Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
Home
Discussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching
Learnglish.com
Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map

Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006



Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Neanderthal

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
HVS - 17 Nov 2006 22:10 GMT
Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
"thawl"?

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Jonathan Morton - 17 Nov 2006 22:15 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

Neither - "tahl" for me, i.e. some sort of attempt at the German.

Regards

Jonathan
CDB - 17 Nov 2006 22:19 GMT
>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl"
>> or "thawl"?
>
> Neither - "tahl" for me, i.e. some sort of attempt at the German.

As a CICista, I have no trouble admitting to that vowel.  I say
"-tawl" of the real ones and "-thawl" of their putative spiritual
descendants.
HVS - 17 Nov 2006 22:20 GMT
On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote

>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as
>> "tawl" or "thawl"?
>
> Neither - "tahl" for me, i.e. some sort of attempt at the
> German.

OK:  I'm happy to rephrase the question, as it had nothing to do with
the vowel.

Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Jonathan Morton - 17 Nov 2006 23:05 GMT
> On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

OK, I'm happy to rephrase my answer :-)

Whatever the vowel, "t".

Mine's a BrE perspective, and I don't really claim to speak German. But
I would say the "tahl" is a fairly standard BrE effort, if that helps.

Regards

Jonathan
Evan Kirshenbaum - 17 Nov 2006 23:07 GMT
> On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

"Th" for me, even though I "know better".  That's the way I mostly
hear it, too.

Signature

Evan Kirshenbaum                       +------------------------------------
   HP Laboratories                    |English grammar is not taught in
   1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141   |primary or secondary schools in the
   Palo Alto, CA  94304               |United States.  Sometimes some
                                      |mythology is taught under that
   kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com             |rubric, but luckily it's usually
   (650)857-7572                      |ignored, except by the credulous.
                                      |             John Lawler
   http://www.kirshenbaum.net/

Jonathan Morton - 17 Nov 2006 23:23 GMT
>> On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> "Th" for me, even though I "know better"...

I see what you mean. Maybe it makes a difference that this particular
word relates to a particular valley - and isn't, so to speak - a
"borrowed" proper name. Maybe it doesn't.

In similar vein, we have friends called Mosenthal, and they definitely
pronounce it "thawl". But others differ. Jim Rosenthal - a British TV
sports presenter - definitely uses "Rosentahl".

Regards

Jonathan
Sara Lorimer - 18 Nov 2006 23:42 GMT
> "Th" for me, even though I "know better".  That's the way I mostly
> hear it, too.

Yeah, what he said. I don't recall ever hearing the "t" version in the
wild -- only in TV documentaries.

Signature

SML

The Grammer Genious - 19 Nov 2006 01:49 GMT
>> "Th" for me, even though I "know better".  That's the way I mostly
>> hear it, too.
>
> Yeah, what he said. I don't recall ever hearing the "t" version in the
> wild -- only in TV documentaries.

And the scholars who use it in interviews are the same types that make
"whom" errors and relate historical events in the present tense ("During
this period, Jefferson is confused, and experiences mixed emotions regarding
his female slaves.").
Holly - 17 Nov 2006 23:12 GMT
> On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

In the USA it is pronounced "thawl."  Although "tahl" is accepted, I
think it is viewed as affected speech.  As others have said, the "tahl"
is more frequently spoken in northern European countries.  In Spain and
Southern France it is pronounced as it is in America, only with an
accent.  ;)
Jonathan Morton - 17 Nov 2006 23:54 GMT
>> On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Southern France it is pronounced as it is in America, only with an
> accent.  ;)

Since "th" in French is pronounced with a silent "h" I find that hard to
 believe.

Regards

Jonathan
Pat Durkin - 17 Nov 2006 23:54 GMT
>> On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
> In the USA it is pronounced "thawl."

For me, it's "-thahl".  Wisconsin, US, though I do occasionally hear
"tahl" and "thawl".
>Although "tahl" is accepted, I
> think it is viewed as affected speech.  As others have said, the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Southern France it is pronounced as it is in America, only with an
> accent.  ;)

Yeah.  They don't speak good English.
Robert Bannister - 18 Nov 2006 00:52 GMT
>>On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Southern France it is pronounced as it is in America, only with an
> accent.  ;)

I find it hard to imagine a southern French person saying "th" without
extreme difficulty. It's always been t for me; I have heard th, but have
refrained from commenting.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Paul Wolff - 17 Nov 2006 23:18 GMT
>On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

Tal, as in Botvinnik.
Signature

Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Mike Lyle - 18 Nov 2006 00:01 GMT
> >On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> Tal, as in Botvinnik.

"Tahl", as in Gruy?re.

Signature

Mike.

Holly - 18 Nov 2006 00:11 GMT
> > >On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> "Tahl", as in Gruyère.

