Spoken English is in diglossia with written English: how do you like my idea?
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Daniel al-Autistiqui - 13 Nov 2006 16:46 GMT Sometimes I feel like English should really be considered *two* languages, written English and spoken English -- a kind of diglossia, I guess. Thus, when people are reading aloud a passage of written or "High" English, they are merely *translating* the text into spoken or "Low" English. From here we could proceed to explain the incongruities in words like "lead"/"led" by saying that the present- and past-tense forms of the verb differ in both "High" English and "Low" English, but the name of the metal carries the shape of the present-tense verb in "High" English and the shape of the past-tense verb in "Low" English. (It is of course possible to *write* "Low" English, as when one uses a system like the IPA; and presumably it is possible to speak "High" English as well.)
I feel like there's a problem with this idea, but I don't seem to be able to explain exactly what it is.
daniel mcgrath
 Signature Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende": for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"
Developmentally disabled; has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder), Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, & periodic bouts of depression. [This signature is under construction.]
Django Cat - 13 Nov 2006 17:54 GMT > Sometimes I feel like English should really be considered *two* > languages, written English and spoken English -- a kind of diglossia, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I feel like there's a problem with this idea, but I don't seem to be > able to explain exactly what it is. There's a lot in that, Daniel. A while back I was part of a thread discussing German-speaking learners of English. When my German speaking students encounter a contraction such as "I'm" in a text - say in a dialogue - which they're reading aloud, they always insist on speaking it as "I am". German speakers are used to a language with 'high' and 'low' forms, and tend to make judgements about the 'quality' of the language they encounter - and many seem to think using a contraction like 'can't' in writing is evidence of 'low', uneducated language.
DC
Don Phillipson - 13 Nov 2006 18:38 GMT > when people are reading aloud a passage of written or > "High" English, they are merely *translating* the text into spoken or > "Low" English. This would be true only if it satisfied two conditions: 1. High English differed from Low English in either grammar, lexicon or both. 2. People reading aloud altered the written grammar or lexicon to conform to the norms of Low English.
But this would not be "reading aloud" as we commonly use this phrase.
> From here we could proceed to explain the > incongruities in words like "lead"/"led" by saying that the present- > and past-tense forms of the verb differ in both "High" English and > "Low" English, but the name of the metal carries the shape of the > present-tense verb in "High" English and the shape of the past-tense > verb in "Low" English. No, or at least not by the common linguistic methods we are all presumed to endorse: 1. The verb lead/led thus indicates that it is a "weak" or "irregular" verb, characteristically different from strong or regular verbs, e.g. bound/bounded, fill/filled etc. 2. There is no relationship between the verb lead and the noun lead except that they are homophones (sound the same.) This is not a functional relationship. 3. "Shape" has not yet been found to be a useful concept in linguistics.
 Signature Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
Evan Kirshenbaum - 13 Nov 2006 19:13 GMT >> when people are reading aloud a passage of written or "High" >> English, they are merely *translating* the text into spoken or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > But this would not be "reading aloud" as we commonly use this > phrase. You might be surprised. I suspect that most people when reading aloud a text that doesn't use contractions will substitute them without even thinking about it unless they're being careful to read the text "exactly as written".
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Pierre Jelenc - 13 Nov 2006 20:56 GMT > 1. The verb lead/led thus indicates that it is a "weak" or > "irregular" verb, characteristically different from strong or > regular verbs, e.g. bound/bounded, fill/filled etc. Weak verbs are those that form past and past participle with a dental suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and irregular (think - thought) weak verbs, and some that can be both (leap - leaped/leapt).
Strong verbs use vowel modification (ablaut) in the root, according to the class to which the verb belongs, and usually with a past participle in -(e)n. They are sort of irregular, except that they do follow *some* rules, except for those that are really, really irregular.
Then there are the verbs that are both strong and weak (dive -dove/dived), or used to be strong but are now weak (help).
There's a long list of strong and irregular weak verbs at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_irregular_verbs
Pierre
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Peter T. Daniels - 13 Nov 2006 22:33 GMT > > 1. The verb lead/led thus indicates that it is a "weak" or > > "irregular" verb, characteristically different from strong or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and irregular (think > - thought) weak verbs, and some that can be both (leap - leaped/leapt). There is no "sleeped."
> Strong verbs use vowel modification (ablaut) in the root, according to the > class to which the verb belongs, and usually with a past participle in [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > The Gigometer | Pepper Of The Earth: the HO blog > www.gigometer.com | www.homeofficerecords.com/blog Pierre Jelenc - 14 Nov 2006 14:08 GMT > > suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and irregular (think > > There is no "sleeped." What was I thinking? I had a regular verb and did some editing... I must have slept. Thanks for catching it!
Pierre
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Peter T. Daniels - 14 Nov 2006 15:15 GMT > > > suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and irregular (think > > > > There is no "sleeped." > > What was I thinking? I had a regular verb and did some editing... I must > have slept. Thanks for catching it! I think it's stupid to put think/thought/thought in the same category as walk/walked/walked anyway.
Language Archives - 14 Nov 2006 16:24 GMT >>>> suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and irregular (think >>> There is no "sleeped." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think it's stupid to put think/thought/thought in the same category > as walk/walked/walked anyway. Why? If we use a system of strong and weak verbs, think is a weak verb. If we use a system of regular and irregular verbs, think is an irregular verb. Of course, the former is primarily a historical designation (after all, thought shows considerable sound change!) and the latter is one I would describe as used by school teachers.
As you might guess, Peter, I tend to the historical label. :-)
Barbara
Barbara Need UChicago
Peter T. Daniels - 14 Nov 2006 21:09 GMT > >>>> suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and irregular (think > >>> There is no "sleeped." [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > As you might guess, Peter, I tend to the historical label. :-) The "strong/weak" system makes no sense for Modern English.
Also, it's opposite in sense to strong/weak used of Semitic verbs.
I got my Graggfest proofs (finally!) today. I don't remember you being in the audience?
Language Archives - 15 Nov 2006 15:23 GMT >>>>>> suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and irregular (think >>>>> There is no "sleeped." [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The "strong/weak" system makes no sense for Modern English. As I said, I tend to have a historical perspective on this.
> Also, it's opposite in sense to strong/weak used of Semitic verbs. Well sorry! :-) (So, not knowing anything about Semitic verbs, what does this distinction mean there?)
> I got my Graggfest proofs (finally!) today. I don't remember you being > in the audience? I was there. I think I missed your talk (I was working), but I was there from the end of the day Friday and all day Saturday.
Barbara
Peter T. Daniels - 15 Nov 2006 17:19 GMT > > The "strong/weak" system makes no sense for Modern English. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well sorry! :-) (So, not knowing anything about Semitic verbs, what does > this distinction mean there?) The strong roots are the ones with three consonants that don't undergo any changes; the weak ones are those with w, y, ', duplication, etc., that deviate from the regular paradigm in sometimes complicated but always strictly predictable ways.
> > I got my Graggfest proofs (finally!) today. I don't remember you being > > in the audience? > > I was there. I think I missed your talk (I was working), but I was there > from the end of the day Friday and all day Saturday. Then that doesn't count!
