Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006

In general, when two nationalities are hyphenated, the first indicates
ancestry, and the second indicates citizenship.  So we have
African-Americans, Japanese-Americans, Chinese-Americans,
Russian-Americans, and Swedish-Americans, along with a bunch of us
Unhyphenated-Americans.

Or maybe the term can mean something else, in which case my grandson
could be considered an African-American, because he was born in Zambia
of American parents.

[...]

Some caution may be warranted in regard to Russian aristocrats'
foreign languages. Admittedly, there can be no doubt about
Vladimir Nabokov, who came from an old aristocratic St.
Petersburg family all of whose members were well known for their
Anglophilia and ability to speak English well, but Anglophilia
and Anglophobia alternated in Russian history, with an
interchanging impact on the English language in Russian high
society. Anglophilia was promoted, for example, when Catherine
the Great sent Russian naval cadets to be trained by the British
fleet. Yekaterina Dashkova, a well-known favorite of
Catherine's, once said: "Why wasn't I born an Englishwoman? How
I adore the freedom and spirit of that country!" There was also
a time when many members of the Duma in St. Petersburg were
Anglophiles, and Anglophiles could also be encountered among
aristocrats in other parts of the country, but criticism of such
attitudes by some Russian intellectuals, aristocrats themselves,
was fierce. For example, words by Prince Vladimir Odoevsky
(1804-1869), a Russian thinker and writer, were typical. He
wrote that the history of England was a lesson to peoples "who
sell their souls for money." That was said before the heyday of
the Slavophiles, who scourged aristocrats' penchant for foreign
ways, and even before the Crimean War in 1854, an absolute low
point of the popularity of England and English in Russia.

The main foreign language among the Russian aristocracy for a
very long time was French, with no serious rivals, although
German as the language of Germany's educators, thinkers and
poets was also popular as a second foreign language for a while.
French, however, was never seriously challenged, and some
Russian aristocrats were even convinced that the culture and
language of France were superior to their own, bragging about
how French was their native language and how difficult it was
for them to speak Russian to their servants; therefore, a
reading knowledge of French is essential for him who would study
the originals of aristocrats' letters and diaries written in
French. The last tsar's wife, Alexandra, who grew up in England,
preferred speaking English because her knowledge of Russian was
poor, but Lev Tolstoy's wife, Sophia Behrs, who grew up in the
Kremlin in Moscow, records in her diaries that she spoke French,
not English, to Alexandra when the two once met for a long
conversation. A typical story for one on a search for accounts
of how fluently Russian aristocrats actually spoke English. That
some of them were able to read it well is indisputable.

Regards, ----- WB.

"Russian-American" (or "half-Russian-American" to be more precise) seems
legitimate to me, though I might want to limit that to those who are
raised in some sort of recognized Russian immigrant community, or the
generationally-proximate descendants thereof, and I'm not clear on whether
your DIL ever spent time in such a community.

Fair enough, Coop, but I don't think that's how most AmE speakers use
"-American".  Indeed, those who are born in the other country tend *not*
to get the hyphenated American status.  "Italian-American", for example,
typically does not refer to Italian immigrants, but to their
American-born children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren.  

Both.  The question is relevant to /Pale Fire/ because... well, it's
complicated, but when one character (Kinbote) describes another that
way, it might make a difference whether the character described could
be an immigrant.

On the other hand (and in line with something Buckingham Sober
mentioned), Kinbote isn't a native speaker of English, so he could make
a subtle error.  But I still wanted to get opinions from native
speakers.

...

How I'd describe them isn't the subject I wanted to discuss, but I
could say they're Americans of some Russian descent, or phrase it in
various other ways.  Another interesting question is how I'd describe
your "Russian DIL".  I don't think I'd say, "an American of Russian
descent", but I wanted to get other opinions.

I don't think it can be hard and fast, but must depend on the context
or the situation. I had one Sicilian grandfather, so it's hard for me
to think of a situation in which it would mean anything useful to
describe me as "an Australian of Sicilian descent", but I wouldn't
completely discount the possibility. On reflection, I believe (maybe
wrongly) it could help qualify me for Italian citizenship; that would
be meaningful.

[...]

I would even rule out the "had become". If he was born in Russia and
subsequently became American, the quoted phrase would be a very clunky
way to say "a Russian-born American".

In the more likely case that he was born American, it doesn't matter how
many generations you need to go back to find his Russian ancestors,
provided that the majority of those ancestors were themselves Russian or
of Russian descent. Having one Sicilian grandparent isn't sufficient to
say "of Sicilian descent", unless you describe the mixture.

I call myself an Australian of mixed Irish/Scottish descent, even though
I have to go back as far as great-grandparents to find anyone not born
in Australia. Actually, there's someone in the tree who was from
England, about four or five generations back, but I try not to mention
that. If I did feel the need to mention it, I would add "with a slight
admixture of English".

You would be alone in that interpetation as the descent is to him and not
from him.
One descends from ones ancestors.
My fathers family came in 1800 all the reletives on his side have Irish
family names, Kehoe, Cahoon and such.
Mother's in 1916, all hers have Irish surnames. O'Brien, O'Donovan, Shanahan
and such. So I would say I'm of Irish descent{or ancestry}.

I've never heard "ascent" used with this meaning. It's always "descent".

Not to me.

I'm not sure about that.  Don't let Coop fool you.

I'd call Tootsie a Tennessee-American and Erk a Chi-American.  Actually,
Erk is a Chicago-born Peninsular American.  

I think that's right.

I'm becoming very confused.  I wasn't an American when I was born (in
Latvia), which is something that "Latvian-born American" could be taken to
mean.  My ancestry is Latvian, Swedish (a tiny bit), and Hungarian Gypsy (a
minuscule bit).  Yes, I am a naturalized American citizen now, but as far as
I'm concerned, I am pretty much still a Latvian.