Tahl as in James Bond.
Eric Walker - 17 Nov 2006 23:22 GMT
> Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

As simple "t".  In my youth I pronounced it as "th", but then became
aware of the information below and switched to the bare-t sound (and
the newer spelling).

>From the web site Talk Origins
(http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/spelling.html):

"The first such fossil was discovered in 1856 in the Neander Thal, or
"Neander Valley" in German, and became known as 'Neanderthal Man'. In
1904, German spelling was regularized to be more consistent with
pronunciation, and 'thal' became 'tal'. In 1952 Henri Vallois proposed
that it should be spelt as the Germans spell it, and the '-tal'
spelling has become widely used since then. The '-thal' spelling
persists most strongly in England."
Ray O'Hara - 18 Nov 2006 08:36 GMT
> > Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> spelling has become widely used since then. The '-thal' spelling
> persists most strongly in England."

Screw the Germans.
Robert Lieblich - 18 Nov 2006 14:55 GMT
[ ... ]

> Screw the Germans.

You're about seven decades late, Ray.

BTW, congratulations on your recently acquired capital letters.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
Don't let the surname fool you

Hatunen - 18 Nov 2006 02:06 GMT
>On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

People may pronounce it any old way, but Neanderthal man is named
for the valley his remains were first found in, the Neander
valley, and the mittleuropa word for valley is "tal" (also the
root of "dollar", but not the Neandertal). Sometimes the word for
valley is spelled "thal", but in that part of the world "th" is
pronunced "t".

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Oleg Lego - 18 Nov 2006 05:49 GMT
The HVS entity posted thusly:

>On 17 Nov 2006, Jonathan Morton wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

"th"
Richard Maurer - 18 Nov 2006 06:54 GMT
Harvey wrote:
[about Neanderthal]
  Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?

Is this a trick question?
Aren't there two types of "th"?
(One of them not common in English, but different from "t".)

--                       ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer              To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California       of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
HVS - 18 Nov 2006 09:06 GMT
On 18 Nov 2006, Richard Maurer wrote

> Harvey wrote:
> [about Neanderthal]
>    Do people pronounce the "th" as "t" or "th"?
>
> Is this a trick question?

Nope;  entirely straight up.

(I've explained in a follow-up post that it had to do with a pub
conversation -- not an argument, just a conversation -- which made me
wonder about pondial differences.)

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Peter Moylan - 18 Nov 2006 10:49 GMT
> Harvey wrote: [about Neanderthal] Do people pronounce the "th" as "t"
> or "th"?
>
> Is this a trick question? Aren't there two types of "th"? (One of
> them not common in English, but different from "t".)

Is this a trick response? I can think of three types of "th" that are
common in English. Examples can be found in "thing", "this", and "hothead".

Signature

Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses.  The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.  The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.

Ray O'Hara - 17 Nov 2006 22:28 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
> For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Technically TAHL most Americans say THALL.
Robert Bannister - 18 Nov 2006 00:49 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

"tahl"

Signature

Rob Bannister

Buckwheat Soba - 18 Nov 2006 03:14 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

"Thawl", which is more usual in AmE, though the "tawl" pronunciation is
heard from the pedantic.

Signature

Buckwheat Soba

Skitt - 18 Nov 2006 18:16 GMT
>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>> "thawl"?
>
> "Thawl", which is more usual in AmE, though the "tawl" pronunciation
> is heard from the pedantic.

"Tahl", but I grew up in Germany.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

R H Draney - 18 Nov 2006 05:15 GMT
HVS filted:

>Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>"thawl"?

"tahl", with the "t" dental rather than alveolar (as is my tendency in many
non-English languages)....r

Signature

"Keep your eye on the Bishop.  I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

mb - 18 Nov 2006 06:28 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

Are you proud of what you did, now?

You went and asked the stupidet possible question on the name of some
off-the-beat German valley that never had an English name, in an
*English* newgroup of all possible places, and some twenty otherwise
mostly reasonable adults are playing the stupid game.
HVS - 18 Nov 2006 09:10 GMT
On 18 Nov 2006, mb wrote

>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as
>> "tawl" or "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> in an *English* newgroup of all possible places, and some twenty
> otherwise mostly reasonable adults are playing the stupid game.

Yes -- people in here are very helpful.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Tony Cooper - 18 Nov 2006 13:06 GMT
>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>> "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>*English* newgroup of all possible places, and some twenty otherwise
>mostly reasonable adults are playing the stupid game.

I use the "th" version.  I feel stupidet.

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Leslie Danks - 18 Nov 2006 13:39 GMT
>>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>>> "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I use the "th" version.  I feel stupidet.