Helmut Richter - 16 Nov 2006 15:32 GMT [ ... Semitic verbs ]
> The strong roots are the ones with three consonants that don't undergo > any changes; the weak ones are those with w, y, ', duplication, etc., > that deviate from the regular paradigm in sometimes complicated but > always strictly predictable ways. While I would subscribe to the "sometimes complicated" ways, I am sceptical about "always strictly predictable", at least for the Hebrew. I have once tried to write down the rules for myself in a more algorithmic manner than is customary for grammars, and have soon given up.
An example of a rule which I was unable to write down in a way that it has not multiple exceptions:
Rule for middle radical Waw or Yod: The 3sg-m form of the Piel depends on the middle radical:
* If the middle radical is Yod, the form consists of the first radical with Chireq, a Yod with Dagesh and Tsere, and the third radical. This is the same rule as for strong verbs.
* If the middle radical is Waw, the form consists of the first radical with Cholam-gadol, the third radical with Tsere and the third radical reduplicated.
Exception for roots KWN ("intend", not "prepare"), DWX, KWC, RWX. The Waw gets a Dagesh in the same way as a Yod would get, i.e. the form consists of the first radical with Chireq, a Waw with Dagesh and Tsere, and the third radical.
Exception for roots BW$, DWN, XWB. The middle radical, Waw, is changed into Yod, and then the standard rule for Yod is applied.
Exception for roots BYN, &YX. The middle radical, Yod, is changed into Waw, and then the standard rule for Waw is applied.
With more diachronic knowledge, the last two sets of exceptions could perhaps be explained, but "always strictly predictable" seems to underestimate the complexity.
 Signature Helmut Richter
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Nov 2006 20:24 GMT > [ ... Semitic verbs ] > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > perhaps be explained, but "always strictly predictable" seems to > underestimate the complexity. There is no incompatibility between extreme complexity and complete predictability.
Looks like you need John McCarthy's MIT dissertation. (Unfortunately it begat autosegmental phonology, but it's a phonological description of Biblical Hebrew.)
Keep in mind, also, that the Masoretic pointing is phonetic, not phonemic, and thus can be very difficult to interpret. (Like the Avestan alphabet.)
Arabic is of course much less complex; for that, Michael Brame's dissertation achieved excellent results using only the mechanisms of SPE. AFAIK it was never published, because it made no theoretical contribution, but we used it in Structure of Arabic class.
Peter Moylan - 14 Nov 2006 23:54 GMT >>>> suffix, d or t. There are regular (sleep - sleeped) and >>>> irregular (think [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I think it's stupid to put think/thought/thought in the same category > as walk/walked/walked anyway. As I read it, Pierre was describing a four-way classification: weak vs strong on one axis, regular vs irregular on the other. To the extent that it made me think of a different way of describing English verbs, it was a very positive step forward in understanding. I like it.
The more typical "regular" vs "irregular" has always struck me as a sloppy sorting system, especially when you can make more verbs regular by inventing more categories. I've seen an extreme example of this in one of my books (I now forget which) on French verbs. The traditional method is to group French verbs into three regular paradigms, plus a large bucket called "irregular". The book in question instead presented about 50-100 "regular" classes - some of them, admittedly, very small - and in the process trimmed down the number of irregular verbs to almost nothing. That went a little too far, in my opinion, but it was helpful.
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ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com - 13 Nov 2006 19:15 GMT > Sometimes I feel like English should really be considered *two* > languages, written English and spoken English -- a kind of diglossia, > I guess. A hilarious example of diglossia: A few decades back, in Coimbatore, Tamilnadu, a schoolboy started reading American comics and telling his classmates about their contents, using pronunciations such as [wVn.n.A] for <wanna>.
Nigel Greenwood - 14 Nov 2006 10:03 GMT > A hilarious example of diglossia: > A few decades back, in Coimbatore, Tamilnadu, a schoolboy started > reading American comics and telling his classmates about their > contents, using pronunciations such as [wVn.n.A] for <wanna>. Years ago I heard a Greek tycoon reading Tintin to his young son, pronouncing "hein?" as /xE"in/, more or less.
Nigel
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Peter Moylan - 14 Nov 2006 12:42 GMT > Years ago I heard a Greek tycoon reading Tintin to his young son, > pronouncing "hein?" as /xE"in/, more or less. Not long after I first met my wife I was struck by the fact that she so often spoke about "Andy" in telephone conversations with other people. It turned out that she was (quite unconsciously) finishing her questions with "hein, dis ?"
This furthered my education in French. Until then I had only met "hein" in the written form, and I had been mentally pronouncing it as if were German.
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mb - 13 Nov 2006 19:36 GMT > Sometimes I feel like English should really be considered *two* > languages, written English and spoken English -- a kind of diglossia, > I guess. Any language with a written standard has some amount of diglossia. A question of degree.
Generally people will react to this observation by observing that English is far from the classical examples of full-blown diglossia like Greek, Arabic, etc.
One possible test would be to find or imagine totally uneducated speakers of the vernaculars and see if the standard language is entirely intelligible to them. Another one would be to see if the "high" standard is the native spoken language of at least a minority or if the use of the "high" variety, reserved to only writing and formal venues, is awkward for even well-educated people.
> Thus, when people are reading aloud a passage of written or > "High" English, they are merely *translating* the text into spoken or > "Low" English. Can't agree there (see your own parenthesis below). Most people don't speak the same language as the standard (no matter if written or oral) in the street or at home. The difference is in structure, vocabulary, etc., not only in the sounds. But (contrary to today's French, for example) there still is a substantial minority whose native vernacular is some kind of book English. It looks as if the reason for this is not that people speak bookish, but that the "high" standard is continually adapting itself to the most popular versions of the spoken language.
> (It is of course possible to *write* "Low" > English, as when one uses a system like the IPA; and presumably it is > possible to speak "High" English as well.) ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com - 15 Nov 2006 11:53 GMT > > Sometimes I feel like English should really be considered *two* > > languages, written English and spoken English -- a kind of diglossia, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > if the use of the "high" variety, reserved to only writing and formal > venues, is awkward for even well-educated people. It would have been dashed awkward for Thomas Hardy and Alistir Maclean to speak sentences as long as the ones they wrote in "Far From the Madding Crowd" and "HMS Ulysses".
mb - 15 Nov 2006 21:10 GMT > > > Sometimes I feel like English should really be considered *two* > > > languages, written English and spoken English -- a kind of diglossia, > > > I guess. ...
> > Generally people will react to this observation by observing that > > English is far from the classical examples of full-blown diglossia like [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to speak sentences as long as the ones they wrote in "Far From the > Madding Crowd" and "HMS Ulysses". Chuckle. You almost put me to sleep by mentioning that.
Now, to remain in the pedantic mood, you are pointing to another feature that distinguishes advanced diglossia from mild degrees like English:
When you have to *speak in a written standard language which is noticeably different from your spoken (and native) one, you'll tend to organize your discourse as a written text, i.e. in full sentences including relatives, a minimum of redundancy, fillers placed not where you'd expect them in natural speech but where they are needed to buy time while redacting the next sentence in your head, etc. The main characteristics of speech will be absent when speaking in the high language. A look at oral Katharevousa Greek, official French in oratory language, etc. will confirm it.
