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Discussion Groups / English Usage / January 2007pronunciation of -shire
Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an Englishman living in Sardinia. Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in relaxed speech rhymes with 'beer', as if it were "Shropsheer", but I'm aware that the dictionary recommends a schwa as the vowel, like "Shropsher". Is my pronunciation of this suffix just confined to London speech or is it more widespread, by which token it should be cited as an alternative form in the dictionary? How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, Hampsheer or Hampsher? Happy New Year, Chris Pain [snip] > Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most > common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > dictionary? How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, > Hampsheer or Hampsher? [snip] Welcome to this newsgroup, Mr. ...er.... I think you're welcome notwithstanding such an ominous moniker. :) It's New Hampsher for most, I submit. But just taking the word "shire," most Americans would probably say "shyer" -- but then, most UKers might also. Looking at unfamiliar UK locale names, many or most USers would probably forget how they refer to NH, and would put a "shyer" pronunciation on, say, "Shropshire." All IMHO. Aloha ~~~ Ozzie Maland ~~~ San Diego > [snip] >> Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > USers would probably forget how they refer to NH, and would put a > "shyer" pronunciation on, say, "Shropshire." All IMHO. Agreed. Note also that the R at the end of Hampsher is pronounced by most Americans -- though not by ones from New Hampshire ("Noo Hamshah") and most of the territory of the adjacent New England states (Maine, Vermont, eastern Massachussets).  SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. >Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most >common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >dictionary? How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, >Hampsheer or Hampsher? Schwa for me, though I've heard the variants that rhyme with "sheer" and "higher" as well. SignatureSteve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk The Chris Pain entity posted thusly: >Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an >Englishman living in Sardinia. I spent 6 great weeks at the Decimmomanu (spelling?) Air Base in the mid sixties. Loved Cagliari and the southern beaches. >Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most >common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >dictionary? How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, >Hampsheer or Hampsher? I say with a schwa. I'm in western Canada. >Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most >common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, >Hampsheer or Hampsher? New Hampshire is [nu:'ham SR] or [nu:'hamp SR] in my (rhotic) dialect. I think the second form is somewhat more common for Hampshire County, Mass. However, I've heard both ['bRk SR] and ['bRk,SiR] for Berkshire County and the Berkshires. All but three of our counties are named after English places, but those are the only two with the "-shire" suffix. The others are Hampden ['h&m dn], Worcester ['wUs tR], Middlesex, Essex, Suffolk ['s@f @k], Norfolk ['nOr f@k], Bristol ['brIs tl], Plymouth ['plIm @T], and Barnstable ['bArn st@bl]. Note in particular that the English "Barnstaple" has gained a voice, and that the U.S. pronunciation of "Suffolk" is well forward of (my mental model[1] of) the English prononunciation. -GAWollman [1] My mental tape-recorder has a snippet of Pam Ayres, so it may have led me astray. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness > my mental model[1] of) the English > prononunciation. > [1] My mental tape-recorder has a snippet of Pam Ayres, so it may have > led me astray. Pam Ayres is well known in the UK for having a pronounced rural Berkshire (UK) accent, as the informative Wikipedia page on "English English" notes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_English > Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most > common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in > relaxed speech rhymes with 'beer', as if it were "Shropsheer", but I'm aware > that the dictionary recommends a schwa as the vowel, like "Shropsher". My own feeling is that accents may vary considerably - rural West Country pronunciation of "Gloucestershire" may sound like "Glostershurr", Southern RP / BBC accent may have it as "Glostersheer" whereas the Queen and her ilk say "Glostersher". In fact saying the -shire suffix as 'sher' marks a person out quite strongly as being 'posh'. >> Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most >> common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >-shire suffix as 'sher' marks a person out quite strongly as being >'posh'. Or not. It's the standard pronunciation Oop North -- Lankysha, Yahksha