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which one of the following choices is correct?

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Verbal Kint - 16 Dec 2006 05:06 GMT
Hello.

Could you please let me know, which of the following sentences is
correct:

a.) Tomorrow, after we are back from Bangkok ...
b.) Tomorrow, after we came back from Bangkok ...
c.) Tomorrow, after we come back from Bangkok ...

Or how would you say it properly?

Thanks.
V.K.

p.s.: Do I have to use the comma after tomorrow?
dontbother - 16 Dec 2006 05:18 GMT
> Could you please let me know, which of the following sentences is
> correct:
>
> a.) Tomorrow, after we are back from Bangkok ...

This is okay.

> b.) Tomorrow, after we came back from Bangkok ...

Not correct.

> c.) Tomorrow, after we come back from Bangkok ...

This is okay.

> Or how would you say it properly?

Tomorrow, after we have returned from Bangkok,...
Tomorrow, after returning from Bangkok, we will...
Tomorrow, after our return from Bangkok, we will...

> p.s.: Do I have to use the comma after tomorrow?

Yes, IMHO.

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Verbal Kint - 16 Dec 2006 05:37 GMT
thanks for the answer!
Roland Hutchinson - 16 Dec 2006 06:31 GMT
>> Could you please let me know, which of the following sentences is
>> correct:
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Yes, IMHO.

"Tomorrow, after we get back from Bankok, we will..." is what springs most
naturally to my lips.  

Other possibilities:

"After we get back from Bangkok tomorrow, we will..."

"When we get back from Bangkok tomorrow, we will..." (This one suggests that
you are going to do whatever it is as the first thing, or very nearly the
first thing, that you do after getting back.)

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Mark Brader - 16 Dec 2006 06:47 GMT
> Could you please let me know, which of the following sentences is
> correct:
>
> a.) Tomorrow, after we are back from Bangkok ...
> b.) Tomorrow, after we came back from Bangkok ...
> c.) Tomorrow, after we come back from Bangkok ...

Versions a and c are both correct.  Version a refers to the status
of being back, while c refers making to the trip back, but they both
work out to mean the same thing.

If you intend the same meaning that a and c have, then b is wrong.

(b could occur in a more complicated context, if you were speaking
about future plans now cancelled -- "Tomorrow, after we came back
from Bangkok, I was going to get my photos developed.  Now that we're
not going, I don't know when I'll finish the roll of film.")

> p.s.: Do I have to use the comma after tomorrow?

No, but it might be better to use it.  It depends on the whole
sentence, and this is an area where native English-speakers will
often disagree.
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Roland Hutchinson - 16 Dec 2006 08:22 GMT
> (b could occur in a more complicated context, if you were speaking
> about future plans now cancelled -- "Tomorrow, after we came back
> from Bangkok, I was going to get my photos developed.  Now that we're
> not going, I don't know when I'll finish the roll of film.")

Oooh!  Good catch!

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John Kane - 16 Dec 2006 18:33 GMT
> > (b could occur in a more complicated context, if you were speaking
> > about future plans now cancelled -- "Tomorrow, after we came back
> > from Bangkok, I was going to get my photos developed.  Now that we're
> > not going, I don't know when I'll finish the roll of film.")
>
> Oooh!  Good catch!


Yes indeed. Bravo!
Leslie Danks - 16 Dec 2006 10:27 GMT
[...]

> (b could occur in a more complicated context, if you were speaking
> about future plans now cancelled -- "Tomorrow, after we came back
> from Bangkok, I was going to get my photos developed.  Now that we're
> not going, I don't know when I'll finish the roll of film.")

It may be technically correct but it sounds odd to me. IMO removing the
second comma would help a bit:

"Tomorrow, after we came back from Bangkok I was going to get my photos
developed."

or better still:

"Tomorrow, I was going to get my photos developed after we came back from
Bangkok."

or even with no commas at all:

"Tomorrow I was going to get my photos developed after we came back from
Bangkok."

[...]

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Les

Skitt - 16 Dec 2006 19:09 GMT
> [...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> "Tomorrow, after we came back from Bangkok I was going to get my
> photos developed."

That one is the worst option, I believe.

> or better still:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> [...]

I support Mark's version.  The "after we came back fronm Bangkok" is a
subordinate clause that can be eliminated without any loss of the pertinent
information.  It should be set apart with commas.
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Leslie Danks - 16 Dec 2006 21:56 GMT
>> [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> pertinent
> information.  It should be set apart with commas.

OK, then what about:

"Tomorrow, I was going to get my photos developed, after we came back
from Bangkok."

... because "Tomorrow, after we came back ..." just doesn't seem to sit well
(but maybe it's just me).

