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Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2006Is the r in macabre used as a vowel?
Is the r in macabre used as a vowel? Especially in the pronunciation given in dictionaries without using the final e. > Is the r in macabre used as a vowel? Especially in the pronunciation > given in dictionaries without using the final e. It's a half-vowel in the French original, so you get various pronunciations in English, including one that leaves out the "r" entirely" _m@'kA:b_, if I've got the vowel right. The one I hear most commonly has an "a" as in "father" and includes the "r" and a following schwa (_m@'kA:br@_), with a final syllable like that of "cobra" in "cobra venom". (In the word "cobra" pronounced alone, I find the "a" is too far to the front of the mouth to be called a schwa.) I live in central Canada and speak, and mostly hear, North American English. > Is the r in macabre used as a vowel? Especially in the pronunciation > given in dictionaries without using the final e. I don't quite get what you mean. The first pronunciation given at the M-W.com dictionary site stops with the B -- both the R and E are silent. Then it gives three more accepted pronunciations, in each case the E being the vowel, naturally. A schwa, but still a vowel. In the word candelabra, do you agree that the R is not a vowel? How about theatre? Does some other dictionary choose spell out the pronunciation with an R but no E? Which dictionary is that?  SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>Is the r in macabre used as a vowel? Especially in the pronunciation >>given in dictionaries without using the final e. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Then it gives three more accepted pronunciations, in each case the E > being the vowel, naturally. A schwa, but still a vowel. Not a criticism, but I think you've left something out here, as it's not clear whether the pronunciation is "m@-ka-b@" or "m@-ka-br@". > In the word candelabra, do you agree that the R is not a vowel? How > about theatre? > > Does some other dictionary choose spell out the pronunciation with an R > but no E? Which dictionary is that? While for us non-rhotic speakers, the word is definitely "m@-ka-b@" or possibly "m@-ka-ba", I am guessing that the speaker is thinking of a strong American R which might, for some speakers, take over the role of the vowel: "m@-ka-bR". I'm not saying this is fact, but it is possible and no-one has yet mentioned that. SignatureRob Bannister > >>Is the r in macabre used as a vowel? Especially in the pronunciation > >>given in dictionaries without using the final e. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Not a criticism, but I think you've left something out here, as it's not > clear whether the pronunciation is "m@-ka-b@" or "m@-ka-br@". I didn't think it was necessary to reproduce all four pronunciations, or even possible, given that we can't copy special symbols here like schwas. Anyone who wants to know what the other three pronunciations were will find them at www.m-w.com . > > In the word candelabra, do you agree that the R is not a vowel? How > > about theatre? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the vowel: "m@-ka-bR". I'm not saying this is fact, but it is possible > and no-one has yet mentioned that. I've seen no response yet from the original poster; perhaps his or her question, whatever it was, was answered at some point. SignatureBest -- Donna Richoux >>>>Is the r in macabre used as a vowel? Especially in the pronunciation >>>>given in dictionaries without using the final e. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > schwas. Anyone who wants to know what the other three pronunciations > were will find them at www.m-w.com . I was interested to see that 3 of them do, in fact, include the r - I don't think I've heard that. More likely, if I did, I overlooked (overheard) it. There's no r in my pronunciation unless I'm speaking French. I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not yet been fully anglicised. SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r I certainly do (I rhyme macabre with candelabra), and until now I thought everyone else did as well. Not that it's a word I hear spoken a lot. > - we certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. > Perhaps macabre has not yet been fully anglicised. Far from it. SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r > >I certainly do (I rhyme macabre with candelabra), and until now I >thought everyone else did as well. Not that it's a word I hear spoken a >lot. I do. Say it like you, that is. Actually, there's more of a schwa at the end of candelabra (candelabruh) than at the end of macabre (macabr) but the difference is slight. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >>In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the end of candelabra (candelabruh) than at the end of macabre > (macabr) but the difference is slight. How do you "bra/br" guys go on "calibre"? SignatureRob Bannister >>>In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >How do you "bra/br" guys go on "calibre"? As in 'centre'. The 'r' is only there to give some oomph to the 'e'. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! >>>> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > As in 'centre'. The 'r' is only there to give some oomph to the 'e'. Difficult word, that - in my head I always hear Tony Hancock saying "cal-eye-ber". SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>>>> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Difficult word, that - in my head I always hear Tony Hancock saying > "cal-eye-ber". Stuck Comedian Syndrome? SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, LFS wrote: >>> How do you "bra/br" guys go on "calibre"? >>> >> As in 'centre'. The 'r' is only there to give some oomph to the 'e'. > >Difficult word, that - in my head I always hear Tony Hancock saying >"cal-eye-ber". Me too. I was surprised to see NSOED endorsing "cal-EE-ber". SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >In alt.usage.english, LFS wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Me too. I was surprised to see NSOED endorsing "cal-EE-ber". Identical to the last three syllables of "Excalibur" for me. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>>> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> > As in 'centre'. The 'r' is only there to give some oomph to the 'e'. So why pick on macabre as an exception? SignatureRob Bannister >>>>> In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >So why pick on macabre as an exception? Perhaps it's its Gothickness. I don't know why there are exceptions: I often wonder why I persist in saying garage in that funny pseudo-French way, instead of garridge, or why I say onvelope and not envelope. One is the victim of one's childhood, one supposes, and grows attached to these things as a sign of one's being what one is. One ploughs one's dogged furrow, lonely though it may sometimes be. Doesn't one? SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! > I don't know why there are exceptions: I often wonder why I persist in > saying garage in that funny pseudo-French way, instead of garridge, or > why I say onvelope and not envelope. One is the victim of one's > childhood, one supposes, and grows attached to these things as a sign of > one's being what one is. One ploughs one's dogged furrow, lonely though > it may sometimes be. Doesn't one? True. I use both pronunciations of envelope (the noun, of course, but that's what you meant) and 3 for garage (garridge, GA-raj and ga-RAZH). I have never bothered to work out whether my choice in influenced by the people I am talking to or whether it's purely random. It is even possible that I sometimes say "macabre" with a sort of French pronunciation, but with a light eu (as in "feu"), but normally it's "muh-KAh-buh". SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>> How do you "bra/br" guys go on "calibre"? >>> >> As in 'centre'. The 'r' is only there to give some oomph to the 'e'. > >So why pick on macabre as an exception? You make it sound like a conscious choice, which of course it isn't. Those two words are simply at different points on the journey to Proper Englishness. The foreignness of the penultimate vowel sound might be a factor holding "macabre" back; see also "timbre". SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > You make it sound like a conscious choice, which of course it isn't. > Those two words are simply at different points on the journey to Proper > Englishness. The foreignness of the penultimate vowel sound might be a > factor holding "macabre" back; see also "timbre". Another interesting example. I'm pretty certain most people I've heard make no difference between "timber" and "timbre", but when I read it just now, I automatically gave it a full French sound in my head. I don't think I'd dare do that in public. SignatureRob Bannister In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >I'm pretty certain most people I've heard make no difference between >"timber" and "timbre", but when I read it just now, I automatically >gave it a full French sound in my head. I don't think I'd dare do that >in public. It's not a word I come across in conversation, but I do hear it on BBC Radio 3 quite a lot, and it seems to have the "cat" vowel. I suspect that anyone who pronounced "timbre" like "timber" in the UK would be completely misunderstood. It's "TAM-b(r)(uh)". SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England > In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>I'm pretty certain most people I've heard make no difference between [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > that anyone who pronounced "timbre" like "timber" in the UK would be > completely misunderstood. It's "TAM-b(r)(uh)". I can't recall that I've ever heard an American musician (or, come to think of it, anyone else) pronounce it like "timber". It's usually a anglicized approximation of the French, TAM-br(uh). Perhaps sometimes it comes out more like like TAM-ber (like "timber" with a different vowel in the first syllable) -- in either case with the "a" of "cat", just as on Radio 3. A more fully French pronunciation is also occasionally attempted, which can easily sound quite, well, _prétencieux_, and which in any event is as like as not to fall short and come out with the wrong vowel: either unnasalized or the wrong nasal. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > > In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: > > > I'm pretty certain most people I've heard make no difference between [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I can't recall that I've ever heard an American musician (or, come to think > of it, anyone else) pronounce it like "timber". I, on the other hand have heard many American musicians pronounce "timber" and "timbre" identically. > -- > Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. [OT]Also a viol player, though not professionally[/OT] SignatureClark S. Cox III clarkcox3@gmail.com [re "timbre"]> >> I can't recall that I've ever heard an American musician (or, come to think >> of it, anyone else) pronounce it like "timber". > > I, on the other hand have heard many American musicians pronounce > "timber" and "timbre" identically. Me