and so on. SignatureArchie Valparaiso > > Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most > > common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > -shire suffix as 'sher' marks a person out quite strongly as being > 'posh'. I live in Gloucestershire, and was born in neigbouring Worcestershire, and for both counties it's 'sher'. I suppose I'm quite posh - at least my accent is occasionally remarked upon as being so. Product of a Public School (AmE "Private School") education, I suppose. However, those denizens of this county who speak with an authentic local accent pronounce it "Glarsterhsher" or even, at The Shed, "Glaaaarrsster" (the 'sher' being de trop). Will. > I live in Gloucestershire, and was born in neigbouring Worcestershire, > and for both counties it's 'sher'. I suppose I'm quite posh - at least [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pronounce it "Glarsterhsher" or even, at The Shed, "Glaaaarrsster" (the > 'sher' being de trop). The "ar" is interesting. I pronounce "Gloucester" as /glAstR/, thus not unlike non-rhotic BrE "glarster" with rhoticized second syllable. The first referrent for me is the fishing village in Massachusetts, and I assume that Bwahstonians pronounce it with their merged cot/caught vowel and not with their distinct non-rhotic "cart" vowel (thus something like "Glwahstah"). Possibly I (and my parents) interpreted that pronunciation as "Glahstah". Thus I do not rhyme "Gloucester" with "Foster", which has the "caught" vowel (part of the dog class). I presume that the "ar" of the local Gloucestershirian pronunciation reflects an AmE-style merger of "cot" and "cart" vowels? SignatureSalvatore Volatile >first referrent for me is the fishing village in Massachusetts, and I >assume that Bwahstonians pronounce it with their merged cot/caught vowel >and not with their distinct non-rhotic "cart" vowel (thus something like >"Glwahstah"). Bostononians do not speak as you imagine them to. Have you ever been to Boston, or are you just making it up? There is no "w" sound, not now, never has been. >Possibly I (and my parents) interpreted that pronunciation >as "Glahstah". Thus I do not rhyme "Gloucester" with "Foster", which has >the "caught" vowel (part of the dog class). There is a Glocester (no "u") in Rhode Island, which has a union school district with the neighboring town of Foster. In the Rhode Island variant of Eastern New England Non-Rhotic, the two definitely do rhyme, a point of fame for the late Walter L. "Salty" Brine, Jr., the AM-drive host (and school-closing announcer) of WPRO (630 Providence) for half a century. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>first referrent for me is the fishing village in Massachusetts, and I >>assume that Bwahstonians pronounce it with their merged cot/caught vowel [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > to Boston, or are you just making it up? There is no "w" sound, not > now, never has been. The merged cot/caught vowel of Eastern Massachusetts, which appears to be something like [A.@] much of the time, sounds to many of us (at least those of us who are CINC) like "wah". So "Boston" sounds like "Bwahston". What sounds like 'w', no doubt undetectable to Bwahstonians themselves (though I'm surprised that Western Massahusettsians wouldn't be aware of it), is actually the rounding of the [A.] component of the diphthong, and I think the "ah" reflects the opener vowel than a CINC speaker might himself use, plus the schwa glide thingie. (The Boston schwa itself always seemed to me rather ah-like, compared to New York schwas.) I don't contend that Bwahstonians actually say [bwAst@n], but that their [bA.@st@n] sounds to many non-Bostonians like "Bwahston". This "wah" diphthong is probably the most distinctive feature of Eastern Massachusetts speech, especially now that non-rhoticism is disappearing. I have spent a good deal of time in the Bwahston area during my life, enough to be quite familiar with the local accent(s). SignatureSalvatore Volatile >The merged cot/caught vowel of Eastern Massachusetts, which appears to be >something like [A.@] much of the time, sounds to many of us (at least >those of us who are CINC) like "wah". So "Boston" sounds like "Bwahston". You are definitely confused, and quite possibly projecting. "Boston" and "Gloucester" *don't have* that vowel. The merged vowel is the "o" [O.@] in "tonic" and "Dorchester". The vowel in "Boston" is pronounced by the locals as [a] like in "half" [haf]. >What sounds like 'w', no doubt undetectable to Bwahstonians themselves >(though I'm surprised that Western Massahusettsians wouldn't be aware of >it) I grew up in Vermont. I do not speak ENENR, so I say ['bOs tn], ['glOs tR], ['tAn Ic], ['dOr ,tSES tR], and [h&f]. What I hear native Bostonians say does not sound anything remotely like a "wah". -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>The merged cot/caught vowel of Eastern Massachusetts, which appears to be >>something like [A.