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darras - 02 Jan 2007 10:20 GMT

New Year's greetings to all. By the way, "year" here takes "'s". Why
not in "He delivered the customary New Year address to the nation" ?

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Lars Eighner - 02 Jan 2007 11:26 GMT

> New Year's greetings to all. By the way, "year" here takes "'s". Why
> not in "He delivered the customary New Year address to the nation" ?

The short answer is: it very well could be "He delivered the customary New
Year's address to the nation." Although the grammatical difference seems
obvious, in this and many similar cases I have never found anyone who could
really express what the difference in meaning, if there is one, might be.

Yes, there are some cases in which there is a difference in meaning.

He is driving the Ford car.
This answers the question "Which car is he driving?" He is driving
the one made by the Ford Motor Company.

He is driving the Fords' car.
This answers the question "Whose car is he driving?" He is driving
one that belongs to the Ford family.

Situations like this hardly ever bother anyone or raise any questions.

As is often the case, the sharpest debates occur when the difference is
minimal. A very sharp one indeed is whether it should be "The Writers
League" or "The Writers' League." Everyone in the league is a writer and
considers him- or herself an expert on grammar. The problem is that English
nouns work very well as adjectives. So, "The Writers League" is a kind of
league with/for writers and "The Writers' League" is a league of writers.
You have a more discerning ear for English than I if you can find in that
distinction anything worthy of hours --- indeed of months -- of arcimonious
discussions in which everyone thinks everyone else is an imbecile and says
so.

Well, is it "Fall fashions" or "Fall's fashions"? The answer is pick one of
them, and when an editor detects your error, apologize profusely and promise
to avoid such errors in the future. Then go out for coffee and forget it.

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Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> <http://myspace.com/larseighner>
Maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground rise up and smite thee.

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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 02 Jan 2007 19:26 GMT

> > New Year's greetings to all. By the way, "year" here takes "'s". Why
> > not in "He delivered the customary New Year address to the nation" ?
>
> The short answer is: it very well could be "He delivered the customary New
> Year's address to the nation."

Agreed. I'd say it could also be "New Year greetings to all".

A complication here is that the day is called New Year's Day, of which
New Year's is a good abbreviation. I know non-standard speakers who
use New Year's in all contexts, even "Happy New Year's!"

> Although the grammatical difference seems
> obvious, in this and many similar cases I have never found anyone who could
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> considers him- or herself an expert on grammar. The problem is that English
> nouns work very well as adjectives.

However, they work especially well when they're singular: a car (or
auto) mechanic works on car, a leaf blower blows leaves, your brake
lines control your brakes, etc. This is less true in Britain, where
they have trades unions and drugs squads (or something like
that)--though even we have narcotics agents, since a narcotic agent
would be something else.

> So, "The Writers League" is a kind of
> league with/for writers and "The Writers' League" is a league of writers.
> You have a more discerning ear for English than I if you can find in that
> distinction anything worthy of hours --- indeed of months -- of arcimonious
> discussions in which everyone thinks everyone else is an imbecile and says
> so.

...

Beats working.

> Well, is it "Fall fashions" or "Fall's fashions"? The answer is pick one of
> them, and when an editor detects your error, apologize profusely and promise
> to avoid such errors in the future. Then go out for coffee and forget it.

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Jerry Friedman

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Mike Lyle - 02 Jan 2007 19:36 GMT

[...]

> However, they work especially well when they're singular: a car (or
> auto) mechanic works on car, a leaf blower blows leaves, your brake
> lines control your brakes, etc. This is less true in Britain, where
> they have trades unions and drugs squads (or something like
> that)--though even we have narcotics agents, since a narcotic agent
> would be something else.

[...]

Don't be mizzled. The rule is the same in BrE: you'd be quite at home
with the drug squad, and I've always maintained (including in AUE) that
"Trades Union Congress" is just a mistake somebody made in a
smoke-filled room after being mesmerised by too many courts martial,
procurators fiscal, and plays pleasant.

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Mike.

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R J Valentine - 03 Jan 2007 03:19 GMT

...
} A complication here is that the day is called New Year's Day, of which
} New Year's is a good abbreviation. I know non-standard speakers who
} use New Year's in all contexts, even "Happy New Year's!"
...

Not to mention "Happy Valentine's!"

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rjv
(aka the day after the movie comes out on DVD.)

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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007

genitives