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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007Bubbly
Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for describing a girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest recollection I have for hearing this term in use was about 10 years ago. How long has the word been current? Does anybody remember it being used before, say, 1995? Am I correct in assuming that the word is sexist, applying only to young women and children, and that it is not normally applied as a description for adult men? If so, what alternative word would you use to describe the same trait in an adult male? The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least multiplied) within the same time-span of the last ten years. For example: "His house is to die for". Twenty years ago, one would have been more likely to hear: "I would give my right arm for a house like his!". Comments? Richard Chambers Leeds UK. >Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for describing a >girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest recollection I have for >hearing this term in use was about 10 years ago. How long has the word been >current? Does anybody remember it being used before, say, 1995? Am I correct >in assuming that the word is sexist, Is a word that is normally used to describe a female a "sexist" word? "Sexist" words are discriminatory. I don't see anything discriminatory about calling a teenage girl "bubbly". How about "pert", "giggly", or "bouncy"? >applying only to young women and >children, and that it is not normally applied as a description for adult >men? I would hope not. > If so, what alternative word would you use to describe the same trait >in an adult male? Annoying.  SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >Is a word that is normally used to describe a female a "sexist" word? >"Sexist" words are discriminatory. I don't see anything >discriminatory about calling a teenage girl "bubbly". How about >"pert", "giggly", or "bouncy"? Or even "a gifted soubrette". SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk > Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for > describing a girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest > recollection I have for hearing this term in use was about 10 years > ago. How long has the word been current? Does anybody remember it > being used before, say, 1995? I'm fairly sure I read about Marilyn Monroe "the bubbly blonde" well before then. But OED's earliest for that meaning is: "1939 J. Steinbeck Grapes of Wrath xxii. 367 'Never seen you so bubbly,' Pa said. " You'll forgive me for not scouring my copy to see whether Pa was talking to Ma, Tom, Preacher Casey or who-all. >Am I correct in assuming that the word > is sexist, applying only to young women and children, and that it is > not normally applied as a description for adult men? If so, what > alternative word would you use to describe the same trait in an adult > male? I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be used of a man. > The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least > multiplied) within the same time-span of the last ten years. For > example: "His house is to die for". Twenty years ago, one would have > been more likely to hear: "I would give my right arm for a house > like his!". Comments? One of my bugbears. But OED has a comprehensive entry in the Additions: die, v. Add: [I.] [3.] d. to die for: (as if) worth dying for; superlatively good or highly desirable; extraordinary. Also to die, fabulous, astonishing. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.). 1898 E. N. Westcott David Harum xxiii. 209 Oh! and to 'top off' with, a mince-pie to die for. 1980 G. B. Trudeau (title) A tad overweight, but violet eyes to die for. 1982 A. Maupin Further Tales of City 96 The guy had this incredible loft+with neon tubing over the bed and high-tech everything..to die, right? 1986 Philadelphia Inquirer 11 July e3/2 The dark chocolate is to die for-it actually tastes dark. 1992 M. Riva Marlene Dietrich 645 The things he said about Olivier..to die! 1993 Face Apr. 73/2 Lacroix and Lagerfeld remained the to-die-for labels. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford John Dean filted: >> The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least >> multiplied) within the same time-span of the last ten years. For [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 1898 E. N. Westcott David Harum xxiii. 209 Oh! and to 'top off' with, a >mince-pie to die for. <et seq> I believe "<noun phrase> to die for" is in complementary distribution to "so <adjective> you could plotz"....