Face the Music -- 1844
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Richard Maurer - 14 Nov 2006 15:27 GMT An 1844 use of "face the music":
1844» Bangor Daily Whig And Courier (Newspaper) - July 22, 1844, Bangor ... Subscription - Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - NewspaperArchive - Jul 22, 1844 Gentlemen, you must face the music, and pass flaming resolutions next time in favor of annexation. It will be an awkaward bnsi- ness, but then it must be ...
Some other 1848 uses: Zanesville: but some how they don't face the music They have no enthusiasm, and they seem t< sneak round, as if they were not doubtful how they were coining out
Sandusky, Ohio: Weller, i FACE THE MUSIC. insane flourishes on-uw If to be in readinew to answer at bar of his country and the onfl But when he is called' nfllntier county ...
Janesville: The canvass, wo may bo sure, is now bcgin- carncst, since tho Union" thows signs of tiepidation, and is unwilling to face he music.
Some other 1849 uses: Norwalk, Ohio: Taylor out to make him face tlit music on Ihe question of slavery.
Gettysburg: eIPect to -face the music." Let t! ti nor: bui Russia demands that the Pol-! tlle subject before the Legislature in ish refugees be expelled from Turkey,
Since 1844 is before the Mexican War, "rough music" is my leading candidate for the origin.
The 1844 issue is at www.abrahamlincolnarchive.com/Newspapers/na0002/4491/41885.html but I could only get it from Google cache.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donna Richoux - 14 Nov 2006 15:51 GMT > An 1844 use of "face the music": > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > flaming resolutions next time in favor of annexation. > It will be an awkaward bnsi- ness, but then it must be ... Another New England politician.
> Some other 1848 uses: [snip]
> Since 1844 is before the Mexican War, "rough music" > is my leading candidate for the origin. It's good that you found an example from 1844 -- that's earlier than any of the others in my files.
But what's this 'rough music' of which you speak? I don't see that mentioned in any of the half-a-dozen speculative theories of the origin of "face the music."
Bartleby has this -- is it the one? Was it used in the US?
E. Cobham Brewer 1810-1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898. Rough Music, called in Somersetshire skimmity-riding, and by the Basques toberac. A ceremony which takes place after sunset, when the performers, to show their indignation against some man or woman who has outraged propriety, assemble before the house, and make an appalling din with bells, horns, tin pans, and other noisy instruments.
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Richard Maurer - 14 Nov 2006 16:09 GMT But what's this 'rough music' of which you speak? I don't see that mentioned in any of the half-a-dozen speculative theories of the origin of "face the music."
Bartleby has this -- is it the one? Was it used in the US?
E. Cobham Brewer 1810-1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898. Rough Music, called in Somersetshire skimmity-riding, and by the Basques toberac. A ceremony which takes place after sunset, when the performers, to show their indignation against some man or woman who has outraged propriety, assemble before the house, and make an appalling din with bells, horns, tin pans, and other noisy instruments.
Somebody (not me) mentioned it in aue. There are some articles and books referenced on the web about periods and places in England where the practice went way overboard, some of them around 1840. I am sure that sensationalized versions of the stories made their way to America via newspapers or word of mouth. "Rough Music" gets 9 hits in Making of America.
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donna Richoux - 14 Nov 2006 22:41 GMT > But what's this 'rough music' of which > you speak? [snip definition from Brewer's Phr & Fab]
> Somebody (not me) mentioned it in aue. I found the post -- it was Alan Jones. He was a bit ambiguous:
From: Alan Jones Date: Sat, Nov 13 2004 10:03 am
...But could it be related to the old custom of "rough music", a cacophony of ladles, buckets, fire-irons and the like banged and clattered outside the house of someone strongly disapproved of by the townspeople? If the subject of this abuse decided to open the door and stare the protesters down, instead of cowering behind the shuttered windows, he would be "facing the music".
