He loves it in rather an untaking way
|
|
Thread rating:  |
Marius Hancu - 12 Nov 2006 20:53 GMT Hello:
I wonder what "untaking" may mean here?
Could it be "unpleasant" (say, related to "to take to something")? or "without (really) assuming ownership"?
----- [The sisters debate whether to spend the night together at Howard's End]
Margaret hesitated. "I feel Charles wouldn't like it," she said at last. "Even our furniture annoyed him, and I was going to clear it out when Aunt Juley's illness prevented me. I sympathize with Charles. He feels it's his mother's house. He loves it in rather an untaking way. Henry I could answer for--not Charles."
Howards End - E. M. Forster, p. 343 http://forster.thefreelibrary.com/Howards-End/37-1 ------
Thank you. Marius Hancu
mike.j.harvey@gmail.com - 12 Nov 2006 21:01 GMT > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Howards End - E. M. Forster, p. 343 > http://forster.thefreelibrary.com/Howards-End/37-1 It's an online e-book version. I wonder if it was scanned & OCRd and that word should be 'unthinking' which would fit quite well.
Marius Hancu - 12 Nov 2006 21:09 GMT > > Margaret hesitated. "I feel Charles wouldn't like it," she said at > > last. "Even our furniture annoyed him, and I was going to clear it out [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > It's an online e-book version. I wonder if it was scanned & OCRd and > that word should be 'unthinking' which would fit quite well. I am really reading a printed version, in which it's the same.
I gave an URL only for reference purposes, should someone want more context.
Marius Hancu
the Omrud - 12 Nov 2006 21:20 GMT Marius Hancu <Marius.Hancu@gmail.com> had it:
> > > Margaret hesitated. "I feel Charles wouldn't like it," she said at > > > last. "Even our furniture annoyed him, and I was going to clear it out [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I gave an URL only for reference purposes, should someone want more > context. Thanks. In which case, it's not readily understandable to 21st Century English speakers.
 Signature David =====
Peter Moylan - 14 Nov 2006 12:03 GMT > Marius Hancu <Marius.Hancu@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Thanks. In which case, it's not readily understandable to 21st > Century English speakers. Yet the same people would readily understand "in an unfetching way", which to me means essentially the same thing.
 Signature Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time.
the Omrud - 12 Nov 2006 21:19 GMT <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> had it:
> > Hello: > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > It's an online e-book version. I wonder if it was scanned & OCRd and > that word should be 'unthinking' which would fit quite well. I've checked every copy of Howard's End I can find online, and it's always "untaking", which might mean it's right, or might mean that they all have the same source. Has anybody got the book to hand?
I wonder if it should be "uncaring".
 Signature David =====
Robin Bignall - 12 Nov 2006 23:19 GMT > <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >I wonder if it should be "uncaring". I don't think so. Charles seemingly loves the house. I haven't read the book, but from context, Charles sees it as his mother's house, doesn't want anyone to stay in it or change it by moving their furniture in and, in effect, wants to keep it as it is without, presumably, wanting to live in it himself. Dog-in-a-manger attitude? Doesn't want to take it himself but doesn't want anyone else to use it? Even for its time, it's a curious choice of word if it's not a copying error.
 Signature Robin Herts, England
Marius Hancu - 13 Nov 2006 00:05 GMT > Dog-in-a-manger attitude? Thank you for reminding me of the term:-)
Marius Hancu
tinwhistler - 13 Nov 2006 04:56 GMT > Even for its time, it's a curious choice of word if it's not a > copying error. The book came out in 1910, and thus was written at a time when Galsworthy's _Man of Property_ was being read and talked about -- that was a 1906 work. The central image of the earlier book is summarized by a Wiki article:
"...The main character, Soames Forsyte, sees himself as a "man of property," by virtue of his ability to accumulate material possessions-but this does not succeed in bringing him pleasure.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsyte_Saga
I'm thinking that in the world of 1910, the sense of "untaking love" would not have been regarded as a curious one owing to Soames' obsessive acquisitiveness, time after time.
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Robert Bannister - 12 Nov 2006 23:37 GMT > <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I wonder if it should be "uncaring". There is a rather infrequently used idiom: "has taking ways" or "a taking manner", where "taking" means "attractive". Perhaps then "untaking" might be "unattractive".