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. >> Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for >> describing a girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You'll forgive me for not scouring my copy to see whether Pa was talking to > Ma, Tom, Preacher Casey or who-all. Ma. <q> Pa wandered back from the sanitary unit, and Ma looked critically up. Pa said, "Ya say Tom's got work?" "Yes, sir. Went out 'fore we was awake. Now look in that box an' get you some clean overhalls an' a shirt. An' Pa, I'm awful busy. You git in Ruthie an' Winfiel's ears. They's hot water. Will you do that? Scrounge aroun' in their ears good, an' their necks. Get' em red an' shinin'." "Never seen you so bubbly," Pa said. Ma cried, "This here's the time the fambly got to get decent. Comin' acrost they wasn't no chancet. But now we can. Th'ow your dirty overhalls in the tent an' I'll wash' em out." </q> http://tinyurl.com/y9aufj SignatureBlinky [...] > > The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least > > multiplied) within the same time-span of the last ten years. For [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > One of my bugbears. But OED has a comprehensive entry in the Additions: [...] > 1992 M. Riva Marlene > Dietrich 645 The things he said about Olivier..to die! [...] Y'know, I don't want to get a rep for unreasonable querying of the examples in This Wonderful Dictionary of Ours, which is produced by meticulous people who know what they're doing in a big way; but I wish I could see the whole passage that quotation comes from. In its contextless state it's entirely consistent with an opposite meaning: perhaps the things he said were enough to make a body die of embarrassment. I mention this because I have an unfortunately vague feeling that I've heard it used like that. SignatureMike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > embarrassment. I mention this because I have an unfortunately vague > feeling that I've heard it used like that. I think you need to read the extract John posted a bit more carefully -it contains two slightly different meanings and your selection may illustrate the second: Also to die, fabulous, astonishing. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.) SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > > [...] > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Also to die, fabulous, astonishing. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.) But once a dictionary has perpetrated "fabulous", I no longer trust myself -- or it -- to know what it means by "astonishing". The entry doesn't suggest a disapproving meaning, though. SignatureMike. > [...] >>> The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > embarrassment. I mention this because I have an unfortunately vague > feeling that I've heard it used like that. I feel your pain. I often find cites in OED which seem (and I'm sure "seem" is the operative word) to me to be at best ambiguous and at worst plain wrong. Obviously, we're meant to take it on trust that the editors have examined the work in question, believe the relevant passage to be a fair illustration of the meaning in question and have quoted just enough to get a fair idea of how the word or phrase is used. But sometimes they seem to me to miss the point and other times it's far from clear that the cite genuinely reflects the proffered meaning. However, this particular quote is from daughter Maria Riva's bio of the fabulous Marlene (Evenin each, moi name's Marlene). "Inside the Book" at Amazon we see: http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0345386450/ref=sib_dp_pt/002-8376135-4565618#rea der-link http://tinyurl.com/yzndk9 Searching for "to die" shows on p. 645 that she is indeed offering praise - in this case of Ken Tynan. The quote in question is preceded by "... he was wonderful! Brilliant!" and followed by "It's so wonderful to finally find someone intelligent to talk to." BTW, I don't know how common it is to find native German speakers splitting infinitives in English like this. Perhaps one of our bilingual posters could say. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford > [...] >>> The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > embarrassment. I mention this because I have an unfortunately vague > feeling that I've heard it used like that. Are you folks distinguishing "to die" from "to die for"? If not, I cite the Doonesbury collection titled _A Tad Overweight, but Violet Eyes to Die For_, published in 1981. The title comes from a line in one of the strips, published somewhat earlier, referring to Liz taylor. >> The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least >> multiplied) within the same time-span of the last ten years. For [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > superlatively good or highly desirable; extraordinary. Also to die, > fabulous, astonishing. colloq. (orig. and chiefly U.S.). > 1898 E. N. Westcott David Harum xxiii. 