Notice that Alan did not say "This was called 'facing the music'." I read it as him speculating, as "This might have been called 'facing the music'." If he is with on this thread, perhaps he will confirm or explain.
> There are some articles and books referenced on the web > about periods and places in England where the practice > went way overboard, some of them around 1840. I am sure > that sensationalized versions of the stories made their > way to America via newspapers or word of mouth. I'm sorry, that reasoning is just too tenuous for me. If "facing the music" wasn't actually said in England about that custom, I just can't find it likely that it was said in the US about that custom.
> "Rough Music" gets 9 hits in Making of America. We both know how tedious it can be to look up Making of America hits. I'll look at two...
Sir Walter Scott, Waverly, dated 1855 (reprint?) [describing a festival on the Isle of Man, in which two "queens"] set forth from their respective quarters, the one preceded by violins and flutes, the other with the rough music of the tongs and cleavers. - Dr. William Smith's dictionary of the Bible -- but the quicker sense of Moses discerned the rough music with which the people worshipped the visible representation of God ... the rude character of the Hebrew music at this time (Ex. 32), as untrained and wild as the notes of their Syrian forefathers.
So both of these are literal references to music that is rough.
I just don't think this is going to go anywhere. "Facing the music" remains a mystery.
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Roland Hutchinson - 15 Nov 2006 06:59 GMT > We both know how tedious it can be to look up Making of America hits. > I'll look at two... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > So both of these are literal references to music that is rough. The first one does not seem so to me. It's the mock-serenade/charivary type of rough music, i.e., noisemaking, isn't it? Cleavers, not claviers, that is to say!
 Signature Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
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Donna Richoux - 15 Nov 2006 13:43 GMT > > We both know how tedious it can be to look up Making of America hits. > > I'll look at two... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > of rough music, i.e., noisemaking, isn't it? Cleavers, not claviers, that > is to say! But it had nothing to with wedding customs. "Rough music" had been defined (previously in this thread) as exclusively pertaining to that. Does it mean just any old banging on pots? What little kids do for fun? In which case we are getting even farther from "face the music."
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Mike Lyle - 15 Nov 2006 17:10 GMT > > > We both know how tedious it can be to look up Making of America hits. > > > I'll look at two... [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > But it had nothing to with wedding customs. "Rough music" had been > defined (previously in this thread) as exclusively pertaining to that. But these "Queen" customs _are_ connected with fertility and weddings and such. I'd like to know more about the custom Scott describes (even if it does mean I shall have to read _Waverley_): the scrap above looks very like some ritualisation of good and bad "brides" or sacrifices, or dark and light sides. It isn't mentioned in _The New Golden Bough_. In the first quotation, the distinction between the tool-clashing and real music is explicit; while in the second "rough" is a qualitiative description of real music.
> Does it mean just any old banging on pots? What little kids do for fun? > In which case we are getting even farther from "face the music." I think we can allow writers a difference between "_the_ rough music" as a formal community sanction and "rough music" as a term for the same noise made for different reasons. The practice is quite widespread: I think of prisoners banging their pans on the bars in protest or in salute to a condemned man, or housewives in anti-government streets in Ireland banging pots and pans and dustbin lids as an army patrol went through.
As it happens, I don't think "face the music" will ever be conclusively explained; and in any case it needn't have a single origin.
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Donna Richoux - 15 Nov 2006 17:53 GMT > But these "Queen" customs _are_ connected with fertility and weddings > and such. I'd like to know more about the custom Scott describes (even > if it does mean I shall have to read _Waverley_): the scrap above looks > very like some ritualisation of good and bad "brides" or sacrifices, or > dark and light sides. It isn't mentioned in _The New Golden Bough_. The page is here -- in the footnote:
http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;idn o=aje1890.0007.001;g=moagrp;q1=rough%20music;size=l;frm=frameset;seq=404
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Mike Lyle - 15 Nov 2006 18:59 GMT > > But these "Queen" customs _are_ connected with fertility and weddings > > and such. I'd like to know more about the custom Scott describes (even [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moa;cc=moa;xc=1;idn > o=aje1890.0007.001;g=moagrp;q1=rough%20music;size=l;frm=frameset;seq=404 Thanks for that: fascinating. Also showing at: http://preview.tinyurl.com/y9lmzy
An interesting variant on the Queen of the May rituals: queens of spring and of winter with their respective teams battling it out. Did you get the bit about sacrificing a wren at Christmas? That I did know about.
