How to convert Celsius to Fahrenheit - sorta
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LaReina del Perros - 29 Dec 2006 00:10 GMT http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061228/D8MA4B7O0.html
"Some of the ice shelf's disappearance was probably during times when the planet was 36 degrees Fahrenheit (2 degrees Celsius) to 37 degrees Fahrenheit (3 degrees Celsius) warmer than it is today..."
Peter Duncanson - 29 Dec 2006 01:34 GMT >http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061228/D8MA4B7O0.html > >"Some of the ice shelf's disappearance was probably during times when >the planet was 36 degrees Fahrenheit (2 degrees Celsius) to 37 degrees >Fahrenheit (3 degrees Celsius) warmer than it is today..." That is bizarre.
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rzed - 29 Dec 2006 02:20 GMT >>http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061228/D8MA4B7O0.html >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > That is bizarre. Just missing a comma, I'm sure. ", warmer than...". See? It works out.
Although it's in the fifties here today, so maybe it doesn't work so well.
So how do you think this whole thing came about? It seems to me it must have originally been something like "... was 2 to 3 degrees warmer ..." before some copy editor said the scale had to be specified, making it "... was 2 to 3 degrees Celsius warmer ...". Then the copy editor might have noticed the article had to be Americanized, so the loony translation to Fahrenheit took place. ("Well let's see. Two degrees Celsius is about ... mmm ... Hey Lou! How do you convert Celsius to Fahrenheit again? Yeah? Okay. So 2 Celsius is about 36 Fahrenheit. Got it") But after that madness, what compulsion required each of the approximate degrees to be specified in two different scales individually? Who writes this stuff? Do they get paid?
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Mike Barnes - 29 Dec 2006 13:39 GMT In alt.usage.english, rzed wrote:
>>>http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061228/D8MA4B7O0.html >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >madness, what compulsion required each of the approximate degrees >to be specified in two different scales individually? Quite. Also, why did the original Celsius degrees end up in parentheses? It's the computed Fahrenheit degrees that should have been in parentheses.
>Who writes >this stuff? By NATE JENKINS
> Do they get paid? I'm afraid they probably do.
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Prai Jei - 30 Dec 2006 11:45 GMT Mike Barnes (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message <HvZfq1K6pRlFFw0u@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>:
> Quite. Also, why did the original (sic) Celsius degrees end up in > parentheses? It's the computed Fahrenheit degrees that should have been > in parentheses. Because °F is what we *use*, what we *think* in. The °F are therefore the *original* degrees. As a courtesy to those who would rather use a scale devised by a Swede instead of by a German, for no other reason than that they can't use big numbers, we supply a computed translation.
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Amethyst Deceiver - 30 Dec 2006 14:01 GMT >Mike Barnes (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message ><HvZfq1K6pRlFFw0u@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Because °F is what we *use*, what we *think* in. The °F are therefore the Who is this "we"?
>*original* degrees. As a courtesy to those who would rather use a scale >devised by a Swede instead of by a German, for no other reason than that >they can't use big numbers, we supply a computed translation.
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rzed - 30 Dec 2006 14:47 GMT > Mike Barnes (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in > message <HvZfq1K6pRlFFw0u@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > German, for no other reason than that they can't use big > numbers, we supply a computed translation. That seems very unlikely in this case. The article was quoting a Kiwi, for one thing, so "we" is likely to have been "they"[1]. And just looking at the numbers, it seems highly unlikely that the earth was simultaneously 36 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than it is today and was busily melting ice packs. Not that they wouldn't melt, but unless they were dropped from Mars[2], they wouldn't have been there to melt in the first place.
[1] Nothing against New Zealand, but the odds of people being from someplace else are pretty large. Kiwis are thus more likely to be "they" than "we".
[2] Thereby accounting for the paucity of water on Mars. Velikovsky would be proud.
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HVS - 30 Dec 2006 18:44 GMT On 30 Dec 2006, rzed wrote
>> Mike Barnes (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in >> message <HvZfq1K6pRlFFw0u@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That seems very unlikely in this case. The article was quoting a > Kiwi, for one thing, so "we" is likely to have been "they"[1]. And as Mike noted, it was a scientist being quoted. Don't all scientists -- even US ones -- use Celsius as the default system for research?
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Jeffrey Turner - 31 Dec 2006 01:17 GMT > On 30 Dec 2006, rzed wrote >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > scientists -- even US ones -- use Celsius as the default system for > research? When not using Kelvin temperatures. Doesn't mean the journalist who wrote the thing up knew what they were doing.
--Jeff
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jcrinnion@yahoo.com - 04 Jan 2007 12:10 GMT <SNIP>
> When not using Kelvin temperatures. Doesn't mean the journalist who > wrote the thing up knew what they were doing. 'Knew what HE was doing.'
> --Jeff > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > since for him, the spinal cord would fully suffice." > --Albert Einstein Amethyst Deceiver - 05 Jan 2007 14:40 GMT ><SNIP> > >> When not using Kelvin temperatures. Doesn't mean the journalist who >> wrote the thing up knew what they were doing. > >'Knew what HE was doing.' Gosh, that time already?
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Mark Brader - 05 Jan 2007 15:58 GMT Jeff Turner:
>>> When not using Kelvin temperatures. Doesn't mean the journalist who >>> wrote the thing up knew what they were doing. John Crinnion:
>> 'Knew what HE was doing.' Linz Endell:
> Gosh, that time already? The byline gives the writer's first name as Nate, so I think it's reasonable to assume that "he" is correct. However, perhaps Jeff didn't check the name. I can't see anything wrong with that.
Speaking of journalists who don't know what they're doing, a picture in today's Toronto Star shows a freight train derailment in British Columbia's Fraser Canyon -- and both the headline and the caption refer to a diesel locomotive as a "train car".
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Oleg Lego - 05 Jan 2007 18:43 GMT The Mark Brader entity posted thusly:
>Jeff Turner: >>>> When not using Kelvin temperatures. Doesn't mean the journalist who [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >reasonable to assume that "he" is correct. However, perhaps Jeff >didn't check the name. I can't see anything wrong with that. "he" or "she", shirley not "they".
>Speaking of journalists who don't know what they're doing, a picture >in today's Toronto Star shows a freight train derailment in British >Columbia's Fraser Canyon -- and both the headline and the caption >refer to a diesel locomotive as a "train car". Mike Barnes - 30 Dec 2006 18:36 GMT In alt.usage.english, Prai Jei wrote:
>Mike Barnes (or somebody else of the same name) wrote thusly in message ><HvZfq1K6pRlFFw0u@34klh41lk4h1lk34h3lk4h1k4.invalid>: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Because °F is what we *use*, what we *think* in. The °F are therefore the >*original* degrees. No, the original information came from a scientist. He/she would not think in Fahrenheit degrees.
> As a courtesy to those who would rather use a scale >devised by a Swede instead of by a German, for no other reason than that >they can't use big numbers, we supply a computed translation. Most people use Celsius degrees because most other people use Celsius degrees. It's nothing to do with national prejudice.
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eromlignod - 05 Jan 2007 19:34 GMT We must be careful to distinguish between "degrees Celsius" and "Celsius degrees", which are two entirely different concepts. I think the author of the quoted phrase did not take this into account.
A quantity quoted in "degrees Celsius" describes an actual temperature measurement based on water freezing at 0 and boiling at 100 degrees. This can be converted directly to "degrees Fahrenheit", which is also a temperature measurement.
If we are talking about "Celsius degrees" then we mean the degrees themselves and their relative "size". They do *not* refer to an actual temperature measurement. When they are converted to "Fahrenheit degrees", a completely different conversion is used. So, for example, if the outdoor temperature changes from 25 to 30 degrees Celsius (actual temperature measurements), we can say that the temperature has "risen by 5 Celsius Degrees". Note that this figure has absolutely nothing to do with the actual temperature of "5 degrees Celsius".
If you wanted to convert the *difference* in temperature of 5 Celsius degrees to Fahrenheit degrees, you can simply multiply by 1.8, giving you 9 Fahrenheit degrees change in temperature, since there are 1.8 Fahrenheit degrees in a degree Celsius. If, on the other hand, you want to convert the actual temperature of 5 C to F, you must use the formula 5 * C / 9 + 32, which gives you 41 F.
Actually, Celsius is seldom used in the scientific, thermodynamic world for precisely this reason. We use Kelvins...yes Kelvins, not "degrees Kelvin". The Kelvin scale is based on an absolute zero temperature, so it can be used as a temperature measurement *or* a temperature difference interchangeably using all the same formulas. It has the same "size" of degrees as Celsius. There is also an equivalent system that uses the Fahrenheit degree-size as its base, with units of "Rankines".
Incidentally, the "metric" units of temperature do not really have the inherent advantages of other metric measurements. The fact that the degrees are based on the freezing and boiling temperatures of water divided by 100, doesn't really facilitate anything and there is really no advantage over the Fahrenheit system. In fact, Fahrenheit degrees are more precise since the size of the degrees are considerably smaller.
