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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006choose
---------Sorry,we are late. We ____ the wrong bus, A took B had taken My teacher told me "if something has effects you should use have done". So I choose B, But the right answer is A. > ---------Sorry,we are late. We ____ the wrong bus, > A took B had taken > > My teacher told me "if something has effects you should use have > done". So I choose B, > But the right answer is A. This is simply a question of applying the right "rule of thumb". In this case, it's the sequence of tenses rule that says use the simple past for an event that precedes the present tense event (the apology for being late): we ARE late because we TOOK the wrong bus. Even if the apology begins with "I'm sorry that we WERE late", the verb still has to be simple past" "We TOOK the wrong bus."  SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >> ---------Sorry,we are late. We ____ the wrong bus, >> A took B had taken [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the apology begins with "I'm sorry that we WERE late", the verb still > has to be simple past" "We TOOK the wrong bus." It is also possible that B could be used if there was a bit more involved in the context (noting that the question had a comma after 'bus', implying that something had been omitted). For example: Sorry, we are late. We had taken the wrong bus, so by the time we eventually got to town the train had left, and we ended up having to hire a car to get here. I mention that because it fits with what Cheche's teacher said, in that the effect of taking the wrong bus is carried forward to the next time in the sequence (as the cause of missing the train). But this sequence of tenses stuff can get very complicated, and it would be hard to specify any rules that would be always applicable. -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > dontbother wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > time we eventually got to town the train had left, > and we ended up having to hire a car to get here. Yes, that's possible, but because it's not there, asking for an answer that assumes it's there is both inane and absurd. Cheche is a student of English, not a sophisticated speaker and writer of the language who can imagine such complex scenarios in English. I submit that to expect someone at cheche's level to imagine what you wrote makes the teacher seem unqualified to teach. > I mention that because it fits with what Cheche's teacher said, > in that the effect of taking the wrong bus is carried forward to > the next time in the sequence (as the cause of missing the > train). But this sequence of tenses stuff can get very > complicated, and it would be hard to specify any rules that > would be always applicable. Yes, well you and I can figure this kind of thing out and present such scenarios, but cheche can't. I don't see the point of teaching a rule without a context that supports it. And what looks like a comma to you, looks like a typo to me. Notice that the comma after "Sorry" has no space after it; another typo. I never trust the typing of EFL students who post here. In addition, it would be stereotypical for a native speaker of Chinese to say and write "Sorry, we are late. We had taken the wrong bus." I just corrected a few of those specific tense-errors in papers written by a couple of MDs and medical PhDs. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." [Far-fetched explanation snipped] > Yes, that's possible, but because it's not there, asking for an > answer that assumes it's there is both inane and absurd. Cheche is > a student of English, not a sophisticated speaker and writer of the > language who can imagine such complex scenarios in English. I > submit that to expect someone at cheche's level to imagine what you > wrote makes the teacher seem unqualified to teach. Well written, sir. I must say that I cringe when I read some of our efforts to explain why one of the wrong answers could (conceivably, by some stretching of logic etc) be made to fit. It would be more helpful to concentrate on why the obvious right answer is right. Jonathan Jonathan Morton <jonathan@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> wrote > [Far-fetched explanation snipped] > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > It would be more helpful to concentrate on why the obvious right > answer is right. I so totally agree. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >> dontbother wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > submit that to expect someone at cheche's level to imagine what you > wrote makes the teacher seem unqualified to teach. Yes, you were trying to keep it simple, but you had only half-answered the question. Cheche wants to know why B is incorrect *despite* the fact that it seems to fit with something the teacher had said. I gave an example of the kind of context that would be required to make B correct, in an effort to answer that aspect. As far as I can see, it would only sound natural in a more complex chain of events. The effect of event A persists to time B, which is now viewed from time C, or something of that sort. >> I mention that because it fits with what Cheche's teacher said, >> in that the effect of taking the wrong bus is carried forward to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yes, well you and I can figure this kind of thing out and present > such scenarios, but cheche can't. How do you know? Perhaps Cheche won't fully understand all the subtleties yet, but he/she has a right to know that there are situations in which the other tense/aspect would be used. That often helps to stimulate a learner's curiosity to go to the next level. And it probably won't help Cheche in the longer term if we give too strong an impression that the teacher is totally wrong. The teacher's advice above is certainly applicable in some circumstances: I ate dinner (stresses an event that happened at a particular time). I have eaten dinner (stresses the continuing effect, that I am not hungry now). -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au > dontbother wrote: >>> dontbother wrote: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Yes, you were trying to keep it simple, but you had only > half-answered the question. No, I answered the question. Cheche didn't ask about a more complex situation. Providing the complex answer is like telling a youngster all about the birds and the bees when a simple answer to the question "Where do babies come from?" will suffice. When one doesn't know much about a topic, the right questions don't come and the full answer is pointless. > Cheche wants to know why B is incorrect *despite* the fact that > it seems to fit with something the teacher had said. I gave [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > How do you know? Because Cheche asked why B wasn't the correct answer. That ought to be obvious. Anyone who could figure it out wouldn't have had to ask why. I said Cheche "can't", not that Cheche "never will be able to". > Perhaps Cheche won't fully understand all the > subtleties yet, but he/she has a right to know that there are > situations in which the other tense/aspect would be used. "Has a right to know"? That ramps up the discussion to what I consider an unacceptable political level. While I will agree that all students of a foreign language ought to be told that once they've mastered the rather simplified basics of the target language's grammar, structure, and usage, they will encounter a host of exceptions and flat-out contradictions of the simplified "rules" they learned at the beginning, I point this kind of thing out not by giving them examples beyond their ken, but by pointing to their own native language as a source of the same kinds of linguistic realities. Language teachers may have an obligation to explain that natural languages are filled with contradictions and exceptions, but students ought to know that from their native knowledge of their own mother tongues. > That often helps to stimulate a learner's curiosity to go > to the next level. Yes, but your example was many levels above Cheche's head, I fear. Most contemporary "educated" native speakers of English can't use, much less understand, the sequence of tenses rules (e.g., "if I wouldn't have done that,...") > And it probably won't help Cheche in the longer term if we give > too strong an impression that the teacher is totally wrong. Who said that the teacher was totally wrong? The best of teachers may be a lousy test maker. A student at my university came into the English office this afternoon to ask me about his answers to a question his English teacher had marked wrong on the mid-term exam last week. It was a perplexing question. My conclusion was that the question was seriously flawed because the teacher hadn't understood the real possibilities implied by his language. The student saw what the teacher did not see. I saw what neither of them saw: the question had no correct answer. > The teacher's advice above is certainly applicable > in some circumstances: > I ate dinner (stresses an event that happened at a > particular time). I have eaten dinner (stresses the > continuing effect, that I am not hungry now). Yes, but that's not analogous to "I ate dinner" versus "I had eaten dinner". Two different aspects of the past, and as in the example in the original post, the simple past and the past perfect cannot be substituted for each other in this case. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." |
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