 Signature Mike.
John Dean - 15 Nov 2006 19:33 GMT >>>> We both know how tedious it can be to look up Making of America >>>> hits. I'll look at two... [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > conclusively explained; and in any case it needn't have a single > origin. There's a whole range of meanings for "music" which is not necessarily connected to melody. Most recently, I recollect finding a reference in George V Higgins to "music" as a slang or dialect term for a wife's nagging - some phrase like "If knew I was gonna hafta to listen to all this music I'd never have told ya". And OED has a collection over the ages:
b. transf. Applied, e.g., to the song of birds, the murmur of running water, the euphony of spoken words, etc., spec. the cry of hounds on seeing the chase. Also in ironical collocations. 1590 Spenser F.Q. ii. vi. 25 She, more sweete then any bird on bough, Would+strive to passe+Their native musicke by her skilful art. 1593 G. Fletcher Licia Sonn. xiv, My love lay sleeping, where birdes musicke made. 1617 Moryson Itin. iii. 28 Clashing of swords was then daily musicke in every street. 1653 Walton Angler i. 12 What music doth a pack of dogs then make. 1687 A. Lovell tr. Thevenot's Trav. i. 225 With that another Volley of great and small Shot: When this Musick had lasted about an Hour, they [etc.]. 1751 Johnson Rambler No. 88 37 Milton, whose ear had been accustomed+to the music of the ancient tongues. 1808 Skurray Bidcombe Hill 9 The cheerful music of the opening hounds. 1836 W. Irving Astoria III. 25 Musquitoes, which, with their stings and their music, set all sleep at defiance. 1858 R. S. Surtees Ask Mamma xxxviii, The music of the hounds.
I believe we've touched on this one before. But all it would take is a context where "music" meant something you *could* face (eg the 1687 'volley of shot') and an appropriate turn of phrase. eg (made-up - I'm not claiming I know any examples) "The guns of the Spanish fleet made their musick and the bold tars faced it without flinching." or "The dogs made their violent musick until the stag turned to face it." And *if* (big 'if') something like that had been written, then, in some recondite circle, the shorthand "facing the music" could well have arisen. Which seems, I think, to lend wright to your persuasive "I don't think it will ever be conclusively explained" theory, not to mention the "needn't have a single origin" corollary.
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Mike Lyle - 15 Nov 2006 21:44 GMT [...]
> > As it happens, I don't think "face the music" will ever be > > conclusively explained; and in any case it needn't have a single [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > will ever be conclusively explained" theory, not to mention the "needn't > have a single origin" corollary. Solid. But, OT, it's music indeed from a distant pack of hounds: less agreeable close up. I don't much hold with fox-hunting, but I'd be atavistically sorry to hear the last of that sound. (A fine example of beef-witted self-absorption from a huntsman: hounds had run through next-door's flock, and I remonstrated on his behalf. Said the jolly huntsman, "They're used to sheep.")
 Signature Mike.
CDB - 15 Nov 2006 23:46 GMT >>>> We both know how tedious it can be to look up Making of America >>>> hits. I'll look at two... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>>> preceded by violins and flutes, the other with the >>>> rough music of the tongs and cleavers. -
>>>> [early hymns]
>>>> So both of these are literal references to music that is rough. >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > anti-government streets in Ireland banging pots and pans and > dustbin lids as an army patrol went through. And charivari was used as an instrument of social coercion, according to Wiki:
"In charivari, people of the local community gather around to "celebrate" a marriage, usually one they regard as questionable, gathering outside the window of the couple. They bang metal implements or use other items to create noise in order to keep the couple awake all night. Sometimes they wear disguises or masks[.]
