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Discussion Groups / English Usage / November 2006"A few moments", contd
Five years ago I said in this company: > I don't think I've ever heard "a few moments" in ordinary > conversation, but it is a favorite orotundity among people with > microphones who are about to try our patience. That is an example of what our friends on the Language Log call the recency illusion. The phrase surely must occur in ordinary conversation, and it is a good deal older than the microphone. It occurs about a dozen times in _The Picture of Dorian Gray_, both in conversation and in récit. This morning Amtrak promised our arrival in Stamford in a few *short* moments. I would have supposed that all moments were short, but Google finds hundreds of thousands of long ones. There must be medium-size ones in between. Not only no end to the foolishness of this world, but nothing new under the sun.  Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Extraverts only exist if someone is paying attention to :|| ||: them. :|| > This morning Amtrak promised our arrival in Stamford in a few *short* > moments. I would have supposed that all moments were short, but > Google finds hundreds of thousands of long ones. There must be > medium-size ones in between. And indeed, I'm sure Amtrak has vast experience in dispensing all three kinds. SignatureMark Brader "A moment's thought would have shown him, Toronto but a moment is a long time and thought msb@vex.net is a painful process." -- A. E. Housman > > This morning Amtrak promised our arrival in Stamford in a few *short* > > moments. I would have supposed that all moments were short, but > > Google finds hundreds of thousands of long ones. There must be > > medium-size ones in between. There is a need for even more gradations, because in Australia people often say "It won't be a moment" without specifying what it WILL be. Apparently there's no name for it. SignatureMW Melbourne >||: Extraverts only exist if someone is paying attention to :|| >||: them. :|| This is godawful! It just has to be this: "Extraverts exist only if someone is paying attention to them". SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >>>>> Extraverts only exist if someone is paying attention to :|| >>>>> them. :|| > > This is godawful! It just has to be this: > > "Extraverts exist only if someone is paying attention to them". or "Extroverts..." I've never seen the -a- spelling before, but it seems to be reasonably common in Google. It isn't mentioned in the Australian Oxford, so maybe it's pondial. There's a Wikipedia article that says "The terms introvert and extrovert (also spelled extravert)... " -- Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au >>>>>> Extraverts only exist if someone is paying attention to >>>>>> :|| them. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > article that says "The terms introvert and extrovert (also > spelled extravert)... " W3NID says "variant of EXTROVERT". To me it means "supergreen", however. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >>>>>>> Extraverts only exist if someone is paying attention to >>>>>>> :|| them. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >W3NID says "variant of EXTROVERT". To me it means "supergreen", >however. "Extravert" is the more etymologically sound. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=extrovert extrovert 1916, extravert (spelled with -o- after 1918, by influence of introvert), from Ger. Extravert, from extra "outside" + L. vertere "to turn" see versus). With introvert, terms used in Eng. by doctors and scientists in various literal senses since 1600s, but popularized in a psychological sense by Carl Jung. SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>||: Extraverts only exist if someone is paying attention to :|| >>||: them. :|| > > This is godawful! It just has to be this: > > "Extraverts exist only if someone is paying attention to them". There speaks one of those friends from whom the English language may well pray to be saved, one of the modern precisians who have more zeal than discretion, and wish to restrain liberty as such, regardless of whether it is harmfully or harmlessly exercised. -- Fowler, MEU, s.v. only, adv.: its placing and misplacing ...it is torturing the sentence and the listener to make a point of saying _He died only yesterday_. To establish the opposite, the advocates of the officious _only_ must lead the way by saying _Only God knows_. -- Follett, MAU, s.v. only "Only" is attracted to the main verb in idiomatic English for the same reason "not" is: Giving early warning that the sentence is a negative one is more important than strict logic. I think we sometimes overdo it (I wouldn't mind if we went back from "I don't think so" to "I think not"), and indeed I have opined elsewhere on this ng that Fowler overdoes his rebuttal; but in sentences where no-one is likely to misplace the stress, shoving "only" around is pedantry. Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: It is easier to forgive people who bore us than people we :|| ||: bore. :|| > There speaks one of those friends from whom the English language > may well pray to be saved, one of the modern precisians who have [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > overdoes his rebuttal; but in sentences where no-one is likely to > misplace the stress, shoving "only" around is pedantry. It is plain from the first of these excerpts that Fowler himself faltered occasionally as a stylist. I won't make the same criticism of the formidabble Jimbo, but, yes, "Only God knows" sounds better to me than "God only knows", though less familiar. If someone wants to argue that "Only God knows" or "Extraverts exist only if" are examples of "harmful" over-correction, I'm willing to consider the arguments, but pray do something better than quoting sweeping generalities. -- MW Melbourne > Joe Fineman wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> -- Fowler, MEU, s.v. only, adv.: its placing and >> misplacing We don't wish to restrain liberty at all at all, by the bye. We like to exercise our liberty of expression by bitching and moaning about what are obviously -- in this particular case -- false notes and atonal chords in the otherwise musical stream of English >> ...it is torturing the sentence and the listener to make a >> point of saying _He died only yesterday_. To establish the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> the same reason "not" is: Giving early warning that the >> sentence is a negative one is more important than strict logic. This is pure bullpucky. In Japanese, a much more reasonable language than my dearly beloved English, there is no need for such signals (although there may be such). The speakers in particular like to save the positivity or negativity of the verb for the very end of the sentence; that way, they do not offend their listeners by disagreeing with them. Your "explanation" is merely an ad hoc rationalization. >> I think we sometimes overdo it (I wouldn't mind if we went >> back from "I don't think so" to "I think not") Each has its place. I use them both. > , and indeed I >> have opined elsewhere on this ng that Fowler overdoes his [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > faltered occasionally as a stylist. I won't make the same > criticism of the formidabble Jimbo, That's Wilson Follett, not Jimbo. www.amazon.com/Modern-American-Usage-Wilson-Follett/dp/0809069512 > but, yes, "Only God knows" > sounds better to me than "God only knows", though less familiar. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > willing to consider the arguments, but pray do something better > than quoting sweeping generalities. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." > That's Wilson Follett, not Jimbo. > www.amazon.com/Modern-American-Usage-Wilson-Follett/dp/0809069512 Thank you for the correction and apologies to both Folletts, and any other Folletts, living or dead, whom I may manage to misidentify in future. By the way, Franke, I was going over some old AUE exchanges and I believe you will be either pleased or mystified to know that this time I got your "your analysis" gag, which whooshed by me the first time. > dontbother wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > any other Folletts, living or dead, whom I may manage to > misidentify in future. Any time, Michael. I just happen to own a copy of that book. I've opened it a few times, but the guy is far too unreasonably prescriptive, even for me > By the way, Franke, I was going over some old AUE exchanges and > I believe you will be either pleased or mystified to know that > this time I got your "your analysis" gag, which whooshed by me > the first time. Yep, I'm mystified. It was too long ago for me to still have stored in short-term memory banks and too recent for the long-term Fort Knox-like bastion. Please provide a link, if you have it. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." >>>||: Extraverts only exist if someone is paying attention to >>>||: :|| them. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > but in sentences where no-one is likely to misplace the stress, > shoving "only" around is pedantry. And what else would you expect from a pedant? Your response is precisely what I expected. To analogize, never criticize the musical propensities of the tone deaf and rhythmically challenged: they know not what they hear. SignatureFranke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. Unmunged email: /at/easypeasy.com "Impatience is the mother of misery." Joe Fineman filted: >This morning Amtrak promised our arrival in Stamford in a few *short* >moments. I would have supposed that all moments were short, but >Google finds hundreds of thousands of long ones. There must be >medium-size ones in between. Google also finds 86,300 things "of great moment"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > Five years ago I said in this company: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > occurs about a dozen times in _The Picture of Dorian Gray_, both in > conversation and in récit. OED's earliest is "1663 Boyle Usefuln. Exp. & Nat. Philos. v. Wks. 1772 II. 61 They may often learn that in a few moments, which cost the imparters many a year's toil and study." Closely followed by "1750 Johnson Rambler No. 78 32 The fragrance of the *jessamine bower is lost after the enjoyment of a few moments." SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > This morning Amtrak promised our arrival in Stamford in a few *short* > moments. I would have supposed that all moments were short, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not only no end to the foolishness of this world, but nothing new > under the sun. Senior moments come in a variety of durations. SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > This morning Amtrak promised our arrival in Stamford in a few > *short* moments. I would have supposed that all moments were short, > but Google finds hundreds of thousands of long ones. There must be > medium-size ones in between. I meant to add: Cf. "many long years ago". Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: If you disagree with a prescriptivist, you are a slob; if :|| ||: you disagree with a descriptivist, you are an idiot. :|| |
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