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toss up which one is correct

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Larry - 14 Nov 2006 14:33 GMT
Hi folks,

       I am in two minds about which one of the following sounds better:

"I assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone *would have
laughed* in my face *if I had ever used* it in a conversation."

"I assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone *would laugh* in
my face if *I ever used* it in a conversation."

my guess is the latter is more correct...

what about you?

thanks ever so much
UC - 14 Nov 2006 15:09 GMT
> Hi folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> thanks ever so much

"I assumed it was simply literal translation; people would laugh in my
face if I were ever to use it in a conversation."
Derek Turner - 14 Nov 2006 15:16 GMT
> Hi folks,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> thanks ever so much
The former - because of the subjunctive nature of the final clause.
Better still, 'if ever I had used'
dontbother - 14 Nov 2006 16:21 GMT
> I am in

"of two minds"

> two minds about which one of the following
> sounds better:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> what about you?

"I assumed that it was merely a literal translation and that anyone
*would laugh* in my face were *I ever to use* it in a conversation."

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."

Mark Brader - 14 Nov 2006 19:05 GMT
"Larry" asks about:
> "I assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone *would have
> laughed* in my face *if I had ever used* it in a conversation."
>
> "I assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone *would laugh*
> in my face if *I ever used* it in a conversation."

This is like those indirect statements about facts that can use the
present or the past tense:

* "Dmitri told me the Aral Sea was the world's fourth-largest lake"
It was true then, and that's what's relevant; I'm saying nothing about
the facts now.

* "Dmitri told me the Aral Sea is the world's fourth-largest lake"
Either he told me so recently it cannot have changed, or this is the
sort of fact that doesn't change; anyway, I'm assuming it hasn't.
(In this case wrongly.  Look up "Aral Sea".)

Similarly, both versions of Larry's statement are grammatical.  The
first one talks about what the speaker thought then about how people
would react then; the second one assumes that people's reactions to
the usage are the sort of thing that wouldn't change, or that there
hasn't been time for them to change.  I prefer the first version, but
it's basically a matter of style and emphasis.
Signature

Mark Brader               "Nicely self-consistent.  (Pay no attention to
Toronto                    that D-floating number behind the curtain!)"
msb@vex.net                                -- Chris Torek, on pasta

My text in this article is in the public domain.

Eric Walker - 14 Nov 2006 23:38 GMT
>         I am in two minds about which one of the following sounds better:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> "I assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone *would laugh* in
> my face if *I ever used* it in a conversation."

The using and the laughing are not facts but suppositions, and thus
call for the subjunctive mood.  The two sentences correctly reflect
that, but present two different temporal understandings of the
statement.

In the first, the speaker is referring to a now-ended period (we know
it's ended from the forms "would have laughed"and "had used"), the
period during which he might have used the phrase; thus, to be in
correct form, it would have to open in the past perfect tense, as "I
had assumed . . . ."  Presumably he no longer assumes those things.

In the second, the period during which the speaker might use the phrase
is open-ended, extending right to the present, making the statement a
sort of general truth.  "If I [ever] used it" is a past-form
subjunctive that--as is often the case with past-tense forms in the
subjunctive mood--actually points to the temporal present or future:
compare "Things would grow better if it ever rained around here,"
another general (non-temporal) truth.

(I think the sentences would sound more idiomatic were "anyone"
replaced with "everyone".)
Mark Brader - 15 Nov 2006 01:36 GMT
Eric Walker:
> (I think the sentences would sound more idiomatic were "anyone"
> replaced with "everyone".)

I think you just disqualified yourself as a thinker on the subject
of which sentences sound idiomatic.
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto  |  "Don't let it drive you crazy...
msb@vex.net           |   Leave the driving to us!"   --Wayne & Shuster

Eric Walker - 15 Nov 2006 03:23 GMT
> Eric Walker:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I think you just disqualified yourself as a thinker on the subject
> of which sentences sound idiomatic.

Perhaps.  But I wouldn't mind if some others chimed in here:

Anyone would have laughed in my face if I had done that.
Everyone would have laughed in my face if I had done that.

Anyone would laugh in my face if I did that.
Everyone would laugh in my face if I did that.

The "everyone" form still looks and sounds better to me.  Other
thoughts?
Tony Cooper - 15 Nov 2006 03:44 GMT
>> Eric Walker:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>The "everyone" form still looks and sounds better to me.  Other
>thoughts?

It's nit-picking, but the "everyone" version seems to read that every
person would, and the "anyone" version seems to read that any person
could.  Not that I'd notice the difference in a page of writing or in
a conversation.

I admit, though, to not being a thinker when taking in words and
sentences as part of a whole and scrutinizing the individual uses.  If
I understand the point, I don't obsess about how someone got to the
point.

