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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Law and order, rhyme and reason
Following recent civil unrest in Tonga, a newscaster describing events said: "Law and (pause, shuffling papers noise) order" has been restored. It prompted me to wonder if it would be possible to restore "law" without "order". I can imagine that a kind of order might prevail without the rule of law, but the concept seems a little harder the other way about. In Norton Juster's "The Phantom Tollbooth", "Rhyme" and "Reason" are two distinct characters, but again, it's hard to imagine someone using the phrase so as to distinguish one from the other. I can imagine someone saying something that made internal sense but was unreasonable with reference to what was known about the things to which it referred -- some conspiracy theories probably fit a description of having "rhyme but not reason" and it occurred to me that still other might have reason but not rhyme. Some conspiracy theories postulate ideas that are self contradictory, but some of which, individually, might be reasonable. Comments anyone? TOF > Comments anyone? A search at Google/News on "law and order is" had many hits -- http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=%22law+and+order+is%22&btnG=Search+News So, peace and quiet is paramount on my mind as I call it a day. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > > Comments anyone? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego Laura Norder even gets 9590 hits TOF > > Comments anyone? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > So, peace and quiet is paramount on my mind as I call it a day. After a tough session going hammer and tongs with might and main, you can relax with Voice and Verse: rhyme and reason linked to sound and sense usually restore one's heart and soul.  SignatureMike. >Following recent civil unrest in Tonga, a newscaster describing events >said: > >"Law and (pause, shuffling papers noise) order" has been restored. As opposed to "Lore and awdah", I suppose. There's a firm of "elder-lore attorneys" which advertises a lot in my area. I suppose the Lovecraft estate might hire one of those. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > Following recent civil unrest in Tonga, a newscaster describing > events said: > > "Law and (pause, shuffling papers noise) order" has been restored. Given that half the city's been burnt down, I very much doubt that order has been restored. It's much the same in Baghdad. They have law - even the outlaws wear police uniforms these days - but not much order. SignaturePeter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org Please note the changed e-mail and web addresses. The domain eepjm.newcastle.edu.au no longer exists, and I can no longer receive mail at my newcastle.edu.au addresses. The optusnet address could disappear at any time. > It's much the same in Baghdad. They have law - even the outlaws wear > police uniforms these days - but not much order. As you may know, in a typical episode of the US TV series "Law & Order", the first half features the investigation of a crime by the police, and the second half features the ensuing court case. Correspondingly, the regular cast members are credited in two sections in the opening credits: first the police and then the prosecutors. And the words LAW and ORDER are shown, respectively, before the two sections. It always seems to me that, while they had to do it that way because of the show's structure and the word order of the phrase, it's actually backwards. Police do order; courts do law. At least, that's the way it's supposed to work. I make no comment about Baghdad or any other real place. SignatureMark Brader | "There is ample evidence that Mr. Coyote was Toronto | violating both the laws of gravity and inertia msb@vex.net | at the time of this incident, and thus he is | responsible for his own woes." --Stephen Menard My text in this article is in the public domain. [re NBC's _Law and Order_] > It always seems to me that, while they had to do it that way because > of the show's structure and the word order of the phrase, it's actually > backwards. Police do order; courts do law. Agreed. I recall my father criticizing one of the _Law and Order_ spinoffs as being "too much order, and not enough law". "Spinoffs" isn't the right word, I suppose. NBC has referred to the other Law and Order series as "franchises" in commercials. SignatureSalvatore Volatile Richard Fontana: > Agreed. I recall my father criticizing one of the _Law and Order_ > spinoffs as being "too much order, and not enough law". > > "Spinoffs" isn't the right word, I suppose. It is by me. > NBC has referred to the other Law and Order series as "franchises" > in commercials. Really! If I used "franchise", I'd use it to refer to the the whole group of series taken together. I wish "series" hadn't kept its 5th declension plural in English. It's confusing to have to spell it the same as the singular, and it comes up more often than sheep. SignatureMark Brader "They are taking to the