The origin of "loo" redux
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Will - 03 Jan 2007 11:49 GMT The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for troublesome words and phrases.
http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2121675.ece
Will.
the Omrud - 03 Jan 2007 12:18 GMT billrigby@hotmail.com had it:
> The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for > troublesome words and phrases. > > http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2121675.ece Well, the Indy may be reporting it, but it's the BBC in the driving seat: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/wordhunt/
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the Omrud - 03 Jan 2007 12:25 GMT usenet.omrud@gmail.com had it:
> billrigby@hotmail.com had it: > > The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > seat: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/wordhunt/ And I hesitate to mention it, but Victoria Coren wants to know "if you went dogging before 1993".
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John Dean - 03 Jan 2007 17:36 GMT > usenet.omrud@gmail.com had it: >> billrigby@hotmail.com had it: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > And I hesitate to mention it, but Victoria Coren wants to know "if > you went dogging before 1993". Does she think she may have recognised you?
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the Omrud - 03 Jan 2007 17:42 GMT john-dean@fraglineone.net had it:
> > usenet.omrud@gmail.com had it: > >> billrigby@hotmail.com had it: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Does she think she may have recognised you? More likely, she's worried that I might have recognised her.
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jerry_friedman@yahoo.com - 03 Jan 2007 18:34 GMT > john-dean@fraglineone.net had it: > > > usenet.omrud@gmail.com had it: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > More likely, she's worried that I might have recognised her. Okay, could you please settle this one? Who is dogging, the exhibitionists or the voyeurs or both? And should I have said "Who are dogging...?"
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the Omrud - 03 Jan 2007 18:47 GMT jerry_friedman@yahoo.com had it:
> > john-dean@fraglineone.net had it: > > > > usenet.omrud@gmail.com had it: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > exhibitionists or the voyeurs or both? And should I have said "Who are > dogging...?" No, I don't think I can settle it. If forced to give an uninformed opinion, I reckon it's both.
 Signature David =====
Jeffrey Turner - 04 Jan 2007 00:40 GMT >>john-dean@fraglineone.net had it: >> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > exhibitionists or the voyeurs or both? And should I have said "Who are > dogging...?" According to wiktionary:
dogging
1. (UK) The sexual practice of having sex in public places, especially parks, deliberately taking the chance of being watched
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Robin Bignall - 03 Jan 2007 22:56 GMT >billrigby@hotmail.com had it: >> The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >seat: >http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/wordhunt/ They report wazzock - a stupid person, an idiot - as originating in 1984, but my father called such people wezzocks in the 1940s WIWAL.
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Vinny Burgoo - 07 Jan 2007 20:24 GMT In alt.usage.english, Robin Bignall wrote:
>On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:18:56 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com>
>>Well, the Indy may be reporting it, but it's the BBC in the driving >>seat: >>http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/wordhunt/ > >They report wazzock - a stupid person, an idiot - as originating in >1984, but my father called such people wezzocks in the 1940s WIWAL. I certainly heard "wazzock" in 1981. An ex-RAF chap from Wiltshire was forever flinging it about. I think he said it was RAF rather than Wiltshire slang.
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Robin Bignall - 07 Jan 2007 22:09 GMT >In alt.usage.english, Robin Bignall wrote: >>On Wed, 03 Jan 2007 12:18:56 GMT, the Omrud <usenet.omrud@gmail.com> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >forever flinging it about. I think he said it was RAF rather than >Wiltshire slang. My father was in the infantry in WW1, so I doubt its aeronautical origin in his case. I always thought it was local (north Nottingham) dialect, for his speech was peppered with such words, most of which dropped from my active vocabulary decades ago.
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Evan Kirshenbaum - 04 Jan 2007 01:38 GMT > billrigby@hotmail.com had it: >> The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > seat: > http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/programmes/wordhunt/ "Shaggy dog story" (barely) before 1946 is pretty easy:
This is a "shaggy dog" story, the tale of a "he" dog with a "she" name that is being dischaged from the Army here tomorrow night after serving for three years as the official camp mascot. [_NY Times_, 12/31/1945
For all those who like Shaggy Dog stories, here is a Shaggy Skunk tale that is going the rounds. [_LA Times_, 11/25/1945. Yes, you guessed it: "In stinct".]