@] much of the time, sounds to many of us (at least [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and "Gloucester" *don't have* that vowel. The merged vowel is the "o" > [O.@] in "tonic" and "Dorchester". Right so far: those are said like "twonnic" and "Dwahchestah". People from Dorchester /dA.@tSEst@/ are called "Dots" /dA.@ts/. > The vowel in "Boston" is > pronounced by the locals as [a] like in "half" [haf]. In other words, you're saying that Bostonians say "Boston" as though they thought it were (their) "Barston"? Absolutely not, though that's often how *non*-Bostonians erroneously imitate a Boston accent (one often hears such mimics say "Boston" as "Baaston"). (Cf. how Sparky said he couldn't distinguish Bostonian "park" from Bostonian "pack".) Bostonians use different vowels in "half" /a/ and in "Boston" /A./. (I would guess that the use of /a/ in "half" is now dying out in BosE.) SignatureSalvatore Volatile [...] > (Cf. how Sparky said he couldn't > distinguish Bostonian "park" from Bostonian "pack".) If I said I "couldn't", I didn't mean it. I'm sure I could have distinguished them if I had heard them spoken together. But it is true that during my time at Boston's Gallups Island (in 1942), after being told, presumably by a speaker of traditional Bostonian, to see a man named Parker, I went in search of a Mr Packer. >> You are definitely confused, and quite possibly projecting. "Boston" >> and "Gloucester" *don't have* that vowel. The merged vowel is the "o" >> [O.@] in "tonic" and "Dorchester". > >Right so far: those are said like "twonnic" and "Dwahchestah". People >from Dorchester /dA.@tSEst@/ are called "Dots" /dA.@ts/. No, no, a thousand times no! It's "tawnic", not "twonic". It's not "dwah-chestah", it's "daw-chestah". >> The vowel in "Boston" is >> pronounced by the locals as [a] like in "half" [haf]. > >In other words, you're saying that Bostonians say "Boston" as though they >thought it were (their) "Barston"? No, that's a different vowel. >Bostonians use different vowels in "half" /a/ and in "Boston" /A./. (I >would guess that the use of /a/ in "half" is now dying out in BosE.) I work, every day,[1] with people who have lived their entire lives in Southie, Dorchester, Cambridge, and Somerville. I would suggest you stop guessing about how people you don't know speak and pay attention. -GAWollman [1] Except for the past few weeks when I've been out of the office with a broken knee. SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>> You are definitely confused, and quite possibly projecting. "Boston" >>> and "Gloucester" *don't have* that vowel. The merged vowel is the "o" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, no, a thousand times no! It's "tawnic", not "twonic". It's not > "dwah-chestah", it's "daw-chestah". Both are approximations of what we hear from speakers of an accent that is not our own. Perhaps your speech influences (e.g., Vermont) lead you to choose "aw" as the best way of representing the EastMass cot/caught. Erk or Sparky might do the same, for individual reasons. But for others of us, "wah" gets at what we hear. It's the initial rounding followed by a surprising release towards the center. "Aw-ah", if you can imagine that as a diphthong, is another way I might try to represent it. "Wah" is misleading, of course -- the rounding by the Bostonian is briefer than it would be if "wah" were actually being said, for example. But, as a comical exaggeration, "wah" communicates something with accuracy. >>Bostonians use different vowels in "half" /a/ and in "Boston" /A./. (I >>would guess that the use of /a/ in "half" is now dying out in BosE.) > > I work, every day,[1] with people who have lived their entire lives in > Southie, Dorchester, Cambridge, and Somerville. I would suggest you > stop guessing about how people you don't know speak and pay attention. Ask them to make a recording of "half" and "Boston" and then provide us with the recording so we can see whether the vowels are, indeed, the same. (Maybe better, see whether they rhyme "half" and "off".) Remember, in your own dialect, you (like the vast majority of Americans) don't distinguish between the vowels of "bother" and "father", unlike your co-workers. So your difficulty in hearing that these are actually distinct vowels is understandable. Again, it's like Sparky thinking Mr. Parker was Mr. Packer back on Gallups Island (although that involves a different pair, /a/ and /&/ rather than /A./ and /a/). SignatureSalvatore Volatile > I don't contend that Bwahstonians actually say [bwAst@n], but that their > [bA.@st@n] sounds to many non-Bostonians like "Bwahston". Would that first syllable be similar to "boa"? SignatureRob Bannister >> I don't contend that Bwahstonians actually say [bwAst@n], but that their >> [bA.