Criticize this piece of writing
|
|
Thread rating:  |
jinhyun - 01 Jan 2007 09:22 GMT Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly criticized for my writing. One of the members even said that my grammar,syntax and diction showed that I was a rank beginner. Being as this is not the case, and I have been learning and using English for at least 20 years, I was quite alarmed and even a little indignant. But it seems, on calmer consideration, that the gentleman who made those comments was led by nothing but the best intentions and he is withal deeply educated. So I submit the same piece of writing for criticism. But this time,I would like that gentleman as well as others to point out specifically where I have gone wrong rather than give general advice.
Here it is.
Hi. Recently, I said on one of my posts here that a certain phrase had 'inured' in the language, and was admonished for this offbeat use of 'inure' - quite justly,it seemed at the time. But later, I found that I
was able to organise a rather fair defense of this use of the word. The
meaning of 'inure' as a transitive verb need not detain us here; nor yet its meaning as 'accrue' in its intransitive avatar. But a third meaning for 'inure' as an intranitive verb is,as dictionaries would have it, 'to take effect' or 'come into practice', with the qualification that this is chiefly said of laws. But from such uses of 'inure' as saying that a custom has 'inured through usage', meaning, no
doubt, that the custom had come in time to assume legal force, it seems
that 'to assume legal force' is a more apposite description of 'inure' in this sense. Might we not then justly say of a word, instead of a law
or custom, that it had 'assumed legal force' to mean of course, in this
context, that it had gained credence with the authorities? Figuratively, we could still more extend the meaning of the word to embrace such meanings as 'become the done thing','become an integral part of goings on','become officially recognised and accepted'(whatever this last may mean in the context to which it is applied) and so on.At least the last
one, namely 'become officially recognised and accepted' (which is what we used in the original example),seems a quite fair figurative extension of the word's meaning. Of course, such rampant figurative extensions could render the original ambiguous since then to say that a
custom had inured may mean either that it had become a law or merely that it had become the done thing. But, of course, we could start saying 'legally inured' to mean what the original meant. Thus I would like to say that 1)An engineering technique has inured 2)A bad habit has inured 3)A word has inured in a language If this won't do at all,I would like to be availed of alternatives for expressing each of the above, preferably one word that will fit each occasion, or if different words are necessary, I should still prefer the job to be done by a single intransitive verb in each several case, rather than resort to passive forms such as 'become established' or 'become entrenched', but as a last resort, do mention the more appropriate passive or other forms you can think of in each case. Thanks.
Criticize everything - the choice of words,the syntax,the general diction,the grammar - but everything. But keep your criticism specific and avoid trailing off to generalities.Also, every time you criticize an expression, include the alternative expression you would use in your answers. To start the ball rolling,I have included some comments on some specific points raised by the gentleman who criticised my original post. He criticized 1)The use of 'offbeat' as in 'I was admonished for my offbeat use of 'inure'. '. 2)The use of 'avatar' as in 'the word in its intransitive 'avatar'.' (Here I admit that I may have used an expression which in English at least has a rather inflated. ring to it.The word comes from Sanskrit and my familiarity with it predated my English studies.In English,I doubt that the word has really caught on except among Indophiles.But it can be very useful) 3)The use of 'embrace' as in 'we could still more extend the scope of the word to embrace such meanings as 'become the done thing' etc. 4)The use of 'detain' as in 'The meaning of 'inure' as a transitive verb need not detain us here'. (This criticism in particular puzzles me greatly,as I see this use of 'detain' quite commonly in textbooks et al. What is meant of couse is that we need not be long held up by considerations of the transitive meaning of 'inure' since we will not be discussing that) 5)The use of 'apposite' as in ' it seems that 'to assume legal force' is a more apposite description of 'inure' in this sense.' (Again, this puzzles me since I have always taken 'apposite' to mean 'appropriate' or 'well-put' which is just what I am trying to say here.) 6)The use of 'credence' as in 'the word has gained credence with the authorities'. (Here,I admit that I am at my weakest ground. 'Credence' does mean acceptance but usually 'acceptance as true' It can also mean trustworthiness,respectability,creditability as in 'a man of credence' .But to use it to mean 'respectability and creditability' as in 'gain credence' seems to be pushing it.) 7)The use of 'rampant' as in 'Of course, such rampant figurative extensions could render the original ambiguous'. (Surely, this is a bit much.'Rampant' to mean uncontrolled or unbridled is a very familiar figure.)
