 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsEnglish UsageBritish EnglishESL Teaching Learnglish.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Porely
Hello: Is this "porely" Southern dialect for "poor"? Or "purely?" ---- One of the old ones looked up at me as though I had just come and said, "What you work at, boy?" "I don't," I said. "Porely?" he asked. "Not porely," I said. "It's just I lack ambition." All the King's Men, by Robert Penn Warren, p. 76 ----- Also in: ----- "Dey calls you pore, honey," she said softly, "but wen I sees dat bright gole watch and chain I knows better. Now I reckon dey would bring enough bright silver dollars at a juglar's shop to buy my ole man twice over agin! He is but porely, and our chilluns is all dead and gone, anyway, all but one, way down in New Orleans, an' ef I could git his free papers he might come here and jine his wife in freedom, even if Massa Jack Dillard did heir masta's estate. How much would dat watch and chain be worth, honey?" Miriam Monfort eBook http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/12453/242.html ------ Thanks. Marius Hancu On 25 Dec 2006, Marius Hancu wrote > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > All the King's Men, by Robert Penn Warren, p. 76 > ----- Your first guess is correct: the fellow's asking (in dialect pronunciation) if the boy is "poorly" -- sick/unable to work -- and the boy replies he's not sick (poorly), just not ambitious enough to get work.  SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 25 Dec 2006, Marius Hancu wrote > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the boy replies he's not sick (poorly), just not ambitious enough to > get work. The trouble with this kind of spelling is that "porely" give me no idea at all about the pronunciation. I would find it impossible to pronounce "poorly" and "porely" differently. To take to real words: pore and poor are homophones for me. For that matter, so is "paw", but that is my dialect. SignatureRob Bannister The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >> On 25 Dec 2006, Marius Hancu wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >"poorly" and "porely" differently. To take to real words: pore and poor >are homophones for me. For that matter, so is "paw", but that is my dialect. I have no idea how you might pronounce wither one, and no idea how to describe the way I'd pronounce "pore" without saying it rhymes with "chore", "door", and "more". The "oo" in "poor", however, rhymes with the "oo" in food, for me. Does it not for you? > The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >>> On 25 Dec 2006, Marius Hancu wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>"poorly" and "porely" differently. To take to real words: pore and poor >>are homophones for me. For that matter, so is "paw", but that is my dialect. > I have no idea how you might pronounce wither one, and no idea how to > describe the way I'd pronounce "pore" without saying it rhymes with > "chore", "door", and "more". The "oo" in "poor", however, rhymes with > the "oo" in food, for me. Does it not for you? Here's my data point: "poor" rhymes with "your," and "porely" (which I spell "poorly") fhymes with "yore." SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> "We have no opinion on your Arab - Arab conflicts, such as your dispute with Kuwait." -- Bush's Ambassador April Glaspie, giving Saddam Hussein the greenlight to invade Kuwait. >> The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Here's my data point: "poor" rhymes with "your," and "porely" > (which I spell "poorly") fhymes with "yore." In my dialect: Your house is a mighty fine house. "yer, or yore, pore" You're going, aren't you? "yer, or yoor as in pure or pour, poor", almost like "ewer". I have a very difficult time thinking of foot, food and other such double "oo"s in the same category as those words ending in an "r". Some dialects sound "whore" as "hoor(lure)", perhaps thinking that the latter pronunciation makes the word less objectionable in polite company. >> I have no idea how you might pronounce wither one, and no idea how to >> describe the way I'd pronounce "pore" without saying it rhymes with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Here's my data point: "poor" rhymes with "your," and "porely" > (which I spell "poorly") fhymes with "yore." And here's my data point: In my way of speaking, "your" rhymes with "yore". I don't make any distinction whatsoever when I pronounce those two words. They are exactly identical. "Tour/tore", however, are two completely different words. "Poor" rhymes with "tour". If I saw the word "poorly" I would pronounce the first syllable the same as I pronounce the word "poor", which definitely does not rhyme with "your". If I saw the word "porely", I would pronounce the first syllable the same way I pronounce "pore", which rhymes with "yore" and "ore" and "tore" and "fore" as well as "your". nancy g. /in New England > The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > "chore", "door", and "more". The "oo" in "poor", however, rhymes with > the "oo" in food, for me. Does it not for you? No, and having tried it, I have great difficulty in using my "food" vowel in "poor". SignatureRob Bannister >> The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > No, and having tried it, I have great difficulty in using my > "food" vowel in "poor". If you have a way to play audio files, the sound file this