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Discussion Groups / English Usage / March 2011A ruling on Knutish please
Canute. Knut. Cnut. An ancient king of this isle remembered for lashing the waves. A lesser known feat was his digging of the "Tigris River" from Rotherhithe to Chelsea. I would like to adjectivize him. Canutish, Knutian, Cnutful. The OED gives no clue whatsoever. So to hell with them. Google centrality can be measured by querying each possibility, like "Canutian". This exercise yields raw counts but leave the googler wondering if quantity of hits is truly indicative of what's correct. But the need for adjectivizing Cnut is compelling. How can this fellow be adjectivized in a way that will not make the Times sniff in disdain? <"Gunga Din" <none>> had it: > Canute. Knut. Cnut. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > How can this fellow be adjectivized in a way that will not make the Times > sniff in disdain? Knutsfordian?  SignatureDavid ===== > <"Gunga Din" <none>> had it: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Knutsfordian? <genteel applause> SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) Peter Duncanson <mail@peterduncanson.net> had it: > > <"Gunga Din" <none>> had it: > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > <genteel applause> I thank you. I'd like to put in a plug for our neighbouring town's Official Song: "Knutsford City Limits". SignatureDavid ===== >> <"Gunga Din" <none>> had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > <genteel applause> <murmur of polite approbation> From his surname we can derive Sweynsonian SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > Canute. Knut. Cnut. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > How can this fellow be adjectivized in a way that will not make the Times > sniff in disdain? Cnutty? DC On 27 Nov 2006, Gunga Din wrote > Canute. Knut. Cnut. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I would like to adjectivize him. Canutish, Knutian, Cnutful. > The OED gives no clue whatsoever. So to hell with them. I'd go for "Cnutian". The unfortunately-anagrammatic "Cnut" seems to be the spelling I encounter most often these days in serious writing; the "-ian" suffix, to my mind, works best. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > Canute. Knut. Cnut. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > How can this fellow be adjectivized in a way that will not make the Times > sniff in disdain? I'd say "Canute-like" if you want readers to understand. OTOH, if obfuscation is a priority, you could make up your own version such as "Canutusian". SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) On 27 Nov 2006, LFS wrote >> Canute. Knut. Cnut. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I'd say "Canute-like" if you want readers to understand. That doesn't work, though, if you're naming that period or works undertaken by Cnut -- like "Elizabethan" or "Edwardian". SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 27 Nov 2006, LFS wrote > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > That doesn't work, though, if you're naming that period or works > undertaken by Cnut -- like "Elizabethan" or "Edwardian". True. We need more context, Gunga. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > True. We need more context, Gunga. Of Fiona Woolf, President of the Law Society of England and Wales... Her venomous and [**Canute**] gambit to obstruct Lord Falconer's badly need legal services reform demonstrates the extent to which one-dimensional parochialism can disrupt the constitutional process. To be sure, she is a predictable and mettlesome knee-jerk long past any reasonable sell-by date. On these grounds alone, Transpondia now advocates her ouster. Surely there's an untended garden somewhere on this island in need of parochial ministering. We hope it's cabbage, but any unsnappy veg will do... > > True. We need more context, Gunga. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > there's an untended garden somewhere on this island in need of parochial > ministering. We hope it's cabbage, but any unsnappy veg will do... Oh, well, if we must drag the maligned Cnut into it, I'm afraid it'll probably have to be plain old "Canute-like"; but a pleasing hint of rarefaction would be achieved by Harvey's "Canutian". (I take it your keyboard meant "meddlesome" up there.) SignatureMike. >> > True. We need more context, Gunga. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >rarefaction would be achieved by Harvey's "Canutian". (I take it your >keyboard meant "meddlesome" up there.) It's not a very good analogy anyway since Cnut was demonstrating to his courtiers that their flattery of him and his powers was exaggerated; he was showing he couldn't hold back the tide. (The event is supposed to have taken place here in Southampton, with its famous double tide. Cnut is 'buried' in a wooden box about twelve feet in air on a screen beside the choir in Winchester Cathedral.) Mike Page > >> > True. We need more context, Gunga. > >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > exaggerated; he was showing he couldn't hold back the tide. (The > event is supposed to have taken place here in Southampton, Are you local, then? We've just moved into a flat in Netley, about 50 yards from Southampton Water - ah the breathtaking vista (NTM the breathtaking smell) of Fawley Refinery by sunset. Word has it, the road outside floods. I may be invoking the ol' Cnutter yet... DC [...] > >Oh, well, if we must drag the maligned Cnut into it, [...] > > It's not a very good analogy anyway since Cnut was demonstrating > to his courtiers that their flattery of him and his powers was > exaggerated; [...] Hence "maligned" above: if I remember aright, Cnut was by no means a stupid anagram. (Is the anagram why the spelling "Canute" was once popular?) SignatureMike. > [...] >> >Oh, well, if