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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006Ring Of Truth
I know what the expression means. I am interested in knowing how it came to be. What does the word 'ring' in any of its various meanings have to do with 'the truth'? On 27 Nov 2006, Sathyaish wrote > I know what the expression means. I am interested in knowing how > it came to be. What does the word 'ring' in any of its various > meanings have to do with 'the truth'? I've always assumed it's an analogy with bells -- they "ring true" if they're cast properly.  SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 27 Nov 2006, Sathyaish wrote > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've always assumed it's an analogy with bells -- they "ring true" if > they're cast properly. Or any metal which is tested by striking or dropping - I believe coins were tested at the mint by dropping them on a hard surface to see if they would "ring true". And, of course, we have the opposite in anything that "rings false" or "rings hollow" The tested chain holds fast, The well-forged link rings true! SignatureJohn Dean Oxford Thanks very much. The argument about the sound made by dropping a coin is particularly interesting. Regards, Sathyaish > > On 27 Nov 2006, Sathyaish wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The tested chain holds fast, The well-forged link rings true! > Thanks very much. The argument about the sound made by dropping a coin > is particularly interesting. Please don't top-post. Your replies belong following or interspersed with properly trimmed quotes. See the majority of other posts in the newsgroup, or: <http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html> Brian John Dean <john-dean@fraglineone.net> had it: > > On 27 Nov 2006, Sathyaish wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > The tested chain holds fast, The well-forged link rings true! Go on John, you didn't mention the Amalgamated Union of Wheel Tappers and Shunters. Wheel tappers were employed to hit the iron wheels of steam locomotives with a dirty great hammer and to listen to the resulting ring to check if there were any cracks in it. SignatureDavid ===== >Wheel tappers were employed to hit the iron wheels of steam >locomotives with a dirty great hammer and to listen to the resulting >ring to check if there were any cracks in it. They also tapped the wheels on all carriages, etc. of the train. I was once in a stationary train when two of these percussionists went tapping their way along the train, one each side. Before that, I'd assumed that the tapping was done before or after a journey. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Are you guys poking fun at my inquisition? How could someone tap the wheels of a running train? > >Wheel tappers were employed to hit the iron wheels of steam > >locomotives with a dirty great hammer and to listen to the resulting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Before that, I'd assumed that the tapping was done before or after a > journey. Sathyaish <sathyaish@gmail.com> had it: > Are you guys poking fun at my inquisition? How could someone tap the > wheels of a running train? No, certainly not. The train would always be stationary. Peter explicitly mentioned this, and it didn't occur to me that anybody might think it was moving. Did you have a reason for "inquisition"? It's a very strong word for a process of formalised or aggressive questioning and not in normal daily use. I would replace it with the simple "question". And although "running" is just about OK, it's not the normal word I would choose. "moving" is much better. SignatureDavid ===== The word 'question' could've served well as a substitute. I think it's just a matter of taste, and of moods as well. > Sathyaish <sathyaish@gmail.com> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > And although "running" is just about OK, it's not the normal word I > would choose. "moving" is much better. The Sathyaish entity posted thusly: >The word 'question' could've served well as a substitute. I think it's >just a matter of taste, and of moods as well. It _should_ be a matter of clarity of communication. "Inquisition" is just not the right term. On 27 Nov 2006, Oleg Lego wrote > The Sathyaish entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It _should_ be a matter of clarity of communication. > "Inquisition" is just not the right term. Agreed -- all inquisitions are inquiries, but not all inquiries are inquisitions. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >On 27 Nov 2006, Oleg Lego wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Agreed -- all inquisitions are inquiries, but not all inquiries are >inquisitions. I didn't expect that. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL On 27 Nov 2006, Tony Cooper wrote >> On 27 Nov 2006, Oleg Lego wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I didn't expect that. Nooooobody expects th..........ah, I can't be bothered..... SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 27 Nov 2006, Tony Cooper wrote > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Nooooobody expects th..........ah, I can't be bothered..... ObAUE: Nobody expects the Anglican Inquisistion! SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >> On 27 Nov 2006, Oleg Lego wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I didn't expect that. Olé! SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>On 27 Nov 2006, Oleg Lego wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Olé! <cross (in more than one sense) alert>Is that Spanish for "Boom, boom!"? SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > The Sathyaish entity posted thusly: >> The word 'question' could've served well as a substitute. I think >> it's just a matter of taste, and of moods as well. > > It _should_ be a matter of clarity of communication. "Inquisition" is > just not the right term. Nobody expects the ... SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ >The word 'question' could've served well as a substitute. I think it's >just a matter of taste, and of moods as well. No, it's not; it's the wrong word. And please don't top-post. >> Sathyaish <sathyaish@gmail.com> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> And although "running" is just about OK, it's not the normal word I >> would choose. "moving" is much better. SignatureBrad Germolene >>The word 'question' could've served well as a substitute. I think it's >>just a matter of taste, and of moods as well. > >No, it's not; it's the wrong word. I mean "inquisition" is. SignatureBrad Germolene Peter Duncanson (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <794mm21rrte0lgu63r49k4l5nf4jkgrscu@4ax.com>: >>Wheel tappers were employed to hit the iron wheels of steam >>locomotives with a dirty great hammer and to listen to the resulting [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Before that, I'd assumed that the tapping was done before or after a > journey. It might well have been, but perhaps the driver raised a query because the loco didn't seem to ring true. Presumably if a serious problem had been found the loco or carriage in question would have been detached from the train and replaced before the journey continued. That was in the good old days of course. These days the entire train is withdrawn and all the passengers turfed out to take pot luck with already-overcrowded following services. SignatureTerms and conditions apply. Batteries not included. Subject to status. Financial commitment required. Always read the label. Keep out of children. Interchange the alphabetic letter groups to reply > John Dean <john-dean@fraglineone.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > locomotives with a dirty great hammer and to listen to the resulting > ring to check if there were any cracks in it. Nor did I mention the Black Pudding Tappers and Prodders Union who were employed to check if the old boudin was fit for purpose or not. Then there was the Association of Conker Rattlers and Chippers who ensured that all was fair in the annual conker championships. And have I spoken of the Corset Twangers and Liberty Bodice Elasticisers Association? Here's a little test. Doing some noodling around Yahoo and Wikipedia, I have a list of six Unions. All existed at one time. Three still exist and are affiliated to the TUC. Three were merged into other Unions 30 or 50 years and more ago. Which is which? (All easily found in Wikipedia BTW, guessing is the hard part) Iron, Steel and Wood Barge Builders and Helpers Association Sheffield Wool Shear Workers Union National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers Association of Coastwise Masters, Mates and Engineers Card Setting Machine Tenters Society Scottish Farm Servants' Association SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean <john-dean@fraglineone.net> had it: > Here's a little test. Doing some noodling around Yahoo and Wikipedia, I have > a list of six Unions. All existed at one time. Three still exist and are > affiliated to the TUC. Three were merged into other Unions 30 or 50 years > and more ago. Which is which? (All easily found in Wikipedia BTW, guessing > is the hard part) OK, with no artificial aids whatsoever: > Iron, Steel and Wood Barge Builders and Helpers Association disappeared > Sheffield Wool Shear Workers Union disappeared > National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers exists > Association of Coastwise Masters, Mates and Engineers exists > Card Setting Machine Tenters Society disappeared > Scottish Farm Servants' Association exists SignatureDavid ===== > John Dean <john-dean@fraglineone.net> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > disappeared Yep >> Sheffield Wool Shear Workers Union > > disappeared still here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Wool_Shear_Workers_Union "The Sheffield Wool Shear Workers Union is based in Sheffield, South Yorkshire. It is listed in the Guinness Book of Records (2000 edition) as being the smallest trades union in the world with just 10 members. In its latest listing to the Trades Union Certification Officer it is down to nine members - six male and three female. The union was established in 1890 to raise funds to organise, protect and advance the trade. Other functions include legal assistance, securing better working conditions for workers and to look after elderly wool shear workers. Its sole officer today is Bob Whomersley, General Secretary, and it has its headquarters in Rotherham. In 2004 it received an income of £112.95, all of which was spent on administrative expenses. It is affiliated to the Trades Union Congress." >> National Association of Colliery Overmen, Deputies and Shotfirers > > exists Yep >> Association of Coastwise Masters, Mates and Engineers > > exists Gone gone gone - merged into the TGWU in 1925 >> Card Setting Machine Tenters Society > > disappeared Still here - based in Dewsbury >> Scottish Farm Servants' Association > > exists Nope - taken by the TGWU in 1933 Two out of six. Not bad. When I came to look at the list again I only got one out of six from memory. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean <john-dean@fraglineone.net> had it: > > OK, with no artificial aids whatsoever: > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Still here - based in Dewsbury Ah. Wife's parents live near Dewsbury - her dad is a mechanical engineer who spent most of his working life in the textile industry. I bet he knows about the Card Setting Machine Tenters Society. He's probably given me driving directions which include turning left at their headquarters (he can't refer to pubs like a normal person - he relates journeys to little-known light industrial companies *which closed in the 60s*). SignatureDavid ===== >>John Dean <john-dean@fraglineone.net> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > Two out of six. Not bad. When I came to look at the list again I only got > one out of six from memory. If you have to guess at them, it can only be random - there isn't any logical way to determine which would still be around. I knew the colliery deputies one, because of where I grew up (my brother's father-in-law was a deputy), but the others I had no idea. My father was a shop-steward in the National Society of Metal Mechanics. I think they got amalgamated into something unlikely, but I can't remember. Fran |
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