Would be interesting to ask Yusuf if speech in Standard Arabic conforms to the model.
English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary style and speak in the spoken style, using essentially the same grammar and vocabulary (even McLean).
Mike Lyle - 15 Nov 2006 21:25 GMT [...]
> English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary > style and speak in the spoken style, using essentially the same grammar > and vocabulary (even McLean). I'd add to mb's sound comments that there is a very small number of people who do habitually speak written English, and though the differences are slight it sticks out a mile. I only know one personally, and was once about to discuss it with her (we were, I thought, close enough friends for it to be possible) but my then wife suppressed my enquiry, so I still don't know how it came about. A public figure who did it was Enoch Powell, and I think it contributed respectively to the distrust and the admiration in which he was held by sections of the British public. (I'm distinguishing here between written English and high-register spoken English, though I'd be pushed to explain the distinction.)
 Signature Mike.
Paul Wolff - 15 Nov 2006 22:29 GMT >[...] >> English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >written English and high-register spoken English, though I'd be pushed >to explain the distinction.) I have for a long time been impressed by John Major's ability to speak in coherent and apparently grammatical sentences. For those who aren't up with British politics, he was the last but three leader of the Conservative party, and surprised everyone by winning a general election after the ousting of Mrs T. He lacked much by way of formal education, and didn't show intellect in the manner Powell did (or possibly in any manner save in his personal achievements, his love of cricket, and his coherence of speech). But then if he too had been professor of Greek before entering politics, instead of failing the entrance exam to bus conductors' college and gaining a foothold in the gnome industry (only joking, John), who knows what other abilities might have surfaced?
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Millicent Tendency - 16 Nov 2006 09:37 GMT >>[...] >>> English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >I have for a long time been impressed by John Major's ability to speak >in coherent and apparently grammatical sentences. True (although the leap from Enoch Powell to John Major as examples of eminent Tories probably suggests far too much about the decline of British society than I think I'm ready to contemplate), but I think I know what Mike means by the difference between "written" and "high-register spoken", and I agree with him that Enoch Powell was the ur-speaker of natural written English of our times.
Here he is ad-libbing over the years -- and sounding increasingly "written" as he aged, it seems to me:
[When asked by David Frost in 1969 if he was a "racialist":]
Well, I must define it, because if by being a "racialist" you mean be conscious of differences between men and nations, some of which coincide with differences of race, then we are all racialists, I would have thought; but if by a "racialist" you mean a man who despises a human being because he belongs to another race, or a man who believes that one race is inherently superior to another in civilisation or capability of civilisation, then the answer is emphatically "No".
[Interviewed by Brian Walden in 1978:] Of course I am very proud of being a Tory. Yes, in my head and in my heart I regard myself as a Tory. As I have said, I was born that way; I believe it is congenital; I am unable to change it. That is how I see the world.
[Interviewed in 1992:] To me a Tory is a person who believes that authority is vested in institutions. That's a carefully honed definition. We have made the law, not for extraneous reasons, not because it conforms with *a priori* specifications; it has been made by a particular institution in a particular way and can be changed by that institution in a particular way. A Tory therefore reposes the ultimate authority in institutions: he is an example of collective man. Finally, a quote that's not an example of what we're talking about, because it was written rather than spoken (in *The Daily Telegraph* in 1964), but I just can't resist including because of what would happen 30 years later:
In the end, the Labour party could cease to represent labour. Stranger historic ironies have happened than that.
I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century British politics failing to become leader of his party not because of his views (which in retrospect seem less extreme, off-the-wall and unacceptable than most of Churchill's or Thatcher's) but, I suspect, simply because he happened to have a particularly iyghitating and unattyghactive speech impediment.
 Signature Millicent Tendency (TEFKATHE)
Emungo - 16 Nov 2006 11:01 GMT > >>[...] > >>> English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > Millicent Tendency > (TEFKATHE) Interesting examples, of which I am not sure that the first quite achieves what you are claiming for it. It seems eminently easy to 'hear' it as spoken while reading it. The next two seem, to me, closer to what you are describing.
Is one possible criterion the way in which the passages are divided into sentences or rather periods (reference to 'rolling' or 'measured' periods being a frequent non-technical way of lauding eighteenth-century writing, e.g. Gibbon or Burke)? Modern (Blair-age) politicians seem incredibly unwilling to let each sentence go, dragging it out with qualifications and concessions and connective, causal or conclusive conjunctions until it just .. sort of .. dies out there in the arena, probably by conceptual malnourishment; the result is that the logical structure of their discourse cannot easily be broken down into units that in any way coincide with grammatically free-standing items. Politicians of a less breathless generation managed their ideas better inspeech, but there was still a tendency to link sentences syndetically whenever possible. Powell sems to me to be doing this in your first passage, though nowhere near as compulsively as some - perhaps those who were more terrified of losing their audience's attention.
In the other two passages, however, he is clearly quite in control of what he is saying and thinking. He is content to let each sentence say one thing. Its job is then done. The logical structure of the passage is aligned with the logical role of each sentence. It is this that gives the whole thing coherence; there is little need to tie the component parts together by conjunctions more than is done in writing.
This is all - fairly obviously - just off-the-cuff and inexpert guesswork. By the way, re Powell, I was told at university by my ancient literature tutor that some of his ideas on Greek lit were as eccentric and indefensible as those he held on race and society. (I should add that I do not really agree that his 1968 remarks can be viewed as less extreme now than the contemporary reaction to them suggests, and I have no interest in defending them). But other than brief use of his Lexicon to Herodotus, which - perhaps unsurprisingly - evinced to my youthful eyes no sign of bizarre or outlandish principles, I have not been able to verify or falsify my tutor's claim. Anyone got any info on this?
Millicent Tendency - 16 Nov 2006 13:33 GMT >> >>[...] >> >>> English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> inherently superior to another in civilisation or capability >> of civilisation, then the answer is emphatically "No". [snip]
>Interesting examples, of which I am not sure that the first quite >achieves what you are claiming for it. It seems eminently easy to >'hear' it as spoken while reading it. The next two seem, to me, closer >to what you are describing. The first is an absolutely verbatim transcript -- no ums or ahs or false starts at all (I transcribed it from a YouTube video). The other two are from Wikiquote, so they might have been cleaned up a bit and could explain why they seem more polished.
>Is one possible criterion the way in which the passages are divided >into sentences or rather periods (reference to 'rolling' or 'measured' [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >This is all - fairly obviously - just off-the-cuff and inexpert >guesswork. Sure, but they're still valid points, although surely the Frost quote pretty much had to come out that way, given what he wanted to say: "Let's define the word -- if it means (a), the answer is (x), but if it means (b), then it's (y)."