@st@n] sounds to many non-Bostonians like "Bwahston". > > Would that first syllable be similar to "boa"? No. It's more like "baw-ah". SignatureSalvatore Volatile > My own feeling is that accents may vary considerably - rural West > Country pronunciation of "Gloucestershire" may sound like > "Glostershurr", Southern RP / BBC accent may have it as "Glostersheer" > whereas the Queen and her ilk say "Glostersher". In fact saying the > -shire suffix as 'sher' marks a person out quite strongly as being > 'posh'. Ooh, no, BBC advice has always been -sh@ although few contributors these days take any notice. -shee@ (and close variants) seem to me to suggest some degree of Estuaricity. It's what I used until exposed to that BBC advice. There are (or used to be) different BBC rules for Scottish -shire pronunciation, and I once had them explained to me by a very senior Scottish news person, though I only have partial recall of that conversation now ... some were -sh@(r), many were -sheye@(r) while others (possibly eg Argyllshire) were pure Sassenach invention and should never pass a broadcaster's lips. And anyone uttering Fifeshire should be taken out and shot. I do remember his final word that, if in doubt, use -sh@ ..."no-one will mind; after all your only English." It is interesting that, although superseded as administrative districts by the various regions in the early- 1970s, Scots never ceased to use the old counties (and some even older names) as geographical identifiers, and I was happy to follow suit. The latest local government reorganisation has seen many of them return as names of admin units. Philip Eden [...] > It is interesting that, although superseded > as administrative districts by the various regions in the early- > 1970s, Scots never ceased to use the old counties (and some > even older names) as geographical identifiers, and I was > happy to follow suit. The latest local government reorganisation > has seen many of them return as names of admin units. Any inside tip on who's going to get the top job in the Kingdom of Fife? SignatureMike. "Philip Eden" <philipATweatherHYPHENukDOTcom> wrote : . I do remember his final word that, if in > doubt, use -sh@ ..."no-one will mind; after all your only > English." Eeeek! You're. pe > Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an > Englishman living in Sardinia. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dictionary? How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, > Hampsheer or Hampsher? As a suffix I've never pronounced with other than a schwa. (As a word by itself I pronounce it like "shyer", as I think everyone does.) For me that goes for American names like New Hampshire as well, as that's how I've heard Americans pronounce them (with an r as well, if they are rhotic), though they tend to use a suffix like "shyer" for the names of English counties. My impression is that the "sheer" pronunciation is recent -- I don't remember ever hearing it as a child, but I have heard it quite often in the past 30 years or so. As you're an Englishmen living in Italy (I'm an Englishman living in France; we have quite a lot of ex-patriates in this news group) let me ask you a related question. On Italian radio and television, how do they pronounce "Sir" before a person's name, like Sir Winston Churchill? For me, and I think for most people in the UK, "Sir" is pronounced like an unstressed prefix as if it were the first syllable of the name. On French television, however, they always put heavy stress on the "Sir", more than on the name that follows. (They also says things like "Sir Churchill", but that's a different issue.) athel > > Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an > > Englishman living in Sardinia. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > recent -- I don't remember ever hearing it as a child, but I have heard > it quite often in the past 30 years or so. Many Scots rhyme "shire" with "higher", even as a termination. I think it's standard for Scottish counties. Do I understand Garrett rightly on "Barnstaple"? If he's saying English people don't say " 'Barn-st@p@l", I don't think I've ever heard it with anything but a schwa. > As you're an Englishmen living in Italy (I'm an Englishman living in > France; we have quite a lot of ex-patriates in this news group) let me [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > stress on the "Sir", more than on the name that follows. (They also > says things like "Sir Churchill", but that's a different issue.) Yes, strange. One of Radio 4's culturistas, Mark Lawson, always stresses the "Sir" in these cases: this is so unusual that it always makes me think he's being mocking -- as I would be if I were to stress any title in this way. SignatureMike. > > > Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an > > > Englishman living in Sardinia. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > makes me think he's being mocking -- as I would be if I were to stress > any title in this way. Indeed. I might well stress the "Sir" if I wanted to be mocking. I usually refer to our ex-F?hrer as "Mrs Thatcher", but if I were to say "Lady Thatcher" I would probably put heavy stress on the first word. (Thinking about the present incumbent, however, I must say I sometimes feel nostalgic.) I don't think that French TV people are being mocking when they stress the "Sir", however; I think they think that's the way to say it. a. >> > Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an >> > Englishman living in Sardinia. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >makes me think he's being mocking -- as I would be if I were to stress >any title in this way. Don't you stress "Lord" or "Alderman" or "Doctor" or pretty much any title a lot more than Sir? I know I do, sah. suh-RISE-uk-NEW-ton suh-RAL-icks FER-gu-son but LORD KINN-ock of BED-wel-ty DOCK-tuh DAY-vi DOWEN (Hmm. That last one has a certain Mairzy Dotes quality to it.) SignatureArchie Valparaiso > LORD KINN-ock of BED-wel-ty > DOCK-tuh DAY-vi DOWEN > > (Hmm. That last one has a certain Mairzy Dotes quality to it.) Just as well he's now lor-DOH-win then, isn't it? (LOR-DOH-win too.) Going back to 'shire': I say sher, sheh, shih, shuh, sheer, and shy-er, depending on context and accent. It could be argued that 'sh' is 'zh' in some examples, too, but that's going a bit far. Trying to pin down when I say what, it appears to be patternless: Devon-shuh for the Duke (just Devon for the county). Oxford-sher (with r). Horses are 'shy-ers'. Wilt-shuh. Lincoln-sheer (including sausages). Berk-sheh. Hertford-sher. Hamp-shih. The r is pronounced in 'sher' but not in 'sheer' unless I'm tired; the schwa-like ending in sheh/shuh/shih does have that different vowel sound. Jac [ ... ] > Trying to pin down when I say what, it appears to be patternless: > Devon-shuh for the Duke (just Devon for the county). Quite right too. People from Devon never call it Devonshire. The Duke has no connection with the county. His seat is in Derbyshire and I have read a plausible theory that his title derives originally from a clerical error, when someone read "Derbyshire" as "Devonshire". Weirder things have happened. athel > [ ... ] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > clerical error, when someone read "Derbyshire" as "Devonshire". Weirder > things have happened. This has been discussed before, a couple of years ago; I had heard the same story. I am from Derbyshire, and the story is widely believed there. Don Aitken posted, in November 2004: "That story has been around almost as long as the peerage, but there doesn't seem to be any truth in it. Derbyshire would probably have been regarded as unavailable, because there was already an Earldom of Derby, although that title comes from the West Derby hundred of Lancashire, not the county. Nobody knows why the first earl chose "Devon", but he did. The title cost him £10,000, which was a lot of money in 1618. " Fran > > [ ... ] > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > "Devon", but he did. The title cost him £10,000, which was a lot of > money in 1618. " I've no difficulty believing that the story was a myth, but the reason given for choosing "Devonshire" doesn't make sense, because there was also already an Earl of Devon in 1618: Sir William Courtenay, 3rd Earl, died in 1630. a. [...] > >Yes, strange. One of Radio 4's culturistas, Mark Lawson, always > >stresses the "Sir" in these cases: this is so unusual that it always [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > (Hmm. That last one has a certain Mairzy Dotes quality to it.) Yes, to all of the above. Mock-wise, if I were talking about Jeremy Archer, as a peer, I'd put a stronger stress than usual on the "Lord". (Isn't it time that amusing Derek Clarkson got a gong?) SignatureMike. > Yes, strange. One of Radio 4's culturistas, Mark Lawson, always > stresses the "Sir" in these cases: this is so unusual that it always > makes me think he's being mocking -- as I would be if I were to stress > any title in this way. But ML talks funny anyway, don't you think? Very odd stresses in his sentences. SignatureLaura (emulate St. George for email) >Do I understand Garrett rightly on "Barnstaple"? If he's saying English >people don't say " 'Barn-st@p@l", I don't think I've ever heard it with >anything but a schwa. Evidently not. I said that the English placename "Barnstaple" became "Barnstable" (so spelled and pronounced) upon crossing the Atlantic. -GAWollman SignatureGarrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are wollman@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness >>Do I understand Garrett rightly on "Barnstaple"? If he's saying English >>people don't say " 'Barn-st@p@l", I don't think I've ever heard it with >>anything but a schwa. > > Evidently not. I said that the English placename "Barnstaple" became > "Barnstable" (so spelled and pronounced) upon crossing the Atlantic. Wait, are you saying that in Massachusetts people pronounce "Barnstable" as "Barn Stable", and not, as I've always assumed, as "BARNst'b'l"? SignatureSalvatore Volatile On 05 Jan 2007, Salvatore Volatile wrote >> In article >> <1167996592.168898.258020@s34g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, Mike [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > "Barnstable" as "Barn Stable", and not, as I've always assumed, > as "BARNst'b'l"? I assumed Garrett was referring to the replacement of "p" with "b", rather than syllabic stress. (Did you miss the spelling change?) SignatureCheers, Harvey Canadian and British English, indiscriminately mixed For e-mail, change harvey.news to harvey.van > On 05 Jan 2007, Salvatore Volatile wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I assumed Garrett was referring to the replacement of "p" with "b", > rather than syllabic stress. (Did you miss the spelling change?) I saw the "b", but my mind was focussed on the vowels. Apologies, Garrett. SignatureMike. > > On 05 Jan 2007, Salvatore Volatile wrote > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I saw the "b", but my mind was focussed on the vowels. Apologies, > Garrett. And, withal, I've heard Devonians pronounce it with a "b": I don't know if that's a regular variant or just a common mistake. Oxford Placenames says it means "Pillar of the Battle-axe", which is dashing. SignatureMike. > And, withal, I've heard Devonians pronounce it with a "b": I don't know > if that's a regular variant or just a common mistake. Oxford Placenames > says it means "Pillar of the Battle-axe", which is dashing. When I was a child, we had a couple of holidays with a native-Devon couple who lived in Barnstaple. They both pronounced it with a b. SignatureRob Bannister >> Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an >> Englishman living in Sardinia. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >recent -- I don't remember ever hearing it as a child, but I have heard >it quite often in the past 30 years or so. I blame that Richie Benaud. SignatureArchie Valparaiso >> Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an >> Englishman living in Sardinia. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > athel In Italy it's ['ser], stressed, with an Italian open e and with a trilled r. A few years back, when a certain Prof. Serpillo was head of English at Sassari University, a lot of people, on hearing his name, thought he was an English knight (Sir Pillo). In fact Italian TV announcers get most English words and names wrong: Tom's surname is pronounced [kruiz] for example - is it the same in France? The two most irritating things are: fistly, how they say ['regbi], [cleb] and ['kerri] for rugby, club and curry, and secondly, how it seems like someone years ago in the diction dept of Italian state television decreed that all u's in English words should be pronounced like an Italian a, which is fair enough for words like 'bus' and 'cup', since there isn't a lot of difference between a London [V] and an Italian [a], but has also produced such monstrocities as [di'parpl], Richard ['barton] and Tina ['tarner]. There's no difference between [bart] Lancaster and [bart] Simpson. In case this all sounds rather patronising and superior on my part, let me says the opposite is also true: that is, the English do just as good a job of mangling any Italian words they come up against, pronouncing the i in words like Gianni, for example. Chris [...] > In case this all sounds rather patronising and superior on my part, let me > says the opposite is also true: that is, the English do just as good a job > of mangling any Italian words they come up against, pronouncing the i in > words like Gianni, for example. Aaarggh! One of my pettest Radio 3 hates -- and if R3 don't know better, who should? You then get Scots saying "Jeevanni". It's worse than Pictures From an Exhibition. SignatureMike. > [...] >> In case this all sounds rather patronising and superior on my part, let [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > better, who should? You then get Scots saying "Jeevanni". It's worse > than Pictures From an Exhibition. My favourite ... the Great Gate Into Kiev. Sounds like a Midland Mainline train (ref one or two age-old threads). Philip Eden >> [...] >>> In case this all sounds rather patronising and superior on my part, let [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> better, who should? You then get Scots saying "Jeevanni". It's worse >> than Pictures From an Exhibition. Probably due to being overly familiar with the French title, and overliteral in translating it to English. But it could be worse: "Pictures of an Exhibition" (which fits either the French or the German title). The Russian lends itself to being mistranslated as "Pictures with exhibition". > My favourite ... the Great Gate Into Kiev. That (modulo the preposition) was the movement that made the greatest impression on me when I was a lad, and Ravel's orchestration was pretty nearly exactly half as old as it is now -- as I realized as I was studying the score as recently as yesterday! > Sounds like a > Midland Mainline train (ref one or two age-old threads). That would be the sound of the saxophone