Shouldn't that be "stupideth"?

http://tinyurl.com/ye9kq
<quote>
The Neandertal vs. Neanderthal spelling question is, as you note,
complicated. It resulted from a change in the way German scripts were
translated in to English. (A parallel example - Peking now spelled
Beijing).  The german [sic] word for valley used to be spelled Thal, now it
is spelled Tal.  By the rules of biological taxonomy, though, the species
name for Neandertals was spelled the old way, neanderthalensis, and so
we're stuck with this archaic spelling for the species name.  In common
terminology, though, many scholars use the modern spelling (Neandertal) for
the region of the Neandertal find-spot.>
<unquote>

Signature

Les

mb - 18 Nov 2006 18:43 GMT
> >> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> >> "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> I use the "th" version.  I feel stupidet.

Well in that case you deserve a double serving of eSSeS.
Mike Lyle - 18 Nov 2006 19:13 GMT
> > >> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> > >> "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Well in that case you deserve a double serving of eSSeS.

I'm disappointed. I was hoping your post was going to be an explanation
of why the question had struck you as stupid.

Signature

Mike.

mb - 18 Nov 2006 19:38 GMT
> > > >> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> > > >> "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I'm disappointed. I was hoping your post was going to be an explanation
> of why the question had struck you as stupid.

Oh. I thought it would be more than evident.
OK, that might explain the serious discussion.

Because it is none of you guys' business, I thought.
The place is in Germany and has no English translated name.
Mike Lyle - 18 Nov 2006 20:02 GMT
> > > > >> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> > > > >> "thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Because it is none of you guys' business, I thought.
> The place is in Germany and has no English translated name.

You aren't, then, aware that "Neanderthal" has been in use as an
English word for a long time? The first record in OED is "Neanderthal
cranium" from 1861, with "Neanderthal man" from 1863. Far from being
off-the-beat, the place is probably one of about two valleys in Germany
that many English speakers could actually name without prompting, since
it was the site of discovery of extremely important hominid remains in
the ?1850s . Quite soon after these technical uses, it became
established as a pejorative term: I'm surprised you've never heard or
read it.

The serious discussion of variant pronunciations speaks for itself. You
get that with adopted foreign words.

Signature

Mike.

mb - 18 Nov 2006 22:29 GMT
mb wrote:
...
> > > I'm disappointed. I was hoping your post was going to be an explanation
> > > of why the question had struck you as stupid.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> established as a pejorative term: I'm surprised you've never heard or
> read it.

Sure I'm aware of all that.

> The serious discussion of variant pronunciations speaks for itself. You
> get that with adopted foreign words.

I still have to come off my admittedly peculiar definition of the
adoption procedure.
Robert Bannister - 18 Nov 2006 23:42 GMT
>>>>>>Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>>>>>>"thawl"?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Because it is none of you guys' business, I thought.
> The place is in Germany and has no English translated name.

But the species or race (I understand recent DNA research shows they
were no different from us) is known in English as Neandert(h)al Man, so
it is an English word.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Nick Atty - 19 Nov 2006 07:52 GMT
>But the species or race (I understand recent DNA research shows they
>were no different from us) is known in English as Neandert(h)al Man, so
>it is an English word.

Now going hopelessly off-topic, I'd love a reference to that.  The last
thing I read said the opposite: they were a branch off a common
ancestor, but contributed nothing to modern human populations.
Signature

On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon

Mike Lyle - 19 Nov 2006 13:52 GMT
> >But the species or race (I understand recent DNA research shows they
> >were no different from us) is known in English as Neandert(h)al Man, so
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> thing I read said the opposite: they were a branch off a common
> ancestor, but contributed nothing to modern human populations.

The sequencing and analysis is apparently still in progress, but I
gather that's likely to be right. There was a report in Nature last
week. This Grauniad piece refers:
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/research/story/0,,1949478,00.html

Signature

Mike.

Hatunen - 20 Nov 2006 18:12 GMT
>>But the species or race (I understand recent DNA research shows they
>>were no different from us) is known in English as Neandert(h)al Man, so
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>thing I read said the opposite: they were a branch off a common
>ancestor, but contributed nothing to modern human populations.

From

University Park, Pa. -- A team of U.S. and German researchers has
extracted mitochondrial DNA from Neandertal bone showing that the
Neandertal DNA sequence falls outside the normal variation of
modern humans.

"These results indicate that Neandertals did not contribute
mitochondrial DNA to modern humans," says Dr. Mark Stoneking,
associate professor of anthropology at Penn State. "Neandertals
are not our ancestors."

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Hatunen - 20 Nov 2006 18:13 GMT
>>But the species or race (I understand recent DNA research shows they
>>were no different from us) is known in English as Neandert(h)al Man, so
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>thing I read said the opposite: they were a branch off a common
>ancestor, but contributed nothing to modern human populations.