Also, he mentions that I had used some pairs of words together that did not belong together. The only example I could find was 'rather fair' as in 'I found that I was able to organise a rather fair defense of this use of the word'. 'Fair' itself is a toned-down version of 'good' and to tone it down further with 'rather' makes the construction look absurd.It seems that I would do better in this case to say 'quite fair'.I would like of be availed of all the other examples you can find.
Furthermore,there were some comments on my taste in intransitive verbs. On my post,I had said 'I would like to be availed of alternatives for expressing each of the above, preferably one word that will fit each occasion or if different words are necessary I should still prefer the job to be done by a single intransitive verb in each several case'. My notion is that passive constructions are in general a little stilted except in such cases as 'I was beaten up by ruffians'.To say that a word has 'inured' seems pleasanter than to say that the word has become established. Most people would prefer to say that the word has gained acceptance keeping it in the active voice. Is a taste for keeping a construction in the active voice except in some limited contexts where it does not seem stilted really so bizarre as all that?
jinhyun - 01 Jan 2007 12:04 GMT > 5)The use of 'apposite' as in ' it seems that 'to assume legal force' > is a more apposite description of 'inure' in this sense.' > (Again, this puzzles me since I have always taken 'apposite' to mean > 'appropriate' or 'well-put' which is just what I am trying to say > here.) I might just have an inkling of what makes this use of 'apposite' inapposite for this occassion.Apposite properly means 'suitable' and not quite 'appropriate' or 'proper'. One may not describe the meaning of a word more suitably but only more properly. This seems to me like splitting hairs. But anyway,what do you guys think? Is this the problem? What would be a better way to phrase this? 'It seems that 'to assume legal force' is a better phrased description of the meaning of 'inure' in this sense.', possibly?
CDB - 01 Jan 2007 14:43 GMT > Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly > criticized for my writing. One of the members even said that my [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Here it is. [piece of writing]
Maybe someone else will give you the detailed corrections you asked for. I just wanted to say that your English is generally correct and clear; the problem is that you don't seem to have complete control of register (stylistic level) and connotation. As the poster you referred to said, I think*, if you want to improve further your best course is to read modern English: works by good writers of both fiction and non-fiction from the last thirty or forty years. At your present level of ability, learning more rules for individual cases will probably be less productive than working to develop a better instinct for English style. _______________ *I don't have their posts to hand, of course. It would have been better to post these latest messages in the same thread as the others, instead of starting a new one. Making it as easy as possible for your readers to check what has already been said on the subject makes it more likely that someone will be moved to give you a useful answer.
jinhyun - 01 Jan 2007 14:57 GMT > > Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly > > criticized for my writing. One of the members even said that my [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > readers to check what has already been said on the subject makes it > more likely that someone will be moved to give you a useful answer. Hi. Thanks for your post. Actually my problem is that I don't know how to find these posts once they are elbowed off the main page by newer posts.I should like to be given directions on how to find older posts. Sorry. I know that this is an English usage group but some general directions would be much appreciated. Another problem is whether older posts can be reasonably expected to attract the attention of posters once they have been nudged off the front page. Thanks.
CDB - 01 Jan 2007 15:15 GMT >>> Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly >>> criticized for my writing. One of the members even said that my [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>> [piece of writing] >> [general comments]
>> It would have been >> better to post these latest messages in the same thread as the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > is whether older posts can be reasonably expected to attract the > attention of posters once they have been nudged off the front page. AUE is a usage group, but many of its regulars are expert in all aspects of IT; unfortunately, I am not one of these. I think there may be a solution to your problem: using Outlook Express and the Usenet service provider aioe, I have been able to arrange my settings to retain messages for five days after reading. I hope someone here will be able to tell you how to do something similar.