209 Oh! and to 'top off' > with, a mince-pie to die for. 1980 G. B. Trudeau (title) A tad [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > things he said about Olivier..to die! 1993 Face Apr. 73/2 Lacroix > and Lagerfeld remained the to-die-for labels. I suppose I must have heard it once or twice in predicate. But I had escaped the truly icky attributive use exemplified in the last quot. until I read Calvin Trillin's _Remembering Denny_ (1993), which quotes it repeatedly as having been in use in a high school in the 1950s: "the to-die-for Marilyn Montgomery". Signature--- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: I don't know what I'm doing here, but I know I'm doing it :|| ||: wrong. :|| The Dick Chambers entity posted thusly: >Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for describing a >girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest recollection I have for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >men? If so, what alternative word would you use to describe the same trait >in an adult male? Camp? Campy? > The Dick Chambers entity posted thusly: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Camp? Campy? Ebullient? > Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for describing a > girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest recollection I have for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > men? If so, what alternative word would you use to describe the same trait > in an adult male? I can remember first being described as having a bubbly personality by a school teacher when I was about 11, long before 1995. I effervesce less than I used to these days, though, and I haven't heard the term in use for quite a while. I think you're right about its general application to women rather than men. OED has: Of a person: vivacious, full of high spirits. 1939 J. STEINBECK Grapes of Wrath xxii. 367 ‘Never seen you so bubbly,’ Pa said. 1965 G. MCINNES Road to Gundagai xii. 202 They [sc. lady helps]..did vary from bubbly to bleak, but all shared a paralysing gentility. 1982 BARR & YORK Official Sloane Ranger Handbk. 80/2 Tudors are bubbly girls, man-chasers, ‘always talking about boys’ according to other schools. > The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least multiplied) > within the same time-span of the last ten years. For example: "His house is > to die for". Twenty years ago, one would have been more likely to hear: "I > would give my right arm for a house like his!". Comments? I'd agree with that observation. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for >> describing a girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I can remember first being described as having a bubbly personality > by a school teacher when I was about 11, long before 1995. Not that long before, Shirley? >I > effervesce less than I used to these days, though, and I haven't > heard the term in use for quite a while. I think you're right about > its general application to women rather than men. You may effervesce less but you LFS with success; I confess I'm impressed. SignatureJohn Dean Oxford >>>Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for >>>describing a girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Not that long before, Shirley? How long is long, then? I think you're just being charming. Not that I'm complaining. I had stopped reading this thread for fear of having labelled myself as stout and stupid... >>I >>effervesce less than I used to these days, though, and I haven't >>heard the term in use for quite a while. I think you're right about >>its general application to women rather than men. > > You may effervesce less but you LFS with success; I confess I'm impressed. <blush> What an address! Such finesse you possess! SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) [...] > > I can remember first being described as having a bubbly personality > > by a school teacher when I was about 11, long before 1995. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > You may effervesce less but you LFS with success; I confess I'm impressed. OK, team. Thank you for coming here today at such short notice: I promise to keep it short and sweet. I don't think I need to remind anybody here that this is a strictly confidential briefing? Good. Now for the meat. The words, ladies and gentlemen, are "ellefesce", "ellefescence", and "ellefescent". Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to use these words often enough and innocently-seemingly-enough in these pages and elsewhere to get them into OED. SignatureMike. > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > innocently-seemingly-enough in these pages and elsewhere to get them > into OED. Deeply flattered, but slightly anxious about the alarming similarity in pronunciation to a large pachyderm... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) LFS filted: >>>You may effervesce less but you LFS with success; I confess I'm impressed. >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Deeply flattered, but slightly anxious about the alarming similarity in >pronunciation to a large pachyderm... Take care you don't estiesce in the process....r Signature"Keep your eye on the Bishop. I want to know when he makes his move", said the Inspector, obliquely. > LFS filted: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Take care you don't estiesce in the process....r My name is *not* Nellie... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >> [...] >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Deeply flattered, but slightly anxious about the alarming > similarity in pronunciation to a large pachyderm... But surely not stressed the same? I'd put the emphasis on 'fesce' in each case. Unless you would use duress to supress the stress on 'fesce', I guess. Signaturerzed >>>[...] >>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > in each case. Unless you would use duress to supress the stress on > 'fesce', I guess. Already we're disputing the pronunciation of non-existent words? Only in aue... SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) > [...] >>> I can remember first being described as having a bubbly personality [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > innocently-seemingly-enough in these pages and elsewhere to get them > into OED. I'm fairly sure that's what I heard a group of French Canadians using some years ago in their version of Alouette: Ellefesce! (ellefesce!) Ellefesce! (ellefesce!) Ooooh .... SignatureJohn Dean Oxford Dick Chambers: > The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least multiplied) > within the same time-span of the last ten years. ... A bit longer, I think; the phrase was used as a movie title in 1995. SignatureMark Brader | "To judge by this film, the life of a cold war spy consists Toronto | of sitting for endless hours in soundproof rooms with peo- msb@vex.net | ple you do not particularly like, waiting for something to | happen. Sort of like being a movie critic." --Roger Ebert > Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for describing a > girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest recollection I have for > hearing this term in use was about 10 years ago. How long has the word > been current? Does anybody remember it being used before, say, 1995? I certainly heard it used in the 80s. > Am I correct in assuming that the word is sexist, applying only to young > women and children, and that it is not normally applied as a description > for adult men? Just because a word's applied to women only doesn't make it sexist. I wouldn't call it sexist, and it can be a complement or a criticism depending on the context. > If so, what alternative word would you use to describe the same trait in > an adult male? Hyper? > The expression "to die for" seems to have arisen (or at least multiplied) > within the same time-span of the last ten years. For example: "His house > is to die for". I clearly remember my bartending instructor saying "Mekong Whisky's to die for" back in 1992, and I understood her perfectly then, implying that I had heard this phrase before then. > Recently, a fashion (or, by now, a cliché) has developed for describing a > girl or young woman as "bubbly". The earliest recollection I have for [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Richard Chambers Leeds UK. To me, 'bubbly' implies a slightly overweight and/or slightly unintelligent female. I don't imagine either Kate Moss or Marie Curie as being 'bubbly'. I had not heard 'to die for', before the film of the same name. Stupot >To me, 'bubbly' implies a slightly overweight and/or slightly >unintelligent female. I don't imagine either Kate Moss or Marie Curie as >being 'bubbly'. I understand the word quite differently. A "bubbly" girl is irrepressibly buoyant and effervescent. She's bouncy and happy almost - but not quite - to the point of being irritating. Whatever her physical and mental points are, it is her personality that is noticed. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL >> To me, 'bubbly' implies a slightly overweight and/or slightly >> unintelligent female. I don't imagine either Kate Moss or Marie Curie as [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Whatever her physical and mental points are, it is her personality > that is noticed. I agree it is her personality that is being noticed, however it is in <pointed> contrast to her other attributes. Stupot >>> To me, 'bubbly' implies a slightly overweight and/or slightly >>> unintelligent female. I don't imagine either Kate Moss or Marie Curie as [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >I agree it is her personality that is being noticed, however it is in ><pointed> contrast to her other attributes. That's how *you* see the application of the word, but I don't think that's how most people do. I certainly don't. The high school class valedictorian and drop-dead gorgeous Prom Queen can be "bubbly". It's a personality thing...always smiling, always up-beat, always enthusiastic. An overweight air-head can also be bubbly, though. SignatureTony Cooper Orlando, FL > To me, 'bubbly' implies a slightly overweight and/or slightly > unintelligent female. I think that is strange. I could maybe understand the "slightly unintelligent", under some circumstances, but where the "slightly overweight" comes from has me baffled. To me, "bubbly" means bright, very talkative, laughing a lot, possibly giggly, uses hand gestures and body language a great deal. A young Goldie Hawn (BTW, I never realised that was her real name before). SignatureRob Bannister >> To me, 'bubbly' implies a slightly overweight and/or slightly >> unintelligent female. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and body language a great deal. A young Goldie Hawn (BTW, I never > realised that was her real name before). It still is. (Yeah, yeah, I know ...) SignatureSkitt Jes' fine >> and body language a great deal. A young Goldie Hawn (BTW, I never >> realised that was her real name before). > > It still is. (Yeah, yeah, I know ...) OMG! As the young ones say. Who'd have guessed! SignatureRob Bannister |
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