Don Mechanical Engineer Kansas City
Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2007 21:54 GMT > inherent advantages of other metric measurements. The fact that the > degrees are based on the freezing and boiling temperatures of water I have some vague memory of a science lesson in my first year at high school that explained how the various temperature scales were derived, but I have long forgotten. Most people know that Celsius is based on the freezing and boiling temperatures of water, but can anybody remember what the weird Fahrenheit scale is based on? I have a vague idea that 0° F might be the freezing point of alcohol, but I don't know, and I have no idea at all what 100° F was supposed to be: wrongly measured blood temperature?
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Eric Schwartz - 05 Jan 2007 22:01 GMT > I have some vague memory of a science lesson in my first year at high > school that explained how the various temperature scales were derived, > but I have long forgotten. Most people know that Celsius is based on > the freezing and boiling temperatures of water, but can anybody > remember what the weird Fahrenheit scale is based on? There are all kinds of stories. Some say 0° F was meant to be the lowest temperature producable by mixing water and salt; others say it was the lowest temperature he measured during the winter of 1708-09 in Danzig. 100° F is variously taken to be his own temperature when he was running a mild fever, or that of a cow.
There are some other stories of varying plausibility on Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit
-=Eric
Paul Wolff - 05 Jan 2007 22:12 GMT >> inherent advantages of other metric measurements. The fact that the >> degrees are based on the freezing and boiling temperatures of water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >know, and I have no idea at all what 100° F was supposed to be: wrongly >measured blood temperature? My memories are, I'm sure, just as vague. But... I think the Fahrenheit zero point may have been the lowest temperature readily obtainable by dosing ice with salt.
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Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2007 23:40 GMT >>> inherent advantages of other metric measurements. The fact that the >>> degrees are based on the freezing and boiling temperatures of water [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > zero point may have been the lowest temperature readily obtainable by > dosing ice with salt. Perhaps he made a lot of ice-cream.
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Bob Cunningham - 05 Jan 2007 22:14 GMT [...]
> I have some vague memory of a science lesson in my first year at high > school that explained how the various temperature scales were derived, > but I have long forgotten. Most people know that Celsius is based on the > freezing and boiling temperatures of water, but can anybody remember > what the weird Fahrenheit scale is based on? They told us that zero was chosen because it was the lowest outside temperature the inventor of the scale had ever seen. But now Wikipedia tells me ( http://www.answers.com/topic/gabriel-fahrenheit ) the inventor, Daniel Fahrenheit, fixed zero degrees at the freezing point of an equal mixture of ice and salt.
As for the 212 degrees, I don't think they told us where that came from, but it seems reasonable to guess that Fahrenheit related 180 degrees to diametrical opposition, and the boiling point could conceivably be considered diametrically opposite to the freezing point.
> I have a vague idea that 0° > F might be the freezing point of alcohol, but I don't know, and I have > no idea at all what 100° F was supposed to be: wrongly measured blood > temperature? According to the discussion at the URL I've quoted, Fahrenheit was a pretty smart, careful scientist. I doubt that he would have measured body temperature that inaccurately.
By the way, I had forgotten that the inventor's name was Fahrenheit. I wonder how many people think, as I did until now, that the "heit" meant "heat" in some language.
Eric Schwartz - 05 Jan 2007 22:25 GMT > They told us that zero was chosen because it was the lowest > outside temperature the inventor of the scale had ever > seen. But now Wikipedia tells me > ( http://www.answers.com/topic/gabriel-fahrenheit ) the > inventor, Daniel Fahrenheit, fixed zero degrees at the > freezing point of an equal mixture of ice and salt. That's the version I got in school as well-- the ice and salt, I mean. But pikiwedia has a number of other options to choose from if you don't find it pursuasive.
> As for the 212 degrees, I don't think they told us where > that came from, but it seems reasonable to guess that > Fahrenheit related 180 degrees to diametrical opposition, > and the boiling point could conceivably be considered > diametrically opposite to the freezing point. I am minimally tempted by the idea that Fahrenheit thought body temperature was 100 degrees, or that he thought it was 96 degrees, because that was a nice even 64 divisions (meaning he could subdivide it easily-- 64 is 2^6, and means each division is half-way between the previous ones).
-=Eric
Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jan 2007 22:34 GMT > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > inventor, Daniel Fahrenheit, fixed zero degrees at the > freezing point of an equal mixture of ice and salt. Which I've seen explained as the lowest temperature that could be easily and realiably replicated.
> As for the 212 degrees, I don't think they told us where that came > from, but it seems reasonable to guess that Fahrenheit related 180 > degrees to diametrical opposition, and the boiling point could > conceivably be considered diametrically opposite to the freezing > point. That's always made the most sense to me, far more so than the notion that he picked his body temperature and happened to be running a fever "that day". The notion of there being precisely 180 degrees between the important extremes is just too pat to be a coincidence. Once you've used the freezing point and boiling points of water to determine the size of your degree and set the zero point as low as you can get it, the absolute values for the freezing point and boiling point fall out.
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Mike Lyle - 05 Jan 2007 22:21 GMT > > inherent advantages of other metric measurements. The fact that the > > degrees are based on the freezing and boiling temperatures of water [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > no idea at all what 100° F was supposed to be: wrongly measured blood > temperature? Somebody told me that 100 was indeed meant to be body temp, and that 0 was the lowest he could get using freezing mixture. The first is credible, but the zero? I don't know these things. As Don says, there's nothing inherently weird about the Fahrenheit scale: it only looks that way if we confine our thoughts to water -- though the phases of water do provide a very reasonable basis.
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Peter Duncanson - 05 Jan 2007 22:26 GMT >I have a vague idea that 0° >F might be the freezing point of alcohol, I have an equally vague idea that 0°F was the freezing point of brine (a solution of salt in water).
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eromlignod - 05 Jan 2007 22:36 GMT Here's the Wikipedia story:
"There are several competing versions of the story of how Fahrenheit came to devise his temperature scale. One states that Fahrenheit established the zero (0 °F) and 100 °F points on his scale by recording the lowest outdoor temperatures he could measure, and his own body temperature. He took as his zero point the lowest temperature he measured in the harsh winter of 1708 through 1709 in his hometown of Danzig (now Gdańsk, Poland) (−17.8 °C). (He was later able to reach this temperature under laboratory conditions using a mixture of ice, ammonium chloride and water.) Fahrenheit wanted to avoid the negative temperatures that Ole Rømer's scale had produced in everyday use. He fixed his own body temperature as 100 °F (normal body temperature is closer to 98.6 °F, suggesting that Fahrenheit was suffering a fever when he conducted his experiments, that his thermometer was inaccurate, or lastly it is believed that he used a cow's temperature instead of his own), and divided his original scale into twelve divisions; later dividing each of these into 8 equal subdivisions produced a scale of 96 degrees. Fahrenheit noted that his scale placed the freezing point of water at 32 °F and the boiling point at 212 °F, a neat 180 degrees apart.
Another story holds that Fahrenheit established the zero of his scale (0 °F) as the temperature at which an equal mixture of ice and salt melts (some say he took that fixed mixture of ice and salt that produced the lowest temperature); and ninety-six degrees as the temperature of blood (he initially used horse blood to calibrate his scale). Initially, his scale only contained 12 equal subdivisions, but later he subdivided each division into 8 equal degrees ending up with 96.
A third well-known version of the story, as described in the popular physics television series The Mechanical Universe, holds that Fahrenheit simply adopted Rømer's scale, at which water freezes at 7.5 degrees, and multiplied each value by 4 in order to eliminate the fractions and increase the granularity of the scale (giving 30 and 240 degrees). He then re-calibrated his scale between the melting point of water and normal human body temperature (which he took to be 96 degrees); the melting point of ice was adjusted to 32 degrees so that 64 intervals would separate the two, allowing him to mark degree lines on his instruments by simply bisecting the interval six times (since 64 is 2 to the sixth power).
His measurements were not entirely accurate, though; by his original scale, the actual melting and boiling points would have been noticeably different from 32 °F and 212 °F. Some time after his death, it was decided to recalibrate the scale with 32 °F and 212 °F as the exact melting and boiling points of plain water. That change was made to easily convert from Celsius to Fahrenheit and vice versa, with a simple formula. This change also explains why the body temperature once taken as 96 or 100 °F by Fahrenheit is today taken by many as 98.6 °F (it is a direct conversion of 37 °C), although giving the value as 98 °F would be more accurate.
A fourth, not so well-known version of the origin of the Fahrenheit scale depends on Fahrenheit himself being a Freemason (of which there is no definitive evidence). In Freemasonry, there are 32 degrees of enlightenment, [citation needed] 32 being the highest. The use of the 'degree' as well is said to have been derived from the degrees of masonry. This may well be coincidence, but there is no conclusive evidence to the contrary, so the thought persists.