>By the way, re Powell, I was told at university by my >ancient literature tutor that some of his ideas on Greek lit were as >eccentric and indefensible as those he held on race and society. (I >should add that I do not really agree that his 1968 remarks can be >viewed as less extreme now than the contemporary reaction to them >suggests, and I have no interest in defending them). Me neither, but I've just reread (okay --just read for the first time) the full text of That Speech, because I wanted to see the full context. And that context must necessarily include the time when the speech was delivered -- 1968 -- and it turns out that the infamous "rivers of blood" bit (his actual words were, characteristically, a classical quotation: "like the Roman, I seem to see 'the river Tiber foaming with much blood'") is followed immediately by a reference to the racial tension and violence that was occurring in America at the time: "That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic, but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect." That puts quite a different light on it, I reckon -- or at least shows it to have been a prediction that was substantially more reasoned than the kneejerk "all filthy blacks out now" National Front-sigues-into-BNP drivel that That Speech is often cited as being the paradigmatic example of.
(The whole speech is here: <http://theoccidentalquarterly.com/vol1no1/ep-rivers.html>.)
While looking into all this I came across (in an old Paul Foot piece) an alarming reference to Powell's referring in that speech to "grinning picaninnies". Unfortunately, Foot gave no further details. Reading the speech now, it turns out that Powell did indeed say it, or rather those words did come out of his mouth, but only because he was quoting from a letter that he had received and read out as an example of how high feeling was running among people like his constituents. Yet we find that in popular lore it's Powell himself who's believed to have talked about "wide-eyed grinning picaninnies" (see the Wikipedia article on "Picanninny, for a woeful example).
I think Powell was dismally wrong about many things -- particularly immigration (although the riots in Oldham and Bristol and other places a couple of decades later -- and, again, his speech makes clear that his "vision" refers to the end of the century if the late-'6's trends continued -- could perhaps be argued to have shown him to be not so far off the mark when he "seem[ed] to see" the Tiber foaming with blood" -- or Oldham as a kind of Watts writ small, if you will) -- but if he's to be forever vilified for his views, shouldn't he at least be quoted accurately and in the proper textual and temporal context?
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Matthew Huntbach - 16 Nov 2006 11:15 GMT > I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than > the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > simply because he happened to have a particularly iyghitating and > unattyghactive speech impediment. It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do succeed in politics, success in politics requires a certain sort of low cunning. Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech, which is what pushed him out of a standard political career, is a good example of what a "brilliant mind" gets you. It would have been an act of low cunning had it genuinely been his intention to get a reputation as a racist demagogue, but I think it's pretty well established it wasn't. He spoke his mind, regardless of how what he said would be interpreted, and suffered the consequences. Had it been less eloquently but more cunningly put, he would have got away with it.
Matthew Huntbach
Millicent Tendency - 16 Nov 2006 11:53 GMT >> I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than >> the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >what he said would be interpreted, and suffered the consequences. Had it >been less eloquently but more cunningly put, he would have got away with it. I agree with almost all of that, except I'm fairly sure he never actually said the words "rivers of blood" in That Speech, but rather -- very much in character -- came over all classical by making an analogy to the Tiber. Also, rather than speaking his mind, his stock defence of that speech was that -- unlike virtually every other high-profile MP before or since -- he was simply doing what he was elected and paid to do: representing his constituents, acting as their advocate, making their case and speaking *their* minds. He was funny like that, and despite generally being 180º away from his views on virtually everything, I always very much admired him for it (as did -- without exactly shouting it from the rooftops -- Tony Benn and Michael Foot.
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Peter T. Daniels - 16 Nov 2006 12:14 GMT > I agree with almost all of that, except I'm fairly sure he never > actually said the words "rivers of blood" in That Speech, but rather [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -- without exactly shouting it from the rooftops -- Tony Benn and > Michael Foot. There's always a tension among elected representatives between carrying out the will of the majority of their constituents, and doing what is right when it conflicts with the majority preference.
Matthew Huntbach - 16 Nov 2006 12:38 GMT >>> I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than >>> the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> simply because he happened to have a particularly iyghitating and >>> unattyghactive speech impediment.
>> It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do succeed >> in politics, success in politics requires a certain sort of low cunning. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> what he said would be interpreted, and suffered the consequences. Had it >> been less eloquently but more cunningly put, he would have got away with it.
> I agree with almost all of that, except I'm fairly sure he never > actually said the words "rivers of blood" in That Speech, but rather > -- very much in character -- came over all classical by making an > analogy to the Tiber. The text of the speech is on the web:
http://www.sterlingtimes.org/text_rivers_of_blood.htm
is one place you can find it, and the words are actually
"like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood'".
A quote of a quote can be a dangerous thing, as Pope Benedict recently discovered, but he seems here to be quoting it as his own view, and it can definitely be read as suggesting immigration will lead to bloody violence.
Matthew Huntbach
Peter Duncanson - 16 Nov 2006 19:55 GMT >>>> I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than >>>> the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >can definitely be read as suggesting immigration will lead to bloody >violence. He suggested it as a possibility.
His first two paragraphs are general in nature. They do not mention the issues he addresses later:
The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature. One is that by the very order of things such evils are not demonstrable until they have occurred: at each stage in their onset there is room for doubt and for dispute whether they be real or imaginary. By the same token, they attract little attention in comparison with current troubles, which are both indisputable and pressing: whence the besetting temptation of all politics to concern itself with the immediate present at the expense of the future. **Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: "If only," they love to think, "if only people wouldn't talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen."**
Perhaps this habit goes back to the primitive belief that the word and the thing, the name and the object, are identical. At all events, the discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician.
**My emphasis.
I would find those statements very difficult to disagree with.
Of course many of those who vilified Powell gave very convincing demonstrations of the sentence emphasised above.
I heard one radio interview with him. He explained that his comments were based on information he had received from various people about how things were developing "on the ground". He said that he was simply making a prediction on the basis of that information
I accepted his account of how things were at the time with due allowance for the summary nature of the speech. I found his projections of "immigrant" population growth unconvincing. I would certainly have questioned his proposed solutions.
One thing I did notice was that those who discussed the speech and interviewed him on radio and TV generally fell far below his intellectual level and were completely unable to hold a rational discussion with him.
As someone deeply opposed to racism and other forms of unjustified discrimination, I found it very sad that there was not a proper debate about Powell's views. The country and intercommunal relations might very well have been better for it.
Some twenty five years ago I was having a conversation with friends here in Northern Ireland. Someone raised the issue of possible difficulties in England between the growing immigrant Muslim communities and the host communities. It was generally agreed that there was a danger of Muslim communal isolation leading to friction and conflict. After more discussion someone said, sadly, that it was pointless trying to warn the English "because they are so complacent, and look on us here who know about that sort of thing as alien beings whom it would be dangerous to listen to".
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Tak To - 16 Nov 2006 23:51 GMT >>>>>I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than >>>>>the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > Of course many of those who vilified Powell gave very convincing > demonstrations of the sentence emphasised above. Perhaps. However, being a total stranger to British politics and after just reading the speech in the above url, I find reason to disagree with his politics that is not of the "mistaking prediction with causation" nature. This leads me to wonder if his preamble is just setting up a strawman.
> I heard one radio interview with him. He explained that his comments > were based on information he had received from various people about > how things were developing "on the ground". He said that he was > simply making a prediction on the basis of that information Let's examine the words of one of his imformants: "In this country in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man." Now, is that information or opinion? I am specifically referring to the implied notion that the relationship between black and white will be of a master-slave type.