improvising, since he or she is the only instrumentalist who doesn't have a part in the last movement of the Ravel orchestration. (Oddly enough, there's a blank staff for the alto sax in the score at the beginning of the previous movement [Baba-Yaga's chicken-legged hut], but no actual part for it. The sax only plays in the "Old Castle" movement -- and it does generally have to have a separate player, as all the woodwinds are needed for their own parts in that movement except second oboe, piccolo/3d flute, and contrabassoon. Now serious oboists, in my experience, generally don't double on sax after they get out high school and no longer have to play in marching band, and while many sax players double on flute pretty acceptably in jazz and studio and Broadway contexts, the number of saxophonists who play piccolo well enough to occupy the piccolo specialist's chair in a symphony orchestra -- or vice versa -- is very small indeed. The contrabassoonist presumably has enough to carry to the gig already and is in any event not much more likely to be a sax doubler than the piccolo player.) I happen to be up on these various useless details of the Moussorsky/Ravel "Pictures" at the moment because I had to conduct a rehearsal of it this morning, on little more than 48 hours notice. Next week I get to go back to my customary place as principal viola of the same community orchestra, and I shall be very disappointed indeed if my standpartner fails to invoke the relevant viola joke ("Say, where were you last week?"). SignatureRoland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food. NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it. > >> [...] > >>> In case this all sounds rather patronising and superior on my part, let [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Exhibition" (which fits either the French or the German title). The > Russian lends itself to being mistranslated as "Pictures with exhibition". [...] No, the "from" is fine by me: the pet hate bit is that they play it so often. I don't think I've heard any version this week, though, so perhaps they've got round to comparing play-lists at last. SignatureMike. > In case this all sounds rather patronising and superior on my part, let me > says the opposite is also true: that is, the English do just as good a job > of mangling any Italian words they come up against, pronouncing the i in > words like Gianni, for example. Ho, yes. Gee-arny on EastEnders was a particularly bad example of this. (There was a horribly amusing episode where the English-but-married-to-an-Italian character Rosa told off a hapless restaurant employee for saying "ciabatta" *correctly*, and hyper-corrected it to chee-ah-bah-tah. Argh!) I can't think about Italians mangling English without hearing my grandmother saying "Yon-gah lye-dee" in my head. It's a bit like STS (stuck tune syndrome). Jac > ask you a related question. On Italian radio and television, how do > they pronounce "Sir" before a person's name, like Sir Winston > Churchill? I'd expect something approaching "Swinston". SignatureRob Bannister > Anyway, what I wanted to ask is quite simple. What do you think is the most > common pronunciation of the suffix -shire, as in Shropshire? My version in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > dictionary? How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, > Hampsheer or Hampsher? In AmE, it is always "New Hampsher" (though of course some speakers, including many in New Hampshire itself, pronounce that non-rhotically). "-shire" would be thus pronounced in other -shire names (for example, Worcestershire sauce is /wUst@SR sOs/ in my dialect, and that's probably how most Americans would say it). The more unfamiliar the name is, the more likely, I think, that /SaIR/ (rhyming with "fire") would be used. One notable exception is "The Berkshires", the name for a region of western Massachusetts overrun with tourists during the summer and fall (= BrE "autumn"). I usually hear this (and would myself say it) as "The Berksheers"; perhaps that originated as or is primarily a New Yorkism. But the associated county and mountain subchain I'd say as "Berksher". (And it's "Berk", not "Bark".) I recall that when I first read Tolkien's _The Hobbit_, when I was about 9, I mispronounced "The Shire" as "The Sher". SignatureSalvatore Volatile > Hello everyone! Let me introduce myself. My name's Chris and I'm an > Englishman living in Sardinia. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > dictionary? How is it pronounced in American English? Is it New Hampshyer, > Hampsheer or Hampsher? When I lived in England, I was a "sheer" person, although I was aware of the "sher" people. Here in Australia, (for our own areas) they always get the full form "shire". In fact, we don't have counties: the only official divisions are shires, towns and cities - at least in my state. SignatureRob Bannister 31 years England 35 years Western Australia |
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