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Les

Skitt - 16 Dec 2006 22:12 GMT

>>>> (b could occur in a more complicated context, if you were speaking
>>>> about future plans now cancelled -- "Tomorrow, after we came back
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> ... because "Tomorrow, after we came back ..." just doesn't seem to
> sit well (but maybe it's just me).

>>> "Tomorrow, I was going to get my photos developed, after we came
>>> back from Bangkok."

That is OK punctuationwise, but clumsy stylewise.

> .. because "Tomorrow, after we came back ..." just doesn't seem to
> sit well (but maybe it's just me).

It might be just you.

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Mark Brader - 17 Dec 2006 07:36 GMT
Mark Brader:
>>>> (b could occur in a more complicated context, if you were speaking
>>>> about future plans now cancelled -- "Tomorrow, after we came back
>>>> from Bangkok, I was going to get my photos developed.  Now that we're
>>>> not going, I don't know when I'll finish the roll of film.")

Les Danks:
>>> IMO removing the second comma would help a bit:

"Skitt":
>> That one is the worst option, I believe.

See, I said people would disagree about commas!

Les Danks:
> ... because "Tomorrow, after we came back ..." just doesn't seem to
> sit well (but maybe it's just me).

It's not how I'd normally express the sentence either.
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Skitt - 17 Dec 2006 18:02 GMT
> See, I said people would disagree about commas!

Well, natch!  English doesn't have any hard and fast rules for commas.
There has to be some applying of logic and observance of sentence structure
requirements.  Preferably both.  People's logic varies, though.
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Daniel al-Autistiqui - 18 Dec 2006 18:46 GMT
Rare? Rare?

daniel mcgrath
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Default User - 18 Dec 2006 21:40 GMT
> Rare? Rare?
>
> daniel mcgrath

As you can't even have the courtesy now to quote the passage that
you're complaining about, I'm plonking you.

Brian

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R J Valentine - 19 Dec 2006 03:58 GMT
} On Sun, 17 Dec 2006 07:36:25 -0000, msb@vex.net (Mark Brader) wrote:
}
} Rare? Rare?

Inconceivable!

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rjv

Maria - 19 Dec 2006 04:19 GMT
> } Mark Brader wrote:
>
> }
> } Rare? Rare?
>
> Inconceivable!

Oh, I like that response.

(And how about you, Daniel? Did you laugh, as I did?)

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Maria
There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name.
(The email address I use in this newsgroup is munged.)

Daniel al-Autistiqui - 19 Dec 2006 16:46 GMT
>> } Mark Brader wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>(And how about you, Daniel? Did you laugh, as I did?)

No, not really.  If that's supposed to be some sort of joke, I don't
get it.

BTW Maria, I kind of feel bad because, although you want us to be
friends, you don't (as far as I can tell) respond to most of my posts.

daniel mcgrath
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Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
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Maria - 19 Dec 2006 17:57 GMT
>>> } Mark Brader wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> No, not really.  If that's supposed to be some sort of joke, I don't
> get it.

Well, not so much a joke as a kind of wordplay. Various posters in this
newsgroup are very good at that.

> BTW Maria, I kind of feel bad because, although you want us to be
> friends, you don't (as far as I can tell) respond to most of my posts.

That's because most of your posts involve matters in which I am not
well-versed (or just "versed" at all). I usually* read your posts, but
frequently find I have nothing to contribute in the way of comment, or
even in the way of a logical question.

I must say this: You are one smart guy, Daniel. I can't keep up, but I
can -- and do -- admire you.

*There are times when I get so behind in reading the group that I just
mark everything "read" and go from there.

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Maria
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Daniel al-Autistiqui - 19 Dec 2006 18:31 GMT
>>>> } Mark Brader wrote:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Well, not so much a joke as a kind of wordplay. Various posters in this
>newsgroup are very good at that.

Yes, but I still can't seem to figure it out.  At any rate, it wasn't
funny to me.

>> BTW Maria, I kind of feel bad because, although you want us to be
>> friends, you don't (as far as I can tell) respond to most of my posts.
>
>That's because most of your posts involve matters in which I am not
>well-versed (or just "versed" at all).

Can you give me examples of such matters so that I have a clearer
understanding of what you are saying?

>I usually* read your posts, but
>frequently find I have nothing to contribute in the way of comment, or
>even in the way of a logical question.

Yes, I understand what you mean, but it is still somewhat annoying not
to hear from you.  For all I know, it could make me forget that you
think of me as your friend.  I would appreciate it if at some point
you could make an effort to respond to a larger proportion of my
postings than you have been doing.

[...]

daniel mcgrath
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Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
   Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
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Maria - 19 Dec 2006 18:56 GMT
>>>>> } Mark Brader wrote:
>>>>> }
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Yes, but I still can't seem to figure it out.  At any rate, it wasn't
> funny to me.