From http://www.psu.edu/ur/NEWS/news/Neandertal.html :

University Park, Pa. -- A team of U.S. and German researchers has
extracted mitochondrial DNA from Neandertal bone showing that the
Neandertal DNA sequence falls outside the normal variation of
modern humans.

"These results indicate that Neandertals did not contribute
mitochondrial DNA to modern humans," says Dr. Mark Stoneking,
associate professor of anthropology at Penn State. "Neandertals
are not our ancestors."


  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
R J Valentine - 20 Nov 2006 18:19 GMT
} On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 07:52:05 +0000, Nick Atty
} <1-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
}
}>On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 07:42:09 +0800, Robert Bannister <robban@it.net.au>
}>wrote:
}>
}>>But the species or race (I understand recent DNA research shows they
}>>were no different from us) is known in English as Neandert(h)al Man, so
}>>it is an English word.
}>
}>Now going hopelessly off-topic, I'd love a reference to that.  The last
}>thing I read said the opposite: they were a branch off a common
}>ancestor, but contributed nothing to modern human populations.
}
}
} From http://www.psu.edu/ur/NEWS/news/Neandertal.html :
}
} University Park, Pa. -- A team of U.S. and German researchers has
} extracted mitochondrial DNA from Neandertal bone showing that the
} Neandertal DNA sequence falls outside the normal variation of
} modern humans.
}
} "These results indicate that Neandertals did not contribute
} mitochondrial DNA to modern humans," says Dr. Mark Stoneking,
} associate professor of anthropology at Penn State. "Neandertals
} are not our ancestors."

Non sequitur.  It means only that they are merely not our strictly
matrilineal ancestors.  We could be almost entirely Neanderthalers.
Maybe at one point there was just one really cute non Neanderthaler.

Signature

rjv

Hatunen - 20 Nov 2006 18:31 GMT
>} On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 07:52:05 +0000, Nick Atty
>} <1-nospam@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>matrilineal ancestors.  We could be almost entirely Neanderthalers.
>Maybe at one point there was just one really cute non Neanderthaler.

I presume you actually read the article. It says the results show
there is no neandertal genetic contribution to homo sapiens, and
that the two species diverged some 500,000 years ago. If, in
fact, neandertalis and sapiens sapiens were very similar
genetically, they would have produced lost of little neander
sapiens which would have contributed neandertal genes to sapiens.
Certainly there would have likely been considerable sex between
the two species, given that homo sapiens is known to screw sheep
and donkeys and vacuum cleaners and certainly consenting
neandertals would have had some attraction.

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
R J Valentine - 20 Nov 2006 18:50 GMT
} On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:19:11 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
} <rj@TheWorld.com> wrote:
}
...
}>} From http://www.psu.edu/ur/NEWS/news/Neandertal.html :
}>}
}>} University Park, Pa. -- A team of U.S. and German researchers has
}>} extracted mitochondrial DNA from Neandertal bone showing that the
}>} Neandertal DNA sequence falls outside the normal variation of
}>} modern humans.
}>}
}>} "These results indicate that Neandertals did not contribute
}>} mitochondrial DNA to modern humans," says Dr. Mark Stoneking,
}>} associate professor of anthropology at Penn State. "Neandertals
}>} are not our ancestors."
}>
}>Non sequitur.  It means only that they are merely not our strictly
}>matrilineal ancestors.  We could be almost entirely Neanderthalers.
}>Maybe at one point there was just one really cute non Neanderthaler.
}
} I presume you actually read the article. It says the results show
} there is no neandertal genetic contribution to homo sapiens, and
} that the two species diverged some 500,000 years ago. If, in
} fact, neandertalis and sapiens sapiens were very similar
} genetically, they would have produced lost of little neander
} sapiens which would have contributed neandertal genes to sapiens.
} Certainly there would have likely been considerable sex between
} the two species, given that homo sapiens is known to screw sheep
} and donkeys and vacuum cleaners and certainly consenting
} neandertals would have had some attraction.

I read what you said some associate professor said (reiterated yet again
above).  It may be true that "These results indicate that Neandertals did
not contribute mitochondrial DNA to modern humans," as you quote Dr. Mark
Stoneking as saying; but the very next thing you quote him as saying
("Neandertals are not our ancestors.") does not follow from that.

If what *you* say ("there is no neandertal genetic contribution to homo
sapiens" [sic]) is also said in the article, that's am entirely different
matter.  I'd suggest that there is some 99 percent of DNA in common and
that what who contributed to whom would be hard to determine with current
techniques.  The mitochondrial DNA from the Neanderthal specimen is merely
different from that of Mitochondrial Eve.  Big deal.