"Wolf whistle" before 1952 is a bit easier:
First of the stars to appear was the luscious Jinx Falkenburg, who, accustomed to appearing at Army camps where she has trouble making herself heard above the wolf-whistles, had to adjust herself to an audience made up largely of government girls, Waves and such. [Bill Henry, _LA Times_, 1/31/1944]
I've sent these in.
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tinwhistler - 04 Jan 2007 01:57 GMT [snip]
> "Shaggy dog story" (barely) before 1946 is pretty easy: > > This is a "shaggy dog" story, the tale of a "he" dog with a "she" > name that is being dischaged from the Army here tomorrow night > after serving for three years as the official camp mascot. [_NY > Times_, 12/31/1945 [snip]
Fred Shapiro posting at ADS-L had an antedate for "shaggy dog story:"
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 4:01 PM] Subject: Antedating of "Shaggy Dog Story"
The OED's earliest citation for "shaggy dog story" is dated 1946. Here's an antedating:
1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as almost everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in which animals talk, humans do inexplicable things, and the punch lines make no sense at all.
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Mark Brader - 04 Jan 2007 11:21 GMT > 1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as almost > everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in which > animals talk, humans do inexplicable things, and the punch lines > make no sense at all. That's not what I understand the phrase to mean.
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Leslie Danks - 04 Jan 2007 11:44 GMT >> 1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as almost >> everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in which >> animals talk, humans do inexplicable things, and the punch lines >> make no sense at all. > > That's not what I understand the phrase to mean. Me neither. I've always understood a shaggy-dog story to be a "joke" that took an inordinate length of time to relate and whose punch line was often a pun and usually incredibly feeble. If anyone laughed at the end, it was probably from a sense of relief that the dreadful experience was over.
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Tony Cooper - 04 Jan 2007 13:35 GMT >>> 1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as almost >>> everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in which [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >a pun and usually incredibly feeble. If anyone laughed at the end, it was >probably from a sense of relief that the dreadful experience was over. To me, a shaggy dog story is a long joke - often replete with asides and excursions into non-related mini-stories, with a weak punch line, but can be very humorous if the teller of the shaggy dog story is a good joke teller. The laughing starts before the punch line, and the punch line often results in a groan. There's an art to telling a shaggy dog story. The Irish comedian, Dave Allen, had the knack.
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tinwhistler - 04 Jan 2007 16:32 GMT [snip]
> To me, a shaggy dog story is a long joke - often replete with asides > and excursions into non-related mini-stories, with a weak punch line, > but can be very humorous if the teller of the shaggy dog story is a > good joke teller. The laughing starts before the punch line, and the > punch line often results in a groan. There's an art to telling a > shaggy dog story. The Irish comedian, Dave Allen, had the knack. [snip]
Perry Smith, who edited _The Harvard Lampoon_ when I was in college, once opined to me that the original understanding of "shaggy dog story" was as Cerf stated, but that the over-use of the phrase over time resulted in a pollution of that fairly specific meaning, especially the part about animals talking.
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Tony Cooper - 04 Jan 2007 17:24 GMT >[snip] >> To me, a shaggy dog story is a long joke - often replete with asides [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >resulted in a pollution of that fairly specific meaning, especially the >part about animals talking. I don't think a talking animal is essential to a shaggy dog story, but any story with a (non-human) animal walking into a bar has the potential of being a shaggy dog story.
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athel...@yahoo - 04 Jan 2007 16:47 GMT > >> 1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as almost > >> everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in which [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a pun and usually incredibly feeble. If anyone laughed at the end, it was > probably from a sense of relief that the dreadful experience was over. Up to a point that is what I also understand a shaggy-dog story to be, except that my recollection is that a shaggy-dog story starts out by grabbing everyone's interest and then wanders off into something pointless with no punch line at all.
athel
Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2007 21:27 GMT > > >> 1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as almost > > >> everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in which [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > grabbing everyone's interest and then wanders off into something > pointless with no punch line at all. I once asked my father why they were called "shaggy-dog stories". He said the original one was, indeed, about a shaggy dog, a story which, since I had not heard it, he then proceeded to relate. I've no idea if it really was the original, but it certainly fulfilled one of the above criteria. Here it is, in severely eviscerated form.
A man has lost a dog. "Describe it, please." "Well, it's shaggy." They show him dogs: no. At long last they show him a very shaggy dog. "No, my dog wasn't as shaggy as all that."
