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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Five little etymologies and how they grew
Okay, not five, just one.... Used the word "watershed" in front of a cow orker this morning and he brought up an interesting question...we know that the literal meaning is "all the land drained by a system of streams and rivers", but how did the same word acquire the metaphorical meaning of "turning point"?...r  Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >Okay, not five, just one.... > >Used the word "watershed" in front of a cow orker this morning and he brought up >an interesting question...we know that the literal meaning is "all the land >drained by a system of streams and rivers", but how did the same word acquire >the metaphorical meaning of "turning point"?...r I suppose I could try to look this up, but instead I'll guess - if nothing else, I can invent a new folk etymology to mess things up in the future. I'd think it went: 1: Watershed means the area drained 2: Hmm, it sheds the water, so it must be the high bit. Aha, a watershed is the division between two drainage systems 3: So when I walk from sea to sea I cross a watershed 4: So metaphorically crossing a watershed is moving from one area to another 5: So a major change or turning point is a watershed. It's also the term used in the UK for a time in the evening after which children can be assumed to not be watching television. This seems to me to follow the same line of reasoning to step 4. SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon > >Okay, not five, just one.... > > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > me to follow the same line of reasoning to step 4. > -- Aye, to all of the above. I find from OED that Longfellow seems to have got to the metaphor first, followed by Burton: <1878 LONGFELLOW K?ramos i. 87 Midnight! the outpost of advancing day!.. The watershed of Time, from which the streams of Yesterday and To-morrow take their way. 1884 R. F. BURTON Bk. Sword viii. 150 note, Hence, too, the superficial observation that the Afghans..are Jews because they have the typical Jewish look. The reason is that they are derived from the same ethnic centre, a great watershed of race. > I wonder if geographical terms got popular as a result of the 19C rush of explorations and their accompanying books and public lectures? I was delighted to find that Molesworth wasn't too far out in his geography exam: there really can be a water-shed which is a shed with water in it: Water-shed 2 rare. < A shed used as a wash-house. 1859 JEPHSON & REEVE Brittany 168 In a water-shed at the end are two women washing.> Time to revive Matti Lamprhey's (say, . .) "watershed route" theory -- IIRC, that it must be possible to cross any body of land bounded by sea without at any point leaving a watershed. SignatureMike. On 20 Nov 2006, Mike Lyle wrote >>> Okay, not five, just one.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Aye, to all of the above. I'm positive that the "dividing line" meaning is the earlier, and "catchment area" is the later -- in other words, your quote from Longfellow (which I've rudely snipped) uses the original meaning rather than a metaphorically extended one. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > Aye, to all of the above. I find from OED that Longfellow seems to have > got to the metaphor first, followed by Burton: > <1878 LONGFELLOW Kéramos i. 87 Midnight! the outpost of advancing > day!.. The watershed of Time, from which the streams of Yesterday and > To-morrow take their way. 1884 R. F. BURTON Bk. Sword viii. 150 note, The excerpt below from 1854 seems to use "watershed" in a metaphorical sense before Longfellow in the OED cite: http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer-idx?c=moajrnl;cc=moajrnl;g=moagrp ;xc=1;q1=watershed;rgn=full%20text;idno=acf4325.1-26.004;didno=acf4325.1-26.004; node=acf4325.1-26.004%3A1;view=image;seq=0614 ...Two facts we must observe: History, like the sun, the history of the world and of the Church, moves westward; and India is not, as we are accustomed to think and say in our Europe-inherited modes of speech, East, but West of us. The distance from our ports on the Pacific to Calcutta is scarce half of that travelled over in our usual circuitous route eastward. In our position, on the true watershed of nations and of history, we may in truth exclaim, India is west of us; and thitherward the course of history is pointing.... Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego On 20 Nov 2006, Nick Atty wrote >> Okay, not five, just one.... >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > 2: Hmm, it sheds the water, so it must be the high bit. Aha, a > watershed is the division between two drainage systems Other way around, I believe you'll find. The watershed was originally the dividing line, or ridge, where rivers flowed in different directions. The "area drained" followed afterwards, by extension. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van On 20 Nov 2006, R H Draney wrote > Okay, not five, just one.... > > Used the word "watershed" in front of a cow orker this morning > and he brought up an interesting question...we know that the > literal meaning is "all the land drained by a system of streams > and rivers", That's the later meaning. First meaning was the ridge which divides the fall of the rivers. > but how did the same word acquire the metaphorical > meaning of "turning point"?...r 'Cause that's the older meaning. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >On 20 Nov 2006, R H Draney wrote > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >That's the later meaning. First meaning was the ridge which divides >the fall of the rivers. That's what I thought it still meant -- the divding line between two basins, where it rainfall is shed either to one side or the other. Don't they use "basin" in AmE? SignatureBrad Germolene Brad Germolene filted: >Don't they use "basin" in AmE? Snarky answer: we call them "buffalo".... Serious answer: the geographic term "basin" tends to refer to a *closed* drainage area...the ones that slough off into the sea don't fit the imagery....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. On 20 Nov 2006, R H Draney wrote > Brad Germolene filted: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > *closed* drainage area...the ones that slough off into the sea > don't fit the imagery....r It's been over 30 years, but I think in my geomorph-studying days the terms were "watershed" for the divide and "catchment area" for the basin. ("Basin" doesn't sound right as the specific term for rivers: it obviously applies to any basin-shaped feature, not just ones relating to rivers.) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van } Brad Germolene filted: }> }>Don't they use "basin" in AmE? } } Snarky answer: we call them "buffalo".... } } Serious answer: the geographic term "basin" tends to refer to a *closed* } drainage area...the ones that slough off into the sea don't fit the imagery....r So, for instance, the term "Amazon River Basin" wouldn't be googlaceous? Signaturerjv > That's what I thought it still meant -- the divding line between two > basins, where it rainfall is shed either to one side or the other. > Don't they use "basin" in AmE? Sometimes, but not enough. "Watershed" in the U.S. these days almost always means basin. This has been going on for a long time, on both sides of the Atlantic. Fowler complained about it in MEU, to no avail. "Watershed" is a skunked word, whose proper meaning survives mainly in the metaphor. My advice, if anybody wanted it, would be to give it a rest. The way is clear: use "divide" for the original meaning, and "basin" for the degenerate one. Those are words that most people have heard in the senses required, and that everyone has heard in a near enough sense to guess the meaning if required. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Piracy, n.: Commerce without its follyswaddles, just as God :|| ||: made it. :|| >This has been going on for a long time, on both sides of the >Atlantic. Fowler complained about it in MEU, to no avail. > >"Watershed" is a skunked word, whose proper meaning survives mainly in >the metaphor. In BrE it's settled down to the "dividing-line" sense, both literally and metaphorically. I've never heard the "basin" sense here. David >On 20 Nov 2006, R H Draney wrote > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >'Cause that's the older meaning. Oh good. 'cause that's the way I usually use it. One of the things that I amuse myself by when cruising round the canals is working out when we cross a watershed. SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon Nick Atty wrote, in <3354m2tvjrl6vibar1r6sjmubq6jth7aio@4ax.com> on Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:48:07 +0000: > >On 20 Nov 2006, R H Draney wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > that I amuse myself by when cruising round the canals is working out > when we cross a watershed. That's easy, it's when the locks start pointing the other way! SignatureNick Spalding >Nick Atty wrote, in <3354m2tvjrl6vibar1r6sjmubq6jth7aio@4ax.com> > on Mon, 20 Nov 2006 20:48:07 +0000: [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >That's easy, it's when the locks start pointing the other way! Not necessarily. Sometimes you go down one side of a river valley and then up the other! So it's only when they change And, pedantically, even that isn't true: One of many examples: If you come up the Coventry Canal to Fradley junction (ascending Atherstone Locks), then turn right towards Burton and descending the locks at the junction you remain in the Trent catchement area. Which is why working it out as you go along is fun (FSVOfun). SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon > Okay, not five, just one.... > > Used the word "watershed" in front of a cow orker this morning and he brought up > an interesting question...we know that the literal meaning is "all the land > drained by a system of streams and rivers", but how did the same word acquire > the metaphorical meaning of "turning point"?...r You are in a region where all the rivers drain more or less towards the East. As you cross the mountains, you find they now all drain westwards because you are in a new watershed. Really, "a divide" could be a better word. SignatureRob Bannister >> Okay, not five, just one.... >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > because you are in a new watershed. Really, "a divide" could be a better > word. I was wrong. "Watershed" is the dividing line. The other thing is the catchment area. SignatureRob Bannister >>> Okay, not five, just one.... >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >I was wrong. "Watershed" is the dividing line. The other thing is the >catchment area. Ach. And you were doing so well. A watershed is the "catchment area", so to speak. See, e.g., http://cfpub.epa.gov/surf/huc.cfm?huc_code=15070102 for a map of a watershed. See also http://www.epa.gov/owow/ where it states, "We all live in a watershed -- the area that drains to a common waterway, ..." I do see though that dictionary.reference.com says: 1. Chiefly British. the ridge or crest line dividing two drainage areas; water parting; divide. 2. the region or area drained by a river, stream, etc.; drainage area. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Hatunen filted: >>I was wrong. "Watershed" is the dividing line. The other thing is the >>catchment area. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >2. the region or area drained by a river, stream, etc.; >drainage area. As is especially appropriate for this word, other comments in this thread have shown its definition to be Pondial....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >> Okay, not five, just one.... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >because you are in a new watershed. Really, "a divide" could be a better >word. Not just the better word, but the correct word. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>You are in a region where all the rivers drain more or less towards the >>East. As you cross the mountains, you find they now all drain westwards >>because you are in a new watershed. Really, "a divide" could be a better >>word. > >Not just the better word, but the correct word. Divide, perhaps because of the way it conjures up the Great Divide, feels a bit too impressive a word to me for some of the more minor watersheds you get within a small island like Great Britain. SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon >>>You are in a region where all the rivers drain more or less towards the >>>East. As you cross the mountains, you find they now all drain westwards [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >feels a bit too impressive a word to me for some of the more minor >watersheds you get within a small island like Great Britain. That's a bit like sayign the thirty foot leafy thing in my front yard isn't a tree, because a tree is something like a California redwood. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * >>>>You are in a region where all the rivers drain more or less towards the >>>>East. As you cross the mountains, you find they now all drain westwards [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >yard isn't a tree, because a tree is something like a California >redwood. Not quite. If you'd never called it a tree, and had only heard "tree" applied to redwoods it would be a closer analogy. SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon Nick Atty: >> Divide, perhaps because of the way it conjures up the Great Divide, >> feels a bit too impressive a word to me for some of the more minor >> watersheds you get within a small island like Great Britain. Dave Hatunen: > That's a bit like sayign the thirty foot leafy thing in my front > yard isn't a tree, because a tree is something like a California > redwood. Or else it's a bit like Crocodile Dundee saying "That's not a knife", drawing his own, and continuing with "; THAT'S a knife." SignatureMark Brader "You can stop laughing now. Toronto Well, maybe you *can't*, but you *may*." msb@vex.net -- Rick Burger >Nick Atty: >>> Divide, perhaps because of the way it conjures up the Great Divide, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Or else it's a bit like Crocodile Dundee saying "That's not a knife", >drawing his own, and continuing with "; THAT'S a knife." I like yours better than mine. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * Dave Hatunen: >>> That's a bit like sayign the thirty foot leafy thing in my front >>> yard isn't a tree, because a tree is something like a California >>> redwood. Mark Brader: >> Or else it's a bit like Crocodile Dundee saying "That's not a knife", >> drawing his own, and continuing with "; THAT'S a knife." Dave Hatunen: > I like yours better than mine. "That's not a simile -- THAT'S a simile"? SignatureMark Brader | "I don't have to stay here to be insulted." Toronto | "I realize that. You're insulted everywhere, I imagine." msb@vex.net | -- Theodore Sturgeon >Divide, perhaps because of the way it conjures up the Great Divide, >feels a bit too impressive a word to me for some of the more minor >watersheds you get within a small island like Great Britain. We generally don't talk about "divides" here on the eastern coast of leftpondia, but "watershed" still has the US-standard meaning. My state (which is quite a bit smaller than Britain) includes parts of twenty-seven watersheds (according to the state government) or perhaps eighteen (according the federal government). -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>Divide, perhaps because of the way it conjures up the Great Divide, >>feels a bit too impressive a word to me for some of the more minor [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >twenty-seven watersheds (according to the state government) or perhaps >eighteen (according the federal government). It depends on context, though. You might be talking about the Mississippi watershed, a huge area stretching from the Rocky Mountains to the Appalachians, and from Canada to the Gulf of Mexico. Or you could be talking about the Ohio River watershed, which is part of the Mississippi watershed. Or the smaller Kentucky River watershed, which is part of the Ohio River watershed. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * > Okay, not five, just one.... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > acquire > the metaphorical meaning of "turning point"?...r Allow me to confirm that in BrE "watershed" is normally used for drainage divide and "catchment" for the, er, catchment area of a drainage system. In climatological, hydrological, hyetological, geomorphological and geographical studies, at least in the UK, these are as far as I know exclusive usages. I suspect we've many times been here before. Philip Eden >> Okay, not five, just one.... >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >I suspect we've many times been here before. And will likely return in future. ************* DAVE HATUNEN (hatunen@cox.net) ************* * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow * * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps * |
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