Signature

rjv

Hatunen - 22 Nov 2006 18:35 GMT
>} On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:19:11 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
>} <rj@TheWorld.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>techniques.  The mitochondrial DNA from the Neanderthal specimen is merely
>different from that of Mitochondrial Eve.  Big deal.

Well, firs of all, i'm just referring you to the article and the
conclusions it draws., which you apparetnly have not bothered to
read, not necessarily arguing that it draws the correct
conclusions. You are free to draw any conclusion you like, of
course.

As to the associate professor, I am faced with the choice of
taking your genetic explanations or that of a professional in the
field. Hmmm, now let's see....

  ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) *************
   *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
   * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Holly - 22 Nov 2006 20:56 GMT
> >} On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 18:19:11 +0000 (UTC), R J Valentine
> >} <rj@TheWorld.com> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>     *       Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow         *
>     * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *

What's up with the focus on spelling here?  Makes me think there is
little substance. Gee-Wiz ... I think it's been since 6th grade that
anyone really was so uptight about spelling as some of these posters.
Is he your editor and are you trying to get your material published
somewhere?  Can you imagine, in a conversation, if I stopped you and
corrected your pronounciation, what you would think, feel and/or say to
me?  Bad manners all around.  Heh?   Are any of these folks successful,
published authors?  At least in one case, a very successful author was
given all sorts of grief.  Is there such a thing as a collective
Napoleon complex?
Skitt - 22 Nov 2006 21:21 GMT
> What's up with the focus on spelling here?  Makes me think there is
> little substance. Gee-Wiz ... I think it's been since 6th grade that
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> successful author was given all sorts of grief.  Is there such a
> thing as a collective Napoleon complex?

Well, the group's name is alt.usage.english, so spelling and punctuation
sort of comes under that.  There are some people who occasionally try to
point out the errors committed by those who may have implied that they are
fairly good at the language.  Schadenfreude, and all that.  There are some
from whom very little is expected.

I will offer no comment on the errors in your above post.  Happy?
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

Holly - 22 Nov 2006 21:58 GMT
> > What's up with the focus on spelling here?  Makes me think there is
> > little substance. Gee-Wiz ... I think it's been since 6th grade that
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I will offer no comment on the errors in your above post.  Happy?
> --

Yes Skitt, I am happy.  That is not to say that I couldn't learn a
thing or two.  If you get great satisfaction from correcting my
mistakes, I will accept them from you without rancor.  But please know,
that here, I would hope, the idea, the message, the concept is more
important than the precision of correct spelling.  I'll humble myself
by saying that one minute I spell a word correctly and then in another
its correct spelling escapes me.  It's not even a conscious thing.  I
will go so far as to reveal that this is the burden of someone with
ADHD, not an indication of a lack of education or capability but of an
impulsivity and a misfiring of neurons.  I bow to your superior
abilitiy to spell and ask that you take no offense when I do mess up.
I mean you no harm.
Skitt - 22 Nov 2006 22:19 GMT

> Yes Skitt, I am happy.  <snip>

Great.  My post of a few minutes ago may explain things somewhat.

Peace.
Signature

Skitt (in Hayward, California)
http://www.geocities.com/opus731/

CDB - 22 Nov 2006 21:03 GMT
> Well, firs of all, i'm just referring you to the article and the
> conclusions it draws., which you apparetnly have not bothered to
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> taking your genetic explanations or that of a professional in the
> field. Hmmm, now let's see....

I did read the article, and it seems to me that they made it clear
enough that they were talking only about mitochondrial DNA, which is
inherited exclusively through the female line.  As has been pointed
out, this leaves open the possibility of male Neanderthal
contributions to the modern gene pool.

Here is a paragraph from the article you referred to, with emphasis
added:

"The researchers are confident with their results, but they caution
that they are derived from only one individual. They also warn that
DNA may be difficult to extract from other specimens. While the
results indicate that Neandertals did not contribute *mitochondrial*
DNA to modern humans, *it is* *still possible that they contributed
other genes*."

Maybe it was a horse-donkey kind of thing.
Nick Atty - 23 Nov 2006 07:57 GMT
>> Well, firs of all, i'm just referring you to the article and the
>> conclusions it draws., which you apparetnly have not bothered to
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
>Maybe it was a horse-donkey kind of thing.

Or just bad luck - if all the mother-mother-mother lines happen not to
go through a Neanderthal woman then you'd get this.

After all, no-one is suggesting that "mitochondrial Eve" is the first
human female.

My instinct, although it's nearly 20 years since I could honestly call
myself a geneticist, is that there was complete speciation between
modern humans and Neanderthals.  This is a data point in favour of that
view, but certainly not proof.