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

dontbother - 15 Nov 2006 03:46 GMT
> Mark Brader wrote:
>> Eric Walker:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> The "everyone" form still looks and sounds better to me.  Other
> thoughts?

I had a problem with that word, too. I thought of changing it to
"everyone", but decided against it because it really didn't sound
much better to me. I don't think either is particularly idiomatic,
and Brader has a history of defending what I consider strange
locutions as "idiomatic" in his idiolect -- as we all must, to
some degree or other -- so his unwarrantedly arrogant and
personally biased (against you, as I read it) judgment here can be
as easily dismissed as we can dismiss anyone else's.

"Anyone" seemed to fit the bill as the headword of an ellipsis of
"anyone who heard me use it". "Everyone" seemed far too inclusive
to be reasonable, but now I think it also fits as an ellipsis of
"everyone who heard me use it". Now I think that perhaps "people"
would be semantically and usageistically better here. But Brader
would object that I have no idea of what's idiomatic in his
idiolect either, and I would have to agree with him.

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."

UC - 15 Nov 2006 04:10 GMT
> > Mark Brader wrote:
> >> Eric Walker:
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
> Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
> "Impatience is the mother of misery."

Look at what I wrote: " 'people' would laugh in my face". Covers this
problem.
dontbother - 15 Nov 2006 04:14 GMT
>> > Mark Brader wrote:
>> >> Eric Walker:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> Look at what I wrote: " 'people' would laugh in my face". Covers
> this problem.

I agree.

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."

Tony Cooper - 15 Nov 2006 06:07 GMT
>> > Mark Brader wrote:
>> >> Eric Walker:
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>Look at what I wrote: " 'people' would laugh in my face". Covers this
>problem.

You've never really caught on to what we do here, have you?

Solving the problem ends the discussion.  What's the fun of that?

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

dontbother - 15 Nov 2006 06:27 GMT
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> wrote
[...]
> You've never really caught on to what we do here, have you?
>
> Solving the problem ends the discussion.  What's the fun of
> that?

Some of us are actually interested in solving usage problems. Others
are interested only in having something to do with their otherwise
dead time. There's room for both, but you don't speak for all of us
when you say "we". That so many of the discussions in AUE seemed to
go on forever and ever without any point kept me away from this group
for a couple of years before I became an RR&C (regular reader and
contributor). I still find endless blab nothing more than endless
blab. Different strokes and all that. Anything to forestall
Alzheimer's.

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."

Eric Walker - 15 Nov 2006 09:31 GMT
[...]

> Solving the problem ends the discussion.  What's the fun of that?

Much depends on which problem is being solved.  The original question
was not "What is the very best way to put this thought?"--it was "Which
one of the following sounds better?"

That eventually led to the derivative problem of "anyone" vs.
"everyone", which also was framed in terms of particular alternatives,
not variant optimal forms.

Whether resolving either issue, but especially the derivative, is
"something to do with otherwise dead time" probably varies with the
individual; but I think that so long as the posts remain discussions
and comments, one can continue to learn things, possibly of general
value, from them.
Alan Jones - 15 Nov 2006 08:58 GMT
>> Eric Walker:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> The "everyone" form still looks and sounds better to me.  Other
> thoughts?

Neither seems very likely to me in BrE: I'd say "People would have laughed
in my face..."

Alan Jones
CDB - 15 Nov 2006 13:29 GMT
>>         I am in two minds about which one of the following sounds
>> better:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> "I assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone *would
>> laugh* in my face if *I ever used* it in a conversation."

[agreed, except for this part:]

> In the second, the period during which the speaker might use the
> phrase is open-ended, extending right to the present,

["into the future", no? (as  you  said below)]

> making the
> statement a sort of general truth.  "If I [ever] used it" is a
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> (I think the sentences would sound more idiomatic were "anyone"
> replaced with "everyone".)

True, but to take it easy on Larry: the first version explains why you
didn't say something; the second version explains why you won't say
something.  Wouldn't the patterns be much the same in Italian?
Eric Walker - 15 Nov 2006 22:41 GMT
[...]

> [agreed, except for this part:]
>
> > In the second, the period during which the speaker might use the
> > phrase is open-ended, extending right to the present,

> ["into the future", no? (as  you  said below)]

Well, yes, though in retrospect I probably shouldn't have put it quite
that way, inasmuch as the statement in that form is really a "timeless"
assertion (as in "the world is round"), though that can indeed be
described as a "period extending into the future".

Repeating, for convenience:

. I had assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone would have
laughed in my face if I had ever used it in a conversation.

. I assumed it was a mere literal translation and anyone would laugh in
my face if I ever used it in a conversation.

> [T]he first version explains why you *didn't* say something; the second
> version explains why you *won't* say something. [emphases added]

That is a pleasingly pithy way of summing it.
 
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