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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Seventeen-hand chestnuts
Hello: What could this "seventeen-hand chestnuts" mean? Is this a horse/hunting party with 17 horses? Mr. van der Luyden is an avid hunter, but he seems to hunt in Virginia, not in the NYC. ------ [Mrs. Archer is making a visit at the van der Luydens', her cousins and the social arbiters of New York, in the 1870s. She's leaving now] Mrs. Archer, who knew this to be a hint that the seventeen-hand chestnuts which were never kept waiting were at the door, rose with a hurried murmur of thanks. Mrs. van der Luyden beamed on her with the smile of Esther interceding with Ahasuerus; but her husband raised a protesting hand. The Age of Innocence - Edith Wharton, p. 64 http://www.classic-novels.com/author/edith_wharton/age_of_innocence/ageofinnocen ce009.shtml ------ Thank you. Marius Hancu > What could this "seventeen-hand chestnuts" mean? > Is this a horse/hunting party with 17 horses? The height of a horse is traditionally measured in "hands". A "hand" is four inches. A brown horse is described as "chestnut". So a seventeen hand chestnut is a brown horse, height five foot and eight inches. Matthew Huntbach > > What could this "seventeen-hand chestnuts" mean? > > Is this a horse/hunting party with 17 horses? > > The height of a horse is traditionally measured in "hands". A "hand" is > four inches. A brown horse is described as "chestnut". So a seventeen > hand chestnut is a brown horse, height five foot and eight inches. Five foot eight inches to the shoulder, that is. A horse is always taller than its height, curiously. It's often much younger than its age, too, if it happens to be a race horse. And if it's grey, it's white. Jac > > > What could this "seventeen-hand chestnuts" mean? > > > Is this a horse/hunting party with 17 horses? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > younger than its age, too, if it happens to be a race horse. And if > it's grey, it's white. Interesting ... Thank you all. Marius Hancu [...] > A horse is always taller than its height, curiously. It's often much > younger than its age, too, if it happens to be a race horse. And if > it's grey, it's white. But if it's blue, it's grey.  SignatureMike. > [...] >> A horse is always taller than its height, curiously. It's often much >> younger than its age, too, if it happens to be a race horse. And if >> it's grey, it's white. > > But if it's blue, it's grey. That's a horse of a different colour. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. The Peter Moylan entity posted thusly: >> [...] >>> A horse is always taller than its height, curiously. It's often much [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >That's a horse of a different colour. Unless it's eating pastries, in which case it may be a horse of a different cruller. > A horse is always taller than its height, curiously. It's often much > younger than its age, too, if it happens to be a race horse. And if > it's grey, it's white. > > Jac Grey= White for all horses or just race horses? I am sure we had greys about the place when I was a child but we had work horses not race horses. John Kane, Kingston ON Canada > > A horse is always taller than its height, curiously. It's often much > > younger than its age, too, if it happens to be a race horse. And if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > about the place when I was a child but we had work horses not race > horses. Greys is the term you'd hear for all white horses here (except those that are on pub signs or whisky labels). What colour were your greys? Jac [...] > Five foot eight inches to the shoulder, that is. > > A horse is always taller than its height, curiously. It's often much > younger than its age, too, if it happens to be a race horse. And if > it's grey, it's white. Do you measure how high your car is by the top of the radio antenna? ;-) (There's probably a practical reason for not measuring to the poll -- if *you're 5' 8", the poll is out of reach without a ladder, but the shoulder is handy (to coin a phrase). BTW, grey horses are typically born dark (sooty grey) and become lighter with age, frequently getting all the way to white while still active. /dps > A brown horse is described as "chestnut". Close, but "brown" and "chestnut" are two different equine colors, officially. Chestnut is lighter, and has a tinge of red -- kinda like a quick henna rinse on a brunette. /dps > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > smile of Esther interceding with Ahasuerus; but her husband raised a > protesting hand. A hand is a unit of measurement (equal to 4 inches) used to measure the height of a horse. See: http://tinyurl.com/ygrt9m SignatureLes Marius Hancu wrote, in <DrC7h.56162$DK.676124@wagner.videotron.net> on Sat, 18 Nov 2006 06:48:58 -0500: > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > The Age of Innocence - Edith Wharton, p. 64 > http://www.classic-novels.com/author/edith_wharton/age_of_innocence/ageofinnocen ce009.shtml A hand is a measure of length, four inches, used only for horses. A "seventeen-hand chestnut" is a horse 68 inches high at the shoulder. SignatureNick Spalding > A hand is a measure of length, four inches, used only for horses. A > "seventeen-hand chestnut" is a horse 68 inches high at the shoulder. Not to be confused with eg a "two-handed sword". SignatureRob Bannister >Hello: > >What could this "seventeen-hand chestnuts" mean? >Is this a horse/hunting party with 17 horses? A "hand" is 4 inches, and measures the hjight of a horse at the withers. A chestnut is a horse of a particular colour, a sort of light brown. 17 hands is big for a riding horse. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > >What could this "seventeen-hand chestnuts" mean? > >Is this a horse/hunting party with 17 horses? > 17 hands is big for a riding horse. The horses in the passage are carriage horses. Jac > What could this "seventeen-hand chestnuts" mean? > Is this a horse/hunting party with 17 horses? This is simply horsemen's language (still used today.) Most breeds of horse are named simply by their colour, cf. "You take the chestnut, I'lll take the bay," (song "Camptown Races.") The size of a horse is measured to the withers (shoulders I think) in hands, and each hand is 1/3 foot. So these horses stand 5 feet 8 inches tall. When you climb into the saddle (from the left side) your left hand goes on the withers. This may be why hand=4 inches is thus names. SignatureDon Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada) > When you climb into the saddle > (from the left side) your left hand goes on the > withers. This may be why hand=4 inches is > thus names. No, it's short for 'handbreadth'. There's a useful illustrative picture on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_(unit) but essentially it's the distance from index finger to pinky when extended. It's quite easy and quick to measure a horse this way. There are exceptions to the rule about ponies quoted on that page - Arabs aren't ponies even when smaller than 14.2hh, nor are some of the 'primeval horse' breeds like Icelandic and Przewalski, and polo ponies are commonly taller than 14.2hh. Miniature horses aren't ponies either, and are much smaller. Jac >> When you climb into the saddle >>(from the left side) your left hand goes on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it's the distance from index finger to pinky when extended. It's quite > easy and quick to measure a horse this way. That's odd. My "span" is just about 9" when I press against a ruler, but my "hand" is easily over six inches. I get 4" just holding my thumb against my palm and measuring across that, and that's what I always thought a hand was. --Jeff SignatureWhenever morality is based on theology, whenever right is made dependent on divine authority, the most immoral, unjust, infamous things can be justified and established. --Ludwig Feuerbach > > No, it's short for 'handbreadth'. There's a useful illustrative picture > > on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_(unit) but essentially [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > thumb against my palm and measuring across that, and that's what I > always thought a hand was. Are you large-framed or tall? I get 4" (relaxed 'hand'), 8.2" (span), and 3.5" (thumb/palm). I wonder if I'm nearer the size of the average ostler or horse trader over the centuries, at 5ft6? You aren't supposed to *stretch* for a hand, just let your fingers rest while extended (IYSWIM). Jac > > > No, it's short for 'handbreadth'. There's a useful illustrative picture > > > on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_(unit) but essentially [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You aren't supposed to *stretch* for a hand, just let your fingers rest > while extended (IYSWIM). You out-equine me at all points (har!), but are you sure of your method here? I'm around average for a man, and I get four inches from thumb to pinky with closed fingers. Splaying gently goes a bit over six from forefinger to pinky. SignatureMike. >>> No, it's short for 'handbreadth'. There's a useful illustrative >>> picture on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_(unit) but [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > You aren't supposed to *stretch* for a hand, just let your fingers > rest while extended (IYSWIM). I'm 5.5" with my fingers relaxed but apart. 9.5" at full stretch. 5" with fingers closed. I can only get down to 4" if I scrunch fingers and thumb together. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>> No, it's short for 'handbreadth'. There's a useful illustrative >>>> picture on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_(unit) but [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >fingers closed. I can only get down to 4" if I scrunch fingers and thumb >together. You know this is leading to a "Big hands means a big...", don't you? SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > >>>> No, it's short for 'handbreadth'. There's a useful illustrative > >>>> picture on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_(unit) but [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > You know this is leading to a "Big hands means a big...", don't you? Thought that was noses. SignatureMike. >> >>>> No, it's short for 'handbreadth'. There's a useful illustrative >> >>>> picture on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hand_(unit) but [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Thought that was noses. Big noses only lead to strong neck muscles. If not, I would have drowned in my soup years ago. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL The Jeffrey Turner entity posted thusly: >>> When you climb into the saddle >>>(from the left side) your left hand goes on the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >thumb against my palm and measuring across that, and that's what I >always thought a hand was. Yes, that's what a hand is. The Wiki thing has it wrong (North American usage). > The Jeffrey Turner entity posted thusly: > I get 4" just holding my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Yes, that's what a hand is. The Wiki thing has it wrong (North > American usage). Odd; the finger method is how I was taught to measure horses in Ox/Bucks/Berks twenty years ago, by people who had something of a family career going in racing. I wonder how that came about. Measuring quickly is much easier when you're doing a form of 'incy-wincy' measurement with your fingers rather than 'stacking' palms. Jac >> The Jeffrey Turner entity posted thusly: >> I get 4" just holding my [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 'incy-wincy' measurement with your fingers rather than 'stacking' > palms. OED has an interesting trail of information. For 'hand' there is: 20. A lineal measure, formerly taken as equal to three inches, but now to four; a palm, a hand-breadth [1]. Now used only in giving the height of horses and the like. 1561 Eden Arte Nauig. i. xviii. 