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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Minneapolitan
I've just finished reading a fantasy by Michele Hauf. Yet another book that would have made a fine read if only it had been better written. No matter. What interested me was two extremely strange language uses: "Can you come that?" The context was of little help in the first instance of this expression and I was left totally puzzled, but she uses it quite a lot, so I finally worked out that means something like "Can you match/beat that?" or sometimes "Can you accept/take that?" The second was a transitive use of "land", where I would need "on" or "in". This example is fairly self-explanatory: "Rhiana flew down the stairs and landed the keep with a dash that took her past the huddled women and children." I could easily have skipped over that with my mind supplying the missing "in", but in other examples where the subject is a flying creature and the object something moveable, I found it extremely confusing. It seems that Ms Hauf is a native English speaker and lives in Minneapolis, so my question is: "Is this local Minneapolis dialect? I have never come across either usage myself, but I am hoping that someone will recognise it and perhaps say "We always say it that way. Is there another way of saying it?"  SignatureRob Bannister > "Can you come that?" The context was of little help in the first > instance of this expression and I was left totally puzzled, but she uses > it quite a lot, so I finally worked out that means something like "Can > you match/beat that?" or sometimes "Can you accept/take that?" This seems to be pretty old (as it's in Brewer's): ---- Come That as, Can you come that? --I can't come that. Here, "come" means to arrive at, to accomplish. Source: Brewer's Dictionary. http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Co/Come+That.html --- >> "Can you come that?" The context was of little help in the first >> instance of this expression and I was left totally puzzled, but she [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Co/Come+That.html > --- And a web search for "can you come that" yields other examples: http://www.kancoll.org/khq/1939/39_3_everett.htm "I stepped on to the scales with Bobby and found he increased my weight 24 lbs.! Can you come that in Steuben?" http://www.dcnyhistory.org/letterelliotjan1871.html " ... the Firkins weighed 28 cwt & 60 lbs if the pails runs as much they well be fully 300 spring included of 21 cows and I have fed no grain till the 6 day of Otr now can you come that in mild California." (Spelling and punctuation all 'sic' - this letter is from 1878) And OED has it: 30. a. To attain to, reach, achieve. Also to come it. dial. and colloq. 1825 Spirit of Public Jrnls. M.DCCC.XXIII 27, I wish this fellow to say how he got hold o' my checque for three hundred+let him come that, and I shall be satisfied. 1840 Hard Cider Press (U.S.) 10 Oct. 2/1 Kent has come it.+ Kent has Kracked the Krown of King Martin in Maine. 1840 Haliburton Clockm. III. 105, I couldn't come it. 1849 C. Lanman Alleghany Mts. xi. 89 The fellers laughed at me and said I couldn't come it. 1866 J. C. Gregg Life in Army xv. 141 Feeling secure from their voracious bills, as they hum around your room, and try to 'come it', but find an abatis in their way. 1888 Berksh. Gloss. s.v., 'I can't quite come that' (= that is beyond me). 1888 in W. Somerset Word-bk. 1908 Dialect Notes III. 300 He tried hard, but he couldn't quite come it. So it seems to have been born and died in the 19th Century. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > I've just finished reading a fantasy by Michele Hauf. Yet another book > that would have made a fine read if only it had been better written. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > someone will recognise it and perhaps say "We always say it that way. > Is there another way of saying it?" Neither usage is familiar to me, though the "come that" one, it seems, I have seen before. (It brings to mind the "Oh, now, don't come the shy one with me!" But I expect you have seen this usage before.) Maybe MPLS Ray Wise will chime in soon. Haven't seen his posts in a while. Anyway, I have spent all but the last 20 years of my life in the vicinity of the ol' Mississippi, and most of the people in Western Wisconsin share much of the dialect and culture of the riverine people of Eastern Minnesota. >>I've just finished reading a fantasy by Michele Hauf. Yet another book >>that would have made a fine read if only it had been better written. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Wisconsin share much of the dialect and culture of the riverine people > of Eastern Minnesota. Thanks for the replies so far. I expect there will be more tomorrow. It seems that, despite the dictionary listings, they are not well-known expressions. SignatureRob Bannister > > I've just finished reading a fantasy by Michele Hauf. Yet another book > > that would have made a fine read if only it had been better written. > > No matter. What interested me was two extremely strange language uses: > > > > "Can you come that?" The context was of little help in the first [ ... ] > Neither usage is familiar to me, though the "come that" one, it seems, I > have seen before. (It brings to mind the "Oh, now, don't come the shy > one with me!" The only expression that resembles this that I have come across before is "Don't come the raw prawn with me", which I think is Australian slang for don't play the innocent. Google has 19000 hits with "come the raw prawn", and only 19800 for "come the raw", so the overwhelming majority of examples include the prawn. athel > Maybe MPLS Ray Wise will chime in soon. Haven't seen his posts in a > while. Nor have I. And though I haven't been keeping up with the group as much as usual lately, I have noticed his absence. SignatureMaria There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name. (The email address I use in this newsgroup is munged.) > > I've just finished reading a fantasy by Michele Hauf. Yet another book > > that would have made a fine read if only it had been better written. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Wisconsin share much of the dialect and culture of the riverine people > of Eastern Minnesota. I've never encountered either usage, either in person or in discussions in the local media about Minnesota speech. -- Raymond S. Wise Minneapolis, Minnesota USA E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com >> > "Can you come that?" The context was of little help in the first >> > instance of this expression and I was left totally puzzled, but she [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > discussions > in the local media about Minnesota speech. Wow, Ray! Good to see you haven't passed on. I nearly did, waiting to her from you. [snip] > The second was a transitive use of "land", where I would need "on" or > "in". This example is fairly self-explanatory: "Rhiana flew down the > stairs and landed the keep with a dash that took her past the huddled > women and children."[snip] OED2 has "land, vt." usages that do not have "on" or "in;" excerpt: Transitive senses 1. a. To bring to land; to set on shore; to disembark. 1894 Hall Caine Manxman v. iii. 288 Four hundred boats were coming..to land their cargoes. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > [snip] > > The second was a transitive use of "land", where I would need "on" or [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 1894 Hall Caine Manxman v. iii. 288 Four hundred boats were > coming..to land their cargoes. That's different, of course. But I want to know what the author thinks a "keep" is. To me, it's the central fortification, the donjon, the final defensive resort, of a castle. SignatureMike. >>[snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > a "keep" is. To me, it's the central fortification, the donjon, the > final defensive resort, of a castle. Yes, that was one of the many puzzles. She's consistent in using to mean what I might call the "inner ward" or "bailey". The most annoying thing is her strange mixture of "old" English with total anachronisms, eg there is a paragraph beginning with " 'Twas" that also contains the word "triage" - I suppose "triage" is fairly normal American/French, but for us, it was something never heard outside medical circles until we started watching American hospital programmes on TV, and this story is not set in America. It's all a great pity, since the story was pretty good, and I would have enjoyed it, had it been written by a better writer. Of course, AUE tends to spoil even great writers to some extent: you keep thinking "wrong word", "bad punctuation". SignatureRob Bannister > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > 1894 Hall Caine Manxman v. iii. 288 Four hundred boats were > coming..to land their cargoes. Exactly. So you can imagine my confusion when "[the dragon] landed the trebuchet" - I imagined it had picked it up and put it down, but it turned out it was sitting on it. She uses this construction several times, where I need "on" or "in" or at least something. SignatureRob Bannister |
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