That's okay. It probably wasn't funny to some others, either. I just
have a different sense of humor than you and those "some others" do.

>>> BTW Maria, I kind of feel bad because, although you want us to be
>>> friends, you don't (as far as I can tell) respond to most of my
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Can you give me examples of such matters so that I have a clearer
> understanding of what you are saying?

Math. Science-related things. You are able to talk about areas I've
never delved into very much.

>> I usually* read your posts, but
>> frequently find I have nothing to contribute in the way of comment,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> you could make an effort to respond to a larger proportion of my
> postings than you have been doing.

> [...]

Well, I'll certainly try. And in the meantime, I hope you and your
family have a great Christmas. (I'm assuming you celebrate Christmas,
but if you don't, then have a great holiday (AmE, not BrE).

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Maria
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Tony Cooper - 19 Dec 2006 22:40 GMT
>>>>> } Mark Brader wrote:
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>Yes, but I still can't seem to figure it out.  At any rate, it wasn't
>funny to me.

Don't feel badly, Daniel.  I don't get it either.  I don't even see
the wordplay Maria seems to have caught.

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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Maria - 20 Dec 2006 01:03 GMT
>> Yes, but I still can't seem to figure it out.  At any rate, it wasn't
>> funny to me.
>
> Don't feel badly, Daniel.  I don't get it either.  I don't even see
> the wordplay Maria seems to have caught.

Maybe it wasn't really there, and I just imagined it. All I know is that
I laughed at Arjay's post.

Perhaps easily amused,
Maria
Daniel al-Autistiqui - 20 Dec 2006 18:28 GMT
>[...] Arjay's [...]

Oy!

daniel mcgrath
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Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
   Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
   & periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]

Maria - 21 Dec 2006 07:57 GMT
>> [...] Arjay's [...]
>
> Oy!

Do you think I should have used "RJ's"?

I've seen and used the "Arjay" version before in a.u.e.; its usage may
have been started by Mr. Fontana, but I don't remember.

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Maria
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Tony Cooper - 21 Dec 2006 13:09 GMT
>>> [...] Arjay's [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I've seen and used the "Arjay" version before in a.u.e.; its usage may
>have been started by Mr. Fontana, but I don't remember.

I claim credit, but I'm not what value that credit has.  
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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Daniel al-Autistiqui - 21 Dec 2006 16:13 GMT
>>> [...] Arjay's [...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>I've seen and used the "Arjay" version before in a.u.e.; its usage may
>have been started by Mr. Fontana, but I don't remember.

I was not being so serious.  I, of course, have also seen references
to Mr. Valentine as "Arjay".

What I was alluding more to was my caretaker named 'K'.  If RJ can be
"Arjay", then why can't K be "Kay"?  (Or "Frances", for that matter.)

daniel mcgrath
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Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
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Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
   Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
   & periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]

Tony Cooper - 21 Dec 2006 16:19 GMT
>>>> [...] Arjay's [...]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>What I was alluding more to was my caretaker named 'K'.  If RJ can be
>"Arjay", then why can't K be "Kay"?  (Or "Frances", for that matter.)

Because I assigned "Arjay" to Mr Valentine, and "K" assumedly assigned
"K" as her own name.  We are not at all sure Mr Valentine accepts
being referred to as "Arjay".  It may sound too much like a fast-food
restaurant's name to him.

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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

the Omrud - 21 Dec 2006 16:27 GMT
Tony Cooper <tony_cooper213@earthlink.net> had it:

> >What I was alluding more to was my caretaker named 'K'.  If RJ can be
> >"Arjay", then why can't K be "Kay"?  (Or "Frances", for that matter.)
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> being referred to as "Arjay".  It may sound too much like a fast-food
> restaurant's name to him.

I thought it sounded more like a Bollywood film star.

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David
=====

R J Valentine - 21 Dec 2006 16:32 GMT
} On Thu, 21 Dec 2006 07:57:05 GMT, "Maria" <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net>
} wrote:
}
}>> Maria wrote:
}>>
}>>> [...] Arjay's [...]
}>>
}>> Oy!
}>
}>Do you think I should have used "RJ's"?
}>
}>I've seen and used the "Arjay" version before in a.u.e.; its usage may
}>have been started by Mr. Fontana, but I don't remember.
}
} I was not being so serious.  I, of course, have also seen references
} to Mr. Valentine as "Arjay".
}
} What I was alluding more to was my caretaker named 'K'.  If RJ can be
} "Arjay", then why can't K be "Kay"?  (Or "Frances", for that matter.)