Signature

On-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk

(Waterways World site of the month, April 2001)
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon

CDB - 23 Nov 2006 14:33 GMT
[...]
>> [(quoting)]
>> "The researchers are confident with their results, but they caution
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Or just bad luck - if all the mother-mother-mother lines happen not
> to go through a Neanderthal woman then you'd get this.

Yes, although they say the two groups coexisted in Europe for a long
time, which would seem to make some kind of systematic difference more
likely than mere chance.

> After all, no-one is suggesting that "mitochondrial Eve" is the
> first human female.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> between modern humans and Neanderthals.  This is a data point in
> favour of that view, but certainly not proof.

Speaking as a professionally inexpert observer, I'm afraid your
instinct is probably right on.  Too bad.
Peter Moylan - 18 Nov 2006 06:57 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

"tahl"; but shouldn't we be asking the Neandertals how _they_ pronounce it?

Signature

Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses.  The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.  The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.

dontbother - 18 Nov 2006 08:32 GMT
> HVS wrote:
>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as
>> "tawl" or "thawl"?
>
> "tahl"; but shouldn't we be asking the Neandertals how _they_
> pronounce it?

Maybe the descendents of of Mary Magadalene and Jesus in France know
some of those people. I've heard that they (contemporary genetically
related, not metaphoric, Neandertals) exist.

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."

Mike Lyle - 18 Nov 2006 23:12 GMT
> > Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> > "thawl"?
>
> "tahl"; but shouldn't we be asking the Neandertals how _they_ pronounce it?

Only the ones whose first language is English. Of whom there seem to be
plenty.

Signature

Mike.

Oleg Lego - 19 Nov 2006 01:35 GMT
The Peter Moylan entity posted thusly:

>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>> "thawl"?
>
>"tahl"; but shouldn't we be asking the Neandertals how _they_ pronounce it?

Why? We don't ask the French how to pronounce "raisin", do we?
Robert Lieblich - 19 Nov 2006 01:59 GMT

> The Peter Moylan entity posted thusly:

> >> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> >> "thawl"?

> >"tahl"; but shouldn't we be asking the Neandertals how _they_ pronounce it?

> Why? We don't ask the French how to pronounce "raisin", do we?

Considering how awfully the French pronounce most words, it seems only
prudent not to ask them.  You'd think they'd at least stop talking
through their noses.

Not to mention those funny marks they put on the bottom of the leter
"c" or over various wowels.

How ever did they get a permanent seat on the Security Council?

Signature

Bob Lieblich
But, ah! their cuisine

Peter Moylan - 19 Nov 2006 02:22 GMT
> Considering how awfully the French pronounce most words, it seems only
> prudent not to ask them.  You'd think they'd at least stop talking
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> How ever did they get a permanent seat on the Security Council?

Grave and acute influence.

Signature

Peter Moylan                             http://www.pmoylan.org

Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses.  The domain
eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer
receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses.  The optusnet
address could disappear at any time.

Tony Cooper - 19 Nov 2006 03:05 GMT
>> The Peter Moylan entity posted thusly:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>How ever did they get a permanent seat on the Security Council?

If you were on the Security Council, and wanted to be on the dinner
invitation list of other members, who would you want as a fellow
member:  A Frenchman or a Dutchman?

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Robert Lieblich - 19 Nov 2006 04:17 GMT
[ ... ]

> If you were on the Security Council, and wanted to be on the dinner
> invitation list of other members, who would you want as a fellow
> member:  A Frenchman or a Dutchman?

Since I speak neither French nor Dutch, I'd just as soon have the
Dutchman.  He'd probably waste less time trying to engage me in
conversation.

What's that you say? -- they both speak English.  Still the Dutchman.
His English accent is probably better.

But I'd want a Frenchman in the kitchen.

Signature

Bob Lieblich
No wonder I'm never invited to dine at either embassy

dontbother - 19 Nov 2006 05:59 GMT
> Tony Cooper wrote:
> [ ... ]
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> But I'd want a Frenchman in the kitchen.

Give me an Indian in the kitchen and a Dutch woman at the dinner
party.

Signature

Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor
Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan.
Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com
"Impatience is the mother of misery."

Oleg Lego - 19 Nov 2006 07:12 GMT
The Robert Lieblich entity posted thusly:

>[ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
>But I'd want a Frenchman in the kitchen.

Not me. He'd put three ounces of meat, 2 asparagus spears, and 2
ounces of meat on a plate, dribble a little sauce around the thing,
and call it a meal. Give me a decent rijstaffel any day.
Oleg Lego - 19 Nov 2006 07:18 GMT
The Oleg Lego entity posted thusly:

>The Robert Lieblich entity posted thusly:
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>ounces of meat on a plate, dribble a little sauce around the thing,
>and call it a meal. Give me a decent rijstaffel any day.