A fifth version maintains that Fahrenheit based 0 degrees on an estimate of the temperature someone would freeze to death, and 100 degrees on the temperature someone would die of heat exhaustion from, therefore making 0 to 100 the livable range for human beings (this, however, is not feasible with current knowledge because the human body has been proven to survive at temperatures well above and below these thresholds due to its thermoregulatory capabilities).
A sixth version maintains that Fahrenheit marked the melting point of water, normal human body temperature, and the boiling point of water. He then divided the span from melting to boiling into 180 degrees. Setting the normal human body temperature as 100 resulted in the FP and BP being 32 and 212, respectively."
Don Kansas City
Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2007 23:46 GMT > Here's the Wikipedia story: Why didn't I think of Wiki? Thanks for reproducing it in full and saving me the effort. Interesting that no-one actually knows for certain. Are there any other scales apart from Kelvin, Celsius, Fahrenheit and Réaumur?
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Mark Brader - 06 Jan 2007 00:03 GMT Rob Bannister writes:
> Why didn't I think of Wiki? Why do some people insist on calling Wikipedia this? It's like calling a digital computer a "digital". Wiki is the name for underlying technology. (See, e.g., Wikipedia.)
> Are there any other scales apart from Kelvin, Celsius, Fahrenheit and > Réaumur? None that have been in common use any time recently; many that have fallen by the wayside. I might mention Rankine, which uses absolute zero as its zero like Kelvin, but has Fahrenheit-size degrees. The original Celsius scale was inverted, with water boiling at 0° and freezing at 100°.
See <http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtempscales.html> for more.
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Oleg Lego - 06 Jan 2007 07:06 GMT The Mark Brader entity posted thusly:
>Rob Bannister writes: >> Why didn't I think of Wiki? > >Why do some people insist on calling Wikipedia this? It's like calling >a digital computer a "digital". Wiki is the name for underlying technology. >(See, e.g., Wikipedia.) A Wiki is what it is. That particular one happened to be named Wikipedia. I find it easier to type.
>> Are there any other scales apart from Kelvin, Celsius, Fahrenheit and >> Réaumur? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >original Celsius scale was inverted, with water boiling at 0° and >freezing at 100°. Yup, and the SI fanatics call Fahrenheit weird.
>See <http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mtempscales.html> for more. Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jan 2007 01:51 GMT > Here's the Wikipedia story: [snip]
> A sixth version maintains that Fahrenheit marked the melting point > of water, normal human body temperature, and the boiling point of > water. He then divided the span from melting to boiling into 180 > degrees. Setting the normal human body temperature as 100 resulted > in the FP and BP being 32 and 212, respectively." Looking back at pre-20th century books on Google Books, I note that some of them appear to take it for granted that the 180 degree range was the defining characteristic, e.g.
The scale generally used in British thermometers is that called Fahrenheit's, from the inventor. It contains 180 degrees, or equal parts, between the boiling and the freezing points, and the scale is continued beyond these both ways, as far as may be necessary.
_Readings in Science_, 5th edition, 1859
although those that give an opinion say that the absolute point he found was 0, not 100.
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Oleg Lego - 06 Jan 2007 07:09 GMT The eromlignod entity posted thusly:
>Here's the Wikipedia story: <much snippage of the article>
The thing I really like about the Fahrenheit scale is that the 0 and 100 points pretty much delimit the range of temperatures in which humans may survive without a huge investment in that survival.
Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2007 21:54 GMT > The eromlignod entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 100 points pretty much delimit the range of temperatures in which > humans may survive without a huge investment in that survival. Are you saying that most of North America and Russia are uninhabitable? The thing about Fahrenheit is that 0 and 100 do not represent anything that is significant to normal life, nor really to anything else.
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HVS - 06 Jan 2007 22:05 GMT On 06 Jan 2007, Robert Bannister wrote
>> The thing I really like about the Fahrenheit scale is that the >> 0 and 100 points pretty much delimit the range of temperatures [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Are you saying that most of North America and Russia are > uninhabitable? "Without a huge investment in survival"? It depends on what one deems to be "uninhabitable", of course, but I'll jump in here to agree with Oleg's point.
I've often said that places I've lived in have been on the edge of the habitable earth: the only reason that, say, Edmonton and Yellowknife can exist as modern, 20th-century, habitable cities is the major application of technology.
Without that -- and unlike in less severe climates -- they'd still be limited to scattered farmsteads, clinging precariously to basic survival.
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LaReina del Perros - 07 Jan 2007 07:05 GMT >I've often said that places I've lived in have been on the edge of >the habitable earth: the only reason that, say, Edmonton and >Yellowknife can exist as modern, 20th-century, habitable cities is >the major application of technology. Is this a case of old habits dying hard, or are you implying that Edmonton and Yellowknife are a bit behind the times?
HVS - 07 Jan 2007 10:08 GMT On 07 Jan 2007, LaReina del Perros wrote
>> I've often said that places I've lived in have been on the edge >> of the habitable earth: the only reason that, say, Edmonton [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Is this a case of old habits dying hard, or are you implying > that Edmonton and Yellowknife are a bit behind the times? Nope; just that if 19th-century-and-later technology wasn't available, those sorts of populations could not be supported in that sort of climate. I'd say the same -- edge of the habitable earth -- for any modern city (as opposed to hunter-and-gatherer densities) in any extreme climate.
It strikes me as stating the obvious rather than being derogatory or condescending to say that industrial-sized cities in extreme climates lie on the edge of the habitable earth, and that they owe the possibility of their existence to the application of technology.
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Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Jan 2007 11:33 GMT >On 07 Jan 2007, LaReina del Perros wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >lie on the edge of the habitable earth, and that they owe the >possibility of their existence to the application of technology. Your reasoning is erred in several ways, with implications that are typical of culture bias.
First, living in cold climates has *always* required "high technology", even for hunter-gatherer societies. The distinction to note is that the technology must be cold climate oriented rather than something adapted from temperate zones. Western civilization's "high tech" has typically failed in cold weather climates.
Hence history has seen thriving human populations in cold climates from Moscow to Alaska to Greenland; but has recorded Western "civilization" failing to adapt in cold climates. The Norse colonies on Greenland, which failed to adapt, are one example. The Franklin Expedition is another. Yet cities like Moscow have existed, and been largely ignored by Western historians discussing technology simply because Cold Technology is so foreign to non-cold climate cultures where the history is being written.
Whether it is the Russians in Moscow, the Chukchis in Siberia or the Eskimos in North America, Western culture has simply and erroneously written them off, out of ignorance, as low technology. Yet they had technologies that were successful where Western technology failed.
Likewise you are obviously assuming that "hunter-gatherer" cultures were not particularly high tech... but they have been for at least 2000 years! Note that the Thule Technology, developed in northwestern Alaska nearly 2000 years ago, spread very rapidly across much of the Arctic, for very good reasons.
Thule Technology was basically a very high technology adaption to Arctic living. Our concept of "modern technology" has only caught up to Thule Technology in the past 60 years. Things like warm foot gear, which today is inexpensive and available in stores, only 30-40 years ago required that you knew somebody's old grandmother who could hand make a suitable pair of warm boots! And a close inspection of Inupiat Eskimo whaling techniques also demonstrates several areas where the appropriate "high tech" required for success does *not* come from Western adaptions at all.
The only part of modern Western technology that as actually had significant effect in cold climates is manufacturing technology, which is only useful when applied to non-Western pre-existing cold technology. E.i., the warm boots you can buy in the store are warm because of the same high technology that has been keeping Eskimo feet warm for centuries.
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HVS - 07 Jan 2007 12:32 GMT On 07 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote
>> On 07 Jan 2007, LaReina del Perros wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > Hence history has seen thriving human populations in cold > climates from Moscow to Alaska to Greenland; -snip-
I specifically -- and very carefully -- restricted my comments to "modern, 20th-century, habitable cities".
You appear to wish to discuss other forms of settlement and to define "high technology" -- a term which I didn't use -- in your own way.
That's fine; but it's not what I was addressing, so you're talking at cross-purposes, or setting up straw men, or something.
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Peter Duncanson - 07 Jan 2007 12:52 GMT >On 07 Jan 2007, LaReina del Perros wrote > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >for any modern city (as opposed to hunter-and-gatherer densities) in >any extreme climate. Looking back millennia rather than centuries the same was true of smaller cities whose inhabitants depended on water supplies brought in by aqueduct. A sustained failure of water supply would mean the end of a city.
>It strikes me as stating the obvious rather than being derogatory or >condescending to say that industrial-sized cities in extreme climates >lie on the edge of the habitable earth, and that they owe the >possibility of their existence to the application of technology. It is not just cities in extreme climates that owe their existence to technology. Cities in moderate climates also owe their existence to technology.
The essentials of life are air, water, food, and generally, clothing and shelter.
Prominent examples are cities such as London, Los Angeles and New York City.
Air is available.
Water is brought to the inhabitants using technology.
Food is also brought to the inhabitants using technology. Technology is used in the production of food, in some areas this requires the use of technology to bring water to food plants.
Clothing and shelter require the necessary materials to be brought from a distance using technology. Technology is used in the acquisition of the materials.
