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Discussion Groups / English Usage / December 2006doubt that;doubt whether
Hi. I recently read somewhere that 'doubt that' is wrong and that one should only say 'doubt whether'. But 'doubt that' seems to have inured in the langauge as I see it everywhere. My impression - and I have never before expressly thought this through - is that the sentence 'I doubt whether there was a fire' expresses that you have no firm belief about whether there was a fire or not, whereas 'I doubt that there was a fire' expresses that you doubt whether there was a fire, but that in the balance, you are inclined to believe that there was none. Is this how native speakers of English understand(without necessarily having thought it through,instinctively,as it were) the nuance between these expressions - if they see a nuance at all? If not, I'd like to know whether native speakers differentiate between 'doubt that' and 'doubt whether' at all, consciously or unconsciously and if so,in what way. It occurs to me that we often have occasion to distinguish between the shades of meaning mentioned above and that using 'doubt that' and 'doubt whether' to distinguish between them is a very convenient device and one that has the advantage of affording the benefit of succinctness of expression over other alternatives. If this won't do, I'd like to hear suggestions on alternative ways to express these shades of meaning neatly and succinctly. Thanks. I must confess that i read only the first few lines of ur post and I would go with "doubt that" > Hi. I recently read somewhere that 'doubt that' is wrong and that one > should only say 'doubt whether'. But 'doubt that' seems to have inured [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > I'd like to hear suggestions on alternative ways to express these > shades of meaning neatly and succinctly. Thanks. > Hi. I recently read somewhere that 'doubt that' is wrong and that one > should only say 'doubt whether'. This sounds like nonsense to me. I strongly doubt that it's true in the English of all but the most pedantic native anglophones. However, you can read all about it in Fowler's _The King's English, 2nd ed._ (1908) at http://www.bartleby.com/116/216.html Garner's _A Dictionary of Modern American Usage_ says similar things. Neither Fowler nor Garner says "doubt that" is wrong. > But 'doubt that' seems to have inured Not surprising. It's at least 500 years old, according to the OED: b. with clause, introduced by whether, if, that. (Often with but, but that, when the main clause is negative or interrogative: see but conj. 21.) ?Also formerly with inf. 1303 Brunne Handl. Synne 857 Hys dyscyplys doutede echoun Whe?er he shulde ryse or noun. 1340 Hampole Pr. Consc. 2965 ?e saule...?at doutes whethir he sal be dampned or save. 1513 More in Grafton Chron. (1568) II. 824 Not doubtyng but that...he should finde him faythfull. 1586 A. Day Eng. Sec. i. (1625) 130 Doubting how to have recompence. 1664 Butler Hud. ii. iii. 1029, I do not doubt To find friends that will bear me out. 1711 Steele Spect. No. 6 34, I do not doubt but England is at present as polite a Nation as any in the World. 1817 W. Selwyn Law Nisi Prius (ed. 4) II. 1059 It never was doubted, but that one partner might bind the rest. 1858 Hawthorne Fr. & It. Jrnls. (1872) I. 9, I doubt whether English cookery is not better. 1871 B. Taylor Faust (1875) II. Pref. 5 Schiller doubted that a poetic measure could be formed capable of holding Goethe's plan. 1891 Law Times XCII. 107/1 The master doubted if all remedies were not barred by the lapse of time. > in the langauge as I see it everywhere. I strongly doubt this claim. I doubt that there is any connection between your seeing the construction and its having become a commonplace of colloquial English and expository prose. I wouldn't use "it has inured in the language" to express that "it has endured and become commonplace in the language". > My impression - and I have > never before expressly thought this through - is that the sentence [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 'doubt whether' at all, consciously or unconsciously and if so,in what > way. That's correct, according to Fowler and Garner. I agree, but I have never thought about it, to be honest. > It occurs to me that we often have occasion to distinguish between the > shades of meaning mentioned above and that using 'doubt that' and > 'doubt whether' to distinguish between them is a very convenient device > and one that has the advantage of affording the benefit of > succinctness of expression over other alternatives. Yes, we do. > If this won't do, I'd like to hear suggestions on alternative ways > to express these shades of meaning neatly and succinctly. The contemporary trend is to ignore such niceties. Even educated native anglophones eschew them in preference to the expressive contextual grunt, belch, fart, or obscene gesture currently relied upon for disambiguating and nuancing communication whilst eagerly inhaling the ineffably divine afflatus exuded by the pleasingly familiar perfume of their own brand of the language, learnt at mama's knees and, therefore, not to be sneezed at, allergically speaking or otherwise. -- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "...the human population is 90% gullible, violence-prone dipshits, ..." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, December 06, 2006 http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ > I strongly doubt this claim. I doubt that there is any connection > between your seeing the construction and its having become a > commonplace of colloquial English and expository prose. Is'nt this rather self-contradictory?Might not one reasonably infer from the fact that one has seen an expression used often by reasonably educated folk,both native speakers and others that the expression has at least become commonplace, whether or not it has gained acceptance? Or are you suggesting that I can't possibly have read anything by people you would consider educated and English-savvy,being as I am not a part of the native-English-speaking elite? I wouldn't use > "it has inured in the language" to express that "it has endured and > become commonplace in the language". Quite. I looked up 'inure' in the dictionary and it does'nt quite cover the ground I unconsciously expected it to,from expressions such as 'a custom that had inured through usage'. 'Inure' apparently means 'come into use or operation' and not 'come into acceptance' or 'come into favour with the authorities' which is what I was trying to say. Thanks for your post. I have Fowler's book. That should clarify matters. If you really doubt that something is true (suspect that it's false), use "doubt that": "I doubt that Fred has really lost 25 pounds." If you want to express uncertainty, use "whether": "I doubt whether we'll see the comet if the clouds don't clear soon." "Doubt if" can be substituted for "doubt whether," though it's considered somewhat more casual, but don't use it when you mean "doubt that." > If you really doubt that something is true (suspect that it's false), > use "doubt that": "I doubt that Fred has really lost 25 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > though it's considered somewhat more casual, but don't use it when > you mean "doubt that." Thanks. Just what I thought. > > If you really doubt that something is true (suspect that it's false), > > use "doubt that": "I doubt that Fred has really lost 25 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > though it's considered somewhat more casual, but don't use it when > > you mean "doubt that." > Thanks. Just what I thought. Except that it isn't idiomatic. The comet sentence should be simply "I doubt we'll see the comet if the clouds don't clear." (You can insert "that" between "doubt" and "we'll." It means the same with or without.) "Doubt" by itself expresses all the uncertainty you need -- that's what it's there for. The extra dubiousness in the sentence about Fred comes from "really." That's how you fine-tune degrees of doubt -- with adverbs or with different language: "It's likely that Fred will show up." "I don't know whether Fred will show up or not." "I doubt that Fred will show up." "I really doubt that Fred will ever show up." "Fred isn't coming." Don't put more weight on one word or phrase than it will hold. The Brothers Fowler covered this almost a century ago: <http://www.bartleby.com/116/216.html>. The first use they discuss is pretty much moribund in American English today (I can't speak for elsewhere). If you never use "doubt whether," you won't be any the poorer.  SignatureBob Lieblich Mr. Certainty > If you really doubt that something is true (suspect that it's false), > use "doubt that": "I doubt that Fred has really lost 25 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > though it's considered somewhat more casual, but don't use it when > you mean "doubt that." I've really tried hard, but I really can't see any difference in meaning, even slight, between I doubt it's true I doubt that it's true I doubt whether it's true I doubt if it's true (I don't like "if" here, but it's common enough). SignatureRob Bannister > > I strongly doubt this claim. I doubt that there is any connection > > between your seeing the construction and its having become a > > commonplace of colloquial English and expository prose. > > Is'nt this rather self-contradictory? Not at all. Perhaps a bit ironic, though. > Might not one reasonably infer from the fact that one has > seen an expression used often by reasonably educated folk, I've yet to find such a person. Anyone who might have been able to lay claim to that title -- "reasonably educated" -- undoubtedly died before the beginning of the 20th century, and probably even before the beginning of the 18th. Most of us are unreasonably or insufficiently educated. Even the contemporary well-educated are far too narrowly educated. > both native speakers and others that the expression has at least > become commonplace, whether or not it has gained acceptance? As the OED entry I pasted pointed out, the expression has been used since the 16th century. I use it all the time. Most educated native anglophones use it. It's not incorrect and it is accepted when, as with everything and everyone, it is in its proper place, which differs according to one thing or another: you have to be there. > Or are you suggesting that I can't possibly have read anything by people > you would consider educated and English-savvy, Of course not. I am suggesting that there is no causal relationship between your observance of the use of "doubt that" and its correctness, its commonness, or its acceptance: we're talking about English usage, not the behavior of electrons. When used in the middle of a sentence as you did, "as I have heard..." means "because I have heard". It's a British-ambiguous barbarism, but the Brits love ambiguity; well, at least they are not generally bothered by it. I speak American, so I don't love it and I am bothered by it. > being as I am not a part of the native-English-speaking elite? I wasn't aware that there was a native-English-speaking elite -- based on their native anglophonism, at least. And I can't tell whether you're part of the native anglophone community or not: your English is too high-level and much better than that of many of the regulars here, respected and otherwise. One misused word is not enough to brand you as a native speaker of some language other than English. Neither is your name. The only thing that gives you away is your misuse of the apostrophe in negative contractions" it belongs between the "n" and the "t", as in "isn't" instead of *"is'nt" and "doesn't" instead of *"does'nt". >> I wouldn't use "it has inured in the language" to express that "it has > > endured and become commonplace in the language". > Quite. I looked up 'inure' in the dictionary and it does'nt quite > cover the ground I unconsciously expected it to,from expressions such > as 'a custom that had inured through usage'. 