It is true that someone somewhere epousing such an opinion is itself a piece of information. However, if this is the kind of information that Powell seeks, then the most serious problem the society faces would not be blacks out numbering white, but whites being paranoid about blacks. Unlike Powell, I can't quite see someone imagining blacks enslaving whites as "decent"; but if I do, I would at least think he is extremely disturbed and make the elimination of such disturbed thoughts (through educatoin, for example) a higher priority than tryng to prevent what a disturbed man imagine might happen.
> I accepted his account of how things were at the time with due > allowance for the summary nature of the speech. I found his > projections of "immigrant" population growth unconvincing. > I would certainly have questioned his proposed solutions. To me, the wrong projection is less of a problem than his uncritical acceptance of a hyped bleakness of a future of white minority.
> One thing I did notice was that those who discussed the speech and > interviewed him on radio and TV generally fell far below his > intellectual level and were completely unable to hold a rational > discussion with him. Well, TV and Radio programs are not known for the intellectual contents. In any case, Powell is a polemicist by choice. He chose the civilized vs the barbarians metaphor; and he chose the black enslaving white vision as representative(*). A polemicist deserves to be (mis)understood by his polemics.
(*) There are many more just from this short speech. For example, he said the (white) general public were not consulted on immigration policies, as if GB were not a democracy. If this is not gross simplication of facts to support his politics I don't know what it is.
> As someone deeply opposed to racism and other forms of unjustified > discrimination, I found it very sad that there was not a proper > debate about Powell's views. The country and intercommunal relations > might very well have been better for it. That might be true, but Powell's own choice of words undermines a rational approach to his reasoning.
> Some twenty five years ago I was having a conversation with friends > here in Northern Ireland. Someone raised the issue of possible [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > complacent, and look on us here who know about that sort of thing as > alien beings whom it would be dangerous to listen to". Great foresight, not sure if this applies to Powell.
Tak -- ----------------------------------------------------------------+----- Tak To takto@alum.mit.eduxx --------------------------------------------------------------------^^ [taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
CDB - 17 Nov 2006 01:31 GMT [Enoch Powell]
>> I heard one radio interview with him. He explained that his >> comments were based on information he had received from various [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > specifically referring to the implied notion that the relationship > between black and white will be of a master-slave type. [more on topic; further references to slavery as EP's chosen metaphor]
"To have the whip hand" is to be in control or to have the advantage generally, not to be the master of a slave. I don't entirely rule out a metaphorical connection with slavery, but that is certainly not what the figure of speech refers to in modern English.
Merriam-Webster (in OneLook) says it was drawn from carriage-driving:
Main Entry: whip hand Function: noun 1 : positive control : ADVANTAGE 2 : the hand holding the whip in driving
Webster's 1828 Dictionary, published when slavery was part of everyday life, does not mention master or slave:
WHIP-HAND, n. [whip and hand.] Advantage over; as, he has the whip-hand of her.
In fact, none of the ten or so dictionaries listed on OneLook as defining the phrase mentions slavery; many of them refer to horse-driving.
I think it is important to remember how common the use of beatings was, as a method of teaching or correcting humans or other animals, at the time the metaphor was first used (1670-80, according to Dictionary.com). Even if his informant had slavery in mind, a century after the British had voluntarily abolished the practice, there is no reason to assume that the well-educated Powell, with his great knowledge of history and language, accepted or intended that derivation.
mb - 16 Nov 2006 20:23 GMT ...
> The text of the speech is on the web: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "like the Roman, I seem to see 'the River Tiber foaming with much blood'". If that is the actual quote, then he did not *always speak in written style.
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Nov 2006 12:11 GMT > > I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than > > the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do succeed > in politics, success in politics requires a certain sort of low cunning. Well, Bill Clinton refutes that. And, apparently, Harry Truman. Barak Obama may be another.
Mario Cuomo supports it.
> Powell's "Rivers of Blood" speech, which is what pushed him out of a > standard political career, is a good example of what a "brilliant mind" [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > what he said would be interpreted, and suffered the consequences. Had it > been less eloquently but more cunningly put, he would have got away with it. It may be that those two definitions of "Tory" cited above were set pieces that he trotted out whenever asked, which must have been often.
Note that American politicians have "stump speeches," repeated at every stop during a several-month electoral campaign.
Emungo - 16 Nov 2006 12:22 GMT > Mario Cuomo supports it. If I recall correctly, a black crow does not support the proposition 'There are no white crows'.
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Nov 2006 15:09 GMT > > Mario Cuomo supports it. > > > If I recall correctly, a black crow does not support the proposition > 'There are no white crows'. The generalization was something like, really smart people don't make great elected officials. That was true of Mario Cuomo. If he hadn't dithered over entering the presidential campaign in IIRC 1988, he would likely have been nominated over Dukakis and would have cleaned up the floor with GHWB in debates and other public appearances. (Remember John Lovitz as Dukakis's famous line in an SNL debate parody, "I can't believe I'm losing to this guy!") But he felt it was more important to get an Albany budget settled than to go off campaigning.
Jimmy Carter is another -- a brilliant man, he saw the presidency as an exercise in micro-management, which no one can do.
Matthew Huntbach - 16 Nov 2006 16:18 GMT >>> I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than >>> the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>> simply because he happened to have a particularly iyghitating and >>> unattyghactive speech impediment.
>> It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do succeed >> in politics, success in politics requires a certain sort of low cunning.
> Well, Bill Clinton refutes that. And, apparently, Harry Truman. Barak > Obama may be another. You mean that Bill Clinton lacks low cunning? I though the reason he got where he did was his low cunning.
Matthew Huntbach
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Nov 2006 20:27 GMT > >>> I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than > >>> the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You mean that Bill Clinton lacks low cunning? I though the reason he got where > he did was his low cunning. No, I mean exactly what I said: Bill Clinton, with a brilliant mind, succeeded in politics.
If that means he _also_ has low cunning, so be it.
Vanya6724 - 16 Nov 2006 22:16 GMT > > You mean that Bill Clinton lacks low cunning? I though the reason he got where > > he did was his low cunning. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > If that means he _also_ has low cunning, so be it. He is certainly cunning, but "a brilliant mind"? You are using "brilliant mind" as a synonym for "exceptionally intelligent", which is of course technically correct. But when most people say "smart people make bad politicians" I suspect they actually mean "intellectuals make bad politicians," which I think is more true than is the case with "smart people". As brilliant as Clinton is he doesn't strike me as an introspective intellectual, which Powell probably was, and even Carter strikes me as more "intellectual" as Clinton, although not as smart.
Peter T. Daniels - 17 Nov 2006 00:32 GMT > > > You mean that Bill Clinton lacks low cunning? I though the reason he got where > > > he did was his low cunning. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "brilliant mind" as a synonym for "exceptionally intelligent", which is > of course technically correct. Ah. It occurs to me that whoever first used that phrase (wasn't it MissTendency?) was using "brilliant" in that curious British way to mean 'good'; or with reference to the docudrama about John Nash with that title (which I have neither seen nor read).