I got it.  Dr Pepper ricocheted (= BrE "ricochetted") off the screen of my
dy computer over to the keyboard of my hemateQ computer.  That Dan is a
caution.  It reminds me, though, that we just got a Christmas card from my
niece and her husband J (pronounced "Jay").  I won't tell you what they
named their kid, the bearer of my mitochondria and that of my Uncle
Maurice and of Mary Kennedy, who came from Dublin to Upstate New York back
in the century before last.

Frances, that's a nice name.  But people are all the time spelling it
"Francis".

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rjv

Tony Cooper - 21 Dec 2006 18:36 GMT
>Frances, that's a nice name.  But people are all the time spelling it
>"Francis".

People can be mulish.

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Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Reinhold (Rey) Aman - 21 Dec 2006 19:03 GMT
Raoul J. Valentine wrote:

[...]

> Frances, that's a nice name.  But people are all the time
> spelling it "Francis".

You'll never misspell that name again if you remember my mnemonic device:

Francis = male.  Note penis-like <i>.
    ^
Frances = female.  Note vulva-like hole in <e>.
    ^

No charge.

~~~ Rey ~~~
http://www.sonic.net/maledicta/contents13.html
athel...@yahoo - 22 Dec 2006 12:16 GMT
[ ... ]

> I got it.  Dr Pepper ricocheted (= BrE "ricochetted")

Where did you get this idea from? Is it a Microsoft Wordism? I've never
written (until now) "ricochetted" in my life or pronounced the t, and I
don't remember ever hearing the t pronounced by a BrE speaker. I have
always pronounced it (and heard it pronounced) as if it were spelled
"rickoshayed".

athel
Peter Duncanson - 22 Dec 2006 14:10 GMT
>[ ... ]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>always pronounced it (and heard it pronounced) as if it were spelled
>"rickoshayed".

I have never seen or heard the "tt" version, but it is in the online
COED:
http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/ricochet?view=uk

   ricochet
   
   /rikkshay, -shet/
   
     * verb (ricocheted /rikk@shayd/, ricocheting /rikk@shaying/ or
       ricochetted /rikk@shetid/, ricochetting /rikk@sheting/)
       1 (of a bullet or other projectile) rebound off a surface.
       2 move or appear to move in such a way.
   
     * noun
       1 a shot or hit that ricochets.
       2 the ricocheting action of a bullet or other projectile.
   
     — ORIGIN French.

I've inserted "@" in place of the schwa symbol which was lost in the
copy-paste.

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Peter Duncanson, UK
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 22 Dec 2006 17:26 GMT
> [ ... ]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> speaker. I have always pronounced it (and heard it pronounced) as if
> it were spelled "rickoshayed".

MWCD11 says "_Britain also_ -/SEt/".  The "also" means, "less
commonly".  The OED gives both pronunciations with -/eI/ first, but
with no indication that -/Et/ is less common.  The OED also notes, for
the verb

  The suppression of the t is also extended to the forms
  _ricochetted_, _ricochetting_ (cf. _crochetted_, _crochetting_). In
  these forms, and in the verb generally, stressing on the third
  syllable is common

which implies to me that the "tt" spelling is common there even among
those who don't pronounce it.  They have one 1891 quote with
"ricocheting", two with "richochetting", and three with
"ricochetted", although the 1894 quotation is the most recent one they
give.

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Pat Durkin - 21 Dec 2006 17:15 GMT
>>>> [...] Arjay's [...]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> What I was alluding more to was my caretaker named 'K'.  If RJ can be
> "Arjay", then why can't K be "Kay"?  (Or "Frances", for that matter.)

Glad you weren't being so serious, Dan.  Have a sunny day.  And don't
worry.  How many times are you going to have to write K's name?

Just don't slip and pronounce it "Frances".
Daniel al-Autistiqui - 21 Dec 2006 17:49 GMT
>>>>> [...] Arjay's [...]
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>Glad you weren't being so serious, Dan.  Have a sunny day.  And don't
>worry.  How many times are you going to have to write K's name?

It doesn't matter.  When I say "K" I feel that I am not saying the
same thing as if I were to say "Kay".  Otherwise, what's up with
"Mattie" and "Maddie"?

>Just don't slip and pronounce it "Frances".

You know that that's her *middle* name, don't you?  She strongly
prefers her first name ("K").  (Whenever I talk her into accepting
"Frances" she feels like she wants to call me "Gerard".  But I would
argue that a first name consisting of a single letter is a special
case.)

The point, I guess, is that someone like Tony Cooper cannot just
blindly turn a name like "RJ" into "Arjay".  He has no idea if the
bearer of the name will accept that latter spelling.  I must have
realized this when I met "K", for she does not always like it when
others write down her name as "Kay".

daniel mcgrath
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Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"

Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
   Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
   & periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]

the Omrud - 21 Dec 2006 18:14 GMT
Daniel al-Autistiqui <govende30@hotmail.invalid> had it:

> You know that that's her *middle* name, don't you?  She strongly
> prefers her first name ("K").  (Whenever I talk her into accepting
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> The point, I guess, is that someone like Tony Cooper cannot just
> blindly turn a name like "RJ" into "Arjay".

It might not be entirely polite, but there's nothing to stop somebody
like Tony Cooper from doing this. He might, for example, have
mischievous intent and a twinkle in his eye.

> He has no idea if the
> bearer of the name will accept that latter spelling.

That was probably the point.

> I must have
> realized this when I met "K", for she does not always like it when
> others write down her name as "Kay".

Why don't you just call her "Kay" and find ways never to write it
down.

Signature

David
=====

Tony Cooper - 21 Dec 2006 18:40 GMT
>The point, I guess, is that someone like Tony Cooper cannot just
>blindly turn a name like "RJ" into "Arjay".  He has no idea if the
>bearer of the name will accept that latter spelling.  I must have
>realized this when I met "K", for she does not always like it when
>others write down her name as "Kay".

Oh yes I can.  I can call Mr Valentine anything I like.  Mr Cunningham
does that to many of us, and Mr Cunningham is a venerable and
respected poster here.

I accept Mr Cunningham's choices.  Call me "author" and I'll answer.

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Bob Cunningham - 21 Dec 2006 19:44 GMT
[...]

> Mr Cunningham is a venerable and respected poster here.

Posting to soc.culture.irish 26 April 2005, Mr Cooper lied
as follows:

   Our (alt.usage.english) Cunningham is a crusty old
   man who writes more posts criticizing other posters
   and posting styles than he does about anything else.
Tony Cooper - 21 Dec 2006 20:07 GMT
>[...]
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>    man who writes more posts criticizing other posters
>    and posting styles than he does about anything else.

On review, I feel that both statements are true and accurate.  The
statistics involved may have changed depending on the time period
analyzed.  Mr Cunningham has bumped his non-critizing ratio of posts
of late by many posts on the subject of amplitude or amplified or
alchemy or something like that.  (He did mention a gold wave) He also
has several false positives that are the result of self-correction.

He remains venerable.  And old.  (Which is really a Good Thing since
any change from that status is Not So Good)

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Brad Germolene - 21 Dec 2006 23:50 GMT
>>[...]
>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>He remains venerable.  And old.  (Which is really a Good Thing since
>any change from that status is Not So Good)

ObAUE: Can the least thick-skinned person in the history of Usenet
reasonably be described as crusty?

Signature

Brad Germolene

Bob Cunningham - 22 Dec 2006 00:52 GMT
> >[...]
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> statistics involved may have changed depending on the time period
> analyzed.

Cooper never reported any analysis of statistics.  I did,
taking all of the data I had resident in my newsreader
buffers, which represented a period of a few months.  My
analysis showed that he wasn't even close with his
defamatory outburst.  He just tells whatever lies he finds
convenient at the moment.
Brad Germolene - 22 Dec 2006 13:44 GMT
>> >[...]
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>defamatory outburst.  He just tells whatever lies he finds
>convenient at the moment.

Darn right. I wouldn't even put it past him to claim I once told him
to bugger off.

Signature

Brad Germolene

ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay, I promise) in January 1997.

Peter Duncanson - 22 Dec 2006 14:12 GMT
>Brad Germolene
>
>ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay, I promise) in January 1997.

Do THEY, the relevant authorities, know that you have a
time-machine?

Signature

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Brad Germolene - 22 Dec 2006 14:48 GMT
>>Brad Germolene
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Do THEY, the relevant authorities, know that you have a
>time-machine?

Not me, guv. That's the Omrud's department.

Signature

Brad Germolene

ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is
coming (to stay, I promise) in January 1997.

the Omrud - 22 Dec 2006 15:41 GMT
Brad Germolene <gguiri@yahoo.com> had it:

> >>Brad Germolene
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Not me, guv. That's the Omrud's department.

But even I can't foretell the past.

Signature

David
=====

HVS - 22 Dec 2006 15:51 GMT
On 22 Dec 2006, the Omrud wrote

> Brad Germolene <gguiri@yahoo.com> had it:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> But even I can't foretell the past.

Other people may have hindsight;  I prefer to call it "prophetic
retrospection".

Signature

Cheers, Harvey

Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed
For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van

LFS - 22 Dec 2006 14:49 GMT
ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay, I