new methods Toronto like a duck takes to stock trading." msb@vex.net --Mark Leeper My text in this article is in the public domain. > Richard Fontana: >> Agreed. I recall my father criticizing one of the _Law and Order_ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > It is by me. Upon further reflection, I agree with you there. I think each of the serieses has points of continuity with all the others, or at least the original (e.g., Donald Cragen, Det. Logan, the Tennessee senator who plays the D.A., some of the ADAs). By contrast, _CSI Miami_ and _CSI New York_ do not seem to me to be spinoffs of _CSI_. SignatureSalvatore Volatile [...] > Really! If I used "franchise", I'd use it to refer to the the whole > group of series taken together. > > I wish "series" hadn't kept its 5th declension plural in English. > It's confusing to have to spell it the same as the singular, and it > comes up more often than sheep. It's perhaps strange that no vernacular singular has developed: in the horticultural trade "specie" is not uncommon, I'm sad to report. Chaucer tried "serye", but it doesn't seem to have caught on. Following the Moylan "minisery" principle, a case could be made for "sery". On "specie": OED lists it, but with the note that it's now obsolete except as an error. But I don't understand why they don't regard _all_ their examples as errors: how could it suddenly have become wrong? (I'm not talking about the various uses of "in specie", which is, of course, different.) SignatureMike. > [re NBC's _Law and Order_] > > It always seems to me that, while they had to do it that way because [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Agreed. I recall my father criticizing one of the _Law and Order_ > spinoffs as being "too much order, and not enough law". "Arrest and Trial" would work better. I was going to write that Dick Wolf (producer of all the L&O shows) might have chosen it for his original had it no already been used for a show in the Sixties <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0056737/>, but when I looked up that show I discovered that Wolf had used the title for yet another show of his, which lasted only a short while <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0260598/>. I suppose it's too late to change to "Order and Law." SignatureBob Lieblich Law at attorney Mark Brader (about "Law & Order" and its opening credits): >>> It always seems to me that, while they had to do it that way because >>> of the show's structure and the word order of the phrase, it's actually >>> backwards. Police do order; courts do law. Bob Lieblich: > "Arrest and Trial" would work better. I was going to write that Dick > Wolf (producer of all the L&O shows) might have chosen it for his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > which lasted only a short while > <http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0260598/>. In fact both of these shows also followed a format where the first half featured the police investigation and the second half the court case. The earlier one (spelled with "and") had 90-minute episodes and told fictional stories, while the later one (with "&") did true crimes and was 30 minutes long. I haven't seen either one myself. > I suppose it's too late to change to "Order and Law." Chuo! SignatureMark Brader "This must be a serious issue! Toronto It's spawned a new interjection!" msb@vex.net --Steve Summit My text in this article is in the public domain. Mark Brader filted: >It always seems to me that, while they had to do it that way because >of the show's structure and the word order of the phrase, it's actually >backwards. Police do order; courts do law. My mother was allatime telling me to "put on your shoes and socks" when I got dressed for school....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > backwards. Police do order; courts do law. I'd have said Parliament makes law; the courts mangle it; the police apply it in a random manner. SignatureRob Bannister > Following recent civil unrest in Tonga, a newscaster describing events > said: > > "Law and (pause, shuffling papers noise) order" has been restored. On another note, I heard a newsreader say that Shaun Tait was hopeful of being fit for the First Test after recovering from the persistent crapping he suffered from the day before. I thought that only happened on tours of the subcontinent. (He meant 'cramping' but didn't pronounce the 'm'. You could hear a slight pause as he realised what he'd said, but he didn't correct himself.) -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > > Following recent civil unrest in Tonga, a newscaster describing events > > said: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > crapping he suffered from the day before. I thought that only happened > on tours of the subcontinent. Oh dear. There are few things worse than a bowler getting hit with the runs. > (He meant 'cramping' but didn't pronounce the 'm'. You could hear a > slight pause as he realised what he'd said, but he didn't correct > himself.) Ouch. TOF |
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