Over here, "brilliant" hasn't been pejorated/semantically bleached; it means 'supremely intelligent'.
> But when most people say "smart people > make bad politicians" I suspect they actually mean "intellectuals make > bad politicians," which I think is more true than is the case with > "smart people". "Smart" has recently (ISTM) taken on virtually the sole meaning of 'in command of many facts' -- like you have to be really _smart_ to win at Jeopardy!.But that's not what "smart" means to me; it's a short word for 'intelligent'.
> As brilliant as Clinton is he doesn't strike me as an > introspective intellectual, which Powell probably was, and even Carter > strikes me as more "intellectual" as Clinton, although not as smart. ("More intellectual as"? Please tell me that was a typo!)
I know nothing of this Powell person (and am apparently the better for it). I also find it dismaying that "intellectual" is now pretty much an insult. In the 1950s there was an entire cadre of "public intellectuals" -- those like Edmund Wilson, Bernard DeVoto, etc., who wrote for and often edited the various weekly magazines of opinion and criticism, none of which survive. All we have these days is "pundits," "talking heads," who aren't expected to be able to compose an essay of as many as 1000 words (I think an "Op-Ed piece" is typically about 850 words). [Even when they have the opportunity, they frequently fall down: James Wolcott does 5000 words for Vanity Fair, once a month, and about once in three columns, he has nothing to say but still manages to fill up his space.)
Even the New Yorker, the last bastion, with its last two makeovers abandoned the book-length articles that spread over two or three -- or occasionally as many as six -- weekly issues. But the immense range of the New Yorker even today (formerly broad and deep, now broad and shallow) is a reminiscence of what magazines used to be like.
Clinton, BTW, _does_ happen to be an intellectual, but he doesn't let that side show. Probably mroe so than Hillary, who has the reputation.
Matthew Huntbach - 17 Nov 2006 09:40 GMT >>>>> I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than >>>>> the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>>>> simply because he happened to have a particularly iyghitating and >>>>> unattyghactive speech impediment.
>>>> It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do succeed >>>> in politics, success in politics requires a certain sort of low cunning.
>>> Well, Bill Clinton refutes that. And, apparently, Harry Truman. Barak >>> Obama may be another.
>> You mean that Bill Clinton lacks low cunning? I though the reason he got where >> he did was his low cunning.
> No, I mean exactly what I said: Bill Clinton, with a brilliant mind, > succeeded in politics. > > If that means he _also_ has low cunning, so be it. Yes, my point is that often they are not combined. In fact, getting a reputation for having a "brilliant mind" often goes along with a sort of naivety. It's precisely *because* the person lacks the sense to see how his words might be misinterpreted, or to pay some attention to popular sympathies, or to use the sort of appeal to emotion that work as arguments with ordinary people, that he gets the reputation for having a "brilliant mind".
Matthew Huntbach
Millicent Tendency - 17 Nov 2006 09:41 GMT >> >>> I might also add that few stranger historic ironies have happened than >> >>> the man with perhaps the most brilliant mind in twentieth-century [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >If that means he _also_ has low cunning, so be it. There's brilliant and brilliant. Clinton's obviously very smart, what with his Rhodes scholarship and all, but Powell was more than that -- some might think frighteningly so. He learned to read ancient Greek at the age of five. He was the most gifted student of his generation at Cambridge. By 24 he was a university professor (in its BrE meaning). He abandoned academia to join up when WW2 broke out, and was promoted from private to brigadier (=AmE: grunt to one-star general, I think) during the course of the hostilities -- the youngest brigadier in the history of the British Army (and a promotion rate of moving up two or three ranks per year). Although trained as a Classics specialist, he also dabbled in such languages as Urdu and Old Welsh, as well as publishing four volumes of English poetry. He was learning Hebrew to pass the time when he died, aged 85.
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Peter T. Daniels - 17 Nov 2006 16:28 GMT > He abandoned academia to join up when WW2 broke out, and was promoted > from private to brigadier (=AmE: grunt to one-star general, I think) I have no idea how many stars a brigadier general wears. Why would you suppose we don't use that term for a rank?
Do Brits have no slang term for infantryman?
"Grunt" is in no way equivalent to "private."
There are any number of terms for the ranks below corporal, depending in part on the service (Army, Navy, etc.), in part on the job, etc.
Leslie Danks - 17 Nov 2006 16:58 GMT > Do Brits have no slang term for infantryman? There is the expression "PBI" (poor bloody infantry) but I've never heard it used in the singular.
Reminds me of the Glaswegian mother who proudly declared that she had seven sons, one in the army and six in the HLI.
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Emungo - 17 Nov 2006 17:45 GMT > > He abandoned academia to join up when WW2 broke out, and was promoted > > from private to brigadier (=AmE: grunt to one-star general, I think) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > There are any number of terms for the ranks below corporal, depending > in part on the service (Army, Navy, etc.), in part on the job, etc. We say 'grunt' (at least we do now).
It is true that Enoch Powell was unusual for his educational class at that point in not getting a fairly immediate emergency commission when joining up in WW2. I think he'd not done OTC. But he was soon spotted and sent on an OCTU in early 1940. So (needless to say) he didn't occupy every rank from Pte to Brig. And when he left the army he was of course at best still 2nd Lt (W/S Col, Actg or Temp Brig) J E Powell. Still jolly impressive - better even than Toby Low who was a younger Brigadier (b 1914, as opposed to Powell's 1912) but had TA experience before the war and started with a couple of pips up.
Hope that balances out all that arcana about US politics earlier on.
Emungo - 17 Nov 2006 17:50 GMT > Hope that balances out all that arcana about US politics earlier on. Sorry, meant to say 'all them arcana', obviously.
Mike Lyle - 17 Nov 2006 18:18 GMT > > > He abandoned academia to join up when WW2 broke out, and was promoted > > > from private to brigadier (=AmE: grunt to one-star general, I think) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > We say 'grunt' (at least we do now). I don't, thanks, other than for special effect. There isn't a word only for private soldiers, but a general word for lower ranks is "Toms" (formerly, of course, "Tommies"). Brit matlows/matelots and erks refer to soldiers of all ranks pejoratively as "pongoes" -- I've heard airmen speak of "pongo officers". I think their older expression, "brown jobs", may have died out, but Paras call other soldiers "crap-hats" for a similar reason.
PBI are, or were, sometimes known generically as "gravel-guts". All ranks in Rifle regiments are "black-buttoned-bastards". Guardsmen are "gobbins".
> It is true that Enoch Powell was unusual for his educational class at > that point in not getting a fairly immediate emergency commission when [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Brigadier (b 1914, as opposed to Powell's 1912) but had TA experience > before the war and started with a couple of pips up. I think Ted Heath, finishing as brigadier, also started as a humble gunner (=artillery private).
 Signature Mike.