promise) in January 1997.

I'll look backward to that, then.

Signature

Laura
(emulate St. George for email)

Brad Germolene - 22 Dec 2006 22:25 GMT
>ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay, I
>promise) in January 1997.
>
>I'll look backward to that, then.

I'm a twennieth-cenchuree boy
I wanna be your toy

DAH-DAH, duh-daah duh-daah....

Signature

Brad Germolene

ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is
coming (to stay, I promise) in January 2017.

Roland Hutchinson - 23 Dec 2006 18:27 GMT
> ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay, I
> promise) in January 1997.
>
> I'll look backward to that, then.

Are we allowed to look askance at it?

Signature

Roland Hutchinson              Will play viola da gamba for food.

NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam.  If your message looks like spam I may not see it.

CDB - 22 Dec 2006 15:35 GMT
ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay,
I promise) in January 1997

We can hardly wait.
Richard Bollard - 02 Jan 2007 02:28 GMT
>ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay,
>I promise) in January 1997
>
>We can hardly wait.

This is a real opportunity to say "I can't wait" and deny my father's
ghost the opportunity to respond with "well don't then".
Signature

Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia

To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.

Pat Durkin - 21 Dec 2006 19:33 GMT
>>> I was not being so serious.  I, of course, have also seen references
>>> to Mr. Valentine as "Arjay".
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> same thing as if I were to say "Kay".  Otherwise, what's up with
> "Mattie" and "Maddie"?

Well, another puzzle.  You  have slipped and introduced another pair of
names.  My style is normally to "d"ify the double "t".  But Vinny Burgoo
(I think he is the one formerly known as Matti--unless he was Mickwick),
may preserve "t".

>>Just don't slip and pronounce it "Frances".
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> argue that a first name consisting of a single letter is a special
> case.)
It sounds as though you and she have a pretty good on-going
relationship.
So, her middle name is Frances.  I thought you were thinking of that
movie actress that I think "aarr" (ends his posts with an "r", posts
"from R. H. Draney) explained with a link.  And I was thinking of the
wrong spelling for the actress' surname.
And then there is "rzed" who does his own thing.

> The point, I guess, is that someone like Tony Cooper cannot just
> blindly turn a name like "RJ" into "Arjay".  He has no idea if the
> bearer of the name will accept that latter spelling.  I must have
> realized this when I met "K", for she does not always like it when
> others write down her name as "Kay".

Maybe in polite usage, as with K, you have to use the initial.  But even
if _you_ pronounce the K differently from Kay, she doesn't have to know
that, does she?
Come on, I'll bet when you say it the way you want to, you have that
secret smile.  (Aha, another place to use "sh.t-eating grin"!)

When people are acquainted on an informal basis for a length of time,
they may take liberties with peoples' names, or assign nicknames.  That
kind of "in talk" is a badge of membership.  It is assumed that if the
person who is so named feels uncomfortable with it, he will object, but
if he likes it, it is a kind of caress, or hug, or pat on the back.

If he doesn't correct the speaker, the "namer" goes on offending in all
ignorance.
This fall while visiting my niece, I addressed her husband as "Masa".  I
know I was told this was his nickname, at one time.  However, on the
trip back home I was told that he doesn't like that.  His name is
Masaharu, and his family and friends use that.  I see him once every 4
years or so, and operated on an assumption that I was correctly
informed.  He did not correct me, and I am appropriately chastened.
Daniel al-Autistiqui - 22 Dec 2006 18:36 GMT
>>>> I was not being so serious.  I, of course, have also seen references
>>>> to Mr. Valentine as "Arjay".
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>(I think he is the one formerly known as Matti--unless he was Mickwick),
>may preserve "t".

"Mattie"/"Maddie" was the best minimal pair I could come up with of
first names of the same gender (female, in this case) to illustrate
the flapped "t"s and "d"s, which occur in my accent in words like
"latter" and "ladder".  I don't think either one of those is seen very
often, but the names are attested on Google; I suppose they could be
diminutives of "Martha" and "Madison" respectively.

Many people are likely to regard "K", the name of my caretaker, as the
"same name" as "Kay" (although equating such phonetically homonymous
names has always seemed misleading to me).  If these people had an
accent like mine that merged medial "t" and "d", would they also
regard "Mattie" and "Maddie" as the same name?  That would make a case
for including flaps, which have traditionally been confined to
phonetic representations, in phonemic representations.

>>>Just don't slip and pronounce it "Frances".
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>wrong spelling for the actress' surname.
>And then there is "rzed" who does his own thing.