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Tony Cooper - 04 Jan 2007 21:36 GMT >I once asked my father why they were called "shaggy-dog stories". He >said the original one was, indeed, about a shaggy dog, a story which, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >show him dogs: no. At long last they show him a very shaggy dog. "No, >my dog wasn't as shaggy as all that." That's OK. I'm sure your father was a very nice man. Some people just can't tell a joke.
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Roland Hutchinson - 04 Jan 2007 22:05 GMT >> > >> 1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as >> > >> almost everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > show him dogs: no. At long last they show him a very shaggy dog. "No, > my dog wasn't as shaggy as all that." That's the one! The cannonical, prototypical, and likely the Ur-, shaggy dog story, as received in tradition.
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tinwhistler - 04 Jan 2007 22:40 GMT [snip]
> > A man has lost a dog. "Describe it, please." "Well, it's shaggy." They > > show him dogs: no. At long last they show him a very shaggy dog. "No, > > my dog wasn't as shaggy as all that." > > That's the one! The cannonical, prototypical, and likely the Ur-, shaggy > dog story, as received in tradition. [snip]
A rival candidate for being the original:
A woman pregnant with triplets was walking down the street when a masked robber ran out of a bank and shot her three times in the stomach. Luckily, the babies were OK. However, the surgeon decided not to remove the bullets as it would risk the health of the babies.
A few weeks later, she gave birth to two healthy daughters and a healthy son. All were fine for 16 years, and then one day one of her daughters walked into the room in tears.
"What's wrong?" asked the mother.
"I was taking a pee and this bullet came out!" replied the daughter.
The mother told her it was okay and explained what happened 16 years ago.
About a week later the second daughter walked into the room in tears.
"Mom, I was taking a pee and this bullet came out!" Again the mother told her not to worry and explained what had happened 16 years ago.
A week later her son walked into the room in tears. "It's okay," said the mom, "I know what happened; you were taking a pee and a bullet came out."
"No," said the boy, "I was playing with myself and I shot the dog."
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Evan Kirshenbaum - 05 Jan 2007 02:20 GMT >> I once asked my father why they were called "shaggy-dog >> stories". He said the original one was, indeed, about a shaggy dog, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > That's the one! The cannonical, prototypical, and likely the Ur-, shaggy > dog story, as received in tradition. According to Hausman's _The Mythology of Dogs: Canine Legend and Lore Through the Ages_ (pp. 199-200):
The Old English Sheepdog Club of America began in 1904, but the dog had a slow climb to popularity in this country. Fanciers, it appears, thought Bobtail was too big, too bumbly, too furry, and even too ephemeral. Although his virtues far outweigh his faults, he was labeled "excessive."
In time, though, things came around for him as people began to realize that the dog's personable manner was his most outstanding trait. Americans found out soon enough that Bobtail was neither a wanderer nor a sprawler. He was neither dull-witted nor rambunctious. Size notwithstanding, Bobtail began to appeal to the public fancy. He became a creature of cuteness, who was now the large target of small jokes.
If this had fallen on any other dog, it might have lessened his stature, but in Bobtail's case, it pumped it up, for Bobtail became the origin of the so-called "shaggy-dog stories."
The source of these dry tidbits of irony, which may or may not be termed stories, goes back to ancient Greece, where comedians enjoyed setting up a hero for a short fall. Indeed, the basis of all shaggy-dog stories is that they lead you to believe one thing, and then give you another.
During Prohibition in America, the same style of storytelling popped up again. This time around it featured "shags, shag-nasties, and ragshags." These were rough-shod characters--bums, alcoholics, and other down-at-heels folk. The stories generally dealt with the ironies of life under the influence; they always carried a punch line, and they too were called "shaggy dogs."
In the 1940s the stories turned into nonsense jokes, which played upon the mundane and offered a tongue-in-cheek reprisal, the punch at the end. Then, in the 1950s, the stories became tagged to a primarily tailless, but not entirely humorless, working dog of the English countryside.
It had gone this far, so now it went all the way. Into the comedy club, by way of the back door, came the good-natured, fun-loving, hard-working Old English sheepdog. The dog, growing quickly in popularity, inspired a lot of laughter. Being an amorphous- looking fellow helped and so did his bundly, bag-of-surprises personality. Of course, with both the dog and the stories, what you see is not what you get.