The custom dates from the Middle Ages and originates from France where it was a regular custom after weddings. Later it became a form of protest against socially disapproved marriages like widows who remarried before finishing a socially acceptable period of mourning."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charivari
> As it happens, I don't think "face the music" will ever be > conclusively explained; and in any case it needn't have a single > origin. As George Hamilton (IV?) once put it, "Children of the night -- shut up!"
izzy - 15 Nov 2006 03:46 GMT Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 06:34:52 +0200 From: Israel Cohen To: ABOUT-WORDS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: izzy faces the music
... By the way, I was wrong about the origin of "face the music".
In alt.english.usage, Richard Maurer wrote: [This phrase] is found in the 1841 play _London Assurance_, by Dion Boucicault and maybe others: There was no time to decide on anything, for Max was already approaching with Sir Harcourt, and it was necessary to face the music. http://www.umsl.edu/~virtualstl/phase2/1850/events/resources/documents/LondonAss urance.html
So, this idiom, first attested in American English in 1850, was not brought to the States by a wave of German-Jewish immigrants in the 1840s. It was brought by Irish immigrants fleeing the potato famine at the same time. Because the most likely origin of MSK = consequences is Semitic, this usage may have entered Irish via Moorish sailors who escaped from ships of the Spanish Armada that broke up on Irish shores [in 1588] as the consequence of storms in the Irish sea.
izzy
> An 1844 use of "face the music": > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Donna Richoux - 15 Nov 2006 13:43 GMT > Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 06:34:52 +0200 > From: Israel Cohen [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > was already approaching with Sir Harcourt, > and it was necessary to face the music. However, you apparently missed that Ben Zimmer immediately corrected this, saying:
>> That text isn't actually from the 1841 play, but rather from a >> playbill accompanying a performance of the play in St. Louis. Based >> on other materials on the site, it appears that the performance was >> in 1852: >>http://www.umsl.edu/~virtualstl/phase2/1850/events/perspectives/docume nts/pbillfocus06.html
>> (I double-checked the text of the play on Chadwyck's "Literature >> Online" database, and there's no "face the music".)
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
izzy - 15 Nov 2006 20:07 GMT > ... you apparently missed that Ben Zimmer immediately corrected > this, saying: > >> That text isn't actually from the 1841 play, but rather from a > >> playbill accompanying a performance of the play in St. Louis. > >> Based on other materials on the site, it appears that the > >> performance was in 1852: http://www.umsl.edu/~virtualstl/phase2/1850/events/perspectives/documents/pbillf ocus06.html
> >> (I double-checked the text of the play on Chadwyck's "Literature > >> Online" database, and there's no "face the music".) So, if there was no usage in the play itself in Ireland, allow me to retract my retraction. This leaves the most likely source of music = consequence as Yiddish-speaking German-Jewish immigrants to the USA (especially the Cleveland and Cincinnati, Ohio areas) in the 1840s. Yiddish MaSQoNeH = inference, deduction (hence consequence) is from Hebrew mem-samekh-kuf-nun-heh MaSQaNaH with the same meanings.
Please note that maSQaNah and SeQueNce are cognate.