Emungo - 17 Nov 2006 19:03 GMT > I think their older expression, "brown > jobs", may have died out. I don't know your time frame but it was still going in late 80s. ("Hmm, tall doris, short brownjob" wafted across an RAF officers' mess when a friend of mine walked in with his rather willowy girlfriend; cue lengthy and energetic remonstrations).
mb - 17 Nov 2006 17:59 GMT > > He abandoned academia to join up when WW2 broke out, and was promoted > > from private to brigadier (=AmE: grunt to one-star general, I think) [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > There are any number of terms for the ranks below corporal, depending > in part on the service (Army, Navy, etc.), in part on the job, etc. Which all translate into one and the same for the civilian, ie simple soldier.
Peter T. Daniels - 17 Nov 2006 23:51 GMT > > > He abandoned academia to join up when WW2 broke out, and was promoted > > > from private to brigadier (=AmE: grunt to one-star general, I think) [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Which all translate into one and the same for the civilian, ie simple > soldier. We'd automatically distinguish soldier, sailor, airman, Marine.
Maybe GI covers all of them of lower ranks.
Nick Atty - 18 Nov 2006 09:05 GMT >> He abandoned academia to join up when WW2 broke out, and was promoted >> from private to brigadier (=AmE: grunt to one-star general, I think) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Do Brits have no slang term for infantryman? "Squaddie" feels similar to me, although I'd not swear that the two words are exact synonyms - my knowledge of the military is too vague for that.
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Pat Durkin - 16 Nov 2006 18:33 GMT >> It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do >> succeed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Mario Cuomo supports it. How in the world does brilliance push low cunning out of the arena? Are they even related?
Peter T. Daniels - 16 Nov 2006 20:28 GMT > >> It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do > >> succeed [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > How in the world does brilliance push low cunning out of the arena? Are > they even related? You'll have to take that up with Miss Tendency, a person who has never leaked into sci.lang before.
Skitt - 16 Nov 2006 21:07 GMT >>>> It's not a strange irony at all. Men with brilliant minds rarely do >>>> succeed in politics, success in politics requires a certain sort [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > You'll have to take that up with Miss Tendency, a person who has never > leaked into sci.lang before. Don't be too sure about that. Names seem to change in AUE to protect the innocent, or something like that.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 16 Nov 2006 21:25 GMT > You'll have to take that up with Miss Tendency, a person who has never > leaked into sci.lang before. Not before September 2, 1996, at least. You appear to have first responded to him [sic] on October 24, 2003.
I don't understand the desire to periodically change one's pseudonym (or even, really, to have one), but an unfamiliar name doesn't necessarily indicate an unfamiliar source.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |He who will not reason, is a bigot; 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |he who cannot is a fool; and he who Palo Alto, CA 94304 |dares not is a slave. | Sir William Drummond kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572
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Peter T. Daniels - 17 Nov 2006 00:34 GMT > > You'll have to take that up with Miss Tendency, a person who has never > > leaked into sci.lang before. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > (or even, really, to have one), but an unfamiliar name doesn't > necessarily indicate an unfamiliar source. Under what name did she post three years ago?
(Drag queens and transvestites prefer to be addressed with feminine pronouns, and Millicent is not a male's name.)
Evan Kirshenbaum - 17 Nov 2006 00:52 GMT >> > You'll have to take that up with Miss Tendency, a person who has >> > never leaked into sci.lang before. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (Drag queens and transvestites prefer to be addressed with feminine > pronouns, and Millicent is not a male's name.) Millicent Tendency, recently THE Entity, is Ross Howard. I've seen no evidence that Ross is either a drag queen or a transvestite.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If I am ever forced to make a 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |choice between learning and using Palo Alto, CA 94304 |win32, or leaving the computer |industry, let me just say it was kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |nice knowing all of you. :-) (650)857-7572 | Randal Schwartz
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Peter T. Daniels - 17 Nov 2006 04:10 GMT > >> > You'll have to take that up with Miss Tendency, a person who has > >> > never leaked into sci.lang before. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Millicent Tendency, recently THE Entity, is Ross Howard. I've seen no > evidence that Ross is either a drag queen or a transvestite. Then perhaps a true transsexual, with a female psyche trapped in a male body.
I've seen those other two names.
Millicent Tendency - 17 Nov 2006 09:26 GMT Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
>> > You'll have to take that up with Miss Tendency, a person who has never >> > leaked into sci.lang before. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> (or even, really, to have one), but an unfamiliar name doesn't >> necessarily indicate an unfamiliar source. I've explained my preference not to use my real name before. In a nutshell, it's because I always used to be almost totally invisible on the Web, but last year several unscrupulous websites purporting to be "language forums", began to cull Usenet groups including this one for their content, putting up our posts on their sites without warning and without permission. If I can no longer control where and when and in what company I am to be found if someone runs a Web search on my real name, I prefer the drivel I write here to appear under a pseudonym if it's going to be bandied about willy nilly.
As for the chopping and changing, yes, I imagine it is a bit annoying. I hope to have something more permanent figured out in a week or two. (Or should I just stick with this one and be done with it?)
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LFS - 17 Nov 2006 10:47 GMT > As for the chopping and changing, yes, I imagine it is a bit annoying. > I hope to have something more permanent figured out in a week or two. > (Or should I just stick with this one and be done with it?) I don't find it annoying at all - there is a certain entertainment value in identifying the former name behind the new one - but I imagine that it could be irritating if you haven't cottoned on and think that you're "talking" to a different person.
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Peter T. Daniels - 17 Nov 2006 16:30 GMT > > As for the chopping and changing, yes, I imagine it is a bit annoying. > > I hope to have something more permanent figured out in a week or two. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > it could be irritating if you haven't cottoned on and think that you're > "talking" to a different person. Maybe Miss Tendency could take care to be consistent when leaking into sci.lang.
mb - 17 Nov 2006 17:56 GMT > > > As for the chopping and changing, yes, I imagine it is a bit annoying. > > > I hope to have something more permanent figured out in a week or two. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Maybe Miss Tendency could take care to be consistent when leaking into > sci.lang. What for? If you want any personal info beyond what the messages say, you do your discussion in a bar or by some other, more personalized method.
The advantage of usenet is that only your words count; nothing else. These groups are there to afford total anonimity, concentrating all the attention on your words.
Those who choose to post in their real names, or to post consistently under the same name, are doing so by a personal choice irrelevant to usenet. If MT wishes to wear a new name at every message, that won't change anything to what her persona says. Trying to guess the former identity of the author is, likewise, a personal fixation with some people, again irrlevant to usenet, while others couldn't care less.
Florence Nightingale
Mike Lyle - 17 Nov 2006 18:34 GMT [...]
> Those who choose to post in their real names, or to post consistently > under the same name, are doing so by a personal choice irrelevant to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Florence Nightingale I don't see a problem if we stick to one name per thread. I only come here to relax, so, as a massively successful Lesbian porn star from County Mayo, I have to use a nom de clavier to protect my professional reputation. -- Lassivia de Luscious.
Enoch Powell - 17 Nov 2006 18:52 GMT > I don't see a problem if we stick to one name per thread. I only come > here to relax, so, as a massively successful Lesbian porn star from > County Mayo, I have to use a nom de clavier to protect my professional > reputation. > -- > Lassivia de Luscious. I can only concur.