Shaggy-dog stories were an antidote to the Atomic Age, a world undergoing drastic psychic and physical change. It was a time where anything might happen and stories of outrageous dogs with mounds of rumpled fur were in keeping with the unpredictable tempo of the time. If humans were acting like dogs and dogs were acting like humans, what was the difference? No one knew which end was up anyway.
Here, then, are a couple of vintage shaggy-dog samplers:
Once there was an American businessman, who read in the lost-and-found section of the newspaper that a British gentleman had lost a shaggy dog and wanted it back. Touched by the Englishman's caring so much for a dog, and knowing that he was travelling to London, the American found a dog that fit the shaggy's description. Then when he went to England, he sought out the address printed in the lost-and-found ad. A butler met them with a cold, uncurious stare. However, seeing the shaggy for the first time, the butler looked horrified. "Sir," he said, "not _that_ shaggy!" and he slammed the door.
Once a businessman was traveling by train and he chanced to enter a car where an Englishman was playing chess with a shaggy dog. The businessman watched with great fascination as the dog quickly won the matched. Surprised, the businessman remarked that he was amazed at the dog's prowess. "Do you enter him in tournaments?" he asked. The Englishmen replied that the dog wasn't that good. "You see," he said snidely, "he lost the previous two matches."
As the fifties came to a close, shaggy-dog stories got shaggier and shaggier until there was no dog there at all. The stories turned tail and became bizarre twists of wit that featured animals of all kinds. Though they were still called shaggy dogs, the tales starred parrots, horses, cats, and almost any member of the animal kingdom.
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tinwhistler - 05 Jan 2007 03:52 GMT [snip]
> The businessman watched with great fascination as > the dog quickly won the matched. [snip]
The original didn't have an -ed on "match" -- I'm impressed, nonetheless, by the obvious transcription effort you applied in your posting, with only that one small typo as far as I could tell; see
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0312181396&id=EK7pC-LqZjYC&pg=RA1-PA200&lp g=RA1-PA200&ots=pSTVZY9Pj2&dq=shaggy+dog+Hausman&sig=tBhIMhrljiB_4rqrmRsd7v4s9dQ #PRA1-PA199,M1
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the account given in the book, but it's certainly a highly pertinent essay. Many thanks for finding it and, at such great length, transcribing it.
Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego
Robert Bannister - 05 Jan 2007 22:18 GMT > As the fifties came to a close, shaggy-dog stories got shaggier > and shaggier until there was no dog there at all. The stories > turned tail and became bizarre twists of wit that featured animals > of all kinds. Though they were still called shaggy dogs, the > tales starred parrots, horses, cats, and almost any member of the > animal kingdom. I certainly accept your explanation and liked the examples, but the shaggy dog stories I remember from the 50 did not feature animals and mostly ended with a line like "...and so nobody ever did find out".
In fact, the very first one I heard was about a man, a glass of water, an apple and a locked cell in a monastery. Once a year, the man would turn up on a cold, snowy night and ask for the above. In the morning, the water was drunk, the apple eaten, but the man had disappeared. Some half century later, the Abbot requested as his dying wish that man tell him how it was done. The Abbot then died with a strange smile on his face and...
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Donna Richoux - 07 Jan 2007 20:38 GMT > > > >> 1944 Bennett Cerf _Try and Stop Me_ 323 Shaggy-dog stories, as almost > > > >> everybody must know by this time, are the kind of tales in which [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > show him dogs: no. At long last they show him a very shaggy dog. "No, > my dog wasn't as shaggy as all that." All I can remember is the ending as my mother told it: "Good heavens, no, not THAT shaggy!"
Quite pointless.
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Mark Brader - 04 Jan 2007 11:24 GMT > "Shaggy dog story" (barely) before 1946 is pretty easy: > > This is a "shaggy dog" story, the tale of a "he" dog with a "she" > name that is being dischaged from the Army here tomorrow night > after serving for three years as the official camp mascot. [_NY > Times_, 12/31/1945 Oooh, definite points for style for antedating it by *one day* from the given year! Economy of search effort, or the simulation thereof, and all that!
> For all those who like Shaggy Dog stories, here is a Shaggy Skunk > tale that is going the rounds. [_LA Times_, 11/25/1945. Yes, you > guessed it: "In stinct".] Oh. Never mind, then.
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Mike Lyle - 03 Jan 2007 12:39 GMT > The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for > troublesome words and phrases. > > http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2121675.ece I think they might find "glamour model" in magazines such as _Amateur Photographer_ before 1981. But IIRC (and perhaps I don't), the '70s and maybe '60s photo magazines drew an explicit distinction between glamour and nude work; the current OED entry suggests they recognize only the euphemistic sense.