Etc., etc.
Risking a generalisation, I'd say that the same is true of any settlement whose inhabitants cannot acquire the essentials of life within walking distance or from a greater distance using simple technology.
The difference between cities in extreme climates and those in moderate climates is one of the scale and the cost of importing the essentials of life.
This is all basic stuff but incredibly easy to take for granted and even to not notice.
Edmonton and Yellowknife are not "a bit behind the times". They may well be ahead of the times in their reliance on technology to sustain a population in an unfavourable environment.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
HVS - 07 Jan 2007 13:27 GMT On 07 Jan 2007, Peter Duncanson wrote
>> It strikes me as stating the obvious rather than being >> derogatory or condescending to say that industrial-sized cities [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > existence to technology. Cities in moderate climates also owe > their existence to technology. -snip-
> Risking a generalisation, I'd say that the same is true of any > settlement whose inhabitants cannot acquire the essentials of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > moderate climates is one of the scale and the cost of importing > the essentials of life. But the difference between surviving in the two climates -- in modern times -- is fundamentally different.
I'm a relatively healthy, adult male in his mid 50s. If I was required to survive outdoors in the winter, here in Hampshire, overnight, wearing indoor clothes, I would -- on an average winter night -- probably survive to morning.
In Alberta -- on a similar average winter night -- I'd die.
> This is all basic stuff but incredibly easy to take for granted > and even to not notice. > > Edmonton and Yellowknife are not "a bit behind the times". Just to clarify: the way this reads makes it look like that was a premise I made; I disputed it when it was suggested that that was what was I was implying.
> They may well be ahead of the times in their reliance on > technology to sustain a population in an unfavourable > environment. Precisely: and if climate change does its worst, those cities which rely most on modern technology to sustain their populations in the face of a hostile climate will become non-habitable -- for that size of population, at that level of existence -- before similar-sized cities in less extreme climates.
That's all I mean by "on the edge of the habitable world" -- "habitable" being restricted in my initial comment (and quite specifically restricted) to habitable in terms of "modern, 20th- century cities".
 Signature Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Salvatore Volatile - 08 Jan 2007 16:52 GMT > It strikes me as stating the obvious rather than being derogatory or > condescending to say that industrial-sized cities in extreme climates > lie on the edge of the habitable earth, and that they owe the > possibility of their existence to the application of technology. You are correct, sir. I've resided in Chicago, so I know this firsthand.
 Signature Salvatore Volatile
Mark Brader - 07 Jan 2007 22:56 GMT >> I've often said that places I've lived in have been on the edge of >> the habitable earth: the only reason that, say, Edmonton and >> Yellowknife can exist as modern, 20th-century, habitable cities is >> the major application of technology.
> Is this a case of old habits dying hard, or are you implying that > Edmonton and Yellowknife are a bit behind the times? Hint to Harvey: What century is this?
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | "If you want a 20th century solution, the msb@vex.net | obvious answer is helicopters!" -- Bob Scheurle
HVS - 07 Jan 2007 22:58 GMT On 07 Jan 2007, Mark Brader wrote
>>> I've often said that places I've lived in have been on the >>> edge of the habitable earth: the only reason that, say, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Hint to Harvey: What century is this? Excellent point. Change "can" to "could".
 Signature Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2007 22:17 GMT > On 06 Jan 2007, Robert Bannister wrote > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > limited to scattered farmsteads, clinging precariously to basic > survival. Sorry, I don't really follow that. "Modern" life, with all its technology, can exist almost anywhere precisely because of that technology, although remote areas like the Antarctic are still marginal. But if a "huge investment" just for survival is necessary in the many parts of the USA and Canada (not to mention many other areas in the world) where temperatures are regularly below 0° F and above 100° F, then farms, mines and towns would not have existed there for over 100 years or longer.
There is certainly the old theory about Eskimos and other peoples who inhabit climates even harsher than those I'm talking about, that suggests they spent so much time staying alive that they were unable to progress in other ways. I think the converse was that those who lived in jungle climates where food just dropped off trees were lazy; I also think that this theory was discarded a long time ago.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Oleg Lego - 06 Jan 2007 22:26 GMT The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly:
>> The eromlignod entity posted thusly: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >The thing about Fahrenheit is that 0 and 100 do not represent anything >that is significant to normal life, nor really to anything else. Are you saying you ignored my qualification of "without a huge investment in that survival."?
Ask an Eskimo living outside the comforts of a modern house in a city how much time and effort he spends in survival, in terms of a percentage of his total waking hours. Then ask same thing of a Kalahari Bushman, then of a Hawaiian, all in similar situations. I think you'll know what I mean.
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Jan 2007 04:21 GMT >The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >>> The thing I really like about the Fahrenheit scale is that the 0 and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >Kalahari Bushman, then of a Hawaiian, all in similar situations. I >think you'll know what I mean. I don't agree with the premise in your previous article, and I do think the answers to your questions would cause you a huge surprise.
I've lived in western Washington (moderated temperatures with huge amounts of rain), in the hot dry Sonoran desert of southern Arizona, and in the cold dry Arctic desert of Alaska's North Slope. In fact there are *many* similarities between life here on the North Slope (where we get all of about 5 inches in "equivalent rainfall" on an annual basis) and living in the Sonoran Desert!
One big difference is interesting though... in a hot desert if you are in trouble the best answer is to sit down and do nothing except wait for rescue. What you *do* *wrong* is dangerous and the most life threatening. On the other hand, on the North Slope if you get into trouble the danger is from *not* *doing* the right things.
A person almost totally ignorant of local survival requirements can survive in the Sonoran desert; but in the Arctic desert only knowledge can keep you alive.
Regardless, nobody here has *ever* spent much time and effort on simply survival. Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building materials. Catch a couple caribou and you have everything it takes to stay warm.
Spend the rest of the year doing whatever you please.
I don't think Hawaii is actually much different, but they do have to spend more time through out the year collecting food.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2007 04:53 GMT >Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building >materials. Yeah, but the tough part is digging for worms for bait when the ground is frozen.
 Signature Tony Cooper Orlando, FL
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Jan 2007 09:40 GMT >>Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >>whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building >>materials. > >Yeah, but the tough part is digging for worms for bait when the ground >is frozen. The ground is *always* frozen, there are no worms...
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Mike Lyle - 07 Jan 2007 19:33 GMT > >>Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a > >>whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > The ground is *always* frozen, there are no worms... You know something, Floyd? You know stuff I find very rewarding when you find time to post here, and I hope you'll keep on doing it. But you always seem to post slantways to the message you're replying to: you contradict things people didn't say. This wouldn't matter, except you seem to take it personally, which is a pity; and at the same time imply that people don't know things that actually they know perfectly well, and that's a pity, too. And anyway, maybe Tony lives where he does because it's so easy to get worms for bait when he goes out after whales: Florida is different.
 Signature Mike.
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Jan 2007 20:07 GMT >> >>Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >> >>whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >because it's so easy to get worms for bait when he goes out after >whales: Florida is different. Yawn. (Hint: Nothing above is about Florida. Maybe that's a good place to start if you want to understand, eh?)
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Tony Cooper - 07 Jan 2007 21:08 GMT >>> >>Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >>> >>whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Yawn. (Hint: Nothing above is about Florida. Maybe that's a >good place to start if you want to understand, eh?) Of course not. In Florida, when we go whale fishing, we put the worms on the beach. The whales go for the worms and beach themselves.
What is *really* difficult in Florida is ice fishing. Cutting holes in the cubes takes real precision.
 Signature Tony Cooper Orlando, FL
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Jan 2007 21:34 GMT >>>> >>Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >>>> >>whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>> >>>> The ground is *always* frozen, there are no worms... I need to be more clear... The digging isn't so bad, really, it's just that *there* *are* *no* *worms*. I'm sure you caught that Tony, but some people didn't.
>>>You know something, Floyd? You know stuff I find very rewarding when >>>you find time to post here, and I hope you'll keep on doing it. But you [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >What is *really* difficult in Florida is ice fishing. Cutting holes >in the cubes takes real precision. Oh I agree totally. The only way to do it in a place like that, is to order up those ice cubes with pre-drilled holes in them. But, the heat transfer qualities aren't as good, and the only solution seems to be to keep them surrounded with some sort of antifreeze solution (Scotch, eh?). Keeping the ice cubes refreshed makes it all perfectly acceptable that the damned whales take forever (literally) to show up.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Robert Lieblich - 07 Jan 2007 23:07 GMT > In Florida, when we go whale fishing, we put the worms > on the beach. The whales go for the worms and beach themselves. And yet the greenies insist on blaming Navy sonar. Are you available to testify at the trial, Coop?
> What is *really* difficult in Florida is ice fishing. Cutting holes > in the cubes takes real precision. Not to mention the problem of getting the hooks through those holes.
Frankly, I think you're guilty of a whale of an exaggeration.