Oops! Make that last "two ounces of potatoes".
Jonathan Morton - 19 Nov 2006 09:53 GMT
> [ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> What's that you say? -- they both speak English.  Still the Dutchman.
> His English accent is probably better...

...than mine or yours, very probably.

Jonathan
Tony Cooper - 19 Nov 2006 13:36 GMT
>[ ... ]
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>Dutchman.  He'd probably waste less time trying to engage me in
>conversation.

Fine.  You get Jan Lodder as your dinner companion.  

>What's that you say? -- they both speak English.  Still the Dutchman.
>His English accent is probably better.
>
>But I'd want a Frenchman in the kitchen.

With Jan at the table, I'd be in the kitchen with the cook offering to
help with the washing up.

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Robert Bannister - 19 Nov 2006 23:34 GMT
> The Peter Moylan entity posted thusly:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Why? We don't ask the French how to pronounce "raisin", do we?

Not the same thing: you'd have to ask a raisin or grape to keep to the
analogy.

Signature

Rob Bannister

Oleg Lego - 20 Nov 2006 03:49 GMT
The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly:

>> The Peter Moylan entity posted thusly:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Not the same thing: you'd have to ask a raisin or grape to keep to the
>analogy.

I don't think so. Neanderthal is presumable a foreign language, as is
French. The analogy looks fine to me.
Peacenik - 18 Nov 2006 08:36 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

I say "thall". I'm from West coast USA. The "tall" ending sounds pedantic to
me.
Mark Brader - 18 Nov 2006 08:52 GMT
Harvey Van Sickle.
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

No.  Knee Anne Dur Tholl, the last syllable rhyming with "doll".
Signature

Mark Brader, Toronto, msb@vex.net
       "Have you ever heard [my honesty] questioned?"
       "I never even heard it mentioned."      -- Every Day's a Holiday

Oleg Lego - 19 Nov 2006 01:36 GMT
The Mark Brader entity posted thusly:

>Harvey Van Sickle.
>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>> "thawl"?
>
>No.  Knee Anne Dur Tholl, the last syllable rhyming with "doll".

Not Knee Anne Dur Thawl, the last syllable rhyming with "awl"?
Garrett Wollman - 19 Nov 2006 01:58 GMT
>Harvey Van Sickle.
>> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>> "thawl"?

>No.  Knee Anne Dur Tholl, the last syllable rhyming with "doll".

Interesting.  It occurs to me that I don't make that distinction, so
(for example) "doll", "maul", "fall", and "crawl" all rhyme, even
though I don't have the cot-caught merger.  One interesting pairing
would be "Moll" versus the first syllable of "Molly".  And I'm not
quite sure how I would normally pronounce "atoll".  Looking at a
convenient word list, there seem to three equivalence classes:

(a) roll, poll, boll, droll, toll, knoll, Noll, scroll, stroll, troll
(b) doll, Moll, Holl
(c) plimsoll

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Buckwheat Soba - 19 Nov 2006 06:37 GMT
> Interesting.  It occurs to me that I don't make that distinction, so
> (for example) "doll", "maul", "fall", and "crawl" all rhyme, even
> though I don't have the cot-caught merger.  

So do those words have the cot vowel or the caught vowel?

> One interesting pairing
> would be "Moll" versus the first syllable of "Molly".  

One has cot and the other has caught?

Signature

Buckwheat Soba

Garrett Wollman - 19 Nov 2006 17:51 GMT
>> Interesting.  It occurs to me that I don't make that distinction, so
>> (for example) "doll", "maul", "fall", and "crawl" all rhyme, even
>> though I don't have the cot-caught merger.  
>
>So do those words have the cot vowel or the caught vowel?

Neither.  I *think* they have the in-between vowel that CIC people
have, but since I'm not one of them it's hard to tell.

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Buckwheat Soba - 19 Nov 2006 21:41 GMT
>>> Interesting.  It occurs to me that I don't make that distinction, so
>>> (for example) "doll", "maul", "fall", and "crawl" all rhyme, even
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Neither.  I *think* they have the in-between vowel that CIC people
> have, but since I'm not one of them it's hard to tell.

So for example you rhyme "Polly" and "Paulie"?  

Signature

Buckwheat Soba

HVS - 19 Nov 2006 22:40 GMT
On 19 Nov 2006, Buckwheat Soba wrote

>>>> Interesting.  It occurs to me that I don't make that
>>>> distinction, so (for example) "doll", "maul", "fall", and
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> So for example you rhyme "Polly" and "Paulie"?  

I'm a dyed-in-the-wool CIC and MIMIM, but even I don't rhyme those
two.

(I don't make yer full-blown cot/caught distinction, but they're
definitely different vowel sounds, even for me.)