page <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=poorly> links to gives more-or-less that pronunciation, while the one on this page <http://www.bartleby.com/61/38/P0443800.html> gives something more like the "porely" pronunciation. If you're interested, that is. To be sure, in some dialects on either side of the pond (and for all I know, of the Big Pond), "poorly" would be purely indistinguishable from "porely". Here in Virginia, I am likely to hear either pronunciation. Signaturerzed >>No, and having tried it, I have great difficulty in using my >>"food" vowel in "poor". > > If you have a way to play audio files, the sound file this page > <http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=poorly> > links to gives more-or-less that pronunciation, I listened to it several times, but have difficulty in identifying the opening vowel exactly. The problem is, when you hear a different dialect, the brain automatically starts "translating", so I'm still not sure whether I'm hearing "paw-a-li", "puerli" or what. I am aware that most English speakers have a diphthong in "poor" and that I usually don't, but my efforts at reproducing the "book" vowel in the word sound like something Scottish. SignatureRob Bannister >>>No, and having tried it, I have great difficulty in using my >>>"food" vowel in "poor". [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > but my efforts at reproducing the "book" vowel in the word sound > like something Scottish. That's an interesting point. Would you say that you can distinguish *some* difference between the two sound clips, or is it more that either is close enough to some intermediate pronunciation that you "hear" that (possibly inflected) pronunciation? To me, the two clips are quite different, but neither seems exactly the same as what I would say were I to pronounce the words carefully. How do linguists deal with this issue? Are all transcriptions suspect because of the inner-ear involvement? Or is sufficient training supposed to neutralize that? (I'm not insisting you answer those questions, Rob, but I do wonder about them.) Signaturerzed >>>>No, and having tried it, I have great difficulty in using my >>>>"food" vowel in "poor". [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > neither seems exactly the same as what I would say were I to > pronounce the words carefully. Sorry, when I wrote I had not listened to the second version. Yes, they are quite different: the Bartelby one sounds more like "pearly" to me; it certainly does not appear to have a diphthong, but I'm not sure what the vowel is - to me, it sounds sort of like V, but possibly rounded - but now I seem to be describing a German ö sound, which is quite different. I'm confused. SignatureRob Bannister >> On 25 Dec 2006, Marius Hancu wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >"poorly" and "porely" differently. To take to real words: pore and poor >are homophones for me. For that matter, so is "paw", but that is my dialect. They're usually pretty much identical to me, as well (BrE, more or less RP, non-rhotic). What's fascinating is that I've just realised that I pronounce the word in slightly different ways according to context. Normally I'd rhyme it with "paw" and "ore" (non-rhotic here, remember). But when it's followed by another vowel sound, I become slightly rhotic, and the vowel sound edges towards an "oo". I have a suspiscion that's the Yorkshire side of my upbringing coming out. If I were to say, "Poor old Fred - used to be rich, now he's poor", it would come out somewhere along the lines of "Poo rold Fred - used to be rich, now he's paw". Cheers - Ian In our last episode, <50Rjh.14101$wZ4.248973@weber.videotron.net>, the lovely and talented Marius Hancu broadcast on alt.usage.english: > Hello: > Is this "porely" Southern dialect for "poor"? > Or "purely?" I find the same word in Cather, evidently meaning in poor health or poor spirits. ("No, Mandy, I'm right porely," Mrs. Harris admitted. --- Obscure Destinies.) I do not know if this is supposed to suggest a dialectal pronunciation of "poorly" or whether it is conceived of as a different word (perhaps suggested by the small component of the meaning of "pore"). In the dialect, "puny" is a near synonym. ("I'm feeling puny" = weak, as if small) > ---- > One of the old ones looked up at me as though I had just come and > said, "What you work at, boy?" > "I don't," I said. > "Porely?" he asked. > "Not porely," I said. "It's just I lack ambition." > All the King's Men, by Robert Penn Warren, p. 76 > ----- > Also in: > ----- [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > even if Massa Jack Dillard did heir masta's estate. How much would > dat watch and chain be worth, honey?" > Miriam Monfort eBook > http://www.bookrags.com/ebooks/12453/242.html > ------ > Thanks. > Marius Hancu SignatureLars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner> War on Terrorism: Bad News from the Sanity Front "In this autumn of anger, even a liberal can find his thoughts turning to ... torture." --Jonathan Alter,_Newsweek_ On 25 Dec 2006, Lars Eighner wrote > In our last episode, ><50Rjh.14101$wZ4.248973@weber.videotron.net>, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > or poor spirits. ("No, Mandy, I'm right porely," Mrs. Harris > admitted. --- Obscure Destinies.) It's still in common usage in England. It tends to mean "quite gravely ill", and not (as one might expect) "just a tad