 Signature The Liebs Back to work tomorrow
Skitt - 07 Jan 2007 20:11 GMT >>> (Floyd L. wrote:
>>>> Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >>>> whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > imply that people don't know things that actually they know perfectly > well, and that's a pity, too. It must be the cold what does it.
 Signature Skitt Ever ready to retract the aforesaid and aver the opposite.
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Jan 2007 20:19 GMT >>>> (Floyd L. wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >It must be the cold what does it. Mike would do better if he cooled off.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Mike Lyle - 11 Jan 2007 18:59 GMT > >>>> (Floyd L. wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Mike would do better if he cooled off. No, thanks: I'm a child of the South Pacific. But one of the things I find invaluable about AUE is that, in the absence of my children, it keeps me permanently cool about being disagreed with: a great vanity-suppressor.
 Signature Mike.
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Jan 2007 21:10 GMT >> >>>> (Floyd L. wrote: >> >>>>> Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >keeps me permanently cool about being disagreed with: a great >vanity-suppressor. That being the reason you post whole articles with absolutely no redeaming features, no added discussion, and nothing but gratuitous insults that aren't even realistic? Hmmmm...
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Garrett Wollman - 11 Jan 2007 21:30 GMT >That being the reason you post whole articles with absolutely no >redeaming features, no added discussion, and nothing but >gratuitous insults that aren't even realistic? Hmmmm... Pot, kettle, plonk.
-GAWollman
 Signature Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Jan 2007 22:02 GMT >>That being the reason you post whole articles with absolutely no >>redeaming features, no added discussion, and nothing but >>gratuitous insults that aren't even realistic? Hmmmm... > >Pot, kettle, plonk. So just how was my responding directly to what he said in *any* way similar to his gratuitous rant? You apparently don't pay much attention to details...
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
HVS - 11 Jan 2007 22:02 GMT On 11 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote
>>> That being the reason you post whole articles with absolutely no >>> redeaming features, no added discussion, and nothing but [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So just how was my responding directly to what he said in *any* > way similar to his gratuitous rant? If you consider Mike's comments to be a "gratuitous rant", your sensitivities are really are much too delicate to handle Usenet.
 Signature Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Jan 2007 22:15 GMT >On 11 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >If you consider Mike's comments to be a "gratuitous rant", your >sensitivities are really are much too delicate to handle Usenet. If you don't, you should look up the words in a dictionary.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
HVS - 11 Jan 2007 22:24 GMT On 11 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote
>> On 11 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > If you don't, you should look up the words in a dictionary. Hmmm...let me check.
"Gratuitous" adj. "politely well-measured"
"Rant" n. "Comments"
Yup; guess you're right.
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Jan 2007 22:56 GMT >>> If you consider Mike's comments to be a "gratuitous rant", your >>> sensitivities are really are much too delicate to handle [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >"Gratuitous" adj. "politely well-measured" You appear to be dishonest, given that definition. Did you make it up?
adj 1: without cause; "a gratuitous insult" 2: costing nothing; "complimentary tickets" [syn: complimentary, costless, free, gratis(p)] 3: unnecessary and unwarranted; "a strikers' tent camp...was burned with needless loss of life" [syn: needless, uncalled-for]
>"Rant" n. "Comments" Ah, more than just a little dishonest.
rant n 1: a loud bombastic declamation expressed with strong emotion [syn: harangue, ranting] 2: pompous or pretentious talk or writing [syn: bombast, fustian, claptrap, blah] v : talk in a noisy, excited, or declamatory manner [syn: mouth off, jabber, spout, rabbit on, rave]
>Yup; guess you're right. That was obvious to start with.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
HVS - 11 Jan 2007 23:16 GMT On 11 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote
>>>> If you consider Mike's comments to be a "gratuitous rant", >>>> your sensitivities are really are much too delicate to handle [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You appear to be dishonest, given that definition. Did you make > it up? I think your sarcasto-ironometer is broken.
-snip-
>> "Rant" n. "Comments" > > Ah, more than just a little dishonest. Ah: it *is* broken.
-snip oversensitive response-
I read Mike's post as a polite, well-intended, but critical comment on your evident touchiness.
You appear to have read his post as an unnecessary and unwarranted, bombastic, raving harangue.
Apparently Mike was spot on, and your measurement scales are seriously out of whack.
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Jan 2007 23:45 GMT >On 11 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >I read Mike's post as a polite, well-intended, but critical comment >on your evident touchiness. That is just about as honest as your definitions... very close to zero percent.
>You appear to have read his post as an unnecessary and unwarranted, >bombastic, raving harangue. > >Apparently Mike was spot on, and your measurement scales are >seriously out of whack. People who get wound up with gratuitous insults to the point of posting entire articles devoid of anything else, with no connection at all to the previous discussion, are "seriously out of whack".
Now, if I were like you and Mike a few paragraphs of insults to "explain" what makes you post would be in order. But all you really need to know is that there is no point in posting such articles. It isn't productive.
If you want to make points, try posting articles that demonstrate integrity. That does work.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Mike Lyle - 12 Jan 2007 16:01 GMT > >On 11 Jan 2007, Floyd L. Davidson wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > If you want to make points, try posting articles that > demonstrate integrity. That does work. I reckon I showed a certain integrity: I gave you due and sincere credit without flattery, and offered mild criticism of a specific kind, and made a weak joke which you didn't seem to understand. I don't think I uttered a single insult. If we're going to bring integrity into it, you're the one who didn't reply directly, and used mockery instead of argument. You _do_ contradict things people didn't say; you _do_ seem to assume an improbable degree of ignorance in your readers; and you _do_ seem to take disagreement as a personal affront. Maybe my commenting on these things was unwelcome, but I don't see how, in an open discussion group, it could have been gratuitous.
 Signature Mike.
-- Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Floyd L. Davidson - 12 Jan 2007 17:01 GMT >I reckon I showed a certain integrity: I gave you due and sincere credit >without flattery, and offered mild criticism of a specific kind, and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >these things was unwelcome, but I don't see how, in an open discussion >group, it could have been gratuitous. You just don't get it Mike. All of that is your opinion, and none of that is appropriate for discussion.
You can't show that I did *any* of those things in the article you responded to, or in previous articles in that thread.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Armond Perretta - 12 Jan 2007 17:15 GMT > You can't show that I did *any* of those things in the article > you responded to, or in previous articles in that thread. Floyydd, let me be the first and probably only person to welcome you to a.u.e. You are evidently the latest in an impossibly long line of individuals who enter our midst dragging along a furnace of internal anger that you believe simply must be launched against those already here.
Before you decide that your spiteful utterances have sufficiently stated your neurotic needs, let me once again be the first and probably the only person here to let you know that, as of now, you can go f.ck yourself.
 Signature Good luck and good sailing. s/v Kerry Deare of Barnegat http://home.comcast.net/~kerrydeare
Mike Lyle - 12 Jan 2007 21:48 GMT > >I reckon I showed a certain integrity: I gave you due and sincere credit > >without flattery, and offered mild criticism of a specific kind, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You just don't get it Mike. All of that is your opinion, and > none of that is appropriate for discussion. That is itself a matter of opinion. But, no, I'm afraid I don't actually get it, and I don't think I'm going to.
> You can't show that I did *any* of those things in the article > you responded to, or in previous articles in that thread. Well, this has got far out of hand. At the beginning of this sad exchange I'd noticed the tendencies I referred to; but I won't waste your time with a probably sterile comparison of your responses and what others actually said. Suffice it to repeat that I find it rewarding to read what you have to say on subjects I know less about than you do, and to add that you might be pleasantly surprised to find that, even on those subjects, we aren't always as ill-informed as you fear.
 Signature Mike.
Default User - 11 Jan 2007 23:34 GMT > > Pot, kettle, plonk. > > You apparently don't pay > much attention to details... You apparently don't know what plonk means.
Brian
 Signature If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Floyd L. Davidson - 12 Jan 2007 02:31 GMT >> > Pot, kettle, plonk. >> >> You apparently don't pay >> much attention to details... > >You apparently don't know what plonk means. You need to look up naive in a dictionary son.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Default User - 12 Jan 2007 16:50 GMT
> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version?
Brian
 Signature If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Floyd L. Davidson - 12 Jan 2007 17:18 GMT >> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. > >What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version? Naive isn't in that sort of a dictionary. Take a look, you'll see.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Default User - 12 Jan 2007 21:22 GMT > >> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. > > > > What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version? > > Naive isn't in that sort of a dictionary. Take a look, you'll > see. Which sort?
Brian
 Signature If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
Robert Lieblich - 12 Jan 2007 22:50 GMT > >> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. > > > >What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version? > > Naive isn't in that sort of a dictionary. Take a look, you'll > see. I prefer the kind that doesn't include "gullible."
 Signature Bob Lieblich Who agrees mostly with Mike Lyle, FWIW
HVS - 12 Jan 2007 17:24 GMT On 12 Jan 2007, Default User wrote
> >> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. > > What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version? Nope; that's a "dictionary dwarf".
A "dictionary son" is from the French "son dictionnaire" -- it means he wants you to look it up in a dictionary that belongs to some other bloke. (I suspect he doesn't trust yours.)