EP
Colleen Parliamentaire - 17 Nov 2006 22:57 GMT >> I don't see a problem if we stick to one name per thread. I only >> come here to relax, so, as a massively successful Lesbian porn [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I can only concur. Amen from this fiery French-Irish Ottawa beauty.
-- Colleen Parlementaire
Millicent Tendency - 17 Nov 2006 19:12 GMT >[...] >> Those who choose to post in their real names, or to post consistently [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >County Mayo, I have to use a nom de clavier to protect my professional >reputation. Okay, well, I'm down to a shortlist of five names now. I will, of course, take any opinions, comments, suggestions or preferences into serious consideration and then roundly ignore them.
Sigismund Wok
Archie Valparaiso
Thor Shuttleworth
Brad Germolene
Keith Zanzibar
Temporarily yours,
 Signature Millicent Tendency (TEFKATHE)
Mike Lyle - 17 Nov 2006 19:46 GMT > >[...] > >> Those who choose to post in their real names, or to post consistently [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Keith Zanzibar Mills, petal, it's Sigismund Wok every time. In any case, my agent says Brad Germolene's taken already, and AV is like this anagram of something or other, and Zanzibar's apparently racist; since she's called Tad Shuttleworth herself, she was all like really frowny about that one. If in doubt, you could ask for a vote from Peta Daniels: she thinks I'm just too bloody post-feminist lipsticky, but she's like totally butch and forthright, and she's got a coolorama way with words. sh.t! Is that the time? I'm on set in five: got to blow.
-- Lassivia.
Paul Wolff - 17 Nov 2006 22:14 GMT >Okay, well, I'm down to a shortlist of five names now. I will, of >course, take any opinions, comments, suggestions or preferences into [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Keith Zanzibar Have you considered Sobwheat Bucko? It could be entertaining for a week or two.
 Signature Paul In bocca al Lupo!
LFS - 17 Nov 2006 23:03 GMT >>[...] >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Temporarily yours, They have such distinctive personas that you'd probably need to select according to the tenor of your post. Wok would be deeply serious and analytical, an expert in linguistics and philosophy who is puzzled by jokes about sheep and finds pun threads and the SDC deeply irritating, although he does have an interest in sandwiches. Keith, whose real surname is Smith, is equally serious, a Morris dancer in his spare time, writes frequently to the Guardian and posts mostly on topics such as line length, .sig separators and Usenet etiquette. Brad is a pal of Lassivia's, noted for the size of his lower brain and a habit of not quite cottoning on to the double entendre. Thor is an argumentative fifteen-year-old nerd whose real name is Terry. Archie is a debonair, well-read elderly gent who wears a panama and a silk cravat and knows a great deal about horses.
 Signature Laura (emulate St. George for email)
Donna Richoux - 17 Nov 2006 19:47 GMT > > > > As for the chopping and changing, yes, I imagine it is a bit annoying. > > > > I hope to have something more permanent figured out in a week or two. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > identity of the author is, likewise, a personal fixation with some > people, again irrlevant to usenet, while others couldn't care less. No words stand alone. There's always context.
Maybe you're just trying to rile Peter, but I want to say that I disagree completely with your position. People have personalities, experiences, senses of humor, and geographical upbringings that definitely affect the sense that readers make of their words. When I first started reading a.u.e, I found it very important to keep track (loosely, not obsessively) of who said what, developing a sense of who was knowledgeable and reliable, and who were the utter trolls (there were more of them then), and all degrees in between. Just trying to figure out when someone is being obscure or sarcastic was difficult. Not to mention identifying all the subtle pondisms never before known.
If people at that time had compounded the craziness by changing their names every two to six weeks, I don't think I would have been able to last.
Now I'm trying to figure out whether Emungo is Mickwick/Vinny Burgoo back with us. I suppose this is great fun. Ha ha.
 Signature Wearily -- Donna Richoux
mb - 17 Nov 2006 20:56 GMT > > > Maybe Miss Tendency could take care to be consistent when leaking into > > > sci.lang. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > No words stand alone. There's always context. Right. The compulsory context in usenet is that of a single message. All the rest is optional (and can be highly irritating to a portion of the users).
> Maybe you're just trying to rile Peter, but I want to say that I > disagree completely with your position. People have personalities, > experiences, senses of humor, and geographical upbringings that > definitely affect the sense that readers make of their words. Which they may want (or again not) to get rid of, just for a minute. Usenet is designed for privacy. Web pages exhibiting names, pictures and grandkids are not within the purview.
> When I > first started reading a.u.e, I found it very important to keep track [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > figure out when someone is being obscure or sarcastic was difficult. Not > to mention identifying all the subtle pondisms never before known. No doubt. You want to have some reliable tags. Good for you. Others don't need them. Others still would like each of their postings to be read on their own merits.
> If people at that time had compounded the craziness by changing their > names every two to six weeks, I don't think I would have been able to > last. Or perhaps you would have gotten the hang of it.
Peter T. Daniels - 17 Nov 2006 23:53 GMT > > > > As for the chopping and changing, yes, I imagine it is a bit annoying. > > > > I hope to have something more permanent figured out in a week or two. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > identity of the author is, likewise, a personal fixation with some > people, again irrlevant to usenet, while others couldn't care less. Then it was inappropriate of someone to point out that I had in fact encountered Miss Tendency before, under some other name which I had no way of connecting with her present avatar.
Lassivia de Luscios - 18 Nov 2006 17:36 GMT [...]
> > Those who choose to post in their real names, or to post consistently > > under the same name, are doing so by a personal choice irrelevant to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > encountered Miss Tendency before, under some other name which I had no > way of connecting with her present avatar. Ah, I see: you realy are serios, darling! But that's cool. Thought you were being all like pretend-obtiuse and grumpy. Lovely Ross's "home" group is AUE; there, the kind of like transission has been dead transparant every like step of the way, you know, and my agent is all like "it's merely the intermittency of crossposting to sci.lang which has given an impression of obscurity".
xox Lassivia.
mb - 15 Nov 2006 23:36 GMT > [...] > > English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary > > style and speak in the spoken style, using essentially the same grammar > > and vocabulary (even McLean). > > I'd add to mb's sound comments [thanks - remittance follows as agreed]
> that there is a very small number of > people who do habitually speak written English, and though the > differences are slight it sticks out a mile. I only know one > personally, You mean, not counting us aliens, of course.
> A public figure who did it was Enoch Powell Oh dear. Where is the nearest oral expression classroom?
> (I'm distinguishing here between > written English and high-register spoken English, though I'd be pushed > to explain the distinction.) Here's a reference to a guy who tried:
http://www.mantex.co.uk/reviews/ong.htm
Wood Avens - 16 Nov 2006 09:28 GMT >[...] >> English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >people who do habitually speak written English, and though the >differences are slight it sticks out a mile. A noted example was AUE's late and celebrated Graeme Thomas.
 Signature Katy Jennison
spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @
Mike Lyle - 16 Nov 2006 18:42 GMT > >[...] > >> English is not in that category: Its speakers can write in the literary [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > A noted example was AUE's late and celebrated Graeme Thomas. Gosh, yes! But I think he _chose_ to, for effect; the friend I mentioned seems to can no other.
 Signature Mike.
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