unwell". SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van >On 25 Dec 2006, Lars Eighner wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >It tends to mean "quite gravely ill", and not (as one might expect) >"just a tad unwell". Yes, indeed. But where did this "porely" spelling come from? It's quite clearly "poorly", as its pronunciation in Lancashire (where it's a very common idiom) shows: ['pu@lI]. SignatureBrad Germolene ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay, I promise) in January 2007. > >On 25 Dec 2006, Lars Eighner wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >It tends to mean "quite gravely ill", and not (as one might expect) > >"just a tad unwell". AFAIAC it's a synonym of "unwell". > Yes, indeed. But where did this "porely" spelling come from? It's > quite clearly "poorly", as its pronunciation in Lancashire (where it's > a very common idiom) shows: ['pu@lI]. It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's how it's pronounced by the character. Adrian On 26 Dec 2006, Adrian Bailey wrote >>> It tends to mean "quite gravely ill", and not (as one might >>> expect) "just a tad unwell". > > AFAIAC it's a synonym of "unwell". Interesting; I've always put it in the 'known understatement' category. I even recall when I realised this. Many years ago, a friend's young daughter -- aged 7, maybe 8 -- told us "my grandma's poorly"; our friends had been preparing her for the possible death of said grandmother, and the child clearly knew that her grandma was more than just 'unwell'. SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's how it's > pronounced by the character. Full circle: how does "porely" differ from "poorly", since "pore" and "poor" are homophones? SignatureRob Bannister On 26 Dec 2006, Robert Bannister wrote >> It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's >> how it's pronounced by the character. > > Full circle: how does "porely" differ from "poorly", since > "pore" and "poor" are homophones? They aren't when I say them. Pore: rhymes with for Poor: rhymes with moor SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 26 Dec 2006, Robert Bannister wrote > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Pore: rhymes with for > Poor: rhymes with moor My point exactly: they are the same for me, even if they are not for you. That is why eye dialect doesn't work for all readers. If I gave "moor" a diphthong, most people I know would think I was trying to imitate a Yorkshireman or a Scotsman, depending on the first vowel. "Moor" = "maw" to me. SignatureRob Bannister > > On 26 Dec 2006, Robert Bannister wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Pore: rhymes with for > > Poor: rhymes with moor For me, "poor" and "moor" rhyme with "door". And these all rhyme with "more", "ore" and "bore". SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>>> Adrian Bailey wrote: >>>>> It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's >>>>> how it's pronounced by the character. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > For me, "poor" and "moor" rhyme with "door". And these all rhyme with > "more", "ore" and "bore". Yeah, but you talk funny. "Poor" and "moor" rhyme with "sure". "Door" rhymes with "more", "ore", and "bore". SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > >>>> Adrian Bailey wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > "Poor" and "moor" rhyme with "sure". "Door" rhymes with "more", "ore", and > "bore". But "sure" rhymes with "her", "sir", "fur" and "myrrh"! SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >But "sure" rhymes with "her", "sir", "fur" and "myrrh"! Out of some mouths maybe, but out of mine and those of many people I know "sure" rhymes with "shore". Others pronounce it as "shoo-er". SignaturePeter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english) >>>>>> Adrian Bailey wrote: >>>>>>> It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's >>>>>>> how it's pronounced by the character. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > But "sure" rhymes with "her", "sir", "fur" and "myrrh"! Good grief! You really do talk funny! SignatureSkitt (in Hayward, California) http://www.geocities.com/opus731/ > Good grief! You really do talk funny! Odd, because I come from Alameda County, too! SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> Good grief! You really do talk funny! > >Odd, because I come from Alameda County, too! Skitt doesn't. He just lives there. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >> Yeah, but you talk funny. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >But "sure" rhymes with "her", "sir", "fur" and "myrrh"! Surely, "sure" rhymes with "pure" and not "purr"?! > Surely, "sure" rhymes with "pure" and not "purr"?! Now that is the weirdest one so far. I may have heard a sure/purr speaker, but I have never before come across a sure/pure speaker. SignatureRob Bannister >> Surely, "sure" rhymes with "pure" and not "purr"?! > > Now that is the weirdest one so far. I may have heard a sure/purr > speaker, but I have never before come across a sure/pure speaker. Well, I have heard people say "assure" as in "pure". But that is with "a.s", and not "ash". (Likewise assume--an a.s out of u and me.) > > Surely, "sure" rhymes with "pure" and not "purr"?! > > Now that is the weirdest one so far. I may have heard a sure/purr > speaker, but I have never before come across a sure/pure speaker. I can get them close but not exactly rhyming - enough to pass in poetry, though. A friend's Scottish mother rhymes them very neatly, as do my husband's family (Bolton). My father-in-law rhymes 'sure', 'pure', and 'poor' with 'ewer', to my ear. (Distinguishing pyu-er from pu-er, of course.) Husband veers between 'syu-er' and 'shore' depending on how southern he's feeling at the time. Jac >> > Surely, "sure" rhymes with "pure" and not "purr"?! >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >pu-er, of course.) Husband veers between 'syu-er' and 'shore' >depending on how southern he's feeling at the time. As someone born about 10 miles west of your husband, but living 150 miles south, I'm exactly the same. Sure, poor and moor can be nearly disyllabic. SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon On Jan 2, 1:00 pm, Nick Atty <1-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote: > >I can get them close but not exactly rhyming - enough to pass in > >poetry, though. A friend's Scottish mother rhymes them very neatly, as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > miles south, I'm exactly the same. Sure, poor and moor can be nearly > disyllabic. As can "Moore"...I'm now hearing Jonathan Miller as Bertrand Russell....r >On Jan 2, 1:00 pm, Nick Atty <1-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >As can "Moore"...I'm now hearing Jonathan Miller as Bertrand >Russell....r Indeed. I have a friend with that surname from the NE, who we regularly refer to, in an exaggerated manner, as Mr Moo-er, because that's how he says his name. SignatureOn-line canal route planner: http://www.canalplan.org.uk (Waterways World site of the month, April 2001) My Reply-To address *is* valid, though likely to die soon > >> Yeah, but you talk funny. > >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Surely, "sure" rhymes with "pure" and not "purr"?! Nah, "pure" rhymes with "skewer" and "fewer"! SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >For me, "poor" and "moor" rhyme with "door". And these all rhyme with >"more", "ore" and "bore". So "porely" is "eye dialect"? Where is Raymond Wise when we need him? SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk >>For me, "poor" and "moor" rhyme with "door". And these all rhyme >>with "more", "ore" and "bore". > > So "porely" is "eye dialect"? It would seem not to be (mostly not, anyway) in this case, at least, if I have understood Raymond correctly. There are different ways to pronounce the word, and the differences may well have been class markers in the context of the novel. To that extent, "porely" suggests a class other than the one that would use the "normal" version, represented by "poorly". But because there are two distinct pronunciations, it is legitimate to use different orthography. The intent is to convey the pronunciation to the reader, or at least it could be interpreted that way. Ray's "eye dialect" would be something like spelling "listen" as "lissen", where the pronunciation would be the same in either case. The sole reason for the spelling difference would be to mark the speaker as illiterate. Of course, I could be misunderstanding him. > Where is Raymond Wise when we need him? Indeed. Signaturerzed >> It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's how it's >> pronounced by the character. > >Full circle: how does "porely" differ from "poorly", since "pore" and >"poor" are homophones? I'm not about to try a sound thingy again, but the pronunciation of "porely" and "poorly" can differ. "Poorly" can have an ooooo sound that "porely" dasn't. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >> It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's how it's >> pronounced by the character. > >Full circle: how does "porely" differ from "poorly", since "pore" and >"poor" are homophones? I thought it was quite clear. They are definitely not homophones in the dialect in which the passage was written. "porely" denotes a pronunciation quite unlike "poorly". >>> It's spelled "porely" in the book in order to show that that's how it's >>> pronounced by the character. >> Full circle: how does "porely" differ from "poorly", since "pore" and >> "poor" are homophones? > I thought it was quite clear. They are definitely not homophones in > the dialect in which the passage was written. "porely" denotes a > pronunciation quite unlike "poorly". Without having read the book, I see two possibilities. Either (1) the writer uses a dialect where "poorly" and "porely" sound different, and wants to show that the character doesn't; or (2) the writer also pronounces them the same, but wants to suggest that the character is so ignorant that *he would spell the word* "porely". If you search for old threads on eye dialect, you'll see this latter style of writing discussed. SignatureMark Brader, Toronto "Tools, not solutions. :-)" msb@vex.net -- Henry Spencer My text in this article is in the public domain. Poorly is also in use in the S. W. of England, sometimes coined as 'proper poorly', with a meaning of sickly or unwell. Usage in the South is more west-country oriented than the north east. I should say that 'proper poorly' is from Cornwall, and don't know if this term is used in Devon Somerset or Dorset. I would guess that your citations have each a different sense. Phil > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Thanks. > Marius Hancu |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2012 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.