 Signature Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
R H Draney - 12 Jan 2007 19:59 GMT Default User filted:
>> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. > >What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version? That's the bowdlerized version Ed Sullivan made Creedence Clearwater Revival do on his show (the original was too political):
"It ain't me, It ain't me, I ain't no dictionary son."
....r
 Signature "Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely.
Peter Duncanson - 12 Jan 2007 21:59 GMT >> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. > >What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version? Beware of abridged versions of anything -- they may be concealing trolls.
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Default User - 12 Jan 2007 23:14 GMT > >> You need to look up naive in a dictionary son. > > > > What's a dictionary son? Some sort of abridged version? > > > Beware of abridged versions of anything -- they may be concealing > trolls. Only since the 1940s or so, right?
Brian
 Signature If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who won't shut up. -- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
CDB - 12 Jan 2007 00:02 GMT [...]
>>> Mike would do better if he cooled off. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > redeaming features, no added discussion, and nothing but > gratuitous insults that aren't even realistic? Hmmmm... But surely they are preferable to well-deserved and realistic insults (as Socrates once didn't quite say to the Missus)?
I have to agree with Mike, Floyd. You bring knowledge to this group that no one else here has, AFAIK, and I would be sorry to see you abandon us. Personally, I don't mind it if your posts are sometimes a little to the side of topic, because they're still interesting and because we are all sinners.
You do seem to react very defensively to criticism, though, and criticism, often friendly, is what there is a lot of around here. Please don't take it as offensive: it is not usually meant that way (when it is, it's likely being done by an expert as a tour de force, and you'll know it; then, OK).
Floyd L. Davidson - 12 Jan 2007 02:54 GMT >I have to agree with Mike, Floyd. You bring knowledge to this group >that no one else here has, AFAIK, and I would be sorry to see you >abandon us. Personally, I don't mind it if your posts are sometimes a >little to the side of topic, because they're still interesting and >because we are all sinners. Thank you for the kind words. I would ask that you try to analyze whatever it might be about the articles I post that you do like. See if you can figure out which characteristics make them something "no one else here has". (Note that I have been in the "communications" business for more than 4 decades, and "effective communications" is something I've always been interested in, on a grand scale. How to write effectively for Usenet is an interesting sub-topic...)
I do believe that you'll find you are complaining about exactly what makes many of my articles worth posting! (As in, *of* *course* they are "to the side of topic"! Would they be interesting if I posted the same repetitive chit chat that everyone else does???? When that is all I can think of, I read but do not write.)
The second thing to look at is just how often I post here...
>You do seem to react very defensively to criticism, though, and >criticism, often friendly, is what there is a lot of around here. Errr, how long have you been reading Usenet? *Everything* and *anything* that anyone posts to Usenet get chewed on. Maybe fairly, maybe not. But when you write it, it is best to assume that it *will* not be fairly treated. (And I've always felt we should realize that everyone from potential employers to our grandchildren will be reading it too.)
The point is that with me if you want to chew, go ahead but I *will* respond with logical reasons for having said whatever it was. If you can't handle that... then gee whiz golly gee, is that my problem?
>Please don't take it as offensive: it is not usually meant that way >(when it is, it's likely being done by an expert as a tour de force, >and you'll know it; then, OK). You haven't said anything that even comes close to being offensive. I don't agree with some of it. I found other parts to be thought provoking. I have responded with what I believe are logical and hopefully thought provoking ways to look at the ideas you wanted to discuss. If someone takes offense at that, I'm afraid it isn't going to cost *me* any sleep!
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
CDB - 12 Jan 2007 15:14 GMT >> I have to agree with Mike, Floyd. You bring knowledge to this >> group that no one else here has, AFAIK, and I would be sorry to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > interested in, on a grand scale. How to write effectively for > Usenet is an interesting sub-topic...) It's a sub-topic that I often feel I need to work on more. I would have to go back quite far and look at individual posts to be more specific, but my memories are of thinking "Oh. I didn't know that -- that's interesting."
> I do believe that you'll find you are complaining about exactly > what makes many of my articles worth posting! (As in, *of* > *course* they are "to the side of topic"! Would they be > interesting if I posted the same repetitive chit chat that > everyone else does???? When that is all I can think of, I read > but do not write.) Not complaining about the posts. As I said, posting to the side doesn't bother me, if it's interesting. I don't think Mike was complaining about that either, just observing.
> The second thing to look at is just how often I post here... > >> You do seem to react very defensively to criticism, though, and >> criticism, often friendly, is what there is a lot of around here. > > Errr, how long have you been reading Usenet? Not long, as that is measured in these parts.
> *Everything* and > *anything* that anyone posts to Usenet get chewed on. Maybe [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > was. If you can't handle that... then gee whiz golly gee, is > that my problem? OK, then, as long as no one's really upset.
>> Please don't take it as offensive: it is not usually meant that way >> (when it is, it's likely being done by an expert as a tour de >> force, and you'll know it; then, OK). > > You haven't said anything that even comes close to being > offensive. Good, because it wasn't at all my intent to offend. But I meant what I said about agreeing with Mike. As I see it, I said about the same thing that he did (in the parts where he wasn't joking), except that I was taking a bit more care where I was treading.
His posts are also very much among the ones I value, in part because of his manner of expressing himself. Maybe that manner is something that takes getting used to, especially if there are geographic and cultural differences to get past. From a couple of years of observation, I can tell you in general that, as a poster, he is at the other end of the spectrum from the kind of offensive troll that deserves a brusque response.
>I don't agree with some of it. I found other parts > to be thought provoking. I have responded with what I believe > are logical and hopefully thought provoking ways to look at the > ideas you wanted to discuss. If someone takes offense at that, > I'm afraid it isn't going to cost *me* any sleep! No sleep was lost in the making of these posts: good. Just so we all understand each other.
HVS - 11 Jan 2007 21:36 GMT On 07 Jan 2007, Mike Lyle wrote
>>>> Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >>>> whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > a pity; and at the same time imply that people don't know things > that actually they know perfectly well, and that's a pity, too. Just caught this post; I'm glad I'm not the only one who's sensed that Floyd appears to have a chip the size of a small kayak on his shoulder.
(But, hey: it's cold and dark up there. Gotta do *something* to pass the time....)
 Signature Cheers, Harvey
Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van
Oleg Lego - 08 Jan 2007 06:42 GMT The Floyd L. Davidson entity posted thusly:
>>The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: >>>> The thing I really like about the Fahrenheit scale is that the 0 and [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >Slope if you get into trouble the danger is from *not* *doing* >the right things. "Waiting for rescue" is not something you are likely to rely on if you are actually living in the desert. I can see a tourist/hiker/someone who is lost, waiting for rescue, but someone living in severe desert conditions is going to have the necessary knowledge, and will be spending a lot more time and effort on survival than someone living in the wild in Hawaii. I really don't see how it can be any different.
Heck, everything I do year-round, requires more time and effort in the dead of winter, than it does in the moderate temperatures and lack of snow in the summer, and I am not even speaking of things I would need to do in order to survive without a vehicle to get to the supermarket, or without electricity and natural gas delivered to my home so that I don't have to gather firewood or to melt snow for water.
>Regardless, nobody here has *ever* spent much time and effort on >simply survival. Life isn't that difficult. Catch yourself a >whale every spring... and you have food, fuel and building >materials. Catch a couple caribou and you have everything it >takes to stay warm. Yes, and you _do_ have to have a shelter that keeps the elements at bay, and the time and effort required to build and maintain that shelter is significantly more than those in temperate or moderate tropical climates. If you can get by with an unheated, open-walled shelter, you need very little time and effort to provide yourself with it.
>Spend the rest of the year doing whatever you please. Without, of course, neglecting the cutting up of the fuel and food (without benefit of the "thaw' button on the microwave, of course), the maintenance of the shelter and your clothing, so that you don't end up with hypothermia, all of which is more difficult and time-consuming than the minimal requirements of someone living in, say, the backwoods of Florida.
>I don't think Hawaii is actually much different, but they do >have to spend more time through out the year collecting food. Yes, they do have to spend time throughout the year collecting food, but how much easier is it to pick up a coconut, or pick a papaya, or catch a few fish, than it is for people in extreme conditions to feed themselves. The Hawaiian does not have to hack away at a frozen chunk of food in order to eat.
Robert Bannister - 08 Jan 2007 22:24 GMT > Yes, they do have to spend time throughout the year collecting food, > but how much easier is it to pick up a coconut, or pick a papaya, or > catch a few fish, than it is for people in extreme conditions to feed > themselves. The Hawaiian does not have to hack away at a frozen chunk > of food in order to eat. I do wonder about just how easy it is for people living in tropical or subtropical "paradise". To some extent, it must depend on population: it won't be quite so easy to find your fruit or fish if there are too many other people looking for them.