But at this World Wide Words web page http://lloyd.emich.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind9912a&L=worldwidewords&D=1&P=96 Michael Quinion wrote:
Q. Do you know the origin of 'face the music'? [Paula Nigro Brown, USA] A. So far as we can discover, the expression was originally an American one. The first recorded use is in the _Congressional Globe_ for 4 March 1850: "There should be no skulking or dodging ... every man should 'face the music'". It seems then to have had the meaning of facing hardship or danger. Only in the 1860s did it take on the sense it now usually has, of taking the consequences of one's actions, or suffering due punishment for some transgression. <<
It is interesting that Hebrew has an MSK homonym mem-samekh-kaf-nun M'SooKaN which means "dangerous". In other words, both the "dangerous" and "consequence" meanings are found in the MSK/MSQ sound in Hebrew.
ciao, Israel "izzy" Cohen
Evan Kirshenbaum - 15 Nov 2006 22:35 GMT > Since 1844 is before the Mexican War, "rough music" > is my leading candidate for the origin. I see one from 1852 that implies that that wasn't how it was thought of at the time:
Now that the canvass is over, and the worst is on us, let us not fear to answer these questions frankly. Let us face the music of the band that has drummed us to the place of execution; and whether as ghostly apparitions, or as survivors of the political guillotine, let us ascertain the extent of out punishment, and take counsel how we shall soonest escape its deadly atmosphere.
_The American Whig Review_, 1852
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John Holmes - 18 Nov 2006 00:26 GMT >> Since 1844 is before the Mexican War, "rough music" >> is my leading candidate for the origin. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > _The American Whig Review_, 1852 Here's some other music that people were none too keen to face in earlier days: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQvx0irpgnE The Mehter bands of the Ottoman Turk armies were supposed to terrify their opponents.
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Leslie Danks - 18 Nov 2006 13:45 GMT [...]
> Here's some other music that people were none too keen to face in > earlier days: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQvx0irpgnE > The Mehter bands of the Ottoman Turk armies were supposed to terrify > their opponents. Not to mention donkey jaws and bagpipes:
http://tinyurl.com/ylyqad <quote> Why “Donkey Jaw?” The first and probably most striking appearance of a donkey jaw in history was when Sampson slew a thousand Philistines using a donkey jaw as his weapon. It has remained as a symbol of power since that day. The actual jaws from donkey skeletons have been used as musical instruments in South America, especially Peru, since antiquity. Its first use, like bagpipes, most likely was to strike terror into the hearts of enemies in battle. When struck, the teeth, which are still encased in the jaw bone, produce a distinct rattling sound, which is so popular in music that an instrument, the quijada, has been designed to mimic the sound. <unquote>
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 18 Nov 2006 15:48 GMT [quoting]
> The actual jaws from donkey skeletons have been used as musical > instruments in South America, especially Peru, since antiquity. For values of "antiquity" that don't extend back all that far. Donkeys first hit this hemisphere in 1495, and probably didn't hit Peru until a fair bit after that.
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Donna Richoux - 15 Nov 2006 23:10 GMT > An 1844 use of "face the music": > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > flaming resolutions next time in favor of annexation. > It will be an awkaward bnsi- ness, but then it must be ... [snip]
> The 1844 issue is at > www.abrahamlincolnarchive.com/Newspapers/na0002/4491/41885.html > but I could only get it from Google cache. Richard, can you tell me exactly where you did find this? I haven't succeeded in duplicating it, but I'm probably not looking in the right place.
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Richard Maurer - 15 Nov 2006 23:31 GMT Richard Maurer wrote: An 1844 use of "face the music":
1844» Bangor Daily Whig And Courier (Newspaper) - July 22, 1844, Bangor ... Subscription - Bangor Daily Whig And Courier - NewspaperArchive - Jul 22, 1844 Gentlemen, you must face the music, and pass flaming resolutions next time in favor of annexation. It will be an awkaward bnsi- ness, but then it must be ...
[snip]
The 1844 issue is at www.abrahamlincolnarchive.com/Newspapers/na0002/4491/41885.html but I could only get it from Google cache.
Richard, can you tell me exactly where you did find this? I haven't succeeded in duplicating it, but I'm probably not looking in the right place.
One way is to do a normal Google web search for <"flaming resolutions next time in favor"> I used the cached result (Confirmed as of 3 minutes ago.)