Marius Hancu - 01 Jan 2007 16:19 GMT > Actually my problem is that I don't know how > to find these posts once they are elbowed off the main page by newer > posts.I should like to be given directions on how to find older posts. > Sorry. I know that this is an English usage group but some general > directions would be much appreciated. I assume that you're using a browser for reading this newsgroups (such as Mozilla, Firefox, IE).
In this case, go to this URL/address:
http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search
In that form, fill in: Find messages with all of the words: jinhyun Group Return only messages from the group at this location: alt.usage.english
This should do it for you.
Marius Hancu
Oleg Lego - 01 Jan 2007 16:45 GMT The jinhyun entity posted thusly:
>> > Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly >> > criticized for my writing. One of the members even said that my [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >posts can be reasonably expected to attract the attention of posters >once they have been nudged off the front page. Thanks. One of the problems with using a web-based interface for usenet is that you are at the mercy of their methodology. Reading news more directly, either through your ISP or through a news server SuperNews, for one), allows you far more control over your operation.
I recommend Forte's Free Agent, which is a freeware version of a great newsreader. It will allow you to 'keep' threads as long as you like, or to discard them immediately.
dominationboy@onet.eu - 01 Jan 2007 16:34 GMT > Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly criticized > for my writing. One of the members even said that my grammar,syntax and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > led by nothing but the best intentions and he is withal deeply > educated. You misunderstood, Jinyun. I most certainly did not call you a "rank beginner. I quote:
> For a learner, Jinhyun is doing a pretty good job. He just has some > pretty bizarre ideas about the language... The vocabulary > he's trying to use is far beyond his level, based on his grammar and > syntax. This is true. You have major problems with register. You have some problems with syntax, grammar and sentence structure, but by no means at the "rank beginner" level. You also do have some "pretty bizarre" ideas about scholarly speech and writing that are rather divorced from reality.
Your language is not "formal". It's extremely stilted. No native speaker would ever write that way unless he desperately wanted to be pushed in the mud. (Actually, that's not exactly true. Many native-speaking highschool and college students go through a similar phase when they are learning to write, and many never grow out of it.)
The result is that you're not giving the impression that you're educated and cultured. You're giving the impression that you're a smart-a.s Mr.-thinks-he-knows-it-all, and you don't want to do that. The purpose of language is to communicate, not alienate. This is what I meant when I wrote that you have problems with register.
I also wrote:
> What they [language learners] don't understand is > that even the largest bi-lingual dictionaries only provide [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > such as Michael Crichton, Stephen King, Clive Cussler > and the like. This is very good advice. It seems like you spend a lot of your time learning and theorizing about the mechanics of the language, and not enough time exposing yourself to the normal speech and writing of native speakers. You seem to be modeling your writing on some ideal that you have concocted from your reading of textbooks and dictionaries instead of modeling it on actual usage. In other words, you've invented your own version of the language, and are frustrated because you've been told that it's not quite right.
My advice still holds. Read and listen to a lot more "normal" English before you try using vocabulary to "impress people". In particular, read more popular writers and listen to NPR's All Things Considered and similar programs. If you speak like they do on that program, people will be genuinely impressed.
You also have to trust native speakers when they give you advice. They know a lot more about the language than you do, and a lot more than any dictionary or coursebook. If a native speaker tells you that something you write sounds odd, it probably is odd, regardless of what the dictionary or the grammar book says. You are at the level where you should be modeling your language on the normal language of educated native speakers instead of on the artificial language presented in material for learners, which is often simplified and unnatural.
Don't feel bad. Most language learners have the same problems. I myself do. My Polish is often far from natural. And like you, my vocabulary is way out of step with my usage.
Keep up the good work. Good luck!
Dominic Bojarski
PS: CBD wrote:
> I don't have their posts to hand, of course. It would have been > better to post these latest messages in the same thread as the others, > instead of starting a new one. Making it as easy as possible for your > readers to check what has already been said on the subject makes it > more likely that someone will be moved to give you a useful answer. I was just about to write the same.
Don Phillipson - 01 Jan 2007 18:27 GMT > > I advise my students not to use a word that they > > haven't seen "in the wild" at least ten times. > > By "in the wild", I mean in normal, popular literature > > such as Michael Crichton, Stephen King, Clive Cussler > > and the like.