too. I've heard both "timber" and "tamber" (never "tambruh") pronunciations from Americans; "tamber" seems more pretentious and music-educatorish to me. SignatureSalvatore Volatile > [re "timbre"]> >>> I can't recall that I've ever heard an American musician (or, come [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > pronunciations from Americans; "tamber" seems more pretentious and > music-educatorish to me. How about the spelling? (timber/timbre) Do you think the people who say "tamber" would spell it "-bre"? And if people stop at "macab'", why don't they stop with "tamb'"? How about "centimeter"(-tre)? First time I heard it pronounced "sontimeter" was as an undergraduate when some math majors were putting on the dog. Don't hear the French version very often. And pronouncing "theatre"--whoever stops at "te-at'" Oops. Spelling gets to be more of a problem than pronunciation. > [re "timbre"]> >>> I can't recall that I've ever heard an American musician (or, come to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > pronunciations from Americans; "tamber" seems more pretentious and > music-educatorish to me. No sheep will be awarded for guessing who I hang out with. I'd say "academic" rather than "educator-ish", though, since university and conservatory faculty say it that way, too. On the other hand, maybe my memory is just faulty or I haven't been paying attention. SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>>In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >How do you "bra/br" guys go on "calibre"? Fully Anglicised ("KAL-i-buh"). NSOED's first pronunciations are /m<schwa>"kA:br(<schwa>)/ and /"kalIb<schwa>/ (the parentheses indicate "optional"). SignatureMike Barnes Cheshire, England >>>In alt.usage.english, Robert Bannister wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >How do you "bra/br" guys go on "calibre"? Kalibuh. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary >I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not >yet been fully anglicised. On the rare occasions when I'm called upon to say it, I think I pronounce macabre to rhyme with Harborough. I'm surprised at myself, though. SignatureKaty Jennison spamtrap: remove the first two letters after the @ >>I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >>certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >pronounce macabre to rhyme with Harborough. I'm surprised at myself, >though. I go the whole "Dordoin/"Le Hahv" hog and do away with that final froggy schwa altogether: "muh-KAHB". SignatureBrad Germolene ADVANCE REMONIKERIZATION ALERT: Archie Valparaiso is coming (to stay, I promise) in January 2007. >>I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >>certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pronounce macabre to rhyme with Harborough. I'm surprised at myself, > though. I do, too. I think it's because rolling that r adds to the rather theatrical emphasis of the word. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >>I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >>certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >pronounce macabre to rhyme with Harborough. I'm surprised at myself, >though. I like the idea that Market Harborough might be one of those odd English placenames that bamboozles furriners by being pronounced 'macabre'. But I don't think it'll catch on. I'm with the macabr' version, by the way, and I'm as non-rhotic as they come. My r's may as well be elbows in most of my speech. SignaturePaul In bocca al Lupo! >>> I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >>> certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > placenames that bamboozles furriners by being pronounced 'macabre'. But > I don't think it'll catch on. I didn't realise that was the Harborough that Katy was referring to - sounds like "mekkit airbra" the way I learnt it from grandma. However, I don't find the place macabre. > I'm with the macabr' version, by the way, and I'm as non-rhotic as they > come. My r's may as well be elbows in most of my speech. Now I've forgotten: is it the witch, in Pratchett's Free Wee Men, who feels things with/through her elbows, in the way others do with their heart? SignatureRob Bannister >>> I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >>> certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I'm with the macabr' version, by the way, and I'm as non-rhotic as > they come. My r's may as well be elbows in most of my speech. Lucky third! Arms, legs, and now, "r"s akimbo. >>I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >>certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pronounce macabre to rhyme with Harborough. I'm surprised at myself, > though. Are you saying that, for you, it's macaboro? SignatureRob Bannister >>>I do wonder whether any non-rhotic BrE speakers include the r - we >>>certainly don't in words like theatre or centre. Perhaps macabre has not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >Are you saying that, for you, it's macaboro? I doubt it, because that's not how Harborough is pronounced. It's more Harbruh. SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/macabre.html has its second pronunciation as if it were macabr. But I now see the goof that I've made, in assuming that a vowel is needed to make a syllable. Not so in bot-tl (bottle) and brrr. > > Is the r in macabre used as a vowel? Especially in the pronunciation > > given in dictionaries without using the final e. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Does some other dictionary choose spell out the pronunciation with an R > but no E? Which dictionary is that? |
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