You may/can be sure, sir

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Marius Hancu - 20 Nov 2006 06:44 GMT

Hello:

Are:
"You may be sure"
"You can be sure"
equally justified in the following contexts (the 2nd one is BrE)?

BTW, "You MAY be sure, SIR" version is 3 times more frequent (at Yahoo).

Any slight differences in meaning?

-----
[Newland Archer talking to his law firm boss:]

"You may be sure, sir, that I shan't commit myself till I've reported
to you; what I meant was that I'd rather not give an opinion till I've
heard what Madame Olenska has to say."

Edith Wharton, Age of Innocence, p. 112
http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/541/54.html
-----

-----
Mr. Boateng: Whenever, in the course of our deliberations, I promise
to enter into a correspondence--I hope that it will not be often--you
can be sure, Sir Nicholas, that it will be completed before our
discussions on Report. I know that you would not have it any other
way.

House of Commons Standing Committee B (pt 2)
http://tinyurl.com/ygeq5a
-----

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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Derek Turner - 20 Nov 2006 13:27 GMT

> Hello:
>
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> Thanks.
> Marius Hancu

Strictly speaking 'may' means you have permission and 'can' means that
it is something you are physically/mentally able to do.

Child: Can I go to the toilet please?
Teacher (correcting the child): You may.

Providing the child is mobile and has a working sphincter then /of
course/ she can go to the toilet. Whether or not she has the teacher's
permission to leave the classroom is another matter.

However, I'm afraid it's a losing battle and so 'can' is increasingly
being used where 'may' would be more appropriate. My guess is that 'you
can be sure' references are more prevalent post 1950 than before.

You may be sure = you have my permission to expect this of me (=I promise)

You can be sure = ?? you have the mental faculties to decide this for
yourself?

Similarly,
Wife: Can you make me a cup of tea?
Me: I course I can, the question is 'Will I?' <ducks thrown book>

Reply to this Message

Marius Hancu - 20 Nov 2006 13:38 GMT

> Strictly speaking 'may' means you have permission and 'can' means that
> it is something you are physically/mentally able to do.

Yes.

> However, I'm afraid it's a losing battle and so 'can' is increasingly
> being used where 'may' would be more appropriate.

I fully agree, and this is one of the reasons I've posted this, to
sample the opinions of others on this change.

> You may be sure = you have my permission to expect this of me (=I promise)
>
> You can be sure = ?? you have the mental faculties to decide this for
> yourself?

This is how I am reading them, including the ??:-)

Thanks.
Marius Hancu

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Michael Hamm - 20 Nov 2006 17:18 GMT

> > Are:
> > "You may be sure"
> > "You can be sure"
> > equally justified in the following contexts

<snip>

> Strictly speaking 'may' means you have permission and 'can' means that
> it is something you are physically/mentally able to do.

<snip>

> However, I'm afraid it's a losing battle and so 'can' is increasingly
> being used where 'may' would be more appropriate.

I agree with the foregoing.

> You may be sure = you have my permission to expect this of me (=I
> promise)
>
> You can be sure = ?? you have the mental faculties to decide this for
> yourself?

I disagree. "You may be sure" should mean[1] that the person has
permission to be sure, which is nonsense except in a thought-police state.
"You can be sure that foo", otoh, should mean[1] that the person has the
ability to be sure that foo -- because foo is, one assures him, true.

Nonetheless, "you may be sure" has certainly been more common, and, I
think, still is.

[1] Whatever "should mean" means.

Michael Hamm
AM, Math, Wash. U. St. Louis
msh210@math.wustl.edu Fine print:
http://www.math.wustl.edu/~msh210/ ... legal.html

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Eric Walker - 21 Nov 2006 03:40 GMT

> Are:
> "You may be sure"
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Any slight differences in meaning?

"Can", of course, signifies actual ability. "May", in these sorts of
constructions, signifies (I quote my trusty desk dictionary)
"contingency, as in clauses of purpose, result, concession, or
condition [they died that we may be free]." So in a practical sense,
the two are identical, each promising assurance of the point in
question. It's really a matter of euphony or style--that is,
taste--which to use.

(That is AmEn; if there is a difference in BrEn, I would be surprised
to haer of it.)

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006

You may/can be sure, sir