> This is very good advice. Problem -- this may be much too narrow a definition of "the wild" or the environment of modern English usage.
Most language students have some other professional interests as well: they are learning English as part of their training to become lawyers, engineers, teachers, chemists, office managers, etc. So "the wild" is for these the huge quantity of books and journals for law, engineering, teaching etc., much of which may be easier to understand in English than the intricacies of ghetto life in Los Angeles, Miss Marple's neighbours in St. Mary Meade etc. etc.
If we recommend only fiction to language students, we should encourage them to cover the whole range of English fiction, British and Commonwealth as well as American, for linguistic as well as cultural reasons, and perhaps with special attention to English fiction set in the country where the student was born, e.g. Pearl Buck or Ernest Bramah on China.
 Signature Don Phillipson Carlsbad Springs (Ottawa, Canada)
CDB - 01 Jan 2007 21:36 GMT [...]
> If we recommend only fiction to language students, we > should encourage them to cover the whole range of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in the country where the student was born, e.g. Pearl > Buck or Ernest Bramah on China. The first elegant footstep of a Chinese poster, so smiled on by all the fortunate gods as to have been weaned on the illustrious works of the sage Bramah, over the unprepossessing threshold of any newsgroup frequented by your altogether deformed and insignificant interlocutor, must inevitably provide to the illustrious and discerning Regulars thereof a gravity-reducing experience of the greatest distinction. Pearl Buck, not so much.
Mike Lyle - 01 Jan 2007 22:07 GMT > [...] > > If we recommend only fiction to language students, we [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > thereof a gravity-reducing experience of the greatest distinction. > Pearl Buck, not so much. Ah! It is impossible that this outcast person, of degraded habits and altogether lacking in ancestors of the least distinction, could have read any printed leaves which had escaped the notice of a Mandarin so symmetrical in appearance and of such sublime intelligence as he in the light of whose exalted presence he now unworthily basks.
 Signature Mike.
CDB - 02 Jan 2007 12:33 GMT >> [...] >>> If we recommend only fiction to language students, we [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> [uninspired and inadequate response]
> Ah! It is impossible that this outcast person, of degraded habits > and altogether lacking in ancestors of the least distinction, could > have read any printed leaves which had escaped the notice of a > Mandarin so symmetrical in appearance and of such sublime > intelligence as he in the light of whose exalted presence he now > unworthily basks. Even this degenerate insect may perceive that he cringes before the benign effulgence of an Old Bramah Hand.
dominationboy@onet.eu - 01 Jan 2007 22:36 GMT > > > I advise my students not to use a word that they > > > haven't seen "in the wild" at least ten times. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > Carlsbad Springs > (Ottawa, Canada) Sorry, Don. This discussion has been going on in three different threads, which has caused a little confusion. I have already mentioned most of the points you bring up in the other threads. I have already advised Jinhyun as follows:
>It's a good idea to listen to and read both American and British >English, and Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, Irish, Scottish, Welsh, >and other varieties as well. The problem that Jinhyun and many other language learners have is that they they try to use specialized and formal language BEFORE they have normal contemporary usage down pat. No one is ever going to become a good scientific or legal writer if the only source of their English is scientific or legal writing. They should first focus on more general varieties of English before attempting to produce specialized varieties.
I often receive papers written by scientists who know the technical and specialist vocabulary well, but still write terribly because they have not exposed themselves to modern general English.
Technical, scientific and legal language use a very limited range of vocabulary, grammar and syntax (that is, if one reads within his own specialty). Students need to be exposed to a wider range, first to modern popular literature, and only then to classic literature and other more specialized sources both within and outside of their own specialties.
The list of authors I cited is by no means exhaustive, and in other parts of the discussion, I have mentioned non-American writer's as well, including Tolkien and Rawlins. The criteria I used to select them are the following:
1) Widely available in most countries both in English and in translation; This is important, because I advise my students that the first book that they should read in English be the original of a book they have already read in translation. This cuts down on time-consuming dictionary work.