'Inure' apparently means > 'come into use or operation' and not 'come into acceptance' or 'come > into favour with the authorities' which is what I was trying to say. > Thanks for your post. I have Fowler's book. That should clarify matters. The trouble with Fowler's first and second editions is that they're old and cannot be relied upon to settle such questions in the 21st century. Much of what the experts (Fowler and a horde of others in the anglophone world) have to say is contradicted by popular usage as well as by scholarly, journalistic, and literary usage. The only authoritative English usage pundits around are those one agrees with, and when even they contradict, one can always turn to Jane Austen or Shakespeare or some other Ozymandian literatus or literata for anecdotal support. There are no certainties in English. It ain't science and it ain't religion. -- Franke: EFL teacher & medical editor Native speaker of American English; posting from Taiwan. "...the human population is 90% gullible, violence-prone dipshits, ..." Scott Adams, The Dilbert Blog, December 06, 2006 http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/ > > > > > Might not one reasonably infer from the fact that one has > > seen an expression used often by reasonably educated folk, [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Of course, there could be no causal relation. I am not even sure what that would mean in this context. What I meant was that you have no doubt applied the same sort of experience and the same sort of logic that I have in arriving at the proposition that 'doubt that' is commonplace, namely that you have read and heard people using the word often,people of reasonable education(with whatever qualifications to 'reasonable education' you choose to impose).Your inference is based on the same logic and from the same sort of experience,possibly of course, in your case, more extensive The only thing that gives you away is your misuse of the > apostrophe in negative contractions" it belongs between the "n" and the > "t", as in "isn't" instead of *"is'nt" and "doesn't" instead of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >I finally figured out why I used 'inure'. 'Inure' means 'to come into legal force'. Of course,this is usually said of laws,not words(or anything else). But at any rate, could'nt it be used as a figure in this sense. If not,I should be glad to be availed of alternatives. >Hi. I recently read somewhere that 'doubt that' is wrong and that one >should only say 'doubt whether'. But 'doubt that' seems to have inured [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >but that in the balance, you are inclined to believe that there was >none. [...] There have been two references to Fowler in this thread, both without the appropriate quotation. Here it is (from Fowler 2): "Doubt(ful). It is contrary to idiom to begin the clause that depends on these with 'that' instead of the usual 'whether', except when the sentence is negative [...] or interrogative [...].'Whether' (or 'if') is used to imply that doubt exists, 'that' (or 'but that') to imply that it does not." CW >>Hi. I recently read somewhere that 'doubt that' is wrong and that one >>should only say 'doubt whether'. But 'doubt that' seems to have inured [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >is used to imply that doubt exists, 'that' (or 'but that') to imply >that it does not." Those, if any there be, who are interested in the way language is used, as opposed to whether someone's rules are being followed, may like to note that there are millions of English-speakers, particularly in Scotland, Ireland, and the north of England, for whom "I doubt" is synonymous with "I think". SignatureDon Aitken Mail to the From: address is not read. To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com" [...] > Those, if any there be, who are interested in the way language is > used, as opposed to whether someone's rules are being followed, may > like to note that there are millions of English-speakers, particularly > in Scotland, Ireland, and the north of England, for whom "I doubt" is > synonymous with "I think". Glad you mentioned that, Don. I like also "misdoubt", which I think is now only Scottish -- or ScEtc. For kicks I occasionally treat myself to the structure "I doubt me". SignatureMike. >Those, if any there be, who are interested in the way language is >used, as opposed to whether someone's rules are being followed, may >like to note that there are millions of English-speakers, particularly >in Scotland, Ireland, and the north of England, for whom "I doubt" is >synonymous with "I think". Indeed, I had to learn that when my Nana (Penshaw, Co Durham) said "I doubt we'll do the messages after dinner" she meant "I think we'll go shopping after lunch". SignatureLinz Wet Yorks via Cambridge, York, London and Watford My accent may vary |
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