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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006People continued to come to her in spite of the "made dishes"
Hello: "Flat champagne" - no fizz, I guess:-) But "made dishes" - would that be "non-appetizing," "plain"? ----- Her relatives considered that the penury of her table discredited the Mingott name, which had always been associated with good living; but people continued to come to her in spite of the "made dishes" and flat champagne ... Wharton, Edith, The Age of Innocence, p. 15 http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/541/7.html ----- Thank you. Marius Hancu > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/541/7.html > ----- My guess is ready-made, pre-cooked, store-bought. I don't know what the exact opportunities would have been in that era. However, I see that MW11 has an even simpler meaning: c : put together of various ingredients <a made dish> Is this snobbery that says a casserole combining mixed ingredients is inferior to plain meat, vegetables, etc? Odd.  SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux > > Her relatives considered that the penury of her table discredited the > > Mingott name, which had always been associated with good living; but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > My guess is ready-made, pre-cooked, store-bought. I don't know what the > exact opportunities would have been in that era. This is 1870 or so. While the lady in question was "thrifty," nothing here says anything about "ready-made food": ----- Mrs. Manson Mingott had long since succeeded in untying her husband's fortune, and had lived in affluence for half a century; but memories of her early straits had made her excessively thrifty, and though, when she bought a dress or a piece of furniture, she took care that it should be of the best, she could not bring herself to spend much on the transient pleasures of the table. Therefore, for totally different reasons, her food was as poor as Mrs. Archer's, and her wines did nothing to redeem it. Her relatives considered that the penury of her table discredited the Mingott name, which had always been associated with good living; but people continued to come to her in spite of the "made dishes" and flat champagne, and in reply to the remonstrances of her son Lovell (who tried to retrieve the family credit by having the best chef in New York) she used to say laughingly: "What's the use of two good cooks in one family, now that I've married the girls and can't eat sauces?" ------ > However, I see that MW11 has an even simpler meaning: > c : put together of various ingredients <a made dish> > > Is this snobbery that says a casserole combining mixed ingredients is > inferior to plain meat, vegetables, etc? Odd. This is tough to assess for those years. Thank you. Marius Hancu >> > people continued to come to her in spite of the "made dishes" and flat >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Is this snobbery that says a casserole combining mixed ingredients is >> inferior to plain meat, vegetables, etc? Odd. Yes, I think that's exactly what it is. Real food was roast meat and game. The expression crops up quite a lot in 19th century literature, and always IME with the same implication - that it is an inferior sort of dish offered by those who were too mean to provide real food. Ready-made or store-bought would have been unheard-of at that time. Katy >>> > people continued to come to her in spite of the "made dishes" and flat >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >with the same implication - that it is an inferior sort of dish offered by >those who were too mean to provide real food. I suspect that a casserole, hotpot, stew, or similar would have been associated primarily with the "lower classes". Such a mixed dish could make a small amount of a scarce or expensive ingredient "go a long way". Also, the less well-off would not necessarily have had the facilities to cook several separate items simultaneously. >Ready-made or store-bought would have been unheard-of at that time. > >Katy SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) > Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Is this snobbery that says a casserole combining mixed > ingredients is inferior to plain meat, vegetables, etc? Odd. How hopelessly middle-class! Of course it's snobbery. Stews and casseroles are for leftovers. They're dripping in sauces to hide the bad taste of yesterday. The only decent food is fresh food cooked immediately before the meal and served as individual helpings of one vegetable, one type of sliced meat or roast bird or roast bird part, etc. Not at all odd. Throwing bunches of stuff into a pot and drowning it in thick, pungent liquid is worse than having fried hash or Campbell's pork and beans with grilled hot dogs. Gimme Kraft macaroni and cheese any day. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >> Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >having fried hash or Campbell's pork and beans with grilled hot >dogs. Gimme Kraft macaroni and cheese any day. Hmmm. My wife makes stews and casseroles from fresh ingredients and serves them immediately after cooking. They come to the table in a dish, and are spooned out in individual helpings. "Thick (and) pungent" might describe some stews and casseroles, but not my wife's. That, of course, is an individual opinion that may or may not be shared by other tasters. Also, I rather like pork and beans with hot dogs. Not routinely, but certainly as well as I like mac and cheese. The problem with pork and beans with hot dogs is that the meal seems somehow incomplete without potato chips, and my wife won't buy potato chips for me. I admit to being hopeless, but I'm never sure if I'm middle-class or not since I range from low-class to high-class in all of the areas that seem to constitute "class". I'm not sure what I average. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL dontbother <dontbother@mushmail.mom> had it: > > Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote: > >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > having fried hash or Campbell's pork and beans with grilled hot > dogs. Gimme Kraft macaroni and cheese any day. Damn. There goes my dinner. What? Oh. Mixed Beans (pinto, haricot, mung, aduki, soaked overnight) tomatoes, tomato paste, sliced shallots, garlic, rosemary, bay leaves and cubed beef, with a dash of garlic/chilli sauce. All cooked slowly since about 10:00 this morning. One of the benefits of working at home. Actually, I meant to add some mushrooms. I'll go and do that now. SignatureDavid ===== > dontbother <dontbother@mushmail.mom> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Actually, I meant to add some mushrooms. I'll go and do that now. <drool> We're having sausages. Well, viennas, actually, the sort you dunk in boiling water. With chips, mustard and Mrs Elswood's finest pickled cucumbers. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) ... > Actually, I meant to add some mushrooms. I'll go and do that now. Why "and" ? Frank ess On 16 Nov 2006, Frank ess wrote > ... > >> Actually, I meant to add some mushrooms. I'll go and do that now. > > Why "and" ? Why not "and"? (fWIW, both forms sound entirely idiomatic to me, and idiomatic usage doesn't need a "reason".) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >> Actually, I meant to add some mushrooms. I'll go and do that now. > > Why "and" ? He can't do that where he is right now, so he'll have to go to where he can do it and then do it. Two actions. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ Frank ess <frank@fshe2fs.com> had it: > ... > > > Actually, I meant to add some mushrooms. I'll go and do that now. > > Why "and" ? Because I'm English. "I'll go do that now" is marked as (some form of) US speech and I wouldn't say it. SignatureDavid ===== the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> had it: > What? Oh. Mixed Beans (pinto, haricot, mung, aduki, soaked > overnight) tomatoes, tomato paste, sliced shallots, garlic, rosemary, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Actually, I meant to add some mushrooms. I'll go and do that now. And, annoyingly for AUE, I forgot to mention the generous dollop of Worcester Sauce, which makes a considerable difference. SignatureDavid ===== >> Marius Hancu <NOSPAM@videotron.ca> wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > casseroles are for leftovers. They're dripping in sauces to hide > the bad taste of yesterday. [...] That explanation fits the "flat champagne", also left over from the previous day (or even earlier . . .) Alan Jones >> Is this snobbery that says a casserole combining mixed ingredients >> is inferior to plain meat, vegetables, etc? Odd. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > or Campbell's pork and beans with grilled hot dogs. Gimme Kraft > macaroni and cheese any day. While not going as far as you, I do avoid anything containing curry powder. A legacy of my student days, when curry powder was the standard way of disguising the taste of meat that was starting to go off. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > dontbother wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > While not going as far as you, I'm being sarcastic to underscore Donna's disingenuousness there. > I do avoid anything containing curry powder. > A legacy of my student days, when curry powder was > the standard way of disguising the taste of meat that was > starting to go off. I make my own curry at home, but here in Taiwan and back in Japan, anything with curry sauce is fresh. The sauce is frequently provided in a gravy boat for the diner to add. I go only to decent restaurants, even if some of them are dirt cheap. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >>> Is this snobbery that says a casserole combining mixed ingredients >>> is inferior to plain meat, vegetables, etc? Odd. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > standard > way of disguising the taste of meat that was starting to go off. It does take a little experimenting and experience with eating different styles of food to find out what spices do and don't do. I can't recall now the places (restaurants) in which the meat tasted "a little off". I think I was well past my thirtieth year before I discovered that the taste that was "off" was cumin. I use a fair amount of cumin these days. It has an interesting flavor (and, I am glad I didn't badmouth those restaurants). [...] > While not going as far as you, I do avoid anything containing curry > powder. A legacy of my student days, when curry powder was the standard > way of disguising the taste of meat that was starting to go off. I've read somewhere that a big reason for the great emphasis on getting spices during the Middle Ages was that the lack of refrigeration made putrid meat the norm, and spices were needed to make the meat palatable. SignatureBob Cunningham, Southern California, USofA Are we still talking about English usage? > [...] > I've read somewhere that a big reason for the great emphasis > on getting spices during the Middle Ages was that the lack > of refrigeration made putrid meat the norm, and spices were > needed to make the meat palatable. Apparently they also provide some help in surviving its effects. > Are we still talking about English usage? No, food. On 17 Nov 2006, CDB wrote >> [...] > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > No, food. No change there, then. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Wharton, Edith, The Age of Innocence, p. 15 > http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/541/7.html As Franke says they would almost certainly be cassroles, etc. using left-over or cheap ingredients. Also one can add 'filler' items to stretch the main ingredients. Given what I have heard of cooking in the USA and UK for the time period the dishes probably would have been very plain, with few or no herbs or spices, thus the plain or "unappetizing" description. You haven't lived until you have had turkey or tuna cassarole made with canned mushroom soup, a favourite in the 1950's. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > people continued to come to her in spite of the "made dishes" and flat > champagne ... I'm guessing it means "store-made" or something similar, as opposed to "home-made." --Jeff SignatureWhenever morality is based on theology, whenever right is made dependent on divine authority, the most immoral, unjust, infamous things can be justified and established. --Ludwig Feuerbach > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Wharton, Edith, The Age of Innocence, p. 15 > http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/541/7.html Thrift might mean that she didn't spend a fortune on special cooks and assistants, nor daily visits to the market for the freshest stuff. The cook worked alone, and saved all the leftovers from one meal to use in the next. So the host's meals for entertaining, if good enough for her at home, were good enough for visitors. And a few people might have turned their noses up at such 'pre-made' meals, but if they continued to attend the "candlelight suppers", they only complained to pass the time of their very boring days. She must have had a huge bottle of champagne for lunch, and didn't finish it, so brought it out for guests. Too bad for them. (Is champagne really worth its reputation? Having my doubts, since I am not a wino.) > She must have had a huge bottle of champagne for lunch, and didn't > finish it, so brought it out for guests. Too bad for them. (Is > champagne really worth its reputation? Having my doubts, since I am not > a wino.) Flat champagne certainly isn't! On the other hands, there are still (non-bubbly) wines from Champagne that are highly spoken of by those in a better position than me to know. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> She must have had a huge bottle of champagne for lunch, and didn't >> finish it, so brought it out for guests. Too bad for them. (Is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >On the other hands, there are still (non-bubbly) wines from Champagne that >are highly spoken of by those in a better position than me to know. They're horizontal? SignatureMillicent Tendency (TEFKATHE) > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/541/7.html > ----- I think the OED entry sums it up: "made ... 2. Formed by composition. In certain specific applications. a. Cookery. made dish: a dish composed of several ingredients; so ?made meat. made gravy: a 'gravy' artificially compounded, as opposed to one consisting only of the juices exuding from meat in cooking. 1598 Epulario Djb, To make a kind of made meat in flesh time. 1621 Burton Anat. Mel. i. ii. ii. i. 96 An infinite number of compound artificiall made dishes. 1622 Mabbe tr. Aleman's Guzman d'Alf. i. 106 What made dishes; what hot, what cold, what boyld, what rost? 1632 B. Jonson Magn. Lady i. (1640) 17 A farragoe, Or a made dish in Court. 1747 H. Glasse Cookery ii. 13 Force-Meat Balls are a great Addition to all Made-Dishes. 1796 Ibid. viii. 142 You may use made-gravy, if you have not time to use the bones. 1852 Dickens Bleak Ho. xlix, The made-gravy acquiring no flavor, and turning out of a flaxen complexion. 1858 Mayhew Upper Rhine ii. §1 (1860) 48 The subtle nicety of a French made-dish." SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > > Her relatives considered that the penury of her table discredited the > > Mingott name, which had always been associated with good living; but > > people continued to come to her in spite of the "made dishes" and flat > > champagne ... > I think the OED entry sums it up: > > made dish: a dish composed of several ingredients; so ?made meat. made > gravy: a 'gravy' artificially compounded, as opposed to one consisting only > of the juices exuding from meat in cooking. OK, I've got it. Thank you all. Marius Hancu > > > Her relatives considered that the penury of her table discredited the > > > Mingott name, which had always been associated with good living; but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > OK, I've got it. I think you should add to your store that there was for centuries a British prejudice against dishes compounded of a number of ingredients: they were regarded by some as undesirably "Frenchified". You'll meet this elsewhere in literature. I think it was just prejudice, and British bourgeois cuisine in fact used a number of "made dishes", but sometimes you'll find it justified by claims that foreigners cooked with portions of a carcase which "in England would be fed only to dogs", and that in a made-up dish one couldn't identify what one was eating. SignatureMike. |
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