2) Complex enough to be interesting without being overwhelming;
3) Representative of normal contemporary standard usage. I don't think "Finnegan's Wake", "To the Lighthouse", or "Moby Dick" would be appropriate models for language learners at Jinhyun's level. In fact, it seems that he has already been exposed to enough of the classics for now, to the point where he as developed some bad habits;
4) Likely to have been read by many native speakers, so that the student has a realistic chance of discussing the book with native speaking teachers, colleagues or penpals; and
5) Likely to be available in audio-book format.
Tolkein might seem a strange choice based on criterion #3. However, his practically solid Anglo-Saxon-based writing is a healthy antidote to the Normanisms and Latinisms students are exposed to when they read academic literature.
I also advise my students to listen to NPR's "All Things Considered" AND EQUIVALENT NON-AMERICAN PROGRAMS because the range of topics is very great and the language used is scholarly without being stilted.
I'm not advising students to read ONLY fiction, but to concentrate on it until they have read five or ten books, and to develop the Anglo-Saxon basis of English before they try to produce Latinate academic prose.
Dominic Bojarski
UC - 02 Jan 2007 14:13 GMT > Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly criticized > for my writing. One of the members even said that my grammar, syntax and > diction showed that I was a rank beginner. Being as this is not the > case, and I have been learning and using English for at least 20 years, > I was 'became', not 'was'.
> quite alarmed and even a little indignant. 'alarmed'? No, perhaps 'angry' or 'dismayed'.
> But it seems, on > calmer consideration, No! ".....after I cooled off...."
> that the gentleman who made those comments was > led by nothing but the best intentions and he is withal 'withal' is archaic. Do not use.
> deeply No, 'highly'.
> educated. So I [am] submit[ting] the same piece of writing for criticism [again]
>. But this > time, "This time, however,..."
>I would like Not 'like', but 'ask'
> that gentleman as well as others to point out > specifically where I have gone wrong rather than give general advice. On inure:
Main Entry:inure Pronunciation:**n(y)*(*)r, -** Variant:or enure \**-, e*-\ Function:verb Inflected Form:-ed/-ing/-s Etymology:inure alteration (influenced by 2in-) of enure, from Middle English enuren, from 1en- + ure, n., use, custom * more at URE
transitive verb : ACCUSTOM : discipline to accept something : HABITUATE *inured to the smell of the stable* *a public T that is inured to certain ways of seeing and thinking John Dewey* *being stationed at an arctic base inures a man to cold* intransitive verb : to come into operation : become operative *we are dealing with a relation T that might virtually inure by usage only W.E.Gladstone* : ACCRUE *the profits inure to the benefit of hospitals for crippled children D.A.Reed*; specifically : to become legally effective *when there is such an identity of interest between the taxpayers that a refund to one will inure to the benefit of the other T the unsatisfied liability may be recovered W.T.Plumb* synonyms see HARDEN
jinhyun - 02 Jan 2007 16:08 GMT > > Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly criticized > > for my writing. One of the members even said that my grammar, syntax and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > 'became', not 'was'. I agree
> > quite alarmed and even a little indignant. > > 'alarmed'? No, perhaps 'angry' or 'dismayed'. No. I was actually alarmed.I wasn't so much angry at the gentleman as I was crushed by his criticism and sincerly panicked. The indignation came later.
> > But it seems, on calmer consideration, > > No! ".....after I cooled off...." I didn't quite cool off as much as I calmed down. But could I trouble you to tell me whether 'on calmer consideration' has anything more against it than that it sounds rather awkward? Would 'calmer reflection' perhaps be better?
> > that the gentleman who made those comments was > > led by nothing but the best intentions and he is withal > > 'withal' is archaic. Do not use. >I know that withal is archaic but it is a delightful sounding word. Besides it is unlikely that any educated native speaker will be at odds to understand my meaning since the word is frequently used in the older classics and has moreover,I suspect, an active dialectic use.I think I'll just keep this one.
> > deeply
> No, 'highly'. >I know the idiom takes 'highly' before educated.But people may be only widely educated and still be called highly educated.If your education is only broad but not deep,you might not be quite the person to depend upon for precise and veracious advice. So I [am] submit[ting] the same piece of writing for criticism [again]
I thought that the use of the present continouus in such a case was considered vulgar.But perhaps that taste itself has become archaic?I certainly agree that the omission of 'again' is incorrect.