Yes, her middle name is Frances.  But when she was a child her parents
always called her "K".  She's never liked to be called "Frances" (or
"Fran", etc.) much, especially when this is not used in combination
with her first name.  The trouble arises from the fact that she
regularly includes her middle name in writing -- "K Frances LastName"
and not just "K LastName" or "K F. LastName".  This convention goes
back to the time she needed to get her driver's license.  She
originally signed it in the form "K LastName".  She found that she
eventually needed to bring her birth certificate, as they wanted
verification that her first name was just a plain "K".  When she
brought in her birth certificate, they had her re-sign the license
because they insisted on the inclusion of her middle name.

The result?  Lots of people come across pieces of mail addressed to "K
Frances LastName"; and, not knowing what to with the isolated letter
"K", they automatically address her as "Frances".  She might well say
something like, "Oh, do you mean, *K* Frances?"

>> The point, I guess, is that someone like Tony Cooper cannot just
>> blindly turn a name like "RJ" into "Arjay".  He has no idea if the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>Come on, I'll bet when you say it the way you want to, you have that
>secret smile.  (Aha, another place to use "sh.t-eating grin"!)

It's just very hard to speak her name.  I know it might seem that it
should be no harder than speaking the name "Kay", but in my mind it
seems silly to say "Kay" when I know perfectly well that that's not
her name.

Take a look at the following two sentences:

   I scored a hundred and one.
   I scored a hundred and won.

These sentences, when uttered, will probably sound identical.  And
they definitely have different meanings.  But what about these
sentences?:

   He said, "I scored a hundred and one."
   He said, "I scored a hundred and won."

Are the meanings still different in that case?  I'm tempted to say
yes.  But note the use of "said" which suggests something to do with
speech sounds or pronunciation, making it unclear as to whether the
meanings are actually different.  You could ask the same question
about "I said 'Hi, K!'" and "I said, 'Hi, Kay!'"

[...]

daniel mcgrath
Signature

Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"

Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
   Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
   & periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]

Tony Cooper - 22 Dec 2006 18:45 GMT
>>> You know that that's her *middle* name, don't you?  She strongly
>>> prefers her first name ("K").  (Whenever I talk her into accepting
>>> "Frances" she feels like she wants to call me "Gerard".  But I would
>>> argue that a first name consisting of a single letter is a special
>>> case.)

Which sets up employment of the old joke in "If you see K, tell her I
say it's OK to spell her name that way".

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Pat Durkin - 22 Dec 2006 22:00 GMT
>>Well, another puzzle.  You  have slipped and introduced another pair
>>of
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> often, but the names are attested on Google; I suppose they could be
> diminutives of "Martha" and "Madison" respectively.

There is the girl's name, Matilda, of course, but Mattie could have come
from Martha.  It all depends on how families set their kids up.  Martha
could be nicknamed Marty, as well.

> Many people are likely to regard "K", the name of my caretaker, as the
> "same name" as "Kay" (although equating such phonetically homonymous
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> for including flaps, which have traditionally been confined to
> phonetic representations, in phonemic representations.

Do you mean, include a symbolic representation for the flap?  Most
people, I think consider that the written form is complicated enough for
everyday use, and rely on the reader to judge the accent based on what
he says if he doesn't know how the writer speaks.  Picture a Daddy (or a
Mommy) reading out loud to his kid.  If he wants to indicate a certain
type of person--snooty, or from another place and time--he will
introduce pronunciations that differ from his everyday accent, just to
enhance the storytime.

>>>>Just don't slip and pronounce it "Frances".
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>> argue that a first name consisting of a single letter is a special
>>> case.)

Just don't let her call you Danny Boy.  OK?

>>So, her middle name is Frances.
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> "K", they automatically address her as "Frances".  She might well say
> something like, "Oh, do you mean, *K* Frances?"

She sounds so particular about some things.  I guess we all get that
way, and names are one of the things that delineate us as individuals.

>>> The point, I guess, is that someone like Tony Cooper cannot just
>>> blindly turn a name like "RJ" into "Arjay".  He has no idea if the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> seems silly to say "Kay" when I know perfectly well that that's not
> her name.

"Kay", a one-syllable name, is very abrupt.  But, then, so is Dan.  Of
course, I have known women named "Dee", short for Delores, Dolores, and