On "tosser" I'm not a verifiable source; but I do remember somebody at school slightingly referring to Tessa X as "Tosser X". That would have been before 1961; but I'm not sure he was doing anything more than playing with sexual vocab, as distinct from calling the poor girl (in her absence) a fool.
(I'm not quite convinced by OED's def of "w.nker": I feel sure that when it came in as a term of abuse it strongly suggested the target was _ineffectual_, not just contemptible. As it were, "Can't get a f.ck, so he has to w.nk". The 1978 and '81 examples are consistent with this opinion.)
I wonder if there are written examples of the fairly recent transformation of "tosspot" = "piss artist" into "tosspot" = "tosser/w.nker".
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Peter Duncanson - 03 Jan 2007 14:31 GMT >> The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for >> troublesome words and phrases. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >transformation of "tosspot" = "piss artist" into "tosspot" = >"tosser/w.nker". For the last few hours I've been wondering how familiar Americans are with "loo".
It was used by a leading character (Calleigh Duquesne, I think) in an episode of CSI: Miami[1]. She said "I'm going to the loo".
[1] Shown in the UK yesterday, January 2, 2007. (Season 4, Episode 25, the season finale, first shown in the US 22 May 2006)
 Signature Peter Duncanson, UK (in alt.usage.english)
Claude Weil - 03 Jan 2007 20:05 GMT >On 3 Jan 2007 04:39:29 -0800, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk>
>For the last few hours I've been wondering how familiar Americans >are with "loo". > >It was used by a leading character (Calleigh Duquesne, I think) in >an episode of CSI: Miami[1]. She said "I'm going to the loo". As I think I've written in this NG before, I wouldn't be surprised at all if we owed the term "loo" to the Americans. As you know, their pronunciation of the French word "lieu" is "loo", as in "lieutenant". "Lieu" means "place", and the loo can be called "lieu d'aisance" in French, i.e. literally "easing place".
On the other hand, "loo" is chiefly British, so that I might be mistaken.
CW
Archie Valparaiso - 03 Jan 2007 20:17 GMT >>On 3 Jan 2007 04:39:29 -0800, "Mike Lyle" <mike_lyle_uk@yahoo.co.uk> > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >On the other hand, "loo" is chiefly British, so that I might be >mistaken. We've done this a lot. My own feeling about the most likely origin is that it was originally a sort of lame joke, with "Waterloo" (after the battle and London railway station; the ABBA song would come only later) being used jocularly for "water closet" and then abbreviated to "the 'loo".
 Signature Archie Valparaiso
vorotyntsev@yahoo.com - 03 Jan 2007 23:36 GMT > >> The OED, via The Independent, invites us to come up with citations for > >> troublesome words and phrases. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Peter Duncanson, UK > (in alt.usage.english) We are familiar with the loo. Not as primitive over here as you think.
Robert Bannister - 03 Jan 2007 23:12 GMT > I wonder if there are written examples of the fairly recent > transformation of "tosspot" = "piss artist" into "tosspot" = > "tosser/w.nker". I'd have thought "tosser" was at least 70s, so not all that recent, and at that time, the thought of a connection with "tosspot" never occurred to me. I still don't believe it; it comes directly from the verb "toss" = w.nk.
 Signature Rob Bannister
Mike Lyle - 04 Jan 2007 20:00 GMT > > I wonder if there are written examples of the fairly recent > > transformation of "tosspot" = "piss artist" into "tosspot" = [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to me. I still don't believe it; it comes directly from the verb "toss" > = w.nk. I wasn't clear: sorry. I didn't mean "tosser" came from "tosspot", or v-v: I was referring to their recent convergence, now that people don't use "tosspot" to mean "piss artist". It's possible, though, that this recent use of "tosspot" was independently formed on the analogy of "sexpot", as I'd have thought the "drunk" meaning was pretty literary these days.
 Signature Mike.
mUs1Ka - 04 Jan 2007 21:10 GMT >> > I wonder if there are written examples of the fairly recent >> > transformation of "tosspot" = "piss artist" into "tosspot" = [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "sexpot", as I'd have thought the "drunk" meaning was pretty literary > these days. It was clear to me, but I am aware of the transformation. Rob, probably, wasn't.
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