we must drag the maligned Cnut into it, [...] [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > stupid anagram. (Is the anagram why the spelling "Canute" was once > popular?) I've always assumed that the pronunciation changed before the spelling. That is, when the /kn/ cluster dropped out of the language, it either became /n/ or /k@n/ and the name /knut/ started to be pronounced /k@'nut/, with the spelling following. Is it still pronounced /knut/ in the UK (other than by those consciously trying to be "historically accurate")? SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |If all else fails, embarrass the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |industry into doing the right Palo Alto, CA 94304 |thing. | Dean Thompson kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > > [...] > >> >Oh, well, if we must drag the maligned Cnut into it, [...] [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > pronounced /knut/ in the UK (other than by those consciously trying to > be "historically accurate")? Good point. "Canute" is still generally pronounced /k@'njut/ over here; I think I probably say /k@'nut/ as a rule, though I spell it "Cnut". My old DNB says "Cnut...see Canute". (The bird, which until a few moments ago I believed was named after him, is pronounced like a knot in rope. OED says the bird name is of unknown origin.) SignatureMike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > stupid anagram. (Is the anagram why the spelling "Canute" was once > popular?) I mainly see it spellt "Knut" these days. I presume the "Canute" spelling arose about the same time that English speakers stopped pronouncing the K in "knee, knife, etc." and found they could no longer say KN. SignatureRob Bannister > > [...] > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > pronouncing the K in "knee, knife, etc." and found they could no longer > say KN. Ox Christian Names says the Danish spelling is _Knud_, and the "Canute" form came from the Latin version, _Canutus_. Interestingly, it adds that it survived in England into the 13C in various forms beginning with plain "N", including the diminutive "Nutkin" and the surnames "Nott", "Nutt", "Nute", and "Notson". I suppose, though it isn't mentioned, that such names as "Knott" also come from it. SignatureMike. >> True. We need more context, Gunga. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >there's an untended garden somewhere on this island in need of parochial >ministering. We hope it's cabbage, but any unsnappy veg will do... There could be difficulties with using Canute in this way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canute_the_Great#Legend_of_the_waves Legend of the waves Canute is perhaps best remembered for the legend of how he commanded the waves to go back. According to the legend, he grew tired of flattery from his courtiers. When one such flatterer gushed that the king could even command the obedience of the sea, Canute proved him wrong by practical demonstration (at Southampton or Bosham), to demonstrate that even a king's powers have limits. Having demonstrably failed to command the waves he removed his crown, refusing to wear it again, claiming that there was no true king except Jesus. Thus it is quite possible that the legend is even simply pro-Canute propaganda. However, this legend is usually misunderstood to mean that he believed himself so powerful that the natural elements would obey him, and that his failure to command the tides only made him look foolish. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) [...] > >Of Fiona Woolf, President of the Law Society of England and Wales... > > > >Her venomous and [**Canute**] gambit to obstruct Lord Falconer's badly need > >legal services reform demonstrates the extent to which one-dimensional > >parochialism can disrupt the constitutional process. To be sure, she is a > >predictable and mettlesome knee-jerk long past any reasonable sell-by date. [...] > There could be difficulties with using Canute in this way. [...] > However, this legend is usually misunderstood to mean that he > believed himself so powerful that the natural elements would > obey him, and that his failure to command the tides only made > him look foolish. And the other one is Topsy, who did _not_ "grow and grow": that was the Giant Pancake, or, allowing a little poetic licence, the content of The Magic Porridge Pot. SignatureMike. On 27 Nov 2006, Mike Lyle wrote > And the other one is Topsy, who did _not_ "grow and grow": that > was the Giant Pancake, or, allowing a little poetic licence, the > content of The Magic Porridge Pot. I get annoyed when the quote is more or less correct, but has been refained: "like Topsy, it just grew", or "the law is an a.s". Harrumph. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >> True. We need more context, Gunga. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >there's an untended garden somewhere on this island in need of parochial >ministering. We hope it's cabbage, but any unsnappy veg will do... I say old chap - steady on! If it is truly Canutian (nugatory in its effect) then it can hardly be venomous. Malevolent perhaps - but not venomous. If the Canutian reference is too prone to be not-grokked, may I suggest instead something along the lines of "contravental micturation". I used this in a letter to the editor of our local blatt, and he had to call me up to find out that it meant "pissing against the wind". But then he was an uneducated lout, I suspect the chaps at The Times would have less of a problem. Jitze > I say old chap - steady on! If it is truly Canutian (nugatory in its > effect) then it can hardly be venomous. Malevolent perhaps - > but not venomous. Yes, the thread has convinced me that I'm malapproping. To be cnuting and venomning in the same thingie detracts more from the content than it adds. Pity. Or should I say piddy? Cnut is a lonely metaphor, but it will have to wait for a more sustainable coupling. Giftzwerggery? It fits. It's flicky. It's got dactylic resonance. Rakishly elevated. It doesn't Google, which is encouraging because it brings in those numismatically inclined. Moreover, dropping the final 'e' makes it end in 'gry'. Giftzwerggery is a natural. >Giftzwerggery? It fits. It's flicky. It's got dactylic resonance. >Rakishly elevated. It doesn't Google, which is encouraging because it >brings in those numismatically inclined. Moreover, dropping the final 'e' >makes it end in 'gry'. Giftzwerggery is a natural. Sent me to the bloody dictionary, and I am told there that Ein Giftzwerg is "ein boshafter, heimtückischer, gehässiger Mann". Where the hell is Rey when you need him? Jitze >> True. We need more context, Gunga. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > parochial ministering. We hope it's cabbage, but any unsnappy veg > will do... Knutonian SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>> True. We need more context, Gunga. >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Knutonian I'd have got on board with "canutian" if this train hadn't got on the right track and gone 'round the bend. Won't bother to keep in reserve a suggestion to remove the time-factor from deteriorating "canutian" into the eventual pub-usage, "yooshian", which sounds like as if it could work one way or another. SignatureFrank ess > > True. We need more context, Gunga. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > there's an untended garden somewhere on this island in need of parochial > ministering. We hope it's cabbage, but any unsnappy veg will do... If by "Canute-like" you meant "futile", the chess image in "gambit" suggests a possibility. "Her doomed obstruction of Lord Falconer's badly needed legal-services reform--like the 'spite checks' with which a petty chess player prolongs a lost game--demonstrates..." If you think readers know what spite checks are, you could make it a lot shorter. "Her 'spite check' to obstruct..." If you meant "arrogant", though, save the spite checks for another letter. SignatureJerry Friedman hopes this isn't a duplicate post. >> True. We need more context, Gunga. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of parochial ministering. We hope it's cabbage, but any unsnappy > veg will do... I'd suggest a different metaphor. Canute new full well that he would fail and did it to demonstrate his relative powerlessness to people whose expectations of his abilities were getting too high. That doesn't sound like what you're describing. (Unless there's another Canute story you're referring to.) SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |The whole idea of our government is 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |this: if enough people get together Palo Alto, CA 94304 |and act in concert, they can take |something and not pay for it. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com | P.J. O'Rourke (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ > I'd suggest a different metaphor. Canute new full well that he would Sorry. "Nute knew full well". SignatureEvan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |We never met anyone who believed in 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |fortune cookies. That's astounding. Palo Alto, CA 94304 |Belief in the precognitive powers |of an Asian pastry is really no kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com |wackier than belief in ESP, (650)857-7572 |subluxation, or astrology, but you |just don't hear anyone preaching http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ |Scientific Cookie-ism. | Penn and Teller LFS filted: >...We need more context, Gunga. I think I just found my next song title....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Canute. Knut. Cnut. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > How can this fellow be adjectivized in a way that will not make the Times > sniff in disdain? "Canutian" sounds suitably academic, but will only make sense to the reader if the name Canute has already been mentioned. "Canutish" would suit a lighter piece. Note also that the epithet could mean either "wise" or "stupid" depending on context. Adrian > Canute. Knut. Cnut. > > An ancient king of this isle remembered for lashing the waves. A lesser > known feat was his digging of the "Tigris River" from Rotherhithe to > Chelsea. There has been a recent habit to misrecord the story. Some now use the man's name to mean someone who has an over-exaggerated view of his own power. In fact, as anyone properly taught history would know, Cnut was getting fed up with his fawning courtiers who would never tell him the truth. The point of his "commanding the waves" was to show them up as foolish, he knew perfectly well he could not commandthem. Matthew Huntbach > Canute. Knut. Cnut. The third of these renders you liable to prosecution by The French Connection. O hang on, it's the other one, isn't it. Reminds me of that wonderful story of someone introducing the actress Diana Dors (born Diana Fluck) "Please welcome the lovely Diana Clunt". Will. As a Knut, I vote for Knutonian. Newton's Newtonian paves the way. Plus, in physics it allows for Knutonian physics. Knutonian physics is an explanation of why both the horizon and celeritas are: a personal, portable, self- adjusting ratio of height/time to distance, equal for all equal observers despite motion. Knutonian physics also extends yet preserves relativity by allowing light to be suddenly reversed by acceleration. As at a mirror, relativity holds both before and after the sudden reversal. >Canute. Knut. Cnut. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >How can this fellow be adjectivized in a way that will not make the Times >sniff in disdain? |
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