Dorothy.  Then they go and get nicknames like "Dee Dee" (Clinton's first
press secretary?)

Could you ask her if you could call her Kay Kay?  Do you think that
would be getting too familiar with her?  (An old song:
"Kay-kay-kay-kaytie, beautiful Kaytie! You're the one and only girl that
I adore!" Of course, that lyric is based on a stutter, but it was
written to match a tune.  The Andrews sisters of old also sang "The
cow-cow boogie".)  Oh, that singer who was popular a few years ago--KiKi
Dee.

Anyway, would it make it easier for you to say her one-syllable name if
you were to double it like that?    If it wouldn't come easier, then
muddle through the best you can.
> Take a look at the following two sentences:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Are the meanings still different in that case?

I think they are still different.
> I'm tempted to say
> yes.  But note the use of "said" which suggests something to do with
> speech sounds or pronunciation, making it unclear as to whether the
> meanings are actually different.

Context makes a lot of things clearer than isolated examples, especially
in speech.  The "and won", especially makes me wonder, did you win a
prize or a race?
> You could ask the same question
> about "I said 'Hi, K!'" and "I said, 'Hi, Kay!'"

Not sure what you mean, here.  Maybe "Hi, Kay!" as compared with "I
said, 'Hi, Kay!'"

Pat Durkin
durkinpa  @ msn.com
Pat Durkin - 23 Dec 2006 02:45 GMT
>>>Well, another puzzle.  You  have slipped and introduced another pair
>>>of
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
> Not sure what you mean, here.  Maybe "Hi, Kay!" as compared with "I
> said, 'Hi, Kay!'"

Sorry, Dan.  I answered that, and then I see that I didn't answer that.
I missed completely that you were saying "K" in one and "Kay" in the
other.  Oh, well, by the time you see this it will be after Xmas.  Hope
you have had a wonderful holiday.
R H Draney - 21 Dec 2006 18:28 GMT
Daniel al-Autistiqui filted:

>>>> [...] Arjay's [...]
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>What I was alluding more to was my caretaker named 'K'.  If RJ can be
>"Arjay", then why can't K be "Kay"?  (Or "Frances", for that matter.)

Kay Francis?...you mean this one?

 http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0290215/

I post under my initials, but I don't recall anyone actually referring to me as
"Arraitch"....r

Signature

"Keep your eye on the Bishop.  I want to know when
he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.

Maria - 24 Dec 2006 04:08 GMT
> I post under my initials, but I don't recall anyone actually
> referring to me as "Arraitch"....r

Oh, that sounds like a good name to call you, but I doubt that most
posters will do that. "Arraitch" takes longer to type and is much more
liable to being misspelled than "r" or "Ron."

Signature

Maria
There's only one 'n' in my email address, and it's not in my first name.
(The email address I use in this newsgroup is munged.)

R J Valentine - 20 Dec 2006 03:03 GMT
} On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 13:31:49 -0500, Daniel al-Autistiqui
} <govende30@hotmail.invalid> wrote:
}
}>On Tue, 19 Dec 2006 17:57:59 GMT, "Maria" <marian.c-b@sbcglobal.net>
}>wrote:
}>
}>>Daniel al-Autistiqui wrote:
}>>> Maria wrote:
}>>>> R J Valentine wrote:
}>>>>> Daniel al-Autistiqui wrote:
}>>>>> } Mark Brader wrote:
}>>>>>
}>>>>> }
}>>>>> } Rare? Rare?
}>>>>>
}>>>>> Inconceivable!
}>>>>
}>>>> Oh, I like that response.
}>>>>
}>>>> (And how about you, Daniel? Did you laugh, as I did?)
}>>>
}>>> No, not really.  If that's supposed to be some sort of joke, I don't
}>>> get it.
}>>
}>>Well, not so much a joke as a kind of wordplay. Various posters in this
}>>newsgroup are very good at that.
}>>
}>Yes, but I still can't seem to figure it out.  At any rate, it wasn't
}>funny to me.
}
} Don't feel badly, Daniel.  

Oy!   (Did you really mean to say that?)

}                            I don't get it either.  I don't even see
} the wordplay Maria seems to have caught.

That's because you've only seen _The Princess Bride_ the one time.  One
must see it at least once a year and have it practically memorized to
appreciate the world at large.  It leaves sentimental stuff like the
rubby something of Omar what's his name in the dust.

Signature

rjv

Tony Cooper - 20 Dec 2006 03:18 GMT
>} Don't feel badly, Daniel.  
>
>Oy!   (Did you really mean to say that?)

>}                            I don't get it either.  I don't even see
>} the wordplay Maria seems to have caught.
>
>That's because you've only seen _The Princess Bride_ the one time.

Didn't even watch the whole thing.  But I don't feel bad about it.

>One
>must see it at least once a year and have it practically memorized to
>appreciate the world at large.  It leaves sentimental stuff like the
>rubby something of Omar what's his name in the dust.

Signature

Tony Cooper
Orlando, FL

Daniel al-Autistiqui - 18 Dec 2006 18:46 GMT
Rare?

daniel mcgrath
Signature

Daniel Gerard McGrath, a/k/a "Govende":
for e-mail replace "invalid" with "com"

Developmentally disabled;
has Autism (Pervasive Developmental Disorder),
   Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder,
   & periodic bouts of depression.
[This signature is under construction.]

 
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