Certainly, in other regions, including our much-prized temperate zones, the majority of people spent most of their waking hours working very hard to keep alive. This seems to have applied equally to hunter/gatherers as to agricultural societies, although it seems it was often the women who did the bulk of the work. True, there were a few chiefs and priests who had slaves or servants to do that for them, although I doubt whether even they lounged around Hollywood-style for hours. For the majority of people, this held true until the early 1900s.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Oleg Lego - 09 Jan 2007 04:05 GMT The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly:
>> Yes, they do have to spend time throughout the year collecting food, >> but how much easier is it to pick up a coconut, or pick a papaya, or [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >the majority of people spent most of their waking hours working very >hard to keep alive. An easy way to look at it is to figure out what you make per unit time, and what you spend on basic survival necessities. The percentage will tell you how much time and effort you put in to just survival.
Don't forget to rate your shelter cost as that portion which is absolutely necessary to survival, which means putting the cost of your hot tub, indoor plumbing, and comfy furniture on the 'luxury' side of things.
John Holmes - 07 Jan 2007 08:49 GMT > The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Are you saying you ignored my qualification of "without a huge > investment in that survival."? I would have put the 'comfortable' range as something more like 50-100 Fahrenheit*. Temperatures much outside that range for sustained periods mean that humans in the open die of exposure.
(*I find it difficult now to think in terms of Fahrenheit temperatures. I've rarely seen them mentioned in the last few decades, except for AUE discussions.)
 Signature Regards John for mail: my initials plus a u e at tpg dot com dot au
Mark Brader - 07 Jan 2007 08:41 GMT Rob Bannister:
> The thing about Fahrenheit is that 0 and 100 do not represent anything > that is significant to normal life, nor really to anything else. No, actually, 0 F is quite significant -- it's the temperature where you have to switch to putting sand on the sidewalk.
On the other hand, 0 C is a helluvalot *more* significant.
 Signature Mark Brader | "Which baby is that? Oh, of course -- it must be Toronto | the one that comes complete with bathwater." msb@vex.net | --Maria Conlon
Mike Barnes - 05 Jan 2007 22:48 GMT In alt.usage.english, eromlignod wrote:
>If you wanted to convert the *difference* in temperature of 5 Celsius >degrees to Fahrenheit degrees, you can simply multiply by 1.8, giving >you 9 Fahrenheit degrees change in temperature, since there are 1.8 >Fahrenheit degrees in a degree Celsius. If, on the other hand, you >want to convert the actual temperature of 5 C to F, you must use the >formula 5 * C / 9 + 32, which gives you 41 F. I agree with everything except that "must". Another way to convert actual temperatures is to add 40, multiply by 1.8 as described in your first scenario, then take 40 off again. That method involves one extra step, but it's particularly handy and easy to remember for people who regularly do the conversion both ways, because it's symmetrical.
C->F: +40, *1.8, -40 F->C: +40, /1.8, -40
(-40 Celsius is the same as -40 Fahrenheit. So you're converting the *difference* between the actual temperature and -40)
 Signature Mike Barnes Cheshire, England
Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2007 23:52 GMT > In alt.usage.english, eromlignod wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (-40 Celsius is the same as -40 Fahrenheit. So you're converting the > *difference* between the actual temperature and -40) The only problem with that is I can't divide by 1.8 in my head. Luckily, 1.8 just happens to be 9/5 which I can do.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Evan Kirshenbaum - 06 Jan 2007 01:36 GMT >> C->F: +40, *1.8, -40 >> F->C: +40, /1.8, -40 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The only problem with that is I can't divide by 1.8 in my > head. Divide by two and add 10%. It's one percent low, but that's usually close enough. Going the other way, multiply by two and subtract 10% for an exact answer.
 Signature Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |When all else fails, give the 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |customer what they ask for. This Palo Alto, CA 94304 |is strong medicine and rarely needs |to be repeated. kirshenbaum@hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572
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Mark Brader - 06 Jan 2007 02:30 GMT Rob Bannister:
> > The only problem with that is I can't divide by 1.8 in my > > head. Evan Kirshenbaum:
> Divide by two and add 10%. It's one percent low, but that's usually > close enough. Going the other way, multiply by two and subtract 10% > for an exact answer. If I have to convert between Fahrenheit and Celsius in my head, what I usually do is estimate the correct interpolation between the following memorized values. (All are exact except -17; in fact -18 would be closer.) Who needs multiplication or division?
-40 <-> -40 0 <-> -17 32 <-> 0 50 <-> 10 68 <-> 20 86 <-> 30 104 <-> 40
I do the same sort of thing for mile/kilometer conversions, although for most other unit conversions I do multiply or divide.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | I am a mathematician, sir. I never permit myself msb@vex.net | to think. --Stuart Mills (Carr: The Three Coffins)
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Robert Bannister - 06 Jan 2007 22:11 GMT > If I have to convert between Fahrenheit and Celsius in my head, > what I usually do is estimate the correct interpolation between [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I do the same sort of thing for mile/kilometer conversions, although > for most other unit conversions I do multiply or divide. If we are talking about human-scale temperatures, I don't find conversion very useful anyway. It's like when you're overseas for some time: converting currency isn't half as useful as knowing whether things are cheap or expensive by local standards.
So, I remember enough of Fahrenheit to know that 50 is unpleasantly cool, 70 is pleasantly warm, 90 can be either pleasant or unbearable according to the humidity and 100 is hot. Although I have been in Moscow in December, I don't have a great deal of experience of cold temperatures, but I know that down to about 20° F is pleasant enough so long as there is no wind, and for practical purposes, that is all I need to know when I'm reading an American novel.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mark Brader - 07 Jan 2007 05:07 GMT Mark Brader:
> > If I have to convert between Fahrenheit and Celsius in my head, > > what I usually do is estimate the correct interpolation between > > the following memorized values... Rob Bannister:
> If we are talking about human-scale temperatures, I don't find > conversion very useful anyway. I agree, but sometimes it's necessary to explain things to foreigners.
> It's like when you're overseas for some time: converting currency > isn't half as useful as knowing whether things are cheap or expensive > by local standards. It's useful for different purposes, i.e. tracking whether you're running out of money. Of course if you have income in local money that's another matter.
 Signature Mark Brader | "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. Toronto | I said I didn't know." msb@vex.net | --Mark Twain, "Life on the Mississippi"
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Robert Bannister - 07 Jan 2007 22:29 GMT > Mark Brader: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > running out of money. Of course if you have income in local money > that's another matter. During the trip that eventually brought me to Australia, I remember buying cartons of 200 cigarettes for the then equivalent of 2 shillings and paying for a meal for 8 people for about the same amount. Naturally, one haggled over the price, because that was the done thing, but if I had still been thinking in pounds, shillings and pence, I wouldn't have bothered. This sort of thing still happens in tourist areas and drives the prices up so that the locals eventually have to leave.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister - 30 Dec 2006 22:43 GMT > Because °F is what we *use*, what we *think* in. Perhaps "we" have never been exposed to science.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mark Brader - 29 Dec 2006 01:37 GMT > http://apnews.myway.com/article/20061228/D8MA4B7O0.html > > "Some of the ice shelf's disappearance was probably during times when > the planet was 36 degrees Fahrenheit (2 degrees Celsius) to 37 degrees > Fahrenheit (3 degrees Celsius) warmer than it is today..." When I was in high school, we were taught to write "degrees Celsius" (°C) for a temperature and "Celsius degrees" (C°) for a temperature difference, precisely to avoid this sort of confusion. Unfortunately, this usage conflicts with the SI standard, but I'll use it in this posting for convenience.
The second anomaly, that the 1 C° difference between 2 and 3 seems to convert to a 1 F° difference between 36 and 37, is accounted for by rounding that would be correct if the conversions were correct in the first place. That is, an exact 2°C converts to 35.6°F, which rounds to 36°F, while an exact 3°C is 37.4°F, rounding to 37°F. But since it's really 2 C° and 3 C°, the exact equivalents are 3.6 F° and 5.4 F°. Again these numbers would round toward each other and become 4 and 5. The passage might best be rendered as "2 to 3 degrees Celsius (about 4 to 5 degrees Fahrenheit) warmer", where "about" warns the reader of the awkward rounding. Or better yet, the reader could just learn Celsius in the first place.
 Signature Mark Brader "Thus the metric system did not really catch on Toronto in the States, unless you count the increasing msb@vex.net popularity of the 9 mm bullet." -- Dave Barry
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Jeffrey Turner - 29 Dec 2006 13:16 GMT > Or better yet, the reader could just learn > Celsius in the first place. Ha! After we get through liberating the Middle East, we'll bring democracy to France and then the SI will change to Fahrenheit.
--Jeff
 Signature Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. -T.S. Eliot
Mike Lyle - 30 Dec 2006 21:30 GMT [...]
> Half of the harm that is done in this world > is due to people who want to feel important. [...] -T.S. Eliot
A bit harsh; but, yes, in a just world such people would indeed have it coming to them.
 Signature Mike.