 Signature Rob Bannister
Roland Hutchinson - 13 Nov 2006 03:02 GMT >> I've checked every copy of Howard's End I can find online, and it's >> always "untaking", which might mean it's right, or might mean that [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > taking manner", where "taking" means "attractive". Perhaps then > "untaking" might be "unattractive". For what it's worth, that's the way I took it. But I had to think about it. I don't remember encountering "untaking" in this sense before. Still, as "un-" remains a productive suffix in contemporary English, there's no reason to _not_ understand "untaking" if one can cast about for a sense of "taking" that fits the context.
 Signature Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Nov 2006 10:24 GMT > <mike.j.harvey@gmail.com> had it:
>>> I wonder what "untaking" may mean here? >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>> Howards End - E. M. Forster, p. 343 >>> http://forster.thefreelibrary.com/Howards-End/37-1
>> It's an online e-book version. I wonder if it was scanned & OCRd and >> that word should be 'unthinking' which would fit quite well.
> I've checked every copy of Howard's End I can find online, and it's > always "untaking", which might mean it's right, or might mean that > they all have the same source. Has anybody got the book to hand? > > I wonder if it should be "uncaring". I am sure the word is as Forster intended. The word is not in my 1950s dictionary, which I generally find quite good for usages which are just turning archaic, so I don't think it's an archaism. It's a made-up word, but then "un" is a productive prefix, so perfectly allowable. In fact I find the usage quite evocative, it suggests to me a rather cold sort of love, almost done out of duty, so "uncaring" might be close. What Charles is not taking is the full emotions usually associated with love - he is giving the affections out of duty, and not expecting or wanting anything back.
Matthew Huntbach
Matthew Huntbach - 13 Nov 2006 15:49 GMT >> I've checked every copy of Howard's End I can find online, and it's >> always "untaking", which might mean it's right, or might mean that >> they all have the same source. Has anybody got the book to hand? >> >> I wonder if it should be "uncaring".
> I am sure the word is as Forster intended. The word is not in my 1950s > dictionary, which I generally find quite good for usages which are just [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > giving the affections out of duty, and not expecting or wanting anything > back. A Google on "untaking" reveals most usages of the word are where "undertaking" is really meant, but a few where a previous definition of "take" in some circumstance has been defined, and "untake" is meant to be the reverse of that action. I was surprised to find the word does not appear to have been used anywhere else in the sense in which Forster uses it here.
Matthew Huntbach
John Dean - 12 Nov 2006 23:37 GMT > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > feels it's his mother's house. He loves it in rather an untaking > way. Henry I could answer for--not Charles." I'd say "unattractive" = opposite of "taking" which can mean "appealing, winning, attractive". For example, OED has "a1721 Prior Songs xv. 11 Phillis has such a taking way, She charms my very soul. " For "untaking" there's "1885 O. Crawfurd Woman's Reput. i, She has a harsh voice or an untaking manner."
I think Margaret is saying she doesn't like the way Charles loves, or demonstrates his love for, his mother's house.
 Signature John Dean Oxford
Marius Hancu - 12 Nov 2006 23:45 GMT > > Margaret hesitated. "I feel Charles wouldn't like it," she said at > > last. "Even our furniture annoyed him, and I was going to clear it out [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I think Margaret is saying she doesn't like the way Charles loves, or > demonstrates his love for, his mother's house. Great to see these OED quotes.
Thanks. Marius Hancu
Peter Duncanson - 13 Nov 2006 00:34 GMT >> > Margaret hesitated. "I feel Charles wouldn't like it," she said at >> > last. "Even our furniture annoyed him, and I was going to clear it out [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >Great to see these OED quotes. "Taking" is also in Encarta: http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/taking.html
1. charming: displaying a charming or fascinating appeal
A word with a similar meaning that is in more common use today is "fetching": http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861611117/fetching.html
1. charming: having a charming or captivating quality
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
bayskater - 13 Nov 2006 03:49 GMT >>> > Margaret hesitated. "I feel Charles wouldn't like it," she said at >>> > last. "Even our furniture annoyed him, and I was going to clear it out >>> > when Aunt Juley's illness prevented me. I sympathize with Charles. He >>> > feels it's his mother's house. He loves it in rather an untaking >>> > way. Henry I could answer for--not Charles." It is said that love is a "Give-and-take" experience. Perhaps untaking may indicate an unselfish love that gives but doesn't take. Hard to apply that towards a house, though.
Fred
|
|
|