> >. But this > > time, > > "This time, however,..." I don't quite see how the latter is better than the former or even different from it.Could I trouble you to explain this further?
> >I would like > > Not 'like', but 'ask' Here, I think, there are two options. Either I should say 'I should like' or, as you say, 'I would ask' meaning the same as 'I should like to ask'.But, of course,'I should like to ask' sounds hideous.
> > that gentleman as well as others to point out > > specifically where I have gone wrong rather than give general advice. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > the unsatisfied liability may be recovered W.T.Plumb* > synonyms see HARDEN Thanks. But I have the shorter O.E.D. I wasn't so much asking for its existing meaning as I was trying to propose extending the word's meaning figuratively extending the meaning of the word in its intransitive form as 'come into effect' or more properly,as I interpreted from the example 'gain legal force' to wider contexts.But we need not dwell on that any more.
Thanks a lot for your post. I hope I can depend on you to criticize a few more pieces of writing that I propose to put up in future,in which I will try to incorporate some of the advice I have recieved but which I will also try to write more on instinct rather than trying to affect an unnatural tone.Much appreciated.
UC - 02 Jan 2007 21:27 GMT > > > Hi. Recently I posted something on this site and was roundly criticized > > > for my writing. One of the members even said that my grammar, syntax and [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > 'withal' is archaic. Do not use. > >I know that withal is archaic but it is a delightful sounding word. No, don't use it. It's archaic if not obsolete. It hasn't been used widely since Shakespeare.
> Besides it is unlikely that any educated native speaker will be at odds to understand > my meaning since the word is frequently used in the older classics and has > moreover,I suspect, an active dialectic use.I think I'll just keep this one. Look, friend, don't come here asking for advice and then tell us you're going to ignore it.
Main Entry:1withal Pronunciation:w****l, -th*l Function:adverb Etymology:Middle English withal, withall, from with, preposition, + al, all all * more at WITH, ALL
1 : together with this : in addition : BESIDES *he was a supporter of all constructive work and withal an excellent business man A.W.Long* 2 archaic : THEREWITH *if he do bleed, I'll gild the faces of the grooms withal Shakespeare* 3 : on the other hand : for all that : NEVERTHELESS *incessantly badgering, cajoling and driving, but a gentleman withal Anthony Leviero* *her voice was hoarse and rough but had an appealing warmth withal Peter Abrahams*
> > > deeply > > > No, 'highly'. > >I know the idiom takes 'highly' before educated.But people may be only widely educated and still be called highly educated.If your education is only broad but not deep,you might not be quite the person to depend upon for precise and veracious advice. The idiom is "highly educated" and nothing else. You can add 'broad', but not 'deeply'; that;s not idiomatic.
> So I [am] submit[ting] the same piece of writing for criticism > [again] > > > I thought that the use of the present continouus in such a case was > considered vulgar. No, it's quite proper.
>But perhaps that taste itself has become archaic?I > certainly agree that the omission of 'again' is incorrect. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I don't quite see how the latter is better than the former or even > different from it.Could I trouble you to explain this further? Don't start sentences with 'but'; but you can start a clause with it, that is, you can use it right after a semicolon.
> > >I would like > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > like' or, as you say, 'I would ask' meaning the same as 'I should like > to ask'.But, of course,'I should like to ask' sounds hideous. "I ask" is what I meant, in case it was not clear..
> > > that gentleman as well as others to point out > > > specifically where I have gone wrong rather than give general advice. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > interpreted from the example 'gain legal force' to wider contexts.But > we need not dwell on that any more. What you want to do is irrelevant. The proper uses of 'inure' were established long before you or your parents were born.
> Thanks a lot for your post. I hope I can depend on you to criticize a > few more pieces of writing that I propose to put up in future,in which > I will try to incorporate some of the advice I have recieved but which > I will also try to write more on instinct rather than trying to affect > an unnatural tone.Much appreciated.
|
|
|