19 Foure graines of barlye make a fynger: foure fingers a hande: foure handes a foote. 1661 Lovell Hist. Anim. & Min. 102 Prickles+of two or three hands length. 1664 Butler Hud. ii. i. 694 A Roan Gelding twelve Hands high. 1810 Sporting Mag. XXXVI. 196 A galloway under fourteen hands. 1857 G. Lawrence Guy Liv. (Tauchn.) 67 (Hoppe) A chestnut standing full sixteen hands. [1] this links directly to handbreadth A Unit of lineal measure in many countries and periods, founded on the width of the adult human hand, a palm [2]; formerly estimated as one-fourth of a foot, but now as four inches. 1535 Coverdale 1 Kings vii. 26 The thicknesse was an handbreth. 1559 W. Cuningham Cosmogr. Glasse 56 A Hande breadth. Conteyninge in it 4 Fingers. A Fote. Conteyninge in it 4 Hande breadth. 1653 H. Cogan tr. Pinto's Trav. lxvi. 267 Within nine hand-bredths of the Water. 1843 Macaulay Lays Anc. Rome, Horatius xlv, The good sword stood a hand-breadth out Behind the Tuscan's head. 1875 G. J. Whyte-Melville Riding Recollect. iv. (1879) 65 A handsbreadth behind the girths. [2] This links directly to palm I. 1. a. The part of the hand between the wrist and the fingers, esp. its inner surface on which the fingers close, and which is nearly flat when extended. (In early use sometimes = hand.) a 13+ E.E. Allit. P. B. 1533 Þer apered a paume, with poyntel in fyngres þat watz grysly and gret, and grymly he wrytes. 1377 Langl. P. Pl. B. xvii. 175 Þe paume hath powere to put oute alle þe ioyntes. 1382 Wyclif Matt. xxvi. 67 Other Souen strokis with the pawm of hondis in to his face. 1387 Trevisa Higden (Rolls) III. 311 A childe drynke of þe pame of his hond. c1475 Partenay 4306 Plain pawme of hande the swerde made entre. c1400 Mandeville (Roxb.) xxxii. 147 Þe visage and þe palmez of þe hend. 1484 Caxton Curiall 4 She lawgheth+and smyteth her paulmes to-gydre. 1535 Coverdale 2 Kings ix. 35 They founde nothinge of her, but the szkull and the fete, and the palmes of her handes. 1616 Chapman Homer's Hymn to Apollo 305 But here the fair-hair'd Graces,+Danc'd, and each other's palm to palm did cling. 1740 Somerville Hobbinol iii. 183 She of the Gypsy Train+artful to view The spreading Palm, and with vile Cant deceive The Love-sick Maid. 1813 Scott Rokeby vi. xii, He pressed his forehead with his palm. 1871 R. Ellis Catullus lxiv. 261 Part with a slender palm taborines beat merrily jangling. 1825 Longfellow Spir. Poetry 5 The leaves above their sunny palms outspread. So 'palm' was once used to mean 'hand' and 'handbreadth' was a term for palm/hand as unit of measurement. Fingers were not involved; this was nothing to do with a hand's span [3]. 'handbreadth' became known as 'hand' when used as a unit of measurement. A handbreadth used to be 3 inches but is now 4 inches. When I measure my palm it is 4 inches in width, almost exactly. The distance between my wrist and fingers is also 4 inches, near as dammit. [3] OED defines 'span' as 1. a. The distance from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger, or sometimes to the tip of the forefinger, when the hand is fully extended; the space equivalent to this taken as a measure of length, averaging nine inches. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > So 'palm' was once used to mean 'hand' and 'handbreadth' was a term for > palm/hand as unit of measurement. Fingers were not involved; this was [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > When I measure my palm it is 4 inches in width, almost exactly. The distance > between my wrist and fingers is also 4 inches, near as dammit. I have small hands, so across the fingers, I get about 2.5 inches; the palm 3.25 inches. But, if I measure the palm including the thumb, which is how I would use my hands to measure (one hand laid next to the other, over and over), I do end up with almost exactly 4 inches. SignatureRob Bannister [...] > This is simply horsemen's language (still > used today.) > > Most breeds of horse are named simply > by their colour, cf. "You take the chestnut, > I'lll take the bay," (song "Camptown Races.") I'm going to disagree on this statement as I thinks it is oversimplified. A breed would be Arab, Lippizaner, Standard Bred, Quarterhorse, Morgan, Gypsy, etc. The horses at Camptown should have been Thoroughbreds, although ad hoc races may not have specified the breeds. Many of the breeds are similar colors, and many breeds have multiple choice colors (Friesians, Percherons, Clydesdales, and Gypsies are examples where the choice is officially limited). The palette of horse colors is fairly diverse, and some of the terms are not in common use outside of equinology. Some other color terms (which might appear in the same novel) would be black, brown, grey, dapple (a modifier of grey, AIUI), pinto, overo, roan (a couple of different versions, depending on the under-color), carmello, dun, and buckskin. Heck, I'll repeat chestnut just to get it in the same place. That's the ones I can do from memory, and there's a bunch more that are used mainly be specialists. Now I'll have to go back to my horse books, and practice all this stuff before my daughters and girlfriend quiz me again. And I still have to learn what the various bits of leather are. Time to rein me in. /dps > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > smile of Esther interceding with Ahasuerus; but her husband raised a > protesting hand. It's a tall story. SignatureRob Bannister |
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