-- --------------------------------------------- Richard Maurer To reply, remove half Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Donna Richoux - 15 Nov 2006 23:59 GMT > Richard Maurer wrote: > An 1844 use of "face the music": [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > <"flaming resolutions next time in favor"> > I used the cached result (Confirmed as of 3 minutes ago.) Sad to say, that doesn't work for me. I had tried the same technique with a different phrase before I asked you. All I got (and what I get now) was a copy of your own post in some sort of Japanese edition of this group: groups.google.co.jp/group/ alt.usage.english?lnk=rgr&hl=ja
Nothing else.
Can you possibly give me some sort of URL, please? I found some collections of Bangor Daily Whig on line, but this passage didn't turn up there, either.
 Signature Sadly -- Donna Richoux
Skitt - 16 Nov 2006 00:16 GMT >> Richard Maurer wrote: >> An 1844 use of "face the music": [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > collections of Bangor Daily Whig on line, but this passage didn't turn > up there, either. Try http://tinyurl.com/yca845
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Donna Richoux - 16 Nov 2006 13:25 GMT > >> Richard Maurer wrote: > >> An 1844 use of "face the music": [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> > >> [snip] [snip]
> > Can you possibly give me some sort of URL, please? I found some > > collections of Bangor Daily Whig on line, but this passage didn't turn > > up there, either. > > Try http://tinyurl.com/yca845 Thank you, Skitt. That one opens up as one solid block of text, but at least it opens.
What a wild mixup of scanned-OCR text. I can get the gist of these:
voted (or L'olk [must be, "voted for Polk"] I or by theslightesttndications in any quarter giv- ing such a suppoMlion Ibe appearance of and :B
Can anyone make sense of the middle of this one?
Democratic Principles i we are told never change. Butlestthe fuiget.HrhaMheyare, to see ihem aet forth in State and county Conventions.
Anyway, the phrase in question does appear to be valid. The date at the top of the page is very clear. I wish we knew who said it, whether he was a military man, for example, The gibberish before the passage appears to name the speakers and the Maine towns.
Sewall Cram, Esc ot Wilton and E. L Gctcln 11, Esq., ot Water- I was any opposition or objection to the resolution i m the Convention. Indeed, it is in perfect unijnn with the tone of the Ape and every other Loco Foco press in Maine at that time. The Convention will soon meetauain we sup- pose at the fame piece, and we shall then see whether Democratic pimciples' have and whether a similar resolution will pass there11 again. Gentlemen, you must face the music, and pass flaming resolutions next time in favor of annexation. It will be an awkaward bnsi- ness, but then it must be done. Your southern j masters require it; the Texas speculators require I it; the whole Po kat party require it; but we> cannot say that Democratic' consistency dots 'require it.
I feel like I'm reading Middle English with all those erratic spellings.
The "Loco-Foco" party turns out to be real, not a mistake -- it was a name (or nickname) of an early version of the Democratic Party.
Yes, Googling "Sewall Cram" shows he was a town official of Wilton, Maine 1842-46.
This is the future's version of the past, you know - scan 'em poorly and throw away the originals. Who has time to do it right?
 Signature Best -- Donna Richoux
Garrett Wollman - 16 Nov 2006 17:36 GMT >The "Loco-Foco" party turns out to be real, not a mistake -- it was a >name (or nickname) of an early version of the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party has always been the Democratic Party. A "loco-foco" was an early kind of self-igniting match. The "loco-focos" were a branch of the Democratic Party, specifically in New York; see <http://www.econlib.org/library/YPDBooks/Lalor/llCy665.html> for the details.
The "loco-foco" match was invented at around the same time as the railroad industry was getting started; it's thought that the nickname arose from false analogy with "locomotive". It was later replaced by safer, more reliable match designs. (There's an entertaining Asimov essay from about twenty-five years ago which goes into this in some detail: "The Light-Bringer", which was collected in either /The Subatomic Monster/ or /The Relativity of Wrong/ -- I forget which.)
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
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