the use of the term "epithet" but rather > that of who or what the epithet characterizes. My title for this thread imposes the phrase, "Joe Sixpack," on Joe Sestak. Is the practice here is to ignore thread titles? Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >My title for this thread imposes the phrase, "Joe Sixpack," on Joe >Sestak. Is the practice here is to ignore thread titles? Yes, is the quick answer to that question. From time to time someone here will point out that many people do not, for various reasons, read thread titles. The customary request is to repeat the thread title in the body of the message, so as to make the message complete.  SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > >My title for this thread imposes the phrase, "Joe Sixpack," on Joe > >Sestak. Is the practice here is to ignore thread titles? > > > Yes, is the quick answer to that question. My backhand repetition, in the line "If it's good enough for Joe Sixpack, it's good enough for me," was obviously too subtle. Would I be wrong to read the somewhat barbed postings in this thread as wrist-slapping for having started a barbecue-stopping (ie, political) thread? I have to admit to a very strong resentment against the NYTimes and other media for glossing over the "get out of Iraq" message in Tuesday's election; eg, NBC chose two pro-war pols to interview in today's "Meet the Press." Keith Ellison, the Black Muslim who won in MN, made "immediate withdrawal now" his number one position, but all the various media say is that he was antiwar in his campaign (then moving quickly to address other remarkable features of his victory). Joe Sestak accurately summarized the message of the voters, but it's at the bottom of the two-page NYTimes' article. The drums for the war will continue not much abashed by the voters' action --what else is new? Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego [among other things] > The drums > for the war will continue not much abashed by the voters' action > --what else is new? I'm a-guessin' they'll be a-bashed for a while longer, all right. I've seen one plan that calls for a fairly prompt withdrawal from Iraq, and redeployment of those troops to Afghanistan. On the whole, it actually makes a little more sense than the current plan, whatever it may be. Signaturerzed Eric Walker wrote: > tinwhistler wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Just so. I was not addressing the use of the term "epithet" but rather > that of who or what the epithet characterizes. My title for this thread imposes the phrase, "Joe Sixpack," on Joe Sestak. Is the practice here is to ignore thread titles? Obviously you are a TROLL looking for a fight. take it to alt.politics. there you can have a fight. > Obviously you are a TROLL looking for a fight. > take it to alt.politics. there you can have a fight. Looking for peace in all the wrong places, I guess. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > The name was apparently coined, in the slightly different form "Joe > Sikspak", by the late San Francisco humor columnist Art Hoppe; Hoppe's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > --for a citation; but I myself well remember Hoppe's columns using it > at least as far back as the early 70s.) Barry Popik at ADS, on 27 July 2003, posted his earliest sighting of "Joe Sixpack:" http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0307D&L=ADS-L&P=R3787&I=-3 10 September 1973, COSHOCTON TRIBUNE (Coshocton, Ohio), pg. 6, col. 1: In this (Dick--ed.) Dougherty is not all that different, having an idea to sell Joe Sixpack on tax reform and Sen. George McGovern and colliding several times during the campaign with Gordon Weil, who was the senator's ("We never call the senator George in public.") right hand protector and nag during much of the long campaign. The author of the OH paper could well have encountered Hoppe's prior usage of "Joe Sikspak" -- maybe someone with newpaper archive (searchable) subscription could confirm a Hoppe antedate. (??) Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego >[...] > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >in government and signed "Joe Sikspak, American". Joe was presented as >a somewhat low-wattage redneck. Mike Royko, Pulitzer Prize winner and columnist for the Chicago Sun- Times, named his average character "Slats Grobnik". You can read about Slat's life at http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/730735.html SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > Joe Sestak, a former Navy vice admiral who won a Republican House seat > in Pennsylvania, said: "I honestly believe this nation in its vote > has said: 'What are we doing in Iraq? We can't stay there.' I > think they are rightfully leading the leaders to say, 'Set a date; > move toward it.' " http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/12/us/politics/12class.html?ei=5094&en=c2 8b82096a3935d5&hp=&ex=1163307600&partner=homepage&pagewanted=all > If it's good enough for Joe Sixpack, it's good enough for me. > Yeah, this is supposed to be a nonpolitical forum: the AUE point is to > provide the first known recorded usage of "Joe Sixpack" as an > epithet for the ex-military guy. Can anyone antedate it? > It's not military. Nor does the article say that anyone called Sestak, Sixpack -- did they? Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang (RHHDAS): Joe Sixpack n. the ordinary beer-drinking working man. 1977 L.A. Times (Nov. 8) By that time Billy had become a ort of Joe Sixpack folk hero. [Remaining citations snipped.] SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > It's not military. Nor does the article say that anyone called Sestak, > Sixpack -- did they? No -- my title for this thread is the first imposing on Sestak of the concatenation, "Joe Sixpack," that I could find. The quest for an antedate had better succeed lest I be credited for the first coining of such. I don't want to be great -- Joe Sixpack status is all I aspire to. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > It's not military. Nor does the article say that anyone called Sestak, > > Sixpack -- did they? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > such. I don't want to be great -- Joe Sixpack status is all I aspire > to. The only title you will ascend to is usenet a.s. Donna Richoux: > > It's not military. Nor does the article say that anyone called Sestak, > > Sixpack -- did they? Ozzie Maland: > No -- my title for this thread is the first ... Plonk. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto | "This one isn't close. It's not even close to msb@vex.net | being close." --Adam Beneschan >> It's not military. Nor does the article say that anyone called >> Sestak, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > such. I don't want to be great -- Joe Sixpack status is all I aspire > to. But you aren't coining anything. You are applying the term for an everyday guy to an "unknown known" (to paraphrase our nearly former defense sec'y.) Except for the fact that he has won, Sestak kinda reminds me of Perot's erstwhile running mate, who at least earned the post of admiral. > But you aren't coining anything. Sestak, in the NYTimes article cited, purports to identify the voting sentiment of the average USer last Tuesday, the "Joe Sixpack" voter expression. I applied the phrase "Joe Sixpack" to Sestak as a result, and if the phrase has legs as a meme, or is rejuvenated as a pro or con epithet in one or more subsequent campaigns, a trail is created as to where and when Joe Sestak was first called "Joe Sixpack" (assuming there are no antedates -- I would expect there are some, particularly among his junior officers in the Navy.) I used "coining" in the sense of creating a new concatenation, like Churchill coining "iron curtain" as the phrase applicable to the USSR's sealing off Eastern Europe. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > Sestak, in the NYTimes article cited, purports to identify the voting > sentiment of the average USer last Tuesday, the "Joe Sixpack" voter > expression. --------------- IME, "Joe Sixpack" type guys do not vote. DianeE >>> It's not military. Nor does the article say that anyone called >>> Sestak, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >reminds me of Perot's erstwhile running mate, who at least earned the >post of admiral. I recall the usages from the Caspar Weinburger days as SecDef, or earlier. There are knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns, the most difficult ones to forecast and budget for. The last two make little sense, until you think about them. What I don't know is if these terms are limited to the Department of Defence, or not. I suspect they have far wider application. SignatureCharles Riggs >>> No -- my title for this thread is the first imposing on Sestak of >>> the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > these terms are limited to the Department of Defence, or not. I > suspect they have far wider application. I only heard the usages recently in reference to Rummy. I didn't realize the Cap had used the terms. I certainly think they may have broader than the current use. |
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