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Garrett Wollman - 20 Nov 2006 02:01 GMT
>> [I wrote:]
>> Neither.  I *think* they have the in-between vowel that CIC people
>> have, but since I'm not one of them it's hard to tell.
>
>So for example you rhyme "Polly" and "Paulie"?  

Nope.  "Polly" has the "cot" vowel and "Paulie" has "caught".

-GAWollman

Signature

Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL.     | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

Default User - 19 Nov 2006 18:00 GMT
> > Interesting.  It occurs to me that I don't make that distinction, so
> > (for example) "doll", "maul", "fall", and "crawl" all rhyme, even
> > though I don't have the cot-caught merger.  
>
> So do those words have the cot vowel or the caught vowel?

Around these parts, "caught".

> > One interesting pairing
> > would be "Moll" versus the first syllable of "Molly".  
>
> One has cot and the other has caught?

Around these parts, "Molly" has "cot", and "Moll" has "caught".

Brian

Signature

If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)

HVS - 18 Nov 2006 09:03 GMT
On 17 Nov 2006, HVS wrote

> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as
> "tawl" or "thawl"?

Many thanks for the replies.

This came about (as it often does) from a pub conversation, when I
realised that at some point over the past 30 years or so, I must have
switched from "thall" to "tall".

It struck me that it might be a pondial thing -- it seems to be, as
Collins gives only the "tall" pronunciation -- but I wasn't aware of
the view that the "tall" version might be considered pedantic or
precious in some circles.  (I think I'd have expected the reverse:
that using "thall" was frowned upon as uneducated.)

Again, many thanks for highlighting a previously unknown -- to me --
pondial difference.

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

Oleg Lego - 19 Nov 2006 01:38 GMT
The HVS entity posted thusly:

>On 17 Nov 2006, HVS wrote
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>precious in some circles.  (I think I'd have expected the reverse:
>that using "thall" was frowned upon as uneducated.)

Well, with one bunch thinking "tall" is pedantic, possibly the pedants
think of "thall" as being uneducated.

>Again, many thanks for highlighting a previously unknown -- to me --
>pondial difference.
R H Draney - 19 Nov 2006 02:38 GMT
Oleg Lego filted:

>The HVS entity posted thusly:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Well, with one bunch thinking "tall" is pedantic, possibly the pedants
>think of "thall" as being uneducated.

And there in a nutshell, ladies and gentlemen, is the reason they became
extinct....r

Signature

"Keep your eye on the Bishop.  I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

Adrian Bailey - 18 Nov 2006 17:15 GMT
> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

tholl

Adrian
t4a - 18 Nov 2006 19:10 GMT
HVS schrieb:

> Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
> "thawl"?

Actually, this should be put in a wider perspective. Not too long ago a
phenomenon was discovered that the letter order within a word is of
minor importance to the reader as he is somehow able to rearrange the
letters quickly in his brain to recognize the 'misspelled' word.
Therefore, it appears not too surprising that not only '-tahl' is
differently pronounced from its German origin but also names with e.g.
'-stein' in them mutate with a high probability to '-stien' in their
spoken version.

The question is though, is this a general rule or a locally or
educationally induced effect? Which brings us back to the original idea
of conducting a poll.

Regards,
Igor
Paul Wolff - 18 Nov 2006 20:20 GMT
>HVS schrieb:
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>educationally induced effect? Which brings us back to the original idea
>of conducting a poll.

As far as Stein is concerned, it's a pronounced Steen in Schottland, at
least as a surname (does anyone know why?).  Jock Stein is a name to
stir the heart of every Glaswegian, though some of those hearts may be
stirred widdershins.
Signature

Paul
In bocca al Lupo!

Don Aitken - 18 Nov 2006 22:14 GMT
>>HVS schrieb:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>As far as Stein is concerned, it's a pronounced Steen in Schottland, at
>least as a surname (does anyone know why?).

Probably because it is an old Scottish name with no connection to the
German name which happens to be spelled the same way.

Signature

Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"

t4a - 19 Nov 2006 09:18 GMT
Don Aitken schrieb:

> >>HVS schrieb:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Probably because it is an old Scottish name with no connection to the
> German name which happens to be spelled the same way.

Oh well, I fell victim to my own theory. (I wonder how often that
happens ...) Therefore I missed the point of the discussion whether or
not to consider the 'h' in 'Thal'. My focus was on the position of the
'h'.

Anyway, about the subconscious letter rearrangement also 'neither'
comes into mind. The two possible pronunciations in AE might support
that theory.

Regards,
Igor
Amethyst Deceiver - 19 Nov 2006 18:47 GMT
>Quick straw poll:  do you pronounce the fourth syllable as "tawl" or
>"thawl"?

"th", as in 'thing'. And schwa for the vowel.
Signature

Linz
Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford
My accent may vary

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2012 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.