Robert Bannister - 03 Jan 2007 00:01 GMT > the awkward rounding. Or better yet, the reader could just learn > Celsius in the first place. I'm beginning to realise that whichever temperature scale we use, it seems to mean different things to different people:
Heard on radio about Christmas time. Young radio announcer: It's going to be a perfect day for the beach. A glorious 35 degrees.
Heard on TV earlier this week. TV tennis commentator: It's going to be a hot 34 degrees today.
Seen in this morning's paper. Not sure whether the met. bureau spokesman is being quoted or whether (more likely) the words are the reporter's: Today, Perth will experience winter weather with a top of just 21°.
It was that last one that prompted me to write. All the above are degrees Celsius and all made by people living in Perth about Perth's weather. Now, it does get fairly warm here in summer, but if we had 21° in winter, we would be somewhat surprised.
So, never mind the scale: we can't even decide on cold, warm and hot.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Dick Chambers - 03 Jan 2007 00:49 GMT > Heard on radio about Christmas time. Young radio announcer: > It's going to be a perfect day for the beach. A glorious 35 degrees. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > it does get fairly warm here in summer, but if we had 21° in winter, we > would be somewhat surprised. Please explain to a non-Australian. Surprised because 21C is unusually warm for a winter temperature in Perth? Or surprised because 21C is unusually cold? What would be a normal mid-winter daytime temperature in Perth, and what might the temperarure fall to at night?
Richard Chambers Leeds UK (today, approximately +8C daytime, +2C night-time)
Robert Bannister - 03 Jan 2007 22:29 GMT >>Heard on radio about Christmas time. Young radio announcer: >>It's going to be a perfect day for the beach. A glorious 35 degrees. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > cold? What would be a normal mid-winter daytime temperature in Perth, and > what might the temperarure fall to at night? I expect winter maxima to be around 12-15° C with odd days as high as 19° and a very few days as low as 10°. A high of 19° would start talk about global warming.
Minima seem to occur mainly just after sunrise, and we have a lot of mornings, especially in Spring, of about 5°, but 10° is more usual. If it gets down to 2°, people go round mumbling about the cold. I think, last year, it got down to 0.5° once. Frosts, of course, do occur in "susceptible areas", but my area is very hard-nosed and not susceptible.
So, on average, 10-15°.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mark Brader - 04 Jan 2007 10:06 GMT Rob Bannister and Dick Chambers write:
>>> Seen in this morning's paper. ... >>> Today, Perth will experience winter weather with a top of just 21°. That's interesting. The usual word here is "high"; nobody says "top".
>>> Now, it does get fairly warm here in summer, but if we had 21°[C] >>> in winter, we would be somewhat surprised.
>> Surprised because 21C is unusually warm for a winter temperature in >> Perth? Or surprised because 21C is unusually cold? ...
> I expect winter maxima to be around 12-15° C with odd days as high as > 19° and a very few days as low as 10°. A high of 19° would start talk > about global warming. Whereas around here, a high 5°C higher -- or lower -- than the typical temperature for the same date would be completely unsurprising. Oh, people might talk about it a bit, but it's well within the normal variation over a period of a few days.
Now if we had days like that for weeks at a time, *then* people might start talking about global warming.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | Let me know if that is a convincing argument. msb@vex.net | If it is, I'll try it on myself. --Maria Conlon
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Robert Bannister - 04 Jan 2007 21:55 GMT > Rob Bannister and Dick Chambers write: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > people might talk about it a bit, but it's well within the normal > variation over a period of a few days. In my city, we've only had recorded weather for 131 years, so almost anything unusual is a record.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mark Brader - 05 Jan 2007 23:06 GMT Rob Bannister and I (Mark Brader) wrote:
>>> I expect winter maxima to be around 12-15° C with odd days as high as >>> 19° and a very few days as low as 10°. A high of 19° would start talk >>> about global warming.
>> Whereas around here, a high 5°C higher -- or lower -- than the typical >> temperature for the same date would be completely unsurprising. Oh, >> people might talk about it a bit, but it's well within the normal >> variation over a period of a few days.
> In my city, we've only had recorded weather for 131 years, so almost > anything unusual is a record. 166 years here, I think, so no great difference. My point was that a difference of that size would not be "unusual" in our climate.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto "I seem to have become a signature quote." msb@vex.net -- David Keldsen
Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2007 23:58 GMT > Rob Bannister and I (Mark Brader) wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > 166 years here, I think, so no great difference. My point was that a > difference of that size would not be "unusual" in our climate. Point taken, but what I was getting at was our silly media, who, after one day of unusual heat, cold, wet or dry, immediately announce it as a "30 day / 30 week / 30 year record" - almost "hottest day since last Monday".
 Signature Rob Bannister
athel...@yahoo - 04 Jan 2007 11:52 GMT > > Heard on radio about Christmas time. Young radio announcer: > > It's going to be a perfect day for the beach. A glorious 35 degrees. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > cold? What would be a normal mid-winter daytime temperature in Perth, and > what might the temperarure fall to at night? Surely (assuming we are talking about Australia and not Scotland) it isn't winter at all in Perth at the moment, so I would take the statement to mean it was so cold for a summer's day that it would seem like winter.
athel
Robert Bannister - 04 Jan 2007 22:01 GMT >>>Heard on radio about Christmas time. Young radio announcer: >>>It's going to be a perfect day for the beach. A glorious 35 degrees. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > statement to mean it was so cold for a summer's day that it would seem > like winter. All the same, "winter weather" was hyperbole, or do I mean hyperborean?
 Signature Rob Bannister
Oleg Lego - 03 Jan 2007 04:18 GMT The Robert Bannister entity posted thusly:
>> the awkward rounding. Or better yet, the reader could just learn >> Celsius in the first place. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >So, never mind the scale: we can't even decide on cold, warm and hot. I was thinking about something similar a few days ago, though it was more about how temperatures are perceived in different places.
I had just said to my wife, "It'll be pretty warm tomorrow; we could get some snow." The temperature at the time I said it was about -10 degrees C, which is definitely somewhat warm for early January. At the time, the prediction for the next day was for a high of -2 degrees C, which is VERY warm for this time of year.
The thought I had was that in the warmest climate of Canada (West Coast), the phrase would probably read "It'll be pretty cold tomorrow; we might get some snow."
Here, when we get "pretty cold" weather, it tends to be dry, and is unlikely to snow.
Mark Brader - 04 Jan 2007 10:13 GMT > I had just said to my wife, "It'll be pretty warm tomorrow; we could > get some snow." The temperature at the time I said it was about -10 > degrees C, which is definitely somewhat warm for early January. At the > time, the prediction for the next day was for a high of -2 degrees C, > which is VERY warm for this time of year. Where is here, exactly?
Here (see below), if the temperature was -2°C and this was warmer than expected, people would say it was "mild", not "warm". I'd say the threshold for "warm" is temperatures when you might go out without a coat, say about 12°C on a sunny spring day or room temperature in the summer.
 Signature Mark Brader "Remember, this is Mark we're dealing with. Toronto Rationality and fact won't work very well." msb@vex.net -- Jeff Scott Franzman
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Oleg Lego - 05 Jan 2007 03:20 GMT The Mark Brader entity posted thusly:
>> I had just said to my wife, "It'll be pretty warm tomorrow; we could >> get some snow." The temperature at the time I said it was about -10 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Where is here, exactly? Saskatchewan, but my speech is influenced by many years of living in the Vancouver area.
>Here (see below), if the temperature was -2°C and this was warmer than >expected, people would say it was "mild", not "warm". We would use 'mild' as well, but I think 'warm' would be more likely.
> I'd say the >threshold for "warm" is temperatures when you might go out without a >coat, say about 12°C on a sunny spring day or room temperature in the >summer. Umm... I tend to go without a coat when it's been coldish (less than -10 or so) for a while, then it gets up above about -2. I don't go out in a T-shirt at those temperatures, but the coat is unnecessary at that point. High winds will change that, as will very humid conditions.
Mark Brader - 05 Jan 2007 23:07 GMT >> Here (see below), if the temperature was -2°C and this was warmer than >> expected, people would say it was "mild", not "warm". > > We would use 'mild' as well, but I think 'warm' would be more likely.
>> I'd say the >> threshold for "warm" is temperatures when you might go out without a >> coat, say about 12°C on a sunny spring day or room temperature in the >> summer.
> Umm... I tend to go without a coat when it's been coldish (less than > -10 or so) for a while, then it gets up above about -2. ... Ah. Then it is warm after all. Thanks.
 Signature Mark Brader, Toronto | "However, 0.02283% failure might be better than 50% msb@vex.net | failure, depending on your needs." --Norman Diamond
Oleg Lego - 06 Jan 2007 07:11 GMT The Mark Brader entity posted thusly:
>>> Here (see below), if the temperature was -2°C and this was warmer than >>> expected, people would say it was "mild", not "warm". [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Ah. Then it is warm after all. Thanks. Further thoughts from today lead me to the conclusion that I usually use "mild" when describing a season, but "warm" or a variant (unusually warm